---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/23/10: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:40 AM - Rotax Radiator Cap (Moore, Dave) 2. 12:49 AM - Re: Rotax Radiator Cap (Mike Parkin) 3. 01:04 AM - Re: Rotax Radiator Cap (Kevin Challis) 4. 03:05 AM - Rotax Radiator Cap (Moore, Dave) 5. 03:25 AM - Rotax carb choke problem (Frans Veldman) 6. 05:08 AM - Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. (rampil) 7. 05:41 AM - Re: Rotax Radiator Cap (peter.rees01@tiscali.co.uk) 8. 05:47 AM - Europa "Off the air" (tonyrenshaw268@optusnet.com.au) 9. 06:08 AM - Re: Rotax carb choke problem (Bob Borger) 10. 08:21 AM - Re: Europa "Off the air" (Pete Lawless) 11. 09:07 AM - Re: Rotax carb choke problem (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 12. 09:09 AM - Re: Rotax carb choke problem (Frans Veldman) 13. 09:40 AM - Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. (rparigoris) 14. 09:49 AM - Day VMC only (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 15. 10:53 AM - Re: Day VMC only (Jeff B) 16. 12:31 PM - prices from swift (graeme bird) 17. 01:07 PM - Re: prices from swift (Steven Pitt) 18. 01:43 PM - Re: Day VMC only (Pete Lawless) 19. 01:43 PM - Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. (rampil) 20. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. (Jeff B) 21. 02:57 PM - Re: Day VMC only (Paul McAllister) 22. 03:01 PM - Re: Day VMC only (Jeff B) 23. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. (Frans Veldman) 24. 05:01 PM - Re: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 25. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. (Bud Yerly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:31 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Rotax Radiator Cap From: "Moore, Dave" Hi, Might anyone out there in UK-Europa-world have a spare 1.2 Atm (18 psi) radiator cap for a 912/914 that they'd be willing to sell to me.?? (i.e. the one required for a 50:50 water glycol mix) Alternatively, any suggestion for a retail source - at a reasonable price. (I've Googled without success...) Regards, Dave Moore Monowheel #550 Aberdeen AB11 5DX ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:35 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax Radiator Cap Dave, Sit down before you go to http://www.skydrive.co.uk/products.asp?cat=94. Regards, Mike Do Not Archive From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moore, Dave Sent: 23 April 2010 08:40 Subject: Europa-List: Rotax Radiator Cap Hi, Might anyone out there in UK-Europa-world have a spare 1.2 Atm (18 psi) radiator cap for a 912/914 that they'd be willing to sell to me.?? (i.e. the one required for a 50:50 water glycol mix) Alternatively, any suggestion for a retail source - at a reasonable price. (I've Googled without success.) Regards, Dave Moore Monowheel #550 Aberdeen AB11 5DX Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07:31:00 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:13 AM PST US From: Kevin Challis Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax Radiator Cap What type of gold do rotax use to make this rad cap? Kevin Challis On 23 Apr 2010, at 08:48, "Mike Parkin" wrote: > Dave, > > > Sit down before you go to http://www.skydrive.co.uk/products.asp?cat=94 > . > > > Regards, > > > Mike > > > Do Not Archive > > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moore, Dave > Sent: 23 April 2010 08:40 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Rotax Radiator Cap > > > Hi, > > Might anyone out there in UK-Europa-world have a spare 1.2 Atm (18 > psi) radiator cap for a 912/914 that they'd be willing to sell to > me.?? (i.e. the one required for a 50:50 water glycol mix) > > Alternatively, any suggestion for a retail source - at a reasonable > price. (I've Googled without success) > > Regards, > > Dave Moore > > Monowheel #550 > Aberdeen AB11 5DX > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 07:31:00 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:38 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Rotax Radiator Cap From: "Moore, Dave" Ah ha...! Now you'll understand why my request has popped up on the forum.! And my "at a reasonable price" comment. (Standard car rad caps are 10-15 UK Pounds. I've found lots of 14-16 psi, even a 20 psi cap. Not a sight of an 18 psi (1.2 Atm) cap yet...) If this avenue fails, I'll have to bite the bullet and dig deep - yet again....! Thanks for the reply. Cheers, Dave Dave Moore Monowheel #550 Aberdeen AB11 5DX ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:16 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Rotax carb choke problem Gentlemen, Recently, after a few months of winter inactivity, the starboard carb was flooding. I took the carb out, cleaned the bowl and float valve, and put the carb back in. Problem solved. Except... I have cold start issues since then. It appears that the choke of this carb is since this time no longer working. At a cold start, the engine appears to run on two cylinders for a while (confirmed by the EGT: only cylinders 2 and 4 produce heat), and if I