Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:06 AM - 50 Hour Checklist (David Joyce)
2. 02:06 AM - puralator mesh supply (David Joyce)
3. 02:56 AM - Re: puralator mesh supply (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
4. 02:56 AM - Re: 50 Hour Checklist (David Joyce)
5. 03:22 AM - Ditching checklist (Frans Veldman)
6. 03:58 AM - Re: Ditching checklist (David Joyce)
7. 04:06 AM - LA Europa Owners (Tony Renshaw)
8. 04:36 AM - Re: LA Europa Owners (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
9. 06:04 AM - Re: Ditching checklist (Frans Veldman)
10. 06:19 AM - Re: Ditching checklist (rampil)
11. 06:52 AM - Re: Ditching checklist (David Joyce)
12. 07:20 AM - Re: Firewall (William Daniell)
13. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: Ditching checklist (Frans Veldman)
14. 08:21 AM - Re: Ditching checklist (rampil)
15. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Ditching checklist (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
16. 09:04 AM - Re: Very Good News 1.2 Bar Radiator cap (zwakie)
17. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: Ditching checklist (Hans J. Danielsen)
18. 05:39 PM - Mono Wheel Qualified Instructors available for checkouts (Bud Yerly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 50 Hour Checklist |
I have misplaced my 50 Hour Check list can anyone help?
Rgds
David
Message 2
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| Subject: | puralator mesh supply |
Can anyone give me details of a good supplier for the puralator mesh filters
for std fit Europas please in the UK?
Rgds
David J
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: puralator mesh supply |
Europa (cars)=0Ahttps://www.europaspares.com/prod.asp?product_idx=2557&im
gstate=1=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: David Joy
ce <stranfaer@btinternet.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesd
ay, 4 May, 2010 9:55:42=0ASubject: Europa-List: puralator mesh supply=0A=0A
Has anyone else.....? =0ACan anyone give me details of a good supplier for
the puralator=0Amesh filters for std fit Europas please in the UK?=0A =0AR
=====================
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 50 Hour Checklist |
David, (the other one!), I will send you them off line, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Joyce" <stranfaer@btinternet.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 9:56 AM
Subject: Europa-List: 50 Hour Checklist
>I have misplaced my 50 Hour Check list can anyone help?
>
>
>
> Rgds
>
> David
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Ditching checklist |
Has anyone worked out a checklist for the unfortunate case one has to ditch?
I'm preparing one, but don't want to re-invent the wheel.
After reading some about this subject, my thinking is that one should
not use more than 10 degrees of flaps, to avoid the nose becoming too
low, and to avoid a wing digging in if the extended flap gets torn off
during the initial contact with water.
Another thing that crossed my mind is that it might be beneficial to
open the doors before touchdown. It is my understanding that they will
depart the airplane, which is probably a good thing in that situation,
anticipating the possibility that the airplane might flip over and one
has to evacuate the inverted airplane.
Has anyone done the math whether the wings and foam area's of an Europa
are sufficient to keep it floating?
Other Europa specific things to think about?
As far as I know no Europa has ever been ditched. Is that right?
I came accross these liferafts:
http://www.switlik.com/aviation-catalog-isplr-liferaft.html
The interesting thing about these personal liferafts is that they are so
small that you can wear them as a belt during flight. And with 5.7 lbs
they are very light. Two of these is not more expensive that one regular
multi-person raft, and appears to be more suitable for our small Europa's.
Any comments on these?
Frans
P.S. I appreciate that some folks choose not to fly over water. Mind you
though that in the Netherlands this would severely restrict ones
travels, so avoiding water is not an option.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Ditching checklist |
Frans, I like the single person life raft, although if flying with a
passenger it would be psychologically good to be in the same boat as your
mate. Having flown a lot over water I have given the matter of ditching a
fair bit of thought. With my mono my plan is to have max flap + wheel down
to give minimum approach speed (water being awfully hard at speed) but I
would leave the gear unlocked so that the wheel hitting the water would
retract itself (I guess), and limit the tendency to trip over the wheel and
bury the nose. There is good info on ditching at:
www.equipped.org/ditchingmyths.htm together with useful leads. It seems most
planes float plenty long enough to get out. If you compare the wing volume
with a surf board (capable of supporting >200lbs), I am pretty certain that
a classic would float for ever, and that an XS would float for a long time
before sufficient water found its way into the wings.
