---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/12/10: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:08 AM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 2. 04:05 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Peter Zutrauen) 3. 05:56 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Peter Zutrauen) 5. 06:46 AM - Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? (rampil) 6. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 7. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Bud Yerly) 8. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 9. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Peter Zutrauen) 10. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Raimo Toivio) 11. 10:25 AM - PH-DIY performance data (Frans Veldman) 12. 10:49 AM - Re: PH-DIY performance data (David Joyce) 13. 10:53 AM - Europa Company Spares support (Brian Davies) 14. 12:02 PM - Re: PH-DIY performance data (Frans Veldman) 15. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 16. 02:18 PM - Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? (rparigoris) 17. 06:33 PM - Re: Europa Company Spares support (Martin Tuck) 18. 06:39 PM - Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? (rampil) 19. 07:43 PM - Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill (William McClellan) 20. 07:57 PM - Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? (rparigoris) 21. 11:17 PM - Re: Europa Company Spares support (GRAHAM SINGLETON) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:09 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 04/12/2010 08:06 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > I'm perplexed - all the photos I've ever looked at of Europas in cruise, > the trim tab is *up* (as others have noted), thus the flying elevator is > by definition providing *lift* to the tail.... a contradiction to my > teachings. Let's add some more to the confusion... Especially for those who claim never having seen an Europa with the anti servo tab NOT in the up position, here are some pictures we took when flying our PH-DIY in formation with the PH-JAI from Tim Weert. As you can see on the attached pictures, the PH-DIY has the anti servo tab perfectly in line with the rest of the tail plane (as it should be, because it is an anti servo tab, who's task it is to drive the tailplane until it is line with the trim tab). Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim From: Peter Zutrauen Thanks Frans! *Very* interesting. just a note - my original statement below is wrong - as an upward trim tab results in a downward force on the tail, not lift as I had originally (incorrectly) thought. questions: - were you in stead-state constant-altitude cruise? - where was your trim set at? - was your stick force = 0? - what was your cruise speed? - what was your weight and balance (with fuel at that point in time)? As the tailplane is a symmetrical airfoil, my confused mind asserts that in cruise (since the horizontal stab by definition must be providing a downward force) your tailplane must have been at a negative angle of attack, and since the combination anti-servo/trim tab was in a neutral position then I would have expected a steady stick force would have needed to be applied.... or a far aft CG condition would have been needed? Many thanks! Pete A239 On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 4:05 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > On 04/12/2010 08:06 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > > > I'm perplexed - all the photos I've ever looked at of Europas in cruise, > > the trim tab is *up* (as others have noted), thus the flying elevator is > > by definition providing *lift* to the tail.... a contradiction to my > > teachings. > > Let's add some more to the confusion... > > Especially for those who claim never having seen an Europa with the anti > servo tab NOT in the up position, here are some pictures we took when > flying our PH-DIY in formation with the PH-JAI from Tim Weert. > > As you can see on the attached pictures, the PH-DIY has the anti servo > tab perfectly in line with the rest of the tail plane (as it should be, > because it is an anti servo tab, who's task it is to drive the tailplane > until it is line with the trim tab). > > Frans > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:20 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 05/12/2010 01:03 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > As the tailplane is a symmetrical airfoil, my confused mind asserts > that in cruise (since the horizontal stab by definition must be > providing a downward force) your tailplane must have been at a negative > angle of attack, and since the combination anti-servo/trim tab was in a > neutral position then I would have expected a steady stick force would > have needed to be applied.... This is an *anti servo trim tab*, if it is not in line with the tailplane, it puts a force on the tailplane so that the tailplane rotates until it is in line with the anti servo trim tab again. You can easily see what I mean