---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/15/10: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:32 AM - Ampreg 21 (Kelvin Weston) 2. 10:04 AM - Re: Ampreg 21 (flyingphil2) 3. 11:06 AM - Re: Ampreg 21 (Kelvin Weston) 4. 12:27 PM - Re: Ampreg 21 (John Heykoop) 5. 01:09 PM - Weight reduction - Brake Discs (jglazener) 6. 02:08 PM - Re: Weight reduction - Brake Discs (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 7. 02:42 PM - Volcanic dust and Rotax engines (John Wighton) 8. 03:16 PM - Re: Weight reduction - Brake Discs (Frans Veldman) 9. 03:54 PM - Re: Weight reduction - Brake Discs (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 10. 05:43 PM - Re: 2-blade props (Karl Heindl) 11. 07:43 PM - Re: Ampreg 21 (JR Gowing) 12. 10:50 PM - Re: Volcanic dust and Rotax engines (Richard Churchill-Coleman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:36 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Ampreg 21 From: "Kelvin Weston" There may be a problem for UK builders using Ampreg 21. Having noticed that the latest build manuals on the Europa website had, for some time, listed Ampreg 21 as the supplied resin and after confirming with Martin Armstrong at SP Systems (Gurit) that Ampreg 20 had finally been stopped, I ordered some Ampreg 21. As I am mid way through a project, I telephoned Andy Draper at the LAA before Easter to find out if I needed to record in my build record that I had changed resin types. I was quite surprised when he stated that to his knowledge, Europa / Swift had not contacted the LAA about the change of resin. He went on to say that as the original testing and type approval had been approved using Ampreg 20, the LAA would need to look at the properties of Ampreg 21 to decide if it was a suitable alternative. Although he stated that he did not foresee there would be a problem approving the alternative resin, he left me with the impression that it would be unwise to use it until it had been approved and suggested that an update to the Europa TAD on the LAA website would be needed and that I should look out for this. Has anyone else been told this? A telephone call to the Europa office was met with equal surprise that the LAA were questioning the use of Ampreg 21. I telephoned Andy Draper again this week and he stated that he had looked at the properties of both resins and had some concerns over the glass temperature (Tg) of Ampreg 21 which fell short of that for Ampreg 20. He went on to say that they had requested further details from SP Systems. I would guess that a lot of builders are already using Ampreg 21 on the basis that it is listed in the current build manual. This could be a big problem for UK builders, especially as it is the LAA who ultimately have to sign off the build and issue a permit. Have any other resins been approved for use in the UK? -------- Regards Kelv Weston Kit 497 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294314#294314 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:47 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Ampreg 21 From: "flyingphil2" You are joking ...... ? I have a huge tin of the stuff supplied by Europa just before Christmas. Fortunately I've not done anything with it but was planning too in the next couple of weeks. I guess that leaves the 'West' system that is allowed in some of the mods? Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294321#294321 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:46 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Ampreg 21 From: "Kelvin Weston" Phil I know Europa have suggested some alternatives in previous Mod leaflets: "acceptable alternative structural epoxy resin systems may be used. Some suitable alternatives are Schueffler L285/H286, West Systems 105/205 and Aeropoxy PR2032/PH3660. The use of materials other than those listed above will require approval from Europa Aircraft." But it might be worth checking with the LAA that they are happy. It would seem that, in the UK anyway, they have the final say. On paper, the West system even falls short of the Ampreg 21 in terms of properties. Andy did say that providing the Ampreg 21 properties are within acceptable limits, it is the way to go. Regards Kelv Weston Kit 497 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294330#294330 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ampreg 21 From: John Heykoop I believe I was the first UK builder to use Ampreg 21. I ran out of Ampreg 20 while doing finishing work. Europa eventually supplied me with Ampreg 21 after talking to the LAA who gave informal approval. I suspect that someone at the LAA said it was OK to use Ampreg 21, having been told that it was going to be used for finishing, and that Europa misunderstood this as general approval for Ampreg 21 as a replacement for Ampreg 20. Like others who have reported on Ampreg 21 I was not terribly happy with the stuff. No doubt better for the environment (and for my health), but I preferred working with Ampreg 20. John Heykoop Europa XS mono G-JHKP (Kit #537) (being painted) On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Kelvin Weston wrote: > > There may be a problem for UK builders using Ampreg 21. > > Having noticed that the latest build manuals on the Europa website had, for > some time, listed Ampreg 21 as the supplied resin and after confirming with > Martin Armstrong at SP Systems (Gurit) that Ampreg 20 had finally been > stopped, I ordered some Ampreg 21. > > As I am mid way through a project, I telephoned Andy Draper at the LAA > before Easter to find out if I needed to record in my build record that I > had changed resin types. I was quite surprised when he stated that to his > knowledge, Europa / Swift had not contacted the LAA about the change of > resin. He went on to say that as the original testing and type approval had > been approved using Ampreg 20, the LAA would need to look at the properties > of Ampreg 21 to decide if it was a suitable alternative. Although he stated > that he did not foresee there would be a problem approving the alternative > resin, he left me with the impression that it would be unwise to use it > until it had been approved and suggested that an update to the