Hope it doesn't happen, but good for you for working out the 'what
ifs'! Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@privatepilots.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:15 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Ditching checklist
>
> Has anyone worked out a checklist for the unfortunate case one has to
> ditch?
>
> I'm preparing one, but don't want to re-invent the wheel.
>
> After reading some about this subject, my thinking is that one should
> not use more than 10 degrees of flaps, to avoid the nose becoming too
> low, and to avoid a wing digging in if the extended flap gets torn off
> during the initial contact with water.
>
> Another thing that crossed my mind is that it might be beneficial to
> open the doors before touchdown. It is my understanding that they will
> depart the airplane, which is probably a good thing in that situation,
> anticipating the possibility that the airplane might flip over and one
> has to evacuate the inverted airplane.
>
> Has anyone done the math whether the wings and foam area's of an Europa
> are sufficient to keep it floating?
>
> Other Europa specific things to think about?
>
> As far as I know no Europa has ever been ditched. Is that right?
>
> I came accross these liferafts:
> http://www.switlik.com/aviation-catalog-isplr-liferaft.html
>
> The interesting thing about these personal liferafts is that they are so
> small that you can wear them as a belt during flight. And with 5.7 lbs
> they are very light. Two of these is not more expensive that one regular
> multi-person raft, and appears to be more suitable for our small Europa's.
>
> Any comments on these?
>
> Frans
>
> P.S. I appreciate that some folks choose not to fly over water. Mind you
> though that in the Netherlands this would severely restrict ones
> travels, so avoiding water is not an option.
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | LA Europa Owners |
Gidday,
Well, after 4 years in the wilderness, and back on the "god forbidden horse", I'd
like to get in contact with any of my old Europa mates in the LA area. I recall
a few, but it might be better to see if anyone wants a visit from an Ozzie
lost in LA for a few days at the beginning of next week?
Reg
Tony R.
Sydney Ausie
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: LA Europa Owners |
Worth looking for Kim Prout. He flies from Cable but I lost his email=0AGra
ham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Tony Renshaw <to
nyrenshaw268@gmail.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, 4
May, 2010 11:56:44=0ASubject: Europa-List: LA Europa Owners=0A=0A--> Europa
-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>=0A=0AGidda
y,=0AWell, after 4 years in the wilderness, and back on the "god forbidden
horse", I'd like to get in contact with any of my old Europa mates in the L
A area. I recall a few, but it might be better to see if anyone wants a vis
it from an Ozzie lost in LA for a few days at the beginning of next week?
=========================0A
==
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Ditching checklist |
On 05/04/2010 12:52 PM, David Joyce wrote:
> Frans, I like the single person life raft, although if flying with a
> passenger it would be psychologically good to be in the same boat as
> your mate.
I agree. But the best thing is being able to get the raft out, inflate
it before loosing it, and make sure the drift rate of the raft is lower
than the swim capabilities of the fully dressed passenger or pilot. ;-)
> Having flown a lot over water I have given the matter of
> ditching a fair bit of thought. With my mono my plan is to have max flap
> + wheel down to give minimum approach speed (water being awfully hard at
> speed) but I would leave the gear unlocked so that the wheel hitting the
> water would retract itself (I guess), and limit the tendency to trip
> over the wheel and bury the nose.
Yes, that could work I guess. The only flaw I see is that extending the
flaps lowers the nose somewhat, and with ditching you want to keep the
nose as long as possible out of the water, to prevent it from digging
in. And I have some doubts what will happen first; the wheel retracting
or the wheel dragging the nose down. Taking inertia in mind these things
may happen simultaneously. As I have a tri gear, this question is a
hypothetical one. I plan to get the main gear touching first, and bleed
off as much speed as possible before the rest of the plane makes contact
with the water. Big question of course is whether the gear will stand
the forces or gets ripped off immediately...
About the flaps: what I have read (on the same site you recommended) is
that a few things will happen if you extent the flaps:
1) The flaps will change the attitude of the Europa to a more nose down
position. This is what you want to avoid when ditching. The more you can
keep the nose up, the better chance you have.
2) With the low wing Europa's, the flaps are among the first things to
contact the water. As the flaps are behind the wing spar, they will
rotate the plan nose up/tail down upon contact with the water. This
might cause the airplane to dig in violently as soon as the flaps touch
the water.