by exercising the trim in whatever position, and then carefully with your hands on the anti servo tab, try to push it in line with the tailplane again. You will see that the tailplane rotates during this process, and that you will always end up with the anti servo tab in line with the tailplane. This is true for *any* speed, *any* CG, etc, except when the pilot exercises some force on the stick. Any force on the stick gets into the equation and disturbes this balance. If you trim for a specific speed, all you do is put the stick in a specific position, and then with the trim button, line up the anti servo tab with the tailplane, to keep the tailplane at its new position. You will always end up with the anti servo tab in the same relative position of the tailplane. The real confusion is that there are people flying around with the anti servo tab not in line with the tailplane. This means they are either pulling or pushing slightly on the stick, or that the tailplane is not balanced out properly. About the latter: I disconnected everything from the tailplane when balancing it out. If you leave the stick connected, you won't get a proper balance and the anti servo tab will not find its equilibrium in line with the tailplane. Next time we do this, I will vary the speed, trim for each speed, and make a picture again. I would be really surprised if at any speed the anti servo tab will not remain in its same relative position to the tailplane. (Of course at every speed, the whole stack of tailplane plus anti servo tab will rotate to a specific position... but with the anti servo tab always in line with the tailplane. This is what you do if you trim: lining the anti servo tab up with the tailplane in its new position). Now, for your questions (although they don't matter): > - were you in stead-state constant-altitude cruise? Yep. (We were in close formation so we wouldn't dare to fly anything than a very stabilized attitude). > - where was your trim set at? At 1/3 from the nose down limit. > - was your stick force = 0? Of course 0. > - what was your cruise speed? About 110 Knots. > - what was your weight and balance (with fuel at that point in time)? Two adults, about 20Kg of bagage, and about 40 liters of fuel. Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim From: Peter Zutrauen Hi Frans, I understand your thesis (thanks again! :-). Your thesis assumes that the tailplane is aerodynamically balanced wrt to the torque-tube position, and the only aerodynamic component which is stabilizing it and keeping it from flutter is the anti-servo tab. I question this, as the fulcrum is ahead of the center of the tailplane. Maybe my skepticism is unwarranted? Is the fulcrum in the center of the tailplane aerodynamically? Without the anti-servo tab, would the tailplane flutter by design? I doubt this is the case, as (I believe) the flettner strips were added to eliminate the 'dead zone' of the anti-servo tab (bringing it out of the boundary layer) to eliminate a trim-hunting issue, not flutter (someone with some historical knowledge please do chime in!). I would expect/hope that the tailplane would remain aerodynamically stable without the anti-servo tab, and that the tab is there only to provide for progressive stick forces, and trim. The "still curious", Pete :-) On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 05/12/2010 01:03 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > > > As the tailplane is a symmetrical airfoil, my confused mind asserts > > that in cruise (since the horizontal stab by definition must be > > providing a downward force) your tailplane must have been at a negative > > angle of attack, and since the combination anti-servo/trim tab was in a > > neutral position then I would have expected a steady stick force would > > have needed to be applied.... > > This is an *anti servo trim tab*, if it is not in line with the > tailplane, it puts a force on the tailplane so that the tailplane > rotates until it is in line with the anti servo trim tab again. > You can easily see what I mean by exercising the trim in whatever > position, and then carefully with your hands on the anti servo tab, try > to push it in line with the tailplane again. You will see that the > tailplane rotates during this process, and that you will always end up > with the anti servo tab in line with the tailplane. > This is true for *any* speed, *any* CG, etc, except when the pilot > exercises some force on the stick. Any force on the stick gets into the > equation and disturbes this balance. > If you trim for a specific speed, all you do is put the stick in a > specific position, and then with the trim button, line up the anti servo > tab with the tailplane, to keep the tailplane at its new position. You > will always end up with the anti servo tab in the same relative position > of the tailplane. > > The real confusion is that there are people flying around with the anti > servo tab not in line with the tailplane. This means they are either > pulling or pushing slightly on the stick, or that the tailplane is not > balanced