---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/11/10: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:08 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 2. 01:22 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 3. 02:57 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Kingsley Hurst) 4. 05:07 AM - Re: Electronic Mind Needed (h&jeuropa) 5. 05:44 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 6. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Frans Veldman) 7. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed /Problem Solved (JEFF ROBERTS) 8. 06:48 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (david miller) 9. 06:58 AM - Sensenich prop mounting (david miller) 10. 07:50 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 11. 08:12 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 12. 08:43 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (david miller) 13. 09:00 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 14. 10:14 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 15. 10:18 AM - Re: Sensenich prop mounting (JEFF ROBERTS) 16. 12:38 PM - Re: Sensenich prop mounting (david miller) 17. 12:46 PM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 18. 01:49 PM - Fuel Pump - Dual Switching (Fergus Kyle) 19. 01:49 PM - Chemical Nut-Busters (Fergus Kyle) 20. 03:58 PM - Re: Chemical Nut-Busters (Rob Housman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:49 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim Troy=0Ayou will have less drag at cruise with flaps reflexed up. I would le ave them alone. =0AThere are several issues affecting trim, CG for starters , also the wide range of speed. Flaps down there is a lot of up trim needed because the flaps are very powerful.=0AGraham, (not an expert)=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0AFrom: Troy Maynor =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 11 April, 2010 3:18:20 =0ASubject: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0A=0A =0AHi All, =0A =0AOk, you know what they say about dumb questions. =0AAre m y flaps reflexed too far (up) if I have to dial in 2 marks of nose =0Adown trim for straight and level flight or am I thinking backwards? I =0Arechec ked the weight and balance as well as the stabilator and anti servo limits =0Aand they are all good. I was thinking maybe just the indicator needed ad justing =0Abut the tabs are aligned with the stabs. and the stabs. are alig ned =0Awith the fuselage molding, and the indicator is on zero. Not sure wh ats going on =0Afor sure. It flies ok but if the tabs aren't aligned it can 't be clean and =0Aefficient. Any thoughts? I figure it's got to be ailero ns or =0Aflaps.=0AHad to get back home today before I had time to =0Ainvest igate further. Just need some reenforcing thoughts from you experts. =0ATro ========= ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:46 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 04/11/2010 05:10 AM, Kingsley Hurst wrote: > In every in-flight photo I have seen of a Europa in level flight, the > trim tabs have been noticably deflected upwards (nose down trim). The position of the trim tab is is not an indication of nose up or nose down trim. The idea of the trim is to offset the trim tab, so that *consequently* the tailplane will find a new balance, negating the offset of the trim tab. So, ideally, the trim tab will always align with the tailplane, regardless of the trim setting. The whole design idea must have been that the tailplane will find its balance when it is aligned with the trim tab. Apparently however, this balance will always be found with the trim tabs deflected upwards. Again, this is no indication of trim. The trim determines (after balancing out the aerodynamic forces) the position of the tailplane, and the trim tabs will always remain in the same relative position to the tail plane. Playing on the ground with the tailplane and the trim tab will make this obvious. Frans ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:11 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim > Again, this is no indication of trim. The trim determines (after > balancing out the aerodynamic forces) the position of the tailplane, and > the trim tabs will always remain in the same relative position to the > tail plane. Hello Frans, I'm not sure that I fully understand what you are saying. Are you saying that for a given aircraft, if you fly at AUW with CG at its forward limit, the trim tab will be in the same position relative to the tailplane as when at AUW with the CG at its rearmost limit? Cheers Kingsley ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:14 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed From: "h&jeuropa" Jeff, I just read your post where you are going to tie the C lead to the battery. Be aware that the C lead not only is used to sense the battery voltage but also powers the electronics in the regulator. If you have the C lead permanently connected to the battery, when the engine isn't running, it will slowly discharge the battery. Jim Butcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293819#293819 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:44 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 