manage to get the engine running without choke so I can throttle up, then cylinders 1 and 3 finally join the party. After that, the engine runs normally. I just checked the carb balancing (mechanically and pneumatically) and the setup is perfect. The carbs open and close at the same time, and manifold pressures of both manifolds is perfectly equal. Starting if the engine is somewhat warm (without choke) is perfect as well. The problem is definitely choke related: it appears to me that the choke is not working at all. (And yes, the choke cable is attached, and confirmed to fully open the choke if I pull the knob). Before I go through a time consuming trouble shooting and disassembly of the carb, has anyone an idea what this can be? The problem started when I disassembled the carb, but I haven't messed with the choke or any inards above the float bowl. Any ideas appreciated! Thanks, Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:34 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. From: "rampil" Hi Ron, Two notes of caution since your design probably won't be tested for several years to come. 1) Sucking air from a plenum is not as effective at cooling as a duct- directed push of cooling air at the radios. This is what commercial installations do. 2) The number of calories generated by your solid state radios, even if optimally harvested and blown against the windscreen will have a marginal effect on condensation unless you concentrate the blast against a small spot. Your fan placement has the warm air widely separated and sourcing what is probably 4-5" from the plexi. With turbulent flow from the fans, I suspect you will not get much heat effect although you might increase evaporation just by moving air. Regards, -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295381#295381 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:26 AM PST US From: "peter.rees01@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax Radiator Cap You could try Lisa at Redair - (01952463949) she was very helpful when I was trying to get a replacement Pierbourg pump. Peter ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:55 AM PST US From: tonyrenshaw268@optusnet.com.au Subject: Europa-List: Europa "Off the air" Gidday, I am having a lot of trouble getting in contact with Europa regarding parts not supplied with my FWF kit. I am wondering if anyone else has had them "go off the air" before? I do know they had problems before, but I can't get any e-mail response whatsoever, for the best part of two weeks now. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:47 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax carb choke problem Frans, My first guess... If you had the float bowl off, check to make sure that the little hole down in the corner and associated plumbing in that corner is clear. http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=64633 I'm not sure if you are aware, but the "Choke" isn't really a choke in the classic sense. Pulling the "Choke" cable rotates a set of valves in the carb which enable a small enriching carb. The enriching carb receives its fuel from the float bowl through that small hole and associated plumbing. You will also want to make sure the associated plumbing is clear. http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=64636 and the brass pipe that you see sticking down out of the carb and which goes into the float bowl. http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=64639 There may be some sort of blockage in that system preventing fuel flow to the enriching carb Hope this helps and you can get back to flying your time machine. Best regards, Bob Borger ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:07 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa "Off the air" Tony I have just spoken to Europa and they tell me they have replied to you today. It seems the girl you were emailing is off on compassionate leave and nothing got done. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tonyrenshaw268@optusnet.com.au Sent: 23 April 2010 13:48 Subject: Europa-List: Europa "Off the air" Gidday, I am having a lot of trouble getting in contact with Europa regarding parts not supplied with my FWF kit. I am wondering if anyone else has had them "go off the air" before? I do know they had problems before, but I can't get any e-mail response whatsoever, for the best part of two weeks now. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:20 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax carb choke problem From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Frans "At a cold start, the engine appears to run on two cylinders for a while (confirmed by the EGT: only cylinders 2 and 4 produce heat). Any ideas appreciated!" I agree with Bob, check very careful the enriching circuit passage on the bottom of the float bowl. I have a BMW R-100GS with type 64 carbsand these are the first things to get "carb snot" when it sits for a while. Not the easiest thing to clean, you have to go out of your way to make sure they are completly free. BTW best replace the float bowl gasket, if they leak on a 914 you can leak out airbox pressure faster than it can come in, hence run out of fuelor at least lean when you boost. The carbs are a pain to take off on the R100GS. If out on a trip if you discover that engine won't start because it got colder than normal in the morning, it isn't easy to hand choke. Blowing into the float bowl vent "primes" enough to get started. The 914 is a little harder to get to vent but if you were stuck somewhere and couldn't or didn't want to disassemble carbs could probably get you going if enrichment circuit failed. Best have a fire extinguisher handy if you do so. Good Luck Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:50 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax carb choke problem On 04/23/2010 03:07 PM, Bob Borger wrote: > If you had the float bowl off, check to make sure that the little hole down in the corner and associated plumbing in that corner is clear. Ok, this makes sense. I will take the carb out again as soon as I know for sure that we are not going to fly. ;-) And then check that this little hole is still open. > I'm not sure if you are aware, but the "Choke" isn't really a choke in the classic sense. Pulling the "Choke" cable rotates a set of valves in the carb which enable a small enriching carb. The enriching carb receives its fuel from the float bowl through that small hole and associated plumbing. Ah. I was wondering about that. Noticed on the schematic that there is a "start jet" and I presume this is also something I need to check to get the choke working again. > There may be some sort of blockage in that system preventing fuel flow to the enriching carb I think you are right. Thanks for the info! Frans ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:28 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. From: "rparigoris" Hi Ira Thx. for the reply. How are you cooling your radio, transponder and EFIS? I agree that a Cyclone style fan is more efficient at cooling a devise than removing the stratified/rarefied air that gets stuck at the top of instrument module (mine is flush to firewall). It is also more complicated and makes for more plumbing. See: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=78355 Quite a few folks that have computer fans at top of instrument module say that demisting is quite effective. I fooled with the fans I am using in my car, I chose a night where windscreen was fogging and put two fans about same spacing from window and width spacing as they will be in Europa. If I added defrost heat with car air conditioning blowing it clears up fog right away, but only small fans even on low (series) did clear up enough to see through. I have 2 fans situated over com radio and transponder, and 2 fans over Dynon. I forget the temperature at which the Dynon quits, but figure best not have it happen in flight when you need it. It is not only radio, transponder and Dynon heat that needs to be dealt with, it is also heat that is given off from firewall/footwells. When testing fans I put a piece of clear plastic on firewall side of instrument module to replicate firewall and ducted convected heat from two 1500 watt electric/oil heaters (set on high) inside instrument module. After a few minutes could get inside temp to ~ 140F with fans not running (but there are gaps). Turning fans even on low reduced temps quickly. I have a temperature sender inside instrument module so I can monitor temps. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295417#295417 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:14 AM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: Europa-List: Day VMC only For over a year EAA Chapter 573 Norway has tried in vain to get our CAA to revise their decision 18 months ago to restrict flight with Experimental aircraft to only day VMC (i.e. no flying at night or in IMC, regardless of the individual aircraft's instrumentation, lights or the pilot's qualifications). EAA 573 is, however, not a directly affected party, so they cannot appeal this decision. I therefore decided to file a protest to the Department of Transportation for the ruling against my aircraft, as a test case which could decide the future for all such aircraft in Norway. At long last, the CAA has now brought my appeal before the DoT for decision. Their only argument, which I think is a very meek one, is "our professional opinion - at a general level". What does that mean??!! I have the opportunity to comment the statements made by the CAA in their presentation of the case. I therefore ask all of you, in the different countries around the world, kindly to give me feedback on the following, at your early convenience: In your country, with respect to Experimental class aircraft (in some European countries referred to as Annex II aircraft): - Is night flight permitted, provided the aircraft has the required lamps and lights? - Is flying under IMC permitted, provided the aircraft has the required instrumentation? - Approximately how many aircraft (Experimental/Annex II) are flying in your country (not limited to night/IMC-equipped/instrumented), i.e. total fleet of homebuilt aircraft? For my British friends: Some time ago your organization (I do not recall its name) was preparing an appeal against a similar decision by your authorities. Did you succeed, or where does this issue stand at the moment? Thank you! Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:38 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Day VMC only Svein, Here in the USA, all is permitted and there are thousands of homebuilts, here. Many flying IMC and nighttime. Good luck in your quest. Jeff - Baby Blue 500+ hours On 4/23/2010 11:48 AM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote: > For over a year EAA Chapter 573 Norway has tried in vain to get our CAA > to revise their decision 18 months ago to restrict flight with > Experimental aircraft to only day VMC (i.e. no flying at night or in > IMC, regardless of the individual aircrafts instrumentation, lights or > the pilots qualifications). EAA 573 is, however, not a directly > affected party, so they cannot appeal this decision. > > I therefore decided to file a protest to the Department of > Transportation for the ruling against my aircraft, as a test case which > could decide the future for all such aircraft in Norway. At long last, > the CAA has now brought my appeal before the DoT for decision. Their > only argument, which I think is a very meek one, is our professional > opinion at a general level. What does that mean??!! I have the > opportunity to comment the statements made by the CAA in their > presentation of the case. > > I therefore ask all of you, in the different countries around the world, > kindly to give me feedback on the following, at your early convenience: > > In your country, with respect to Experimental class aircraft (in some > European countries referred to as Annex II aircraft): > > - Is night flight permitted, provided the aircraft has the required > lamps and lights? > > - Is flying under IMC permitted, provided the aircraft has the required > instrumentation? > > - Approximately how many aircraft (Experimental/Annex II) are flying in > your country (not limited to night/IMC-equipped/instrumented), i.e. > total fleet of homebuilt aircraft? > > For my British friends: Some time ago your organization (I do not recall > its name) was preparing an appeal against a similar decision by your > authorities. Did you succeed, or where does this issue stand at the moment? > > Thank you! > > Svein > > LN-SKJ > > * > > > * > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:19 PM PST US From: "graeme bird" Subject: Europa-List: prices from swift Hi, I am a newbie. I have recently purchased kit 176 and have been trying to get prices from the office for a trigear conversion, other recent mods and the firewall forward. Its been weeks and weeks now and still no prices. Is this normal? I am starting to get worried that I all I have is a pile of scrap GRP. The kit is partly prepared for painting. Any other builders near Milton Keynes in the UK? Graeme Bird, ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:11 PM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: prices from swift Graeme, I was with Mike McLean from the Company last week in Florida and he apologised that there have been some delays in responding to enquiries due to reorganisations and staff compassionate leave. Mike is currently (as at last Sunday) stuck in New York due to the Volcano Hang on in there and contact Mike on the following - mike.mclean@swifttg.com - I am sure he will be pleased to help. Steve Pitt G-SMDH Trigear ----- Original Message ----- From: graeme bird To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:29 PM Subject: Europa-List: prices from swift Hi, I am a newbie. I have recently purchased kit 176 and have been trying to get prices from the office for a trigear conversion, other recent mods and the firewall forward. Its been weeks and weeks now and still no prices. Is this normal? I am starting to get worried that I all I have is a pile of scrap GRP. The kit is partly prepared for painting. Any other builders near Milton Keynes in the UK? Graeme Bird, ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 04/23/10 07:31:00 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:04 PM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Day VMC only Jeff Am I correct to think there are some bits of airway where you cannot fly in a home built? It might have changed it is a few years since I did FAA licences. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B Sent: 23 April 2010 18:52 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Day VMC only Svein, Here in the USA, all is permitted and there are thousands of homebuilts, here. Many flying IMC and nighttime. Good luck in your quest. Jeff - Baby Blue 500+ hours On 4/23/2010 11:48 AM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote: > For over a year EAA Chapter 573 Norway has tried in vain to get our CAA > to revise their decision 18 months ago to restrict flight with > Experimental aircraft to only day VMC (i.e. no flying at night or in > IMC, regardless of the individual aircraft's instrumentation, lights or > the pilot's qualifications). EAA 573 is, however, not a directly > affected party, so they cannot appeal this decision. > > I therefore decided to file a protest to the Department of > Transportation for the ruling against my aircraft, as a test case which > could decide the future for all such aircraft in Norway. At long last, > the CAA has now brought my appeal before the DoT for decision. Their > only argument, which I think is a very meek one, is "our professional > opinion - at a general level". What does that mean??!! I have the > opportunity to comment the statements made by the CAA in their > presentation of the case. > > I therefore ask all of you, in the different countries around the world, > kindly to give me feedback on the following, at your early convenience: > > In your country, with respect to Experimental class aircraft (in some > European countries referred to as Annex II aircraft): > > - Is night flight permitted, provided the aircraft has the required > lamps and lights? > > - Is flying under IMC permitted, provided the aircraft has the required > instrumentation? > > - Approximately how many aircraft (Experimental/Annex II) are flying in > your country (not limited to night/IMC-equipped/instrumented), i.e. > total fleet of homebuilt aircraft? > > For my British friends: Some time ago your organization (I do not recall > its name) was preparing an appeal against a similar decision by your > authorities. Did you succeed, or where does this issue stand at the moment? > > Thank you! > > Svein > > LN-SKJ > > * > > > * > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:04 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. From: "rampil" Just like cooling inside the cowl, cooling of the instrument panel can be non-or counter intuitive. In some engine cowls, the air pressure gradients and consequent flow can be stagnant or even flowing backward. The same is true, no doubt for the instrument panel depending on a myriad of custom factors like air flow up from the tunnel via the wiring to the fuel pump and how closely seal the bottom of the panel is. My panel is not currently cooled. In six years of flying, I have seen the need for cooling for a total of about 30 minutes of flying with my UPS Stack and my Blue Mountain. The BMA reports internal temp when it exceeds 135F (Auto shutdown at 145 or 150F if I recall correctly) Not a priority therefore, but somewhere on the to do list. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295451#295451 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:55 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. Ira, On my build site, you can see where I placed a computer case fan to evacuate the rear of the panel, should I encounter a situation where the equipment overheated. My thoughts were that it would pull out warm air without really creating an air flow across the equipment. To date, I've never had to use it. Go figure... Jeff - Baby Blue 500+ hours On 4/23/2010 3:42 PM, rampil wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" > > Just like cooling inside the cowl, cooling of the instrument panel > can be non-or counter intuitive. > > In some engine cowls, the air pressure gradients and consequent flow > can be stagnant or even flowing backward. > > The same is true, no doubt for the instrument panel depending on a > myriad of custom factors like air flow up from the tunnel via the wiring to > the fuel pump and how closely seal the bottom of the panel is. > > My panel is not currently cooled. In six years of flying, I have seen the > need for cooling for a total of about 30 minutes of flying with my > UPS Stack and my Blue Mountain. The BMA reports internal temp when > it exceeds 135F (Auto shutdown at 145 or 150F if I recall correctly) > > Not a priority therefore, but somewhere on the to do list. > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295451#295451 > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Day VMC only From: Paul McAllister Hi Pete, I have flown my Europa in the US IFR system quite a lot and I am not aware of any Victor Airways that are excluded for home built aircraft. I find it intriguing that I am processed in the system exactly the same as a 747 Heavy. I am still waiting for that ATC Radio call that says "Europa N378PJ, slow speed to maintain spacing for LearJet ahead of you." Oh well, I can only wish.... I was once over the top of Class B airspace listening to ATC and heard them refer to me as "Type unknown, appears to be a high performance single".... but I still waiting for that elusive slow down for a LearJet call. Cheers, Paul ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:33 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Day VMC only Pete, An excellent question. I've never run into a situation where I could not fly my plane, other than posted TFR's, but then they apply to all aircraft. Maybe in some of the busier Class B airspace, but I tend to stay away from those places, anyway. I've never had a problem in class C airspace