Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:08 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
2. 01:22 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman)
3. 02:57 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Kingsley Hurst)
4. 05:07 AM - Re: Electronic Mind Needed (h&jeuropa)
5. 05:44 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman)
6. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Frans Veldman)
7. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed /Problem Solved (JEFF ROBERTS)
8. 06:48 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (david miller)
9. 06:58 AM - Sensenich prop mounting (david miller)
10. 07:50 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
11. 08:12 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman)
12. 08:43 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (david miller)
13. 09:00 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman)
14. 10:14 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
15. 10:18 AM - Re: Sensenich prop mounting (JEFF ROBERTS)
16. 12:38 PM - Re: Sensenich prop mounting (david miller)
17. 12:46 PM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
18. 01:49 PM - Fuel Pump - Dual Switching (Fergus Kyle)
19. 01:49 PM - Chemical Nut-Busters (Fergus Kyle)
20. 03:58 PM - Re: Chemical Nut-Busters (Rob Housman)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
Troy=0Ayou will have less drag at cruise with flaps reflexed up. I would le
ave them alone. =0AThere are several issues affecting trim, CG for starters
, also the wide range of speed. Flaps down there is a lot of up trim needed
because the flaps are very powerful.=0AGraham, (not an expert)=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Troy Maynor <wingnut54@charter.
net>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 11 April, 2010 3:18:20
=0ASubject: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0A=0A
=0AHi All, =0A =0AOk, you know what they say about dumb questions. =0AAre m
y flaps reflexed too far (up) if I have to dial in 2 marks of nose =0Adown
trim for straight and level flight or am I thinking backwards? I =0Arechec
ked the weight and balance as well as the stabilator and anti servo limits
=0Aand they are all good. I was thinking maybe just the indicator needed ad
justing =0Abut the tabs are aligned with the stabs. and the stabs. are alig
ned =0Awith the fuselage molding, and the indicator is on zero. Not sure wh
ats going on =0Afor sure. It flies ok but if the tabs aren't aligned it can
't be clean and =0Aefficient. Any thoughts? I figure it's got to be ailero
ns or =0Aflaps.=0AHad to get back home today before I had time to =0Ainvest
igate further. Just need some reenforcing thoughts from you experts. =0ATro
=========
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
On 04/11/2010 05:10 AM, Kingsley Hurst wrote:
> In every in-flight photo I have seen of a Europa in level flight, the
> trim tabs have been noticably deflected upwards (nose down trim).
The position of the trim tab is is not an indication of nose up or nose
down trim. The idea of the trim is to offset the trim tab, so that
*consequently* the tailplane will find a new balance, negating the
offset of the trim tab. So, ideally, the trim tab will always align with
the tailplane, regardless of the trim setting.
The whole design idea must have been that the tailplane will find its
balance when it is aligned with the trim tab. Apparently however, this
balance will always be found with the trim tabs deflected upwards.
Again, this is no indication of trim. The trim determines (after
balancing out the aerodynamic forces) the position of the tailplane, and
the trim tabs will always remain in the same relative position to the
tail plane.
Playing on the ground with the tailplane and the trim tab will make this
obvious.
Frans
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
> Again, this is no indication of trim. The trim determines (after
> balancing out the aerodynamic forces) the position of the tailplane, and
> the trim tabs will always remain in the same relative position to the
> tail plane.
Hello Frans,
I'm not sure that I fully understand what you are saying.
Are you saying that for a given aircraft, if you fly at AUW with CG at its
forward limit, the trim tab will be in the same position relative to the
tailplane as when at AUW with the CG at its rearmost limit?
Cheers
Kingsley
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Mind Needed |
Jeff,
I just read your post where you are going to tie the C lead to the battery. Be
aware that the C lead not only is used to sense the battery voltage but also
powers the electronics in the regulator. If you have the C lead permanently connected
to the battery, when the engine isn't running, it will slowly discharge
the battery.
Jim Butcher
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293819#293819
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
On 04/11/2010 11:54 AM, Kingsley Hurst wrote:
>> Again, this is no indication of trim. The trim determines (after
>> balancing out the aerodynamic forces) the position of the tailplane, and
>> the trim tabs will always remain in the same relative position to the
>> tail plane.
>
> Are you saying that for a given aircraft, if you fly at AUW with CG at
> its forward limit, the trim tab will be in the same position relative to
> the tailplane as when at AUW with the CG at its rearmost limit?