Europa TAD on > the LAA website would be needed and that I should look out for this. > > Has anyone else been told this? > > A telephone call to the Europa office was met with equal surprise that the > LAA were questioning the use of Ampreg 21. I telephoned Andy Draper again > this week and he stated that he had looked at the properties of both resins > and had some concerns over the glass temperature (Tg) of Ampreg 21 which > fell short of that for Ampreg 20. He went on to say that they had requested > further details from SP Systems. > > I would guess that a lot of builders are already using Ampreg 21 on the > basis that it is listed in the current build manual. This could be a big > problem for UK builders, especially as it is the LAA who ultimately have to > sign off the build and issue a permit. > > Have any other resins been approved for use in the UK? > > -------- > Regards > > Kelv Weston > Kit 497 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294314#294314 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:59 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Weight reduction - Brake Discs From: "jglazener" In the latest issue of Kitplanes magazine, on page 14, an example is given of drilling holes in the brake disc to save weight. Does anyone know whether this is possible / advisable / plain stupid on the Europa? On the subject, a great sage at Boeing once told me that the best aviation manufacturers are the ones who were best at making holes, ie saving weight that way. Having worked in helicopters I remember we were looking for grams on a helicopter that weighed many tons. I know I am constantly on the lookout, even for little things like shaving off bolts that are too long. Is there anyone who has compiled a list of clever things that you can do on a Europa in this regard? Jeroen G Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294347#294347 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight reduction - Brake Discs From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Jeroen "In the latest issue of Kitplanes magazine, on page 14, an example is given of drilling holes in the brake disc to save weight. Does anyone knowwhether this is possible / advisable / plain stupid on the Europa?" I didn't yet see the article, but>>>>>>>I shoehorned a 60HP YTZ250 motor in a YZ80 frame. To handle the extra speed and weight i put the discs from the YTZ onto the ZY. The front disc was drilled, but theback was not. Happened to be same diameter so i used the front as a drill jig and started to drill, and drill and drill and drill, etc. etc. etc. etc. I own a professional Darex drill sharpenerand it got a nice workout. Then once you drill all the holes you get to deburr both sides. Many hours of work,I forget the weight savings and it was not worth it. I don't see why you couldn't drill disc, not worth it doing 1 hole at a time with drill press. With a CNC perhaps. Some weight savings ideas: Aft mounted battery if you are tending nose heavy Aluminium with copper clad cable Odyssey PC545 battery instead of 680 Monowheel over tri No interior Light panel Go light on fill and paint on bottom of plane Go on a mini diet Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:00 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Volcanic dust and Rotax engines From: John Wighton Hi chaps, Looking for some advice on flying my Europa tomorrow (16th April), planning on a trip Essex to Cosford. The whole of UK airspace is shut down to commercial jet traffic, what is the opinion on flight our puddle jumpers? The dust consists of silica which are very abrasive. Will these be stopped by the air filter? John Wighton Europa XS 573 G-IPOD ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:07 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight reduction - Brake Discs On 04/15/2010 10:09 PM, jglazener wrote: > we were looking for grams on a helicopter that weighed many tons. > I am constantly on the lookout, even for little things like shaving > off bolts that are too long. Is there anyone who has compiled a list > of clever things that you can do on a Europa in this regard? The biggest weight savings can be found by trimming the pilot. 1) Make sure to go to the toilet before commencing flight. 2) Get a haircut. Shave yourself. We're talking about grams, remember? 3) Dress light. Just swimming trousers can be sufficient during the summer. No boots but open shoes, or maybe no shoes at all. 4) Swap your headset for a clarity aloft or alike light weight headset. 5) Don't eat or drink before you fly. 6) And the most important one: Get on a diet. For the avarage pilot it is easily possible to shed 10 Kg's of weight, without adverse effects on health (often quite the opposite). 10 Kg's!!! How much effort do you have to do to save this by shaving off bolts and dremeling off spoilt epoxy? On a more serious note: Fly the airplane more efficiently. Often a few knots less speed will get you at your destination with 10Kgs less fuel needed. ;-) Get a two blade prop. One blade of a CS prop is 4Kg's worth. Apart from that, it cruises more efficiently, cutting down on fuel (read: weight). Get a second alternator. Now you can save on your batteries, because you only need them for starting, not for redundancy during flight. My Rotax 914 starts easily multiple times on a small Odyssey 310. Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:41 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight reduction - Brake Discs Frans=0Ain theory only is a 2 blade more efficient, you get more vibration that can't be balanced out. More vibration gives more disruption to laminar flow so more drag.=0AThis is also why 2 blade windmills are more likely to throw blades. 2 blades don't cope with non axial air flow, multi blades do =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frans Veld man =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursd ay, 15 April, 2010 23:14:32=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Weight reduction - Brake Discs=0A=0A=0A=0AGet a two blade prop. One blade of a CS prop is 4Kg' s worth. Apart from=0Athat, it cruises more efficiently, cutting down on fu el (read: weight).