and I can't easily reach class A, though I know those who have, with ATC clearence. I'll bet FAA.gov (?) would be able to answer your question... Jeff On 4/23/2010 3:42 PM, Pete Lawless wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" > > Jeff > > Am I correct to think there are some bits of airway where you cannot fly in > a home built? It might have changed it is a few years since I did FAA > licences. > > Regards > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B > Sent: 23 April 2010 18:52 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Day VMC only > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B > > Svein, > > Here in the USA, all is permitted and there are thousands of homebuilts, > here. Many flying IMC and nighttime. Good luck in your quest. > > Jeff - Baby Blue > 500+ hours > > On 4/23/2010 11:48 AM, Sidsel& Svein Johnsen wrote: >> For over a year EAA Chapter 573 Norway has tried in vain to get our CAA >> to revise their decision 18 months ago to restrict flight with >> Experimental aircraft to only day VMC (i.e. no flying at night or in >> IMC, regardless of the individual aircraft's instrumentation, lights or >> the pilot's qualifications). EAA 573 is, however, not a directly >> affected party, so they cannot appeal this decision. >> >> I therefore decided to file a protest to the Department of >> Transportation for the ruling against my aircraft, as a test case which >> could decide the future for all such aircraft in Norway. At long last, >> the CAA has now brought my appeal before the DoT for decision. Their >> only argument, which I think is a very meek one, is "our professional >> opinion - at a general level". What does that mean??!! I have the >> opportunity to comment the statements made by the CAA in their >> presentation of the case. >> >> I therefore ask all of you, in the different countries around the world, >> kindly to give me feedback on the following, at your early convenience: >> >> In your country, with respect to Experimental class aircraft (in some >> European countries referred to as Annex II aircraft): >> >> - Is night flight permitted, provided the aircraft has the required >> lamps and lights? >> >> - Is flying under IMC permitted, provided the aircraft has the required >> instrumentation? >> >> - Approximately how many aircraft (Experimental/Annex II) are flying in >> your country (not limited to night/IMC-equipped/instrumented), i.e. >> total fleet of homebuilt aircraft? >> >> For my British friends: Some time ago your organization (I do not recall >> its name) was preparing an appeal against a similar decision by your >> authorities. Did you succeed, or where does this issue stand at the > moment? >> >> Thank you! >> >> Svein >> >> LN-SKJ >> >> * >> >> >> * >> >> >> >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:03 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. On 04/23/2010 06:39 PM, rparigoris wrote: > Hi Ira Thx. for the reply. How are you cooling your radio, > transponder and EFIS? Instrument cooling???? My Garmin SL-30 consumes less than 1 Amp max during receive. If it were to convert this current totally into heat (efficiency zero), it could only produce 14 Watts of heat. My transponder consumes approximately 250mA. With this current it can not produce more than 3 Watts of heat (again with a worst case efficiency of 0). That's about the same as an annunciater light, and that doesn't need cooling either. I have no EFIS, but if such a beast is not a powerhog, it can not produce much heat as well. Modern avionics is very efficient and does't produce as much heat as the older style equipment, and hence doesn't need cooling at all. Have you actually tested how much "heat" your equipment produces? If there is no heat production in the instrument module, there is no need to remove it. ;-) Frans ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Ira "Just like cooling inside the cowl, cooling of the instrument panelcan be non-or counter intuitive.In some engine cowls, the air pressure gradients and consequent flow can be stagnant or even flowing backward." First off bottom line is figures don't lie, but liars sure do figure. When I am able to testI will post results of how my fans influence cooling. I don't think it is a fair comparison to compare dynamics of a Europa cowl with instrument module cooling. In cowl you are trying to force rarefied air down, it does not want to do that. As far as stalled or reversing air, you are taking accelerated air and trying to force it through a less than ideal duct in addition to forcing hot air down. The only means of propulsion is by pushing it. In my instrument module, dynamics are much more likely to be that of a base board radiator. If there is no heat and if it becomes stalled, not too much a problem. If it is hot inside, then through natural convection hot will go to top. I have a nice gap along bottom of module to allow cabin air to enter. Thus doing nothing natural convection "should" create a flow. Fans at top only enhance the natural convection. Comforting that not too many folks have had too much problems with overheating instruments or radios which I based my decision to help only a little with cooling and get a bit of demisting as well. FWIW I measured the pressure at the top of a hot air balloon with ambien 60F and top of balloon inside 200F at sealevel, pressure was .008psi, at mouth of balloon .000psi, not too much pressure but amazing how much flow can be had. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:48 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. Frans, Ira and others... As a weight and power Zealot I see your points, however the fastest way to kill electronics is heat. My panel only draws a few amps, and the manufacturers do not require cooling fans, but without the fan cooling, the slow steady increase in heat makes the inside of my vented panel rise to over 100 degrees even on a cloudy day. The Europa panel is made for ease of installation and removal for maintenance. However, the novice does not notice that the panel can be built almost air tight. Many put extensions and iso mounts to allow air flow, but still it is a hot box. In winter I wanted some warmth and vented my panel from the passenger side footwell ( a fan blowing up on my radios over to the pilot side footwell which has a tube sucking air from the top of the Blue Mountain Lite down and out the left rear of the panel), my thinking was that it would keep my feet warm. I am here to tell you, it got hot. The steady stream of 90 F air on my feet became annoying. I will vent back to a vent in the top of the panel onto the windscreen very soon. Our experience at Custom Flight has seen the Dynon Flight Deck 180 or D100s go blank on a 90 F summer day. The Dynon is working but the screen video goes near blank. The panel interior temperature was about 100 on the outside but the local component inside was hotter causing the blanking. As far as the newer avionics we all can't live without, if you hold your hand to the back of the new Garmin G3X (2.75amps -35to +70C), or Dynon Skyview (3.5 amps -40 to +60C), the case is actually very warm (hot), and although neither needs direct fan cooling, the manufacturers require space and air movement, which to me means, I need a fan. Grand Rapids Sport is a very low power system however they warn: "The GRT Horizon EFIS does not require external cooling. However, as with all electronic equipment, lower operating temperatures extend equipment life. Units in an avionics stack heat each other through radiation, convection and sometimes by direct conduction. Even a stand- alone unit operates at a higher temperature in still air than in moving air. Fans or some other means of moving air around electronic equipment are usually worthwhile. Be certain that cooling air does not contain water - a problem often encountered when using external forced air cooling air. The Horizon HX contains in internal cooling fan. Be sure that there is adequate air available so that it can cool the display unit. Although the microprocessors don't use much power, they do need heat dissapation." As for venting the windshield, I couldn't agree more, that a pleasant 85 degree Zephyr bathing the windscreen should work on a coolish day and modest humidity, but on those rainy days such as when we left Sunday after Sun 'n Fun, the only way to keep the windscreen clear was a rag, a Zephyr doesn't hack it. Like the car, the windscreen needs a pretty stout blast of very warm air if it is to clear effectively in high humidity conditions and those high speed descents from 10 grand back into the hot sticky airports of Florida. The open panel metal airplanes get enough air to get by because of their hangy downey wires from their open panels and drafty metal construction. We have a neat and tidy panel package that alas, can cook our avionics. Bottom line is, fans or outside ducted air are a good thing for the life of avionics. Just my opinion, Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: Frans Veldman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 7:06 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Instrument module cooling/demisting fans. > On 04/23/2010 06:39 PM, rparigoris wrote: > Hi Ira Thx. for the reply. How are you cooling your radio, > transponder and EFIS? Instrument cooling???? My Garmin SL-30 consumes less than 1 Amp max during receive. If it were to convert this current totally into heat (efficiency zero), it could only produce 14 Watts of heat. My transponder consumes approximately 250mA. With this current it can not produce more than 3 Watts of heat (again with a worst case efficiency of 0). That's about the same as an annunciater light, and that doesn't need cooling either. I have no EFIS, but if such a beast is not a powerhog, it can not produce much heat as well. Modern avionics is very efficient and does't produce as much heat as the older style equipment, and hence doesn't need cooling at all. Have you actually tested how much "heat" your equipment produces? If there is no heat production in the instrument module, there is no need to remove it. ;-) Frans http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.