Yep. You say it correctly. The trim tab will remain in the same position
relative to the tailplane at all times.
If you change the trim, you introduce imbalance, and the tailplane moves
to another position to restore the balance again, i.e. get into the same
position relative to the trim tab. It is this "balance seeking movement"
which eases the forces on the stick.
You can easily see this on the ground, as for every trim tab position
you can find a tailplane position where the trim tab lines up with the
tailplane.
In flight, the trim tab position is always in the same relative position
to the tailplane.
I always assumed that this position would be straight in line with the
tailplane, but apperently this balance is found when the trim tab is
somewhat deflected upwards...
I thought that the tail plane was supposed to be aerodynamically
neutral, but this is not so. With the trim tab deflected up, there is
more force acting upon the underside of the tailplane than on the upperside.
Anyone with an explanation for this?
Frans
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Mind Needed |
On 04/11/2010 02:06 PM, h&jeuropa wrote:
> I just read your post where you are going to tie the C lead to the
> battery. Be aware that the C lead not only is used to sense the
> battery voltage but also powers the electronics in the regulator. If
> you have the C lead permanently connected to the battery, when the
> engine isn't running, it will slowly discharge the battery.
Correct. If you want to do it this way, you need a double pole switch,
and use one pole to switch the C-lead to the battery.
In our Europa's I think it is not worth the trouble, as the cable from
the regulator to the battery is very short, and the losses are neglible.
Especially if you connect the electrical bus for the rest of the ship to
the regulator side of the cable.
Frans
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Mind Needed /Problem Solved |
Hey Guys,
I cant tell you what value I place on this resource. After reading all
the suggestions and talking to some in person, I have a new
understanding my planes electrical system.
Keep in mind I had some of the wiring done by an A&P so digging into
this problem for for me wasn't easy.
I first want to say.... PROBLEM SOLVED! It was a bad crimp connector
in line from the +b & C. After staring at this thing long enough,
reading your post and staring at the original wiring diagram it
finally dawned on me where I may have a problem. As soon as I could
check it it was there. My bird is charging again and flying great!
I took the time to rebalance the carbs and it has never ran better.
Used the new Carb-mate with the led's and man does that thing make the
job easier! By the way I have an extra carb mate if anyone is
interested.
I''m today and tomorrow trying to clear my calendar to fly her to Sun-
N-Fun.
To all those post from you guys I just want to say a very special
THANKS! Having the minds of people / experts all over the world to
pick from is a wonderful thing!
Best Regards,
Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush Charging & Flying again.
P.S. If I don't make it to Sun-N-Fun make sure you all discuss Rough
River and choose a date. Maybe one has been chosen?
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
Hi Troy,
Belated congratulations on your first flight.
I'm no expert and only have been in 2 Europas, mine and Chris Staines
mono.
Both of us need nose down trim in cruise, during my first flights, it
seemed to me that perhaps slightly less incidence on the wing
could have been used for more efficient flying, now I just accept the
fact that nose down trim is required on my aircraft.
Regards,
Dave, C-FBZI
On 10-Apr-10, at 10:18 PM, Troy Maynor wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Ok, you know what they say about dumb questions. Are my flaps
> reflexed too far (up) if I have to dial in 2 marks of nose down
> trim for straight and level flight or am I thinking backwards? I
> rechecked the weight and balance as well as the stabilator and anti
> servo limits and they are all good. I was thinking maybe just the
> indicator needed adjusting but the tabs are aligned with the stabs.
> and the stabs. are aligned with the fuselage molding, and the
> indicator is on zero. Not sure whats going on for sure. It flies ok
> but if the tabs aren't aligned it can't be clean and efficient. Any
> thoughts? I figure it's got to be ailerons or flaps.
> Had to get back home today before I had time to investigate
> further. Just need some reenforcing thoughts from you experts.
> Troy Maynor
> Europa Monowheel Classic
> Flying
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Sensenich prop mounting |
Jeff,
As you have a 912ULS and Sensenich, perhaps you can answer my dumb
question.
Took the Warp Drive off yesterday and went to install the Sensenich.
The Warp Drive hub is machined to fit the lip on the engine prop
flange, the Sensenich has a flat face on the rear of the hub.