3) Given the forces involved, the flaps might depart the airplane upon
contact with the water. If they both depart simultaneously, it might be
not such a problem, but if one departs before the other, it leaves you
with a very asymmetrical setup during the flare, probably leaving the
airplane out of control. The remaining flap will turn the airplane
sideways, not a good thing!
So, I plan not to use the flaps, or with a compromise of about 10 degrees.
The trade off of course is that with less flaps the approach speed is
somewhat faster.
Let's hope that we will never find out which approach is the best one!
Frans
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Ditching checklist |
For the case of the trigear, one can only imagine a worse case.
It seems unlikely that a trigear can be prevented from digging
in at the nose and possibly cracking the canopy.
I fly over the Long Island Sound at least weekly (a minimum of
14 nm). At least, flying above 5000 MSL will get me close to the
sandy shores on either side
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296700#296700
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Ditching checklist |
Frans, Certainly the nose will be further down with flaps than without but
either way it is still up as long as the plane is flying, and being able to
see a bit more over the nose and being in the landing attitude that you are
used to landing the plane with seem to me to be significant advantages,
quite apart from hitting the water at an appreciably lower speed ( and of
course the energy of impact varies with the square of the speed. so for my
plane 49x49 = 2401 vs 39x39=1521, so barely 60% of the energy with flaps
down. If you were flying into a 10kt wind the difference would be closer to
half) Unless you are landing on a dead still inland lake I suspect that the
landing will be a major fairly abrupt splosh rather than a skidding along
the surface and lower energy will be very beneficial.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@privatepilots.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ditching checklist
>
> On 05/04/2010 12:52 PM, David Joyce wrote:
>
>> Frans, I like the single person life raft, although if flying with a
>> passenger it would be psychologically good to be in the same boat as
>> your mate.
>
> I agree. But the best thing is being able to get the raft out, inflate
> it before loosing it, and make sure the drift rate of the raft is lower
> than the swim capabilities of the fully dressed passenger or pilot. ;-)
>
>> Having flown a lot over water I have given the matter of
>> ditching a fair bit of thought. With my mono my plan is to have max flap
>> + wheel down to give minimum approach speed (water being awfully hard at
>> speed) but I would leave the gear unlocked so that the wheel hitting the
>> water would retract itself (I guess), and limit the tendency to trip
>> over the wheel and bury the nose.
>
> Yes, that could work I guess. The only flaw I see is that extending the
> flaps lowers the nose somewhat, and with ditching you want to keep the
> nose as long as possible out of the water, to prevent it from digging
> in. And I have some doubts what will happen first; the wheel retracting
> or the wheel dragging the nose down. Taking inertia in mind these things
> may happen simultaneously. As I have a tri gear, this question is a
> hypothetical one. I plan to get the main gear touching first, and bleed
> off as much speed as possible before the rest of the plane makes contact
> with the water. Big question of course is whether the gear will stand
> the forces or gets ripped off immediately...
>
> About the flaps: what I have read (on the same site you recommended) is
> that a few things will happen if you extent the flaps:
> 1) The flaps will change the attitude of the Europa to a more nose down
> position. This is what you want to avoid when ditching. The more you can
> keep the nose up, the better chance you have.
> 2) With the low wing Europa's, the flaps are among the first things to
> contact the water. As the flaps are behind the wing spar, they will
> rotate the plan nose up/tail down upon contact with the water. This
> might cause the airplane to dig in violently as soon as the flaps touch
> the water.
> 3) Given the forces involved, the flaps might depart the airplane upon
> contact with the water. If they both depart simultaneously, it might be
> not such a problem, but if one departs before the other, it leaves you
> with a very asymmetrical setup during the flare, probably leaving the
> airplane out of control. The remaining flap will turn the airplane
> sideways, not a good thing!
>
> So, I plan not to use the flaps, or with a compromise of about 10 degrees.
> The trade off of course is that with less flaps the approach speed is
> somewhat faster.
>
> Let's hope that we will never find out which approach is the best one!
>
> Frans
>
>
>
Message 12
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|
thanks Jim
jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote:
>
> AS markets a stainless steel firewall kit. In it they give you about
> a square yard of SS sandwich material and a tube of adhesive. You
> first cut patterns from cardboard, then cut the SS material with
> scissors, then use the adhesive to bond it to the firewall. It is
> actually about a 2 hour job and quite easy. However, there is a
> "gotcha." Be very careful of the SS material once you have cut it.