04/11/2010 11:54 AM, Kingsley Hurst wrote: >> Again, this is no indication of trim. The trim determines (after >> balancing out the aerodynamic forces) the position of the tailplane, and >> the trim tabs will always remain in the same relative position to the >> tail plane. > > Are you saying that for a given aircraft, if you fly at AUW with CG at > its forward limit, the trim tab will be in the same position relative to > the tailplane as when at AUW with the CG at its rearmost limit? Yep. You say it correctly. The trim tab will remain in the same position relative to the tailplane at all times. If you change the trim, you introduce imbalance, and the tailplane moves to another position to restore the balance again, i.e. get into the same position relative to the trim tab. It is this "balance seeking movement" which eases the forces on the stick. You can easily see this on the ground, as for every trim tab position you can find a tailplane position where the trim tab lines up with the tailplane. In flight, the trim tab position is always in the same relative position to the tailplane. I always assumed that this position would be straight in line with the tailplane, but apperently this balance is found when the trim tab is somewhat deflected upwards... I thought that the tail plane was supposed to be aerodynamically neutral, but this is not so. With the trim tab deflected up, there is more force acting upon the underside of the tailplane than on the upperside. Anyone with an explanation for this? Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:52 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed On 04/11/2010 02:06 PM, h&jeuropa wrote: > I just read your post where you are going to tie the C lead to the > battery. Be aware that the C lead not only is used to sense the > battery voltage but also powers the electronics in the regulator. If > you have the C lead permanently connected to the battery, when the > engine isn't running, it will slowly discharge the battery. Correct. If you want to do it this way, you need a double pole switch, and use one pole to switch the C-lead to the battery. In our Europa's I think it is not worth the trouble, as the cable from the regulator to the battery is very short, and the losses are neglible. Especially if you connect the electrical bus for the rest of the ship to the regulator side of the cable. Frans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:41 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed /Problem Solved Hey Guys, I cant tell you what value I place on this resource. After reading all the suggestions and talking to some in person, I have a new understanding my planes electrical system. Keep in mind I had some of the wiring done by an A&P so digging into this problem for for me wasn't easy. I first want to say.... PROBLEM SOLVED! It was a bad crimp connector in line from the +b & C. After staring at this thing long enough, reading your post and staring at the original wiring diagram it finally dawned on me where I may have a problem. As soon as I could check it it was there. My bird is charging again and flying great! I took the time to rebalance the carbs and it has never ran better. Used the new Carb-mate with the led's and man does that thing make the job easier! By the way I have an extra carb mate if anyone is interested. I''m today and tomorrow trying to clear my calendar to fly her to Sun- N-Fun. To all those post from you guys I just want to say a very special THANKS! Having the minds of people / experts all over the world to pick from is a wonderful thing! Best Regards, Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush Charging & Flying again. P.S. If I don't make it to Sun-N-Fun make sure you all discuss Rough River and choose a date. Maybe one has been chosen? > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:32 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim Hi Troy, Belated congratulations on your first flight. I'm no expert and only have been in 2 Europas, mine and Chris Staines mono. Both of us need nose down trim in cruise, during my first flights, it seemed to me that perhaps slightly less incidence on the wing could have been used for more efficient flying, now I just accept the fact that nose down trim is required on my aircraft. Regards, Dave, C-FBZI On 10-Apr-10, at 10:18 PM, Troy Maynor wrote: > Hi All, > > Ok, you know what they say about dumb questions. Are my flaps > reflexed too far (up) if I have to dial in 2 marks of nose down > trim for straight and level flight or am I thinking backwards? I > rechecked the weight and balance as well as the stabilator and anti > servo limits and they are all good. I was thinking maybe just the > indicator needed adjusting but the tabs are aligned with the stabs. > and the stabs. are aligned with the fuselage molding, and the > indicator is on zero. Not sure whats going on for sure. It flies ok > but if the tabs aren't aligned it can't be clean and efficient. Any > thoughts? I figure it's got to be ailerons or flaps. > Had to get back home today before I had time to investigate > further. Just need some reenforcing thoughts from you experts. > Troy Maynor > Europa Monowheel Classic > Flying > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:36 