Seems like I now need a spacer and longer bolts and longer drive
bushings - how is your prop set up?.
I can't get hold of Charley till tomorrow , needless to say this
weekend's weather would have been great for flying
Dave
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frans Veldman <fran
s@privatepilots.nl>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ACan't promise an expl
anation but what the tailplane does is balance the pitching moment of the w
ing but also the difference between the CG and the centre of lift. The CoL
moves significantly with AoA, especially with flap deflection. This is one
reason we have an all flying tail, fixed tail and elevator can't produce en
ough range for all flight conditions. Big jets are the same (well almost)
=0AGraham=0Anot an expert!=0A=0A=0AI thought that the tail plane was suppos
ed to be aerodynamically=0Aneutral, but this is not so. With the trim tab d
eflected up, there is=0Amore force acting upon the underside of the tailpla
ne than on the upperside.=0A=0AAnyone with an explanation for this?=0A=0AFr
=================
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
On 04/11/2010 04:00 PM, david miller wrote:
> Both of us need nose down trim in cruise, during my first flights, it
> seemed to me that perhaps slightly less incidence on the wing
> could have been used for more efficient flying, now I just accept the
> fact that nose down trim is required on my aircraft.
If you change the incidence of the wing, you actually change the
incidence of the fuselage. The wing remains in the same position during
flight.
Frans
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
Frans,
and the incidence of the fuselage will affect the incidence of the
tailplane.
just going back to my model aircraft days of 50 years ago so no
science on my part,
with the advent of digital levels it would have been possible to
specify 2.4 or 2.3 degrees, my feeling was that this would have
lessened the amount of down trim required.
Troy, Chris and I all have classic wings, perhaps this affects the trim.
Dave
On 11-Apr-10, at 11:12 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:
> <frans@privatepilots.nl>
>
> On 04/11/2010 04:00 PM, david miller wrote:
>
>> Both of us need nose down trim in cruise, during my first flights, it
>> seemed to me that perhaps slightly less incidence on the wing
>> could have been used for more efficient flying, now I just accept the
>> fact that nose down trim is required on my aircraft.
>
> If you change the incidence of the wing, you actually change the
> incidence of the fuselage. The wing remains in the same position
> during
> flight.
>
> Frans
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
On 04/11/2010 05:55 PM, david miller wrote:
>
> Frans,
>
> and the incidence of the fuselage will affect the incidence of the
> tailplane.
You are right.
Frans
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
"If you change the incidence of the wing, you actually change
the incidence of the fuselage. The wing remains in the same position
during flight."
This is true, just to givea visual
idea,I have a friend who raced formula V racers. Since for a
significant part of flight he was pulling a lot of gs going around pylons,
he noted that since his wings were coaxed into a much higher angle of
attack to pull those Gs, the fuse was dragging through air at less than
streamlined head on angle. He then increased angle of attack of wings to
some crazy amount that allowed fuse to be streamlined during racing. Said
it worked as planned and he went faster. During 1 G flight he said
visability over nose was outstanding!
Ron Parigoris
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Sensenich prop mounting |
HI Dave,
It's been a while but I remember using the spacer from my old prop. I
believe I had to re-drill it? Yes I had new drive bushings to cover
the depth of the spacer, and yes I needed longer bolts that I got from
ACS or Lookwood. Like you I made the change when I wanted to fly and
didn't realize the new prop needed the spacer till it was off. Don't
worry the prop in my opinion was worth the wait. I have mine set
closer to a cruse setting but still get an easy 1000 FPM at solo full
tanks, and 130KTS is the norm at 5200 RPM. I usually fly at 120 and
save the gas.
Best Regards,
Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush
On Apr 11, 2010, at 9:10 AM, david miller wrote:
> >
>
> Jeff,
>
> As you have a 912ULS and Sensenich, perhaps you can answer my dumb
> question.
> Took the Warp Drive off yesterday and went to install the Sensenich.
> The Warp Drive hub is machined to fit the lip on the engine prop
> flange, the Sensenich has a flat face on the rear of the hub.
> Seems like I now need a spacer and longer bolts and longer drive
> bushings - how is your prop set up?.
> I can't get hold of Charley till tomorrow , needless to say this
> weekend's weather would have been great for flying
>
> Dave
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Sensenich prop mounting |
Thanks Jeff,
I knew that I should not have ordered the new spinner till I had the
prop...... , will have to go back to UHS spinners and see if they
will be kind to me.