> It is VERY SHARP and will cut your hands to ribbons if you are not
> careful.
>
>
>
> Jim Puglise A-283
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Ditching checklist |
On 05/04/2010 03:13 PM, rampil wrote:
> For the case of the trigear, one can only imagine a worse case.
> It seems unlikely that a trigear can be prevented from digging
> in at the nose and possibly cracking the canopy.
Why does it seem that? Statistics show that tri gear aircraft have no
higher tendency to nose over than rectractables. Unless the Europa has a
feature not found on other tri gear airplane, I don't think it is worse
than comparable aircraft.
Contrary, I think the monowheel is worse in this aspect. It has a
tendency on land already to nose over if you brake firmly, and I don't
see why this would be different on water.
With the tri gear, before the nose is able to touch the water, the gear
has dissipated already quite some of the energy (either due to drag in
the water, or due to destruction of the gear).
Frans
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Ditching checklist |
Frans,
The main gear touching the water will cause pitching moment nose
down because the wheels, with no rolling will be retarded by water
like hitting a brick wall.
This is completely unlike the balancing act on a rolling
wheel responsible for monowheel accidents.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296725#296725
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Ditching checklist |
The mono is much less likely to dig in, think of the pitching moment that t
he gear exerts as it hits the water. =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________
__________________=0AFrom: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0ATo: eur
opa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, 4 May, 2010 15:26:36=0ASubject: Re:
Europa-List: Re: Ditching checklist=0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by
: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0A=0AOn 05/04/2010 03:13 PM, rampi
l wrote:=0A=0A> For the case of the trigear, one can only imagine a worse c
ase.=0A> It seems unlikely that a trigear can be prevented from digging=0A>
in at the nose and possibly cracking the canopy.=0A=0AWhy does it seem tha
t? Statistics show that tri gear aircraft have no=0Ahigher tendency to nose
over than rectractables. Unless the Europa has a=0Afeature not found on ot
her tri gear airplane, I don't think it is worse=0Athan comparable aircraft
.=0A=0AContrary, I think the monowheel is worse in this aspect. It has a=0A
tendency on land already to nose over if you brake firmly, and I don't=0Ase
e why this would be different on water.=0A=0AWith the tri gear, before the
nose is able to touch the water, the gear=0Ahas dissipated already quite so
me of the energy (either due to drag in=0Athe water, or due to destruction
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Very Good News 1.2 Bar Radiator cap |
I received notification that Motobins is out of stock, they expect to receive new
stock in appr. 3-4 weeks.
So I did extended my search, and found BMW's part number for the 1.2 bar cap: 17112345074.
Do a Google on that number, and you will find numerous places around the globe
where you can buy them (of course I can't tell if these sellers hold them on stock)
--------
Marcel
(Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW - formerly G-BWON)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296729#296729
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Ditching checklist |
----- Original Message -----
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:12 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Ditching checklist
>
> Frans,
>
> The main gear touching the water will cause pitching moment nose
> down because the wheels, with no rolling will be retarded by water
> like hitting a brick wall.
That's why most of successful ditchings in the past have been made with
landing gear retracted - the Hudson landing being the last example. A friend
ditched a Curtiss C-46 on a sideriver to the Congo river many years ago (was
running out of fuel). A non event according to the driver. The worst part
was all the crocs waiting to get them when they evacuated on a tiny raft.
For the Mono I would opt for the same and accept the higher airspeed with
flaps retracted. You have to play the touch down though - bleeding off
airspeed close to the surface and touch in a nose high attitude. In other
words touch with the aft part of the fuselage - paralell to a swell if
there's any.
Should result in a skim rather than a splosh!
Hans, LN-HJD
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296725#296725
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Mono Wheel Qualified Instructors available for checkouts |
Gentlemen,
Do we have any qualified instructors for mono wheel insurance checkouts
in your area.
As our monowheel owners eventually find, if they wish to sell their
aircraft, finding a good instructor locally can be a challenge.
Here on the East Coast I too no longer have a stable of qualified
instructors. I'm afraid, in today's litigious society some insurers now
require complex aircraft checkouts as a condition for insurance or they
will not insure loss in motion.
If you know of anyone still willing to fly checkouts in the mono, please
email me so I may begin a list.
Bud Yerly
US Europa Dealer
budyerly@msn.com<mailto:budyerly@msn.com>
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