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Europa-List: Sensenich prop mounting Jeff, As you have a 912ULS and Sensenich, perhaps you can answer my dumb question. Took the Warp Drive off yesterday and went to install the Sensenich. The Warp Drive hub is machined to fit the lip on the engine prop flange, the Sensenich has a flat face on the rear of the hub. Seems like I now need a spacer and longer bolts and longer drive bushings - how is your prop set up?. I can't get hold of Charley till tomorrow , needless to say this weekend's weather would have been great for flying Dave ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:19 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frans Veldman =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ACan't promise an expl anation but what the tailplane does is balance the pitching moment of the w ing but also the difference between the CG and the centre of lift. The CoL moves significantly with AoA, especially with flap deflection. This is one reason we have an all flying tail, fixed tail and elevator can't produce en ough range for all flight conditions. Big jets are the same (well almost) =0AGraham=0Anot an expert!=0A=0A=0AI thought that the tail plane was suppos ed to be aerodynamically=0Aneutral, but this is not so. With the trim tab d eflected up, there is=0Amore force acting upon the underside of the tailpla ne than on the upperside.=0A=0AAnyone with an explanation for this?=0A=0AFr ================= ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:41 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 04/11/2010 04:00 PM, david miller wrote: > Both of us need nose down trim in cruise, during my first flights, it > seemed to me that perhaps slightly less incidence on the wing > could have been used for more efficient flying, now I just accept the > fact that nose down trim is required on my aircraft. If you change the incidence of the wing, you actually change the incidence of the fuselage. The wing remains in the same position during flight. Frans ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:37 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim Frans, and the incidence of the fuselage will affect the incidence of the tailplane. just going back to my model aircraft days of 50 years ago so no science on my part, with the advent of digital levels it would have been possible to specify 2.4 or 2.3 degrees, my feeling was that this would have lessened the amount of down trim required. Troy, Chris and I all have classic wings, perhaps this affects the trim. Dave On 11-Apr-10, at 11:12 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > > On 04/11/2010 04:00 PM, david miller wrote: > >> Both of us need nose down trim in cruise, during my first flights, it >> seemed to me that perhaps slightly less incidence on the wing >> could have been used for more efficient flying, now I just accept the >> fact that nose down trim is required on my aircraft. > > If you change the incidence of the wing, you actually change the > incidence of the fuselage. The wing remains in the same position > during > flight. > > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:21 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 04/11/2010 05:55 PM, david miller wrote: > > Frans, > > and the incidence of the fuselage will affect the incidence of the > tailplane. You are right. Frans ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us "If you change the incidence of the wing, you actually change the incidence of the fuselage. The wing remains in the same position during flight." This is true, just to givea visual idea,I have a friend who raced formula V racers. Since for a significant part of flight he was pulling a lot of gs going around pylons, he noted that since his wings were coaxed into a much higher angle of attack to pull those Gs, the fuse was dragging through air at less than streamlined head on angle. He then increased angle of attack of wings to some crazy amount that allowed fuse to be streamlined during racing. Said it worked as planned and he went faster. During 1 G flight he said visability over nose was outstanding! Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sensenich prop mounting From: JEFF ROBERTS HI Dave, It's been a while but I remember using the spacer from my old prop. I believe I had to re-drill it? Yes I had new drive bushings to cover the depth of the spacer, and yes I needed longer bolts that I got from ACS or Lookwood. Like you I made the change when I wanted to fly and didn't realize the new prop needed the spacer till it was off. Don't worry the prop in my opinion was worth the wait. I have mine set closer to a cruse setting but still get an easy 1000 FPM at solo full tanks, and 130KTS is the norm at 5200 RPM. I usually fly at 120 and save the gas. Best Regards, Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush On Apr 11, 2010, at 9:10 AM, david miller wrote: > > > > Jeff, > > As you have a 912ULS and Sensenich, perhaps you can answer my dumb > question. > Took the Warp Drive off yesterday and went to install the Sensenich. > The Warp Drive hub is machined to fit the lip on the engine prop > flange, the Sensenich has a flat face on the rear of the hub. > Seems