Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:32 AM - Ampreg 21 (Kelvin Weston)
2. 10:04 AM - Re: Ampreg 21 (flyingphil2)
3. 11:06 AM - Re: Ampreg 21 (Kelvin Weston)
4. 12:27 PM - Re: Ampreg 21 (John Heykoop)
5. 01:09 PM - Weight reduction - Brake Discs (jglazener)
6. 02:08 PM - Re: Weight reduction - Brake Discs (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
7. 02:42 PM - Volcanic dust and Rotax engines (John Wighton)
8. 03:16 PM - Re: Weight reduction - Brake Discs (Frans Veldman)
9. 03:54 PM - Re: Weight reduction - Brake Discs (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
10. 05:43 PM - Re: 2-blade props (Karl Heindl)
11. 07:43 PM - Re: Ampreg 21 (JR Gowing)
12. 10:50 PM - Re: Volcanic dust and Rotax engines (Richard Churchill-Coleman)
Message 1
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There may be a problem for UK builders using Ampreg 21.
Having noticed that the latest build manuals on the Europa website had, for some
time, listed Ampreg 21 as the supplied resin and after confirming with Martin
Armstrong at SP Systems (Gurit) that Ampreg 20 had finally been stopped, I ordered
some Ampreg 21.
As I am mid way through a project, I telephoned Andy Draper at the LAA before Easter
to find out if I needed to record in my build record that I had changed
resin types. I was quite surprised when he stated that to his knowledge, Europa
/ Swift had not contacted the LAA about the change of resin. He went on to
say that as the original testing and type approval had been approved using Ampreg
20, the LAA would need to look at the properties of Ampreg 21 to decide if
it was a suitable alternative. Although he stated that he did not foresee there
would be a problem approving the alternative resin, he left me with the impression
that it would be unwise to use it until it had been approved and suggested
that an update to the Europa TAD on the LAA website would be needed and
that I should look out for this.
Has anyone else been told this?
A telephone call to the Europa office was met with equal surprise that the LAA
were questioning the use of Ampreg 21. I telephoned Andy Draper again this week
and he stated that he had looked at the properties of both resins and had some
concerns over the glass temperature (Tg) of Ampreg 21 which fell short of
that for Ampreg 20. He went on to say that they had requested further details
from SP Systems.
I would guess that a lot of builders are already using Ampreg 21 on the basis that
it is listed in the current build manual. This could be a big problem for
UK builders, especially as it is the LAA who ultimately have to sign off the
build and issue a permit.
Have any other resins been approved for use in the UK?
--------
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294314#294314
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You are joking ...... ?
I have a huge tin of the stuff supplied by Europa just before Christmas.
Fortunately I've not done anything with it but was planning too in the next couple
of weeks.
I guess that leaves the 'West' system that is allowed in some of the mods?
Phil
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Phil
I know Europa have suggested some alternatives in previous Mod leaflets:
"acceptable alternative structural epoxy resin systems may be used. Some suitable
alternatives are Schueffler L285/H286, West Systems 105/205 and Aeropoxy PR2032/PH3660.
The use of materials other than those listed above will require approval
from Europa Aircraft."
But it might be worth checking with the LAA that they are happy. It would seem
that, in the UK anyway, they have the final say. On paper, the West system even
falls short of the Ampreg 21 in terms of properties. Andy did say that providing
the Ampreg 21 properties are within acceptable limits, it is the way to
go.
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294330#294330
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I believe I was the first UK builder to use Ampreg 21. I ran out of Ampreg
20 while doing finishing work. Europa eventually supplied me with Ampreg 21
after talking to the LAA who gave informal approval.
I suspect that someone at the LAA said it was OK to use Ampreg 21, having
been told that it was going to be used for finishing, and that Europa
misunderstood this as general approval for Ampreg 21 as a replacement for
Ampreg 20.
Like others who have reported on Ampreg 21 I was not terribly happy with the
stuff. No doubt better for the environment (and for my health), but I
preferred working with Ampreg 20.
John Heykoop
Europa XS mono G-JHKP (Kit #537)
(being painted)
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Kelvin Weston <kelv@kdweston.biz> wrote:
>
> There may be a problem for UK builders using Ampreg 21.
>
> Having noticed that the latest build manuals on the Europa website had, for
> some time, listed Ampreg 21 as the supplied resin and after confirming with
> Martin Armstrong at SP Systems (Gurit) that Ampreg 20 had finally been
> stopped, I ordered some Ampreg 21.
>
> As I am mid way through a project, I telephoned Andy Draper at the LAA
> before Easter to find out if I needed to record in my build record that I
> had changed resin types. I was quite surprised when he stated that to his
> knowledge, Europa / Swift had not contacted the LAA about the change of
> resin. He went on to say that as the original testing and type approval had
> been approved using Ampreg 20, the LAA would need to look at the properties
> of Ampreg 21 to decide if it was a suitable alternative. Although he stated
> that he did not foresee there would be a problem approving the alternative
> resin, he left me with the impression that it would be unwise to use it
> until it had been approved and suggested that an update to the Europa TAD on
> the LAA website would be needed and that I should look out for this.