out properly. > > About the latter: I disconnected everything from the tailplane when > balancing it out. If you leave the stick connected, you won't get a > proper balance and the anti servo tab will not find its equilibrium in > line with the tailplane. > > Next time we do this, I will vary the speed, trim for each speed, and > make a picture again. I would be really surprised if at any speed the > anti servo tab will not remain in its same relative position to the > tailplane. (Of course at every speed, the whole stack of tailplane plus > anti servo tab will rotate to a specific position... but with the anti > servo tab always in line with the tailplane. This is what you do if you > trim: lining the anti servo tab up with the tailplane in its new position). > > Now, for your questions (although they don't matter): > > > - were you in stead-state constant-altitude cruise? > > Yep. (We were in close formation so we wouldn't dare to fly anything > than a very stabilized attitude). > > > - where was your trim set at? > > At 1/3 from the nose down limit. > > > - was your stick force = 0? > > Of course 0. > > > - what was your cruise speed? > > About 110 Knots. > > > - what was your weight and balance (with fuel at that point in time)? > > Two adults, about 20Kg of bagage, and about 40 liters of fuel. > > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:32 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? From: "rampil" I think the dbs on the panel module should be male instead of female as you propose. After all, the module is inserted into the fuse!! Actually, I used CPC connectors because they are engineered for applications like this and are far more rugged -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297482#297482 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:42 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 05/12/2010 03:22 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > Your thesis assumes that the tailplane is aerodynamically balanced wrt > to the torque-tube position, and the only aerodynamic component which is > stabilizing it and keeping it from flutter is the anti-servo tab. Stabilizing, but not necessarily keeping it from flutter. I think that the mass balance weight is to keep it from flutter, just as with the ailerons (that don't need to have a trim tab for that either). > I would expect/hope that the tailplane would remain aerodynamically > stable without the anti-servo tab, and that the tab is there only to > provide for progressive stick forces, and trim. This is how it works I believe. At least is seems so on the PH-DIY. ;-) Frans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:46 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim Good analysis Frans, If the tail plane is perfectly balanced and friction in the system nil, the trim tab is centered. A too heavy counter weight is offset by the trailing edge of the tab up. A difference in flettner strips can cause the same. Flutter is dependent on the center of mass and the aerodynamic center. A horizontal control surface, mechanically balanced, with a symmetrical airfoil surface with the aero center co-located with the center of mass tends to stay neutrally stable. Camber angle and or trim tabs change that of course. When the center of mass is behind the the center of pressure, the trailing edge goes down due to gravity, aerodynamic forces then try to lift the trailing edge and in some cases overshoot the center line, so gravity and the aero forces push the TE down, then it overshoots again and flutter occurs. This is especially a concern of a cambered aileron not mass balanced. I don't have time to go into the drawings, but a symmetrical airfoil contributes no moment to its normal force at low angles. That is, if it is perfectly balanced at its aerodynamic center, it will stay at its angle of attack unless acted on mechanically and requires no force (beyond mechanical friction in the mechanism) to move it. It will, by previous statement, also apply no counter force when moved (so no pilot feel). This is why we have the anti servo tab, to create feedback to the pilot. It also cleverly applies trim. If the flettner strips are not perfect, and or the mass balance is slightly off, your trim tab will show the effect of that. The asymmetric flettner strips of course act as a flap and become not an anti-servo tab, but a servo tab which drives the trim tab, which drives the tail. As for the unbalanced anti-servo tab. The tab itself does not contribute to flutter if it is fixed. If the tab is loose, the tail plane bushings or trim bushings are missing, loose, damaged or not installed, flutter will occur. This is why, I am such a zealot about stabilators, loose pins, and bearings. I would even prefer to try to mechanically balance the trim tab for the guy who mistakenly fails to hook up the trim tab pins to the trim bar. Hope that doesn't add to the confusion Pete. Bud Yerly Tech Support ----- Original Message ----- From: Frans Veldman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim > On 05/12/2010 