like I now need a spacer and longer bolts and longer drive > bushings - how is your prop set up?. > I can't get hold of Charley till tomorrow , needless to say this > weekend's weather would have been great for flying > > Dave > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:22 PM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sensenich prop mounting Thanks Jeff, I knew that I should not have ordered the new spinner till I had the prop...... , will have to go back to UHS spinners and see if they will be kind to me. I have a spacer which can be drilled for the centre hole, if Sensenich can't supply one. In the meantime I've spent the day watching Katanas from the local flying school cruise above me while I work around the yard. Dave Do not archive On 11-Apr-10, at 1:15 PM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > > HI Dave, > It's been a while but I remember using the spacer from my old prop. > I believe I had to re-drill it? Yes I had new drive bushings to > cover the depth of the spacer, and yes I needed longer bolts that I > got from ACS or Lookwood. Like you I made the change when I wanted > to fly and didn't realize the new prop needed the spacer till it > was off. Don't worry the prop in my opinion was worth the wait. I > have mine set closer to a cruse setting but still get an easy 1000 > FPM at solo full tanks, and 130KTS is the norm at 5200 RPM. I > usually fly at 120 and save the gas. > Best Regards, > > Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush > > > On Apr 11, 2010, at 9:10 AM, david miller wrote: > >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:37 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frans Veldman =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 11 Apri l, 2010 16:59:05=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons privatepilots.nl>=0ABut the tail won't move, or the wing, just the fuselage .=0ADoes an all flying tail have an incidence at all?=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A =0AOn 04/11/2010 05:55 PM, david miller wrote:=0A> --> Europa-List message posted by: david miller =0A> =0A> Frans,=0A> =0A> a nd the incidence of the fuselage will affect the incidence of the=0A> tailp lane.=0A=0AYou are right.=0A=0AFrans=0A=0A_=0A ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:38 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Pump - Dual Switching Noah, I agree with: "I would just wire both switches in parallel so that either one can turn the pump on, but both must be off to turn pump off. I think this would be best and satisfy 99% of your flying needs without confusion. My $.02 worth. Bevan", - with the added corollary that they are wired so that UP/FORWARD is ON, DOWN/AFT is OFF. ...just to avoid switch-position-confusion. Good luck. Ferg ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:38 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Chemical Nut-Busters Have you heard of this one?: My first jalopy was a =9137Chev deluxe (With rear seat ash trays) and I kept snapping the right rear drive axle which was perhaps =BE=94 steel. I could never get the nuts off because it was a great winter rust area. I finally took it to the neighbourhood mechanic who wrenched it into the sky and went to the First Aid kitbox on the wall. He extracted the Iodine bottle and shot some liquid iodine into the joints and walked away. he came back in 20 minutes and whacked the nut with the usual ball-pein hammer, and quietly unscrewed the nut(s). I=92ve tried it on rust which hid the joint, and it worked 70-80%. Anybody else heard this one? Something to do with iodine crystals. Ferg ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:07 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Chemical Nut-Busters Not only have I not heard of this method, I can=92t see how it works ' I hope someone can enlighten me. The stuff in the first aid kit would very likely have been tincture of iodine, now out of favor, which is a mixture of elemental iodine and either sodium iodide or potassium iodide, dissolved in what is essentially 100 proof vodka (half water and half ethanol). I suspect that what really did the job was the shock treatment with the hammer. As anyone familiar with this handy book See full size image knows, a hammer and a cold chisel work together like a poor man=92s impact wrench, and make it if not easy at least possible to loosen really tight nuts and bolts. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: Chemical Nut-Busters Have you heard of this one?: My first jalopy was a =9137Chev deluxe (With rear seat ash trays) and I kept snapping the right rear drive axle which was perhaps =BE=94 steel. I could never get the nuts off because it was a great winter rust area. I finally took it to the neighbourhood mechanic who wrenched it into the sky and went to the First Aid kitbox on the wall. He extracted the Iodine bottle and shot some liquid iodine into the joints and walked away. he came back in 20 minutes and whacked the nut with the usual ball-pein hammer, and quietly unscrewed the nut(s). I=92ve tried it on rust which hid the joint, and it worked 70-80%. Anybody else heard this one? Something to do with iodine crystals. 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