I have a spacer which can be drilled for the centre hole, if
Sensenich can't supply one.
In the meantime I've spent the day watching Katanas from the local
flying school cruise above me while I work around the yard.
Dave
Do not archive
On 11-Apr-10, at 1:15 PM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote:
>
> HI Dave,
> It's been a while but I remember using the spacer from my old prop.
> I believe I had to re-drill it? Yes I had new drive bushings to
> cover the depth of the spacer, and yes I needed longer bolts that I
> got from ACS or Lookwood. Like you I made the change when I wanted
> to fly and didn't realize the new prop needed the spacer till it
> was off. Don't worry the prop in my opinion was worth the wait. I
> have mine set closer to a cruse setting but still get an easy 1000
> FPM at solo full tanks, and 130KTS is the norm at 5200 RPM. I
> usually fly at 120 and save the gas.
> Best Regards,
>
> Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush
>
>
> On Apr 11, 2010, at 9:10 AM, david miller wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim |
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frans Veldman <fran
s@privatepilots.nl>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 11 Apri
l, 2010 16:59:05=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons
privatepilots.nl>=0ABut the tail won't move, or the wing, just the fuselage
.=0ADoes an all flying tail have an incidence at all?=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0AOn 04/11/2010 05:55 PM, david miller wrote:=0A> --> Europa-List message
posted by: david miller <loboloda@execulink.com>=0A> =0A> Frans,=0A> =0A> a
nd the incidence of the fuselage will affect the incidence of the=0A> tailp
lane.=0A=0AYou are right.=0A=0AFrans=0A=0A_=0A
Message 18
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| Subject: | Fuel Pump - Dual Switching |
Noah,
I agree with:
"I would just wire both switches in parallel so that either one can turn the
pump on, but both must be off to turn pump off. I think this would be best
and satisfy 99% of your flying needs without confusion. My $.02 worth.
Bevan",
- with the added corollary that they are wired so that UP/FORWARD is
ON, DOWN/AFT is OFF. ...just to avoid switch-position-confusion. Good
luck.
Ferg
Message 19
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| Subject: | Chemical Nut-Busters |
Have you heard of this one?:
My first jalopy was a =9137Chev deluxe (With rear seat ash trays) and
I kept snapping the right rear drive axle which was perhaps =BE=94
steel. I
could never get the nuts off because it was a great winter rust area.
I finally took it to the neighbourhood mechanic who wrenched it into
the sky and went to the First Aid kitbox on the wall. He extracted the
Iodine bottle and shot some liquid iodine into the joints and walked
away.
he came back in 20 minutes and whacked the nut with the usual ball-pein
hammer, and quietly unscrewed the nut(s).
I=92ve tried it on rust which hid the joint, and it worked 70-80%.
Anybody else heard this one? Something to do with iodine crystals.
Ferg
Message 20
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| Subject: | Chemical Nut-Busters |
Not only have I not heard of this method, I can=92t see how it works '
I hope
someone can enlighten me. The stuff in the first aid kit would very
likely
have been tincture of iodine, now out of favor, which is a mixture of
elemental iodine and either sodium iodide or potassium iodide, dissolved
in
what is essentially 100 proof vodka (half water and half ethanol).
I suspect that what really did the job was the shock treatment with the
hammer. As anyone familiar with this handy book
<http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/vw_alive_553.j
pg>
See full size image
knows, a hammer and a cold chisel work together like a poor man=92s
impact
wrench, and make it if not easy at least possible to loosen really tight
nuts and bolts.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:44 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Chemical Nut-Busters
Have you heard of this one?:
My first jalopy was a =9137Chev deluxe (With rear seat ash
trays) and
I kept snapping the right rear drive axle which was perhaps =BE=94
steel. I
could never get the nuts off because it was a great winter rust area.
I finally took it to the neighbourhood mechanic who wrenched it
into
the sky and went to the First Aid kitbox on the wall. He extracted the
Iodine bottle and shot some liquid iodine into the joints and walked
away.
he came back in 20 minutes and whacked the nut with the usual ball-pein
hammer, and quietly unscrewed the nut(s).
I=92ve tried it on rust which hid the joint, and it worked
70-80%.
Anybody else heard this one? Something to do with iodine crystals.
Ferg
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