>
> Has anyone else been told this?
>
> A telephone call to the Europa office was met with equal surprise that the
> LAA were questioning the use of Ampreg 21. I telephoned Andy Draper again
> this week and he stated that he had looked at the properties of both resins
> and had some concerns over the glass temperature (Tg) of Ampreg 21 which
> fell short of that for Ampreg 20. He went on to say that they had requested
> further details from SP Systems.
>
> I would guess that a lot of builders are already using Ampreg 21 on the
> basis that it is listed in the current build manual. This could be a big
> problem for UK builders, especially as it is the LAA who ultimately have to
> sign off the build and issue a permit.
>
> Have any other resins been approved for use in the UK?
>
> --------
> Regards
>
> Kelv Weston
> Kit 497
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294314#294314
>
>
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Subject: | Weight reduction - Brake Discs |
In the latest issue of Kitplanes magazine, on page 14, an example is given of drilling
holes in the brake disc to save weight. Does anyone know whether this
is possible / advisable / plain stupid on the Europa?
On the subject, a great sage at Boeing once told me that the best aviation manufacturers
are the ones who were best at making holes, ie saving weight that way.
Having worked in helicopters I remember we were looking for grams on a helicopter
that weighed many tons. I know I am constantly on the lookout, even for
little things like shaving off bolts that are too long. Is there anyone who
has compiled a list of clever things that you can do on a Europa in this regard?
Jeroen G
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294347#294347
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Subject: | Re: Weight reduction - Brake Discs |
Hi Jeroen
"In the latest issue of Kitplanes magazine, on page
14, an example is given of drilling holes in the brake disc to save
weight. Does anyone knowwhether this is possible / advisable / plain
stupid on the Europa?"
I didn't yet see the article,
but>>>>>>>I shoehorned a 60HP YTZ250 motor in a YZ80
frame. To handle the extra speed and weight i put the discs from the YTZ
onto the ZY. The front disc was drilled, but theback was not.
Happened to be same diameter so i used the front as a drill jig and
started to drill, and drill and drill and drill, etc. etc. etc. etc. I own
a professional Darex drill sharpenerand it got a nice workout. Then
once you drill all the holes you get to deburr both sides. Many hours of
work,I forget the weight savings and it was not worth it. I don't
see why you couldn't drill disc, not worth it doing 1 hole at a time with
drill press. With a CNC perhaps.
Some weight savings ideas:
Aft
mounted battery if you are tending nose heavy
Aluminium with copper
clad cable
Odyssey PC545 battery instead of 680
Monowheel over
tri
No interior
Light panel
Go light on fill and paint on
bottom of plane
Go on a mini diet
Ron Parigoris
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Subject: | Volcanic dust and Rotax engines |
Hi chaps,
Looking for some advice on flying my Europa tomorrow (16th April), planning
on a trip Essex to Cosford. The whole of UK airspace is shut down to
commercial jet traffic, what is the opinion on flight our puddle jumpers?
The dust consists of silica which are very abrasive. Will these be stopped
by the air filter?
John Wighton
Europa XS 573 G-IPOD
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Subject: | Re: Weight reduction - Brake Discs |
On 04/15/2010 10:09 PM, jglazener wrote:
> we were looking for grams on a helicopter that weighed many tons.
> I am constantly on the lookout, even for little things like shaving
> off bolts that are too long. Is there anyone who has compiled a list
> of clever things that you can do on a Europa in this regard?
The biggest weight savings can be found by trimming the pilot.
1) Make sure to go to the toilet before commencing flight.
2) Get a haircut. Shave yourself. We're talking about grams, remember?
3) Dress light. Just swimming trousers can be sufficient during the
summer. No boots but open shoes, or maybe no shoes at all.
4) Swap your headset for a clarity aloft or alike light weight headset.
5) Don't eat or drink before you fly.
6) And the most important one: Get on a diet. For the avarage pilot it
is easily possible to shed 10 Kg's of weight, without adverse effects on
health (often quite the opposite).
10 Kg's!!! How much effort do you have to do to save this by shaving off
bolts and dremeling off spoilt epoxy?
On a more serious note: Fly the airplane more efficiently. Often a few
knots less speed will get you at your destination with 10Kgs less fuel
needed. ;-)
Get a two blade prop. One blade of a CS prop is 4Kg's worth. Apart from
that, it cruises more efficiently, cutting down on fuel (read: weight).
Get a second alternator. Now you can save on your batteries, because you
only need them for starting, not for redundancy during flight. My Rotax
914 starts easily multiple times on a small Odyssey 310.