03:22 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > Your thesis assumes that the tailplane is aerodynamically balanced wrt > to the torque-tube position, and the only aerodynamic component which is > stabilizing it and keeping it from flutter is the anti-servo tab. Stabilizing, but not necessarily keeping it from flutter. I think that the mass balance weight is to keep it from flutter, just as with the ailerons (that don't need to have a trim tab for that either). > I would expect/hope that the tailplane would remain aerodynamically > stable without the anti-servo tab, and that the tab is there only to > provide for progressive stick forces, and trim. This is how it works I believe. At least is seems so on the PH-DIY. ;-) Frans http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:33 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim Pete=0AYou are right about the flettner strips, they bite through the bound ary layer and stop trim hunting hunting. The mass balance is there to balan ce the weight of the elevator.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________ ___________=0AFrom: Peter Zutrauen =0ATo: europa-list @matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, 12 May, 2010 14:22:36=0ASubject: Re: Euro pa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0A=0AHi Frans,=0A =0AI understand your thesis (thanks again! :-).=0A=0AYour thesis assumes th at the tailplane is aerodynamically balanced wrt to the torque-tube positio n, and the only aerodynamic component which is stabilizing it and keeping i t from flutter is the anti-servo tab. =0A=0AI question this, as the fulcru m is ahead of the center of the tailplane. Maybe my skepticism is unwarrant ed? Is the fulcrum in the center of the tailplane aerodynamically? Without the anti-servo tab, would the tailplane flutter by design? I doubt this i s the case, as (I believe) the flettner strips were added to eliminate the 'dead zone' of the anti-servo tab (bringing it out of the boundary layer) t o eliminate a trim-hunting issue, not flutter (someone with some historical knowledge please do chime in!).=0A=0AI would expect/hope that the tailplan e would remain aerodynamically stable without the anti-servo tab, and that the tab is there only to provide for progressive stick forces, and trim.=0A =0AThe "still curious",=0APete :-)=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, May 12, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:=0A=0A>--> Europa-List mes sage posted by: Frans Veldman =0A>=0A>=0A>>On 05/12 /2010 01:03 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote:=0A>=0A>>> As the tailplane is a symme trical airfoil, my confused mind asserts=0A>>> that in cruise (since the h orizontal stab by definition must be=0A>>> providing a downward force) your tailplane must have been at a negative=0A>>> angle of attack, and since th e combination anti-servo/trim tab was in a=0A>>> neutral position then I wo uld have expected a steady stick force would=0A>>> have needed to be applie d....=0A>=0A>This is an *anti servo trim tab*, if it is not in line with th e=0A>>tailplane, it puts a force on the tailplane so that the tailplane=0A> >rotates until it is in line with the anti servo trim tab again.=0A>>You ca n easily see what I mean by exercising the trim in whatever=0A>>position, a nd then carefully with your hands on the anti servo tab, try=0A>>to push it in line with the tailplane again. You will see that the=0A>>tailplane rota tes during this process, and that you will always end up=0A>>with the anti servo tab in line with the tailplane.=0A>>This is true for *any* speed, *an y* CG, etc, except when the pilot=0A>>exercises some force on the stick. An y force on the stick gets into the=0A>>equation and disturbes this balance. =0A>>If you trim for a specific speed, all you do is put the stick in a=0A> >specific position, and then with the trim button, line up the anti servo =0A>>tab with the tailplane, to keep the tailplane at its new position. You =0A>>will always end up with the anti servo tab in the same relative positi on=0A>>of the tailplane.=0A>=0A>>The real confusion is that there are peopl e flying around with the anti=0A>>servo tab not in line with the tailplane. This means they are either=0A>>pulling or pushing slightly on the stick, o r that the tailplane is not=0A>>balanced out properly.=0A>=0A>>About the la tter: I disconnected everything from the tailplane when=0A>>balancing it ou t. If you leave the stick connected, you won't get a=0A>>proper balance and the anti servo tab will not find its equilibrium in=0A>>line with the tail plane.=0A>=0A>>Next time we do this, I will vary the speed, trim for each s peed, and=0A>>make a picture again. I would be really surprised if at any s peed the=0A>>anti servo tab will not remain in its same relative position t o the=0A>>tailplane. (Of course at every speed, the whole stack of tailplan e plus=0A>>anti servo tab will rotate to a specific position... but with th e anti=0A>>servo tab always in line with the tailplane. This is what you do if you=0A>>trim: lining the anti servo tab up with the tailplane in its ne w position).