=0A=0AFrans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:55 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: 2-blade props Graham=2C I am shure you are correct=2C but in my experience I have not noticed more vibration=2C once the carbs ar well balanced. Advantages are - less weight=2C less money=2C less maintenance=2C easier to balance=2C easier to ship in one piece=2C better visibility when feather ed on MG=2C less drag=2C and bottom cowling comes off easily=2C without hav ing to remove tailpipe etc. Why do most GA aircraft have 2-blade props ? Karl From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight reduction - Brake Discs Frans in theory only is a 2 blade more efficient=2C you get more vibration that c an't be balanced out. More vibration gives more disruption to laminar flow so more drag. This is also why 2 blade windmills are more likely to throw blades. 2 blade s don't cope with non axial air flow=2C multi blades do Graham From: Frans Veldman Sent: Thursday=2C 15 April=2C 2010 23:14:32 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight reduction - Brake Discs Get a two blade prop. One blade of a CS prop is 4Kg's worth. Apart from that=2C it cruises more efficiently=2C cutting down on fuel (read: weight). Frans ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:58 PM PST US From: "JR Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ampreg 21 John and all I had run out of good hardener and could not get more when the Ampreg stopped - Hence had to dispose of about 10 containers! Didn't like that! JR (Bob) Gowing 327 in Oz ----- Original Message ----- From: John Heykoop To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 5:21 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ampreg 21 I believe I was the first UK builder to use Ampreg 21. I ran out of Ampre g 20 while doing finishing work. Europa eventually supplied me with Ampreg 21 after talking to the LAA who gave informal approval. I suspect that someone at the LAA said it was OK to use Ampreg 21, having been told that it was going to be used for finishing, and that Europa misu nderstood this as general approval for Ampreg 21 as a replacement for Ampre g 20. Like others who have reported on Ampreg 21 I was not terribly happy with the stuff. No doubt better for the environment (and for my health), but I p referred working with Ampreg 20. John Heykoop Europa XS mono G-JHKP (Kit #537) (being painted) On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Kelvin Weston wrote: There may be a problem for UK builders using Ampreg 21. Having noticed that the latest build manuals on the Europa website had, for some time, listed Ampreg 21 as the supplied resin and after confirming with Martin Armstrong at SP Systems (Gurit) that Ampreg 20 had finally bee n stopped, I ordered some Ampreg 21. As I am mid way through a project, I telephoned Andy Draper at the LAA before Easter to find out if I needed to record in my build record that I h ad changed resin types. I was quite surprised when he stated that to his k nowledge, Europa / Swift had not contacted the LAA about the change of resi n. He went on to say that as the original testing and type approval had be en approved using Ampreg 20, the LAA would need to look at the properties o f Ampreg 21 to decide if it was a suitable alternative. Although he stated that he did not foresee there would be a problem approving the alternative resin, he left me with the impression that it would be unwise to use it un til it had been approved and suggested that an update to the Europa TAD on the LAA website would be needed and that I should look out for this. Has anyone else been told this=3F A telephone call to the Europa office was met with equal surprise that the LAA were questioning the use of Ampreg 21. I telephoned Andy Draper ag ain this week and he stated that he had looked at the properties of both re sins and had some concerns over the glass temperature (Tg) of Ampreg 21 whi ch fell short of that for Ampreg 20. He went on to say that they had reque sted further details from SP Systems. I would guess that a lot of builders are already using Ampreg 21 on the basis that it is listed in the current build manual. This could be a big problem for UK builders, especially as it is the LAA who ultimately have to sign off the build and issue a permit. Have any other resins been approved for use in the UK=3F -------- Regards Kelv Weston Kit 497 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php=3Fp=294314#294314 ========== target==22=5Fblank=22>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator=3FEuropa-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ==22=5Fblank=22>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - The Europa-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator=3FEuropa-List =5F- =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =5F- =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F- =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - List Contribution Web Site - =5F-= Thank you for your generous support! =5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =5F-=========================================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 18:31:00 -- We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:30 PM PST US From: "Richard Churchill-Coleman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Volcanic dust and Rotax engines John Check your NOTAMS - CAA have issued one to all traffic requiring a flight safety evaluation before flight in conjunction with SRG. The story for the moment is really, don't fly unless you have a safety of life reason to do so. Best Richard C-C 912S XS G-RPCC (General Counsel NATS) _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Wighton Sent: 15 April 2010 22:34 Subject: Europa-List: Volcanic dust and Rotax engines Hi chaps, Looking for some advice on flying my Europa tomorrow (16th April), planning on a trip Essex to Cosford. The whole of UK airspace is shut down to commercial jet traffic, what is the opinion on flight our puddle jumpers? The dust consists of silica which are very abrasive. Will these be stopped by the air filter? John Wighton Europa XS 573 G-IPOD 07:31:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.