Frans
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Subject: | Re: Weight reduction - Brake Discs |
Frans=0Ain theory only is a 2 blade more efficient, you get more vibration
that can't be balanced out. More vibration gives more disruption to laminar
flow so more drag.=0AThis is also why 2 blade windmills are more likely to
throw blades. 2 blades don't cope with non axial air flow, multi blades do
=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frans Veld
man <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursd
ay, 15 April, 2010 23:14:32=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Weight reduction -
Brake Discs=0A=0A=0A=0AGet a two blade prop. One blade of a CS prop is 4Kg'
s worth. Apart from=0Athat, it cruises more efficiently, cutting down on fu
el (read: weight).=0A=0AFrans
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Graham=2C
I am shure you are correct=2C but in my experience I have not noticed more
vibration=2C once the carbs ar well balanced.
Advantages are - less weight=2C less money=2C less maintenance=2C easier
to balance=2C easier to ship in one piece=2C better visibility when feather
ed on MG=2C less drag=2C and bottom cowling comes off easily=2C without hav
ing to remove tailpipe etc.
Why do most GA aircraft have 2-blade props ?
Karl
From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight reduction - Brake Discs
Frans
in theory only is a 2 blade more efficient=2C you get more vibration that c
an't be balanced out. More vibration gives more disruption to laminar flow
so more drag.
This is also why 2 blade windmills are more likely to throw blades. 2 blade
s don't cope with non axial air flow=2C multi blades do
Graham
From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
Sent: Thursday=2C 15 April=2C 2010 23:14:32
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight reduction - Brake Discs
Get a two blade prop. One blade of a CS prop is 4Kg's worth. Apart from
that=2C it cruises more efficiently=2C cutting down on fuel (read: weight).
Frans
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John and all I had run out of good hardener and could not get more when the
Ampreg stopped -
Hence had to dispose of about 10 containers!
Didn't like that!
JR (Bob) Gowing 327 in Oz
----- Original Message -----
From: John Heykoop
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ampreg 21
I believe I was the first UK builder to use Ampreg 21. I ran out of Ampre
g 20 while doing finishing work. Europa eventually supplied me with Ampreg
21 after talking to the LAA who gave informal approval.
I suspect that someone at the LAA said it was OK to use Ampreg 21, having
been told that it was going to be used for finishing, and that Europa misu
nderstood this as general approval for Ampreg 21 as a replacement for Ampre
g 20.
Like others who have reported on Ampreg 21 I was not terribly happy with
the stuff. No doubt better for the environment (and for my health), but I p
referred working with Ampreg 20.
John Heykoop
Europa XS mono G-JHKP (Kit #537)
(being painted)
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Kelvin Weston <kelv@kdweston.biz> wrote:
There may be a problem for UK builders using Ampreg 21.
Having noticed that the latest build manuals on the Europa website had,
for some time, listed Ampreg 21 as the supplied resin and after confirming
with Martin Armstrong at SP Systems (Gurit) that Ampreg 20 had finally bee
n stopped, I ordered some Ampreg 21.
As I am mid way through a project, I telephoned Andy Draper at the LAA
before Easter to find out if I needed to record in my build record that I h
ad changed resin types. I was quite surprised when he stated that to his k
nowledge, Europa / Swift had not contacted the LAA about the change of resi
n. He went on to say that as the original testing and type approval had be
en approved using Ampreg 20, the LAA would need to look at the properties o
f Ampreg 21 to decide if it was a suitable alternative. Although he stated
that he did not foresee there would be a problem approving the alternative
resin, he left me with the impression that it would be unwise to use it un
til it had been approved and suggested that an update to the Europa TAD on
the LAA website would be needed and that I should look out for this.
Has anyone else been told this=3F
A telephone call to the Europa office was met with equal surprise that
the LAA were questioning the use of Ampreg 21. I telephoned Andy Draper ag
ain this week and he stated that he had looked at the properties of both re
sins and had some concerns over the glass temperature (Tg) of Ampreg 21 whi
ch fell short of that for Ampreg 20. He went on to say that they had reque
sted further details from SP Systems.
I would guess that a lot of builders are already using Ampreg 21 on the
basis that it is listed in the current build manual. This could be a big
problem for UK builders, especially as it is the LAA who ultimately have to
sign off the build and issue a permit.
Have any other resins been approved for use in the UK=3F
--------
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php=3Fp=294314#294314
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Subject: | Volcanic dust and Rotax engines |
John
Check your NOTAMS - CAA have issued one to all traffic requiring a flight
safety evaluation before flight in conjunction with SRG. The story for the
moment is really, don't fly unless you have a safety of life reason to do
so.
Best
Richard C-C
912S XS G-RPCC
(General Counsel NATS)
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Wighton
Sent: 15 April 2010 22:34
Subject: Europa-List: Volcanic dust and Rotax engines
Hi chaps,
Looking for some advice on flying my Europa tomorrow (16th April), planning
on a trip Essex to Cosford. The whole of UK airspace is shut down to
commercial jet traffic, what is the opinion on flight our puddle jumpers?
The dust consists of silica which are very abrasive. Will these be stopped
by the air filter?
John Wighton
Europa XS 573 G-IPOD
07:31:00
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