=0A>=0A>>Now, for your questions (although they don't matter): =0A>=0A>=0A>>> - were you in stead-state constant-altitude cruise?=0A>=0A>Y ep. (We were in close formation so we wouldn't dare to fly anything=0A>>tha n a very stabilized attitude).=0A>=0A>=0A>>> - where was your trim set at? =0A>=0A>At 1/3 from the nose down limit.=0A>=0A>=0A>>> - was your stick for ce = 0?=0A>=0A>Of course 0.=0A>=0A>=0A>>> - what was your cruise speed? =0A>=0A>About 110 Knots.=0A>=0A>=0A>>> - what was your weight and balance ( with fuel at that point in time)?=0A>=0A>Two adults, about 20Kg of bagage, and about 40 liters of fuel.=0A>=0A>>Frans=0A>=0A>>======== ====0A>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa- List=0A>>============0A>http://forums.matronics.com =0A>>============0A>>le, List Admin.=0A>>="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>>=========== ======================= ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim From: Peter Zutrauen Thanks to both Frans & Bud for the detailed explanations! Coo!l ... it's all so clear to me now :-) My build goal with then to have a perfectly flettner'd tab to emulate Frans's beautiful workmanship. Cheers & thanks again! Pete A239 On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Bud Yerly wrote: > Good analysis Frans, > > If the tail plane is perfectly balanced and friction in the system nil, the > trim tab is centered. > A too heavy counter weight is offset by the trailing edge of the tab up. A > difference in flettner strips can cause the same. > > Flutter is dependent on the center of mass and the aerodynamic center. A > horizontal control surface, mechanically balanced, with a symmetrical > airfoil surface with the aero center co-located with the center of mass > tends to stay neutrally stable. Camber angle and or trim tabs change that > of course. > > When the center of mass is behind the the center of pressure, the trailing > edge goes down due to gravity, aerodynamic forces then try to lift the > trailing edge and in some cases overshoot the center line, so gravity and > the aero forces push the TE down, then it overshoots again and flutter > occurs. This is especially a concern of a cambered aileron not mass > balanced. > > I don't have time to go into the drawings, but a symmetrical airfoil > contributes no moment to its normal force at low angles. That is, if it is > perfectly balanced at its aerodynamic center, it will stay at its angle of > attack unless acted on mechanically and requires no force (beyond mechanical > friction in the mechanism) to move it. It will, by previous statement, also > apply no counter force when moved (so no pilot feel). This is why we have > the anti servo tab, to create feedback to the pilot. It also cleverly > applies trim. > > If the flettner strips are not perfect, and or the mass balance is slightly > off, your trim tab will show the effect of that. The asymmetric flettner > strips of course act as a flap and become not an anti-servo tab, but a servo > tab which drives the trim tab, which drives the tail. > > As for the unbalanced anti-servo tab. The tab itself does not contribute > to flutter if it is *fixed*. If the tab is loose, the tail plane bushings > or trim bushings are missing, loose, damaged or not installed, *flutter > will occur. * This is why, I am such a zealot about stabilators, loose > pins, and bearings. I would even prefer to try to mechanically balance the > trim tab for the guy who mistakenly fails to hook up the trim tab pins to > the trim bar. > > Hope that doesn't add to the confusion Pete. > > Bud Yerly > Tech Support > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Frans Veldman > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 12, 2010 9:52 AM > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch > Trim > > > On 05/12/2010 03:22 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > > > Your thesis assumes that the tailplane is aerodynamically balanced wrt > > to the torque-tube position, and the only aerodynamic component which is > > stabilizing it and keeping it from flutter is the anti-servo tab. > > Stabilizing, but not necessarily keeping it from flutter. I think that > the mass balance weight is to keep it from flutter, just as with the > ailerons (that don't need to have a trim tab for that either). > > > I would expect/hope that the tailplane would remain aerodynamically > > stable without the anti-servo tab, and that the tab is there only to > > provide for progressive stick forces, and trim. > > This is how it works I believe. At least is seems so on the PH-DIY. > p; Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web > title=http://forums.matronics.com/ > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > _p; generous bsp; title > http://www.matronics.com/contribution href=" > http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> > http://www.matronics.com/c================ > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:27 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim >> > The real confusion is that there are people > flying around with the anti > servo tab not in line with the tailplane. This > means they are either > pulling or pushing slightly on the stick, or > that the tailplane is not > balanced out properly. Frans, take it again: Balancing is nothing to do with that. Balancing is to prevent possible flutter. Only case when the trim tabs and the stabilator are in line is then, when they are in their neutral position. That is if the plane is correctly build as per manual. In that case only the plane is in its cleanest condition. You are able to achieve that with a certain combination of weight, speed, CofG etc but that is a special case. What faster we fly that more we get lift by wings. That is why we have to push more or trim nose down = trim tabs move upp when flying faster. The stabilators=B4 trailing edges move then down. They cannot be in-lined any more. Overall, tailplanes /stabilators are neutralized only when CofG = CofL (w zero stick forces). If you have to declect tailplanes (and wanna neutralize stick forces) you have to trim trim tabs to other direction. The aerodynamical forces /deflected trim tab are then equal with the aerodynamical forces /deflected tailplanes. They are balancing then each others by aerodynamically. They have to be un-lined normally, more or less! If not I am a Donald Duck! That is why we usually and almost always see them (trimtabs) in deflected position only. I am sure you will confirm that when you get take more photos. In your photo you were flying 110 knots, w/o stick forces, trim tabs and tailplanes in line: congratulations, your plane is very economical with that speed because obviously tailplanes are in their neutral position and the plane is most streamlined. Otherwise - your neutral is not exactly neutral. I assume your fuelflowcomputer will confirm that. If you wanna fly slower or faster (with same load and conditions) I am sure your tailplanes and trim tabs are not any more in line. The stick forces in Europa are quite light around 100 knots. Also the necessary movements to keep level flight are small. I would like to say: almost invisible when looking photos! Look at attached photo: I was flying around 120 knots with one Dynamic WT9. My trim tabs are slightly deflected upwards - so the stabilators have to be deflected downwards a little bit. If flying faster - they have to be deflected even more of course. The stabilators are very powerful - that is why they are near their neutral position almost always. That is why also the trim tabs are *almost* in-line fith stabilators. Notice - just almost. If you have trimmed, they are not exactly in-lined any more. *** Concorde did this by pumping fuel into fin or out from there. The stabilators could be so almost always in their neutral position and the plane was very clean. With Europa, we could have let is say 10 kilos of fuel inside the fin... That was my thought only. No confusion at all. Just aerodynamic. I am sure I will get a fast speed reply ;) Raimo Terveisin, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4 FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio@fly.to www.rwm.fi ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:30 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: PH-DIY performance data A few days ago we recorded some performance data. Air was not entirely smooth, so speed may be off a few knots. The cowl flap made a very noticable difference. Also, we got some rain, and it seems that it cuts a few knots off the speed. The data below was recorded with the cowl flap in cruise setting (almost closed) and with dry wings. Airplane (Hi-top Tri gear) was a bit over MTOW. Power plant is a Rotax 914 coupled to a Woodcomp high twist 2-blade SR3000/W. I think the fuel consumption is a bit on the high side, what do you think? (Fuel flow has not been calibrated, sensors were used with factory calibration, but seems to roughly match with refueling data). Also, some people later commented that it is better to have a higher RPM for the Rotax and lower MAP's, any comments on this? MAP 27, RPM 4500: IAS 121, Fuel flow 15,5 L/h MAP 29, RPM 4800: IAS 134, Fuel flow 19,7 L/h MAP 31, RPM 5000: IAS 145, Fuel flow 24,0 L/h How does this compare? Any other MAP/RPM combinations I should try? Frans ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:31 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: PH-DIY performance data Frans, For what it's worth my 914 Xs/normal top/mono + speed kit/ Woodcomp SR3000W/3blade does the following at >90%MaxAUW at 2000ft: TAS 120 Kts 14 l/hr ,, 130 ,, 19 ,, ,, 140 ,, 23 ,, We have found on many trips that extra wheels don't help, but your figures are pretty close to mine even so, assuming your ASI reads correctly Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frans Veldman" Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:19 PM Subject: Europa-List: PH-DIY performance data > > A few days ago we recorded some performance data. Air was not entirely > smooth, so speed may be off a few knots. > > The cowl flap made a very noticable difference. Also, we got some rain, > and it seems that it cuts a few knots off the speed. > > The data below was recorded with the cowl flap in cruise setting (almost > closed) and with dry wings. Airplane (Hi-top Tri gear) was a bit over > MTOW. Power plant is a Rotax 914 coupled to a Woodcomp high twist > 2-blade SR3000/W. > > I think the fuel consumption is a bit on the high side, what do you > think? (Fuel flow has not been calibrated, sensors were used with > factory calibration, but seems to roughly match with refueling data). > Also, some people later commented that it is better to have a higher RPM > for the Rotax and lower MAP's, any comments on this? > > MAP 27, RPM 4500: IAS 121, Fuel flow 15,5 L/h > MAP 29, RPM 4800: IAS 134, Fuel flow 19,7 L/h > MAP 31, RPM 5000: IAS 145, Fuel flow 24,0 L/h > > How does this compare? > Any other MAP/RPM combinations I should try? > > Frans > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:09 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: Europa-List: Europa Company Spares support There have been a number of complaints regarding the supply of spares from the factory of late so I thought you might be interested in my experience. Yesterday afternoon I spotted that one of the rubber tubes connecting the carbs to the plenum chamber on my 912S was cracked. I phoned Europa late afternoon and two new rubber tubes arrived in the mail at 10 o'clock today. Can't get better than that! Clearly, if they have the part they work hard to ship as soon as possible. Brian Davies ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:45 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: PH-DIY performance data On 05/12/2010 07:47 PM, David Joyce wrote: > Frans, For what it's worth my 914 Xs/normal top/mono + speed kit/ > Woodcomp SR3000W/3blade does the following at >90%MaxAUW at 2000ft: > TAS 120 Kts 14 l/hr > ,, 130 ,, 19 ,, > ,, 140 ,, 23 ,, Is this TAS indeed? My data was based on IAS. At 2000 feet I can add about 4 knots to my speeds to get TAS. Anyway, then my fuel consumption doesn't seem to be that high, I assume this will improve a bit once the engine has been fully run in. (Operating temperatures are still dropping, so I assume it is still getting rid of excess friction). > We have found on many trips that extra wheels don't help, That's why I decided to get rid of one wheel, I'm happy with only three wheels. ;-) > figures are pretty close to mine even so, assuming your ASI reads correctly The ASI has been calibrated (mandatory) and was found to be correct to 1 knot over the entire range. The backup ASI (with separate pitot) agrees with the primary ASI. Do you recall what RPM and MAP settings you normally use? Thanks, Frans ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:32 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 05/12/2010 05:17 PM, Donald Duck wrote: > What faster we fly that more we get lift by wings. > That is why we have to push more or trim nose down = trim tabs move upp > when flying faster. > The stabilators trailing edges move then down. YES! And the story doesn't end here. Now, before we go any further, print this out, and take it with you to the hangar. Are you there? Fine. 1) Put the trim in the middle, and line up the tailplane and anti servo tab by rotating the tailplane. If done properly, the tailplane is in about its "neutral" position when it lines up with the anti servo tab. 2) Now, trim the nose down with your trim button. Anti servo tabs moves up (assuming you wired everything correctly). 3) Let's play aerodynamics. Your hand is the airstream. The anti servo trim "sticks out" in the airstream. Push with your hand on the anti servo tab to imitate the aerodynamic forces. 4) Now LOOK! The anti servo tab goes down. Due to some ingenious mechanical linking the trailing edge of the tailplane also moves down (this is why you trimmed the nose down after all). But most important: The anti servo tab moves faster down than the tailplane. While pushing the anti servo tab downward, it will at some moment be in line with the tailplane. Stop when you reach that moment. This is your newly trimmed out position! 5) Now stare at it for a while, and consider what you just did. Try it the other way around. 6) Start wondering why the anti servo tab would remain sticking out in the airstream by itself while nobody is keeping it there. Also try moving the trailing edge of the tailplane down without the anti servo tab moving twice as fast downwards as well. It can't be done! 7) Congratulations! You just discovered that an anti servo tab is not a regular trim tab! A regular trim tab is held in a fixed position and has no choice. An anti servo tab can move, seek the most convenient position, and as a consequence take the tailplane with it. > They have to be un-lined normally, more or less! > > If not I am a Donald Duck! Quack. :-D > That is why we usually and almost always see them (trimtabs) in > deflected position only. > I am sure you will confirm that when you get take more photos. If the opportunity exists, I will show it to you so you can see it with your own eyes. Frans ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:25 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? From: "rparigoris" Hi Ira Thx. for the reply. Did you mount CPC connector on the bottom of the instrument module? Did you install on both left and right sides of instrument module to accept fuse wires? I think Thx. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297539#297539 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:04 PM PST US From: Martin Tuck Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Company Spares support Every time I look at the Parts and Accessories page on the Europa Aircraft website it just has 'tba' for the price so I don't see how you can order anything. Martin Tuck Europa N152MT Wichita, Kansas Brian Davies wrote: > There have been a number of complaints regarding the supply of spares > from the factory of late so I thought you might be interested in my > experience. Yesterday afternoon I spotted that one of the rubber > tubes connecting the carbs to the plenum chamber on my 912S was > cracked. I phoned Europa late afternoon and two new rubber tubes > arrived in the mail at 10 o'clock today. > > Can't get better than that! Clearly, if they have the part they work > hard to ship as soon as possible. > > Brian Davies ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:01 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? From: "rampil" I have three CPCs, left right and center tunnel. I am not sure what you are referring to as "fuse" wires. Do you mean thin wires ala Nuckolls? Why would you put them in a plastic connector when if they actually overload, they flame and melt. Although I did put two sets of those fusible wires in my plane to protect my two ammeters. If I have to do it again, I'd use auto blade fuses for access and serviceability. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297553#297553 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:37 PM PST US From: William McClellan Subject: Europa-List: Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill I see in the archives that there has been a problem for some with the fuselage skin wrinkling in the area of the plastic fuel fill tube. My question is, why is it happening to only a few and is there a conclusive reason for it happening? Maybe the fuel fill tube should not be affixed to the inside skin of the fuselage as stated in the building manual but instead allowed to be more of a floating fit so the rubber hose will take up the expansion/contraction the plastic tube might be doing. Can anyone give me the answer to this question? Thanks, Bill McClellan ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:36 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? From: "rparigoris" Hi Ira "I have three CPCs, left right and center tunnel." How do you get to your left and right CPCs? Are they located inside instrument module where with instrument module in place and front panel inserts removed you access CPCs inside instrument module? If this is the case are they mounted to instrument module or firewall? Or are CPCs mounted to bottom of instrument module where they are accessed from the bottom of instrument module (could access with instrument module and front panels in place)? Sorry for confusing, when I mentioned fuse wires I was referring to fuselage wires, we have a bundle on the port side and also on starboard that needs to get into instrument module, low amperage stuff for the most part (nothing to do with fusible links), fuselage wires for: *switches on sticks *fuel flow transducers (2) *fuel gage sender *stabilator antiservo servo *aileron servo *E-Bus and always Hot-bus that live resident on back of starboard headrest need to plumb electron flow into instrument module *airspeed switch for gear warning *D10a magnitometer *20% throttle reed switch *gear down latch reed switch ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297560#297560 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:31 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Company Spares support Brian=0AI heard that there was a bad batch of rubber carb tubes, Neil Franc e had his 1 year old ones fail recently 100 miles from home.=0AGraham=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Brian Davies =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, 12 May, 2010 18:52:16=0ASubject: Europa-List: Europa Company Spares support=0A=0A=0ATher e have been a =0Anumber of complaints regarding the supply of spares from t he factory of late so =0AI thought you might be interested in my experience . Yesterday afternoon I =0Aspotted that one of the rubber tubes connecting the carbs to the plenum chamber =0Aon my 912S was cracked. I phoned Europa late afternoon and two new rubber tubes =0Aarrived in the mail at 10 o'clo ck today.=0A =0ACan't get better =0Athan that! Clearly, if they have the p art they work hard to ship as soon =0Aas possible.=0A =0ABrian =0ADavies=0A ================= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.