---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/13/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:55 AM - Re: Europa Company Spares support (Brian Davies) 2. 01:49 AM - Re: PH-DIY performance data (David Joyce) 3. 02:25 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 4. 03:40 AM - Re: Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill (Tim Ward) 5. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Paul McAllister) 6. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Kevin Klinefelter) 7. 06:01 AM - Re: Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill (Kevin Klinefelter) 8. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Peter Zutrauen) 9. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 10. 07:49 AM - Rudder - why are the many different aircraft designs not always mass balanced? (Peter Zutrauen) 11. 08:50 AM - Re: Anyone considered a ULPOWER UL260i engine (MalcolmH) 12. 10:20 AM - Re: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel filler (Bud Yerly) 13. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (david miller) 14. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Paul McAllister) 15. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 16. 04:19 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel filler (GRAHAM SINGLETON) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:58 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Company Spares support Hi Martin, They don't appear to have their act together yet regarding online ordering, following the introduction of a new stock control system. Although it is far from convenient for someone in the USA, telephone contact seems the best bet. This was also the case when Roger and John were handling spares supply. As with most companies, the more direct feedback we give them, good and bad, the better chance that they will respond to our needs. Regards Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin Tuck Sent: 13 May 2010 02:32 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Company Spares support Every time I look at the Parts and Accessories page on the Europa Aircraft website it just has 'tba' for the price so I don't see how you can order anything. Martin Tuck Europa N152MT Wichita, Kansas Brian Davies wrote: > There have been a number of complaints regarding the supply of spares > from the factory of late so I thought you might be interested in my > experience. Yesterday afternoon I spotted that one of the rubber > tubes connecting the carbs to the plenum chamber on my 912S was > cracked. I phoned Europa late afternoon and two new rubber tubes > arrived in the mail at 10 o'clock today. > > Can't get better than that! Clearly, if they have the part they work > hard to ship as soon as possible. > > Brian Davies ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:05 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: PH-DIY performance data Frans I generally fly at around 5000rpm but for that exercise I think I followed the Rotax table for RPM/MAP settings. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frans Veldman" Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 8:01 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: PH-DIY performance data > > On 05/12/2010 07:47 PM, David Joyce wrote: > >> Frans, For what it's worth my 914 Xs/normal top/mono + speed kit/ >> Woodcomp SR3000W/3blade does the following at >90%MaxAUW at 2000ft: >> TAS 120 Kts 14 l/hr >> ,, 130 ,, 19 ,, >> ,, 140 ,, 23 ,, > > Is this TAS indeed? My data was based on IAS. At 2000 feet I can add > about 4 knots to my speeds to get TAS. > Anyway, then my fuel consumption doesn't seem to be that high, I assume > this will improve a bit once the engine has been fully run in. > (Operating temperatures are still dropping, so I assume it is still > getting rid of excess friction). > >> We have found on many trips that extra wheels don't help, > > That's why I decided to get rid of one wheel, I'm happy with only three > wheels. ;-) > >> figures are pretty close to mine even so, assuming your ASI reads >> correctly > > The ASI has been calibrated (mandatory) and was found to be correct to 1 > knot over the entire range. The backup ASI (with separate pitot) agrees > with the primary ASI. > > Do you recall what RPM and MAP settings you normally use? > > Thanks, > > Frans > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:28 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 05/12/2010 09:25 PM, I wrote: > Now, before we go any further, print this out, and take it with you to > the hangar. > > Are you there? Fine. Someone pointed out to me that he found my post "condescending". I had to look up what this word means, but it wasn't a good thing. Now I'm very worried that more people considered my post with similar feelings. As my previous attempts to explain how I think the anti servo tab works failed, I thought that a "look and feel" experience would make clear what I mean. The idea that someone would try this out and imagining the light bulb going on, together with the comment that "I'm Donald Duck if it works that way" from the previous poster, was to me an invitation to put some humor into the description. I should have known. The balance between a humoristic description or a condescending description is very marginal, too marginal for a non native English writer like me. And on top of that is humor culture bound (On a Dutch forum this post would have provoked a few ROFL smileys and nobody would have taken offence, as we tend to be a little less formal and polite than some other cultures). So, I want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by my post, or considered it "condescending". It really was not meant that way. Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:20 AM PST US From: "Tim Ward" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill Bill, In the early days (1996)the manual stated that the plastic 'cobra' tube should be fibre glassed with Bid directly onto the fuselage skin in two places. It was then found on early models that exposure to the sun on a hot day would cause the cobra to expand and therefore deform the fuselage skin inwards. This happened to me. I then found via the builders web, that other people were reinforcing the inside fuse skin with BID layers and placing blue foam between the cobra and fuselage skin to absorb that expansion. I am not sure if that was a Europa Club Mod or Company Mod however it does avoid that deformation. I had to take my cobra out, push the skin back out with the help of hot water over the outside and my son pushing from the inside on a moulded piece of wood! Then reinforce the inside fuselage skin, blue foam between and replace the cobra with new Bid brackets. Why it happened to me? I left the aircraft out in the open on a very hot 33 degree C day without the reinforcement. Does it now say not to affix it to the fuseskin? If not, then do they expect it to support itself, or the cover to support it? Interesting. Hope this helps, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street' Fendalton, Christchurch. NEW ZEALAND Ph. 64 3 3515166 Mob 021 0640221 Email ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: "William McClellan" Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:42 PM Subject: Europa-List: Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill > > > I see in the archives that there has been a problem for some with the > fuselage skin wrinkling in the area of the plastic fuel fill tube. My > question is, why is it happening to only a few and is there a conclusive > reason for it happening? Maybe the fuel fill tube should not be affixed > to the inside skin of the fuselage as stated in the building manual but > instead allowed to be more of a floating fit so the rubber hose will take > up the expansion/contraction the plastic tube might be doing. Can anyone > give me the answer to this question? > Thanks, > Bill McClellan > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim From: Paul McAllister Frans, I certainly didn't perceive that from your descriptions. Your English grammar is impeccable, particularly so given that it is your second language. Perhaps the individual who took offense could give that some consideration. I wonder how many languages he speaks ? Paul do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:50 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim Paul, Your English grammar ain't bad (for an Aussie). This yank pretty much got the sense of humor, and even better, I think I gained a better understanding of how our tailplanes work. I looked at in flight photos of N211KA and at about 120knots the tabs indeed are even with the TP. Thanks Franz, Kevin ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:04 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill Hi Bill, I think there was a tech bulletin about this that recommends reinforcing with a couple layers of bid to the inside of the fuselage in that area. I ended up putting a coupe layers of carbon fiber in the whole area. I did not use foam between the cobra and fuse. With the light just right I can now see a very slight "print" of the bid that attaches the cobra to the fuse. Kevin ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim From: Peter Zutrauen On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 5:24 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: "As my previous attempts to explain how I think the anti servo tab works failed, I thought that a "look and feel" experience would make clear what I mean." The confusion around this topic (thus your "failure" ;-) may be (*at least it was in my case* :-P ) that one has to accept the fact that the design's torque tube placement results in a (symmetrical airfoil) tailplane is *aerodynamically balanced* for Frans' functional description to make sense. ie- no matter what the steady-state angle of incidence is of the tailplane, there are no resultant stick forces which need to be zero'd out by a portruding trim-tab ( which is the anti-servo tab in this case). This was a very hard sell for myself. I had always assumed that that the tailplane's torque-tube location was *slightly forward* of the aerodynamic balance point, to make sure that the tailplane would always aerodynamically "trail" and thus be inherently stable (since it is mass-balanced). My rational was that if the design was perfectly *aerodynamically* balanced about the torquetube, and a builder had somehow managed to move the fulcrum slightly *rearward* of the aerodynamic balance point (build tolerances?), then the tailplane would be inherently unstable and that would be a disaster waiting to happen (in that case, once the tailplane is moved slightly producing an AOA ><0, positive feedback would quickly take hold and slam it to the stop). So, if one were to go down the same **incorrect** thought path as myself (the trailing tailplane idea), then indeed the anti-servo tab would need to remain deflected out in the airflow to keep any AOA other than zero (and also performing the function of a flap? .. this visualization still makes my head hurt). So, since we are dealing with an "approaching perfect" design (an aerodynamically balanced tailplane), Frans' assertion of the anti-servo tab always nulling itself out is correct (boundary layer effects being ignored/taken care of by the flettner strips), regardless of airspeed, COG, airplane AOA etc. I'm still curious how close to perfectly aerodynamically balanced the tailplane design is. Don Dykins sure was a clever fellow. Cheers, Pete A239 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:44 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 05/13/2010 03:12 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > The confusion around this topic (thus your "failure" ;-) may be (/at > least it was in my case/ :-P ) that one has to accept the fact that the > design's torque tube placement results in a (symmetrical airfoil) > tailplane is *aerodynamically balanced* for Frans' functional > description to make sense. ie- no matter what the steady-state angle of > incidence is of the tailplane, there are no resultant stick forces which > need to be zero'd out by a portruding trim-tab ( which is the anti-servo > tab in this case). Ah, OK, now I see your point. I thought that this aerodynamically balance was the major "selling point" of the tailplane, and hence common knownledge amongst builders. I recall having read somewhere that the whole purpose of the mass balance arm is to cancel out the weight offset, which is a *result* of having the torque tube in the aerodynamic center, rather than in the weight center. I have to admit that it took me a while too before I grabbed the concept. The whole arrangement with the anti servo tabs which double duty as trim tabs at the same time is indeed a genious concept. If the anti servo tabs are always in line with the tailplane, there is never a drag penalty, regardless of trim setting. This is just one of the things that make the Europa a relatively fast airplane. Then you can maybe understand that I found it rather shocking to read that "all Europa's are flying with the trim tabs deflecting upwards"... as this would defeat the whole purpose of the ingenious anti servo tab and all flying tailplane. I was prepared to find a way to fix this problem once I would reach the flying stage... until I discovered to my delight that the PH-DIY doesn't suffer from this problem at all. I'm still curious however why some Europa's suffer this problem. > I'm still curious how close to perfectly aerodynamically balanced the > tailplane design is. Don Dykins sure was a clever fellow. Was Don Dykins responsible for the tailplane too? He was indeed a clever fellow. Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:24 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Rudder - why are the many different aircraft designs not always mass balanced? From: Peter Zutrauen Sorry folks..... Curious about that one too. Many designs are, many are not (like the Europa).... why? And how do the designs that are not get away with it? Does it have to do with the length of the rudder's moment-arm vs area? Is it the lack of any assymetrical G's (ie- gravity)? Thanks, "Totally in the dark" Pete :-P ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:41 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anyone considered a ULPOWER UL260i engine From: "MalcolmH" Thanks for your input 1). Length and clash with footwells: I have the Classic cowlings and I agree the engine length seems to be about 2.5" to 3" to long to be accommodated within these cowlings. I understand the XS cowlings are 4" longer so shouldn't be a problem with these. Of course the foot-wells on the classic aren't as long as the XS so I may have more room to play with. I tried comparing the UL260i with the 912 dimensions and the 912 looks to be even longer (563 as opposed to 523). ULPOWER have a 3d model of the engine (.stp) which can be downloaded. Does anyone have a 3d model of the europa? 2). Height I cant find a measurement for the height of the Rotax engine above the engine centreline; the UL260 is 177mm. Dont know if this would be within the top cowling. 3). Engine Choice I imagined the 260i at 97hp was more than capable of propelling the Europa. Especially as the 80hp 912UL is a popular choice. The 260i was as smooth running and quiet as the 912UL but without the complication of the dual carbs and water circuit etc. What were your reasons for preferring the higher horsepower model? 4). Cowling I would hope to apply minor modifications to the classic or XS cowling if a new one is required it wouldn't be for me. 5). Prop They say that Airmaster/Warp would be a good combination but not flight tested. 6). Fuel Economy. I agree most manufacturers give fuel economy at say 75% at 10000ft. I've been told (and shown records in a flight log book) that 12 - 15l/hr are being achieved on quite draggy airplanes. The Europa should match this, especially with a CS prop. I'm currently flying an Ikarus C42 with 912UL and on local flights economy is about 12l/hr but getting back from somewhere into a stiff headwind that goes up to about 15/16l/hr! 7). Prop Speed I had a private email concerning prop tip speed being high with direct drive engines. I cant get my head round how this should be any different from a geared engine. Any comments. I would want a fairly trouble free installation, if cowling's foot-wells, exhausts etc need modification I will stick with the 912. Thanks again for the inputs so far, any other thoughts? Regards Malcolm (Europa Mono 121) p.s. if anyone does post a comment which warrants a response, you wont get one for a couple of weeks as I'm on holiday from tomorrow Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297610#297610 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:35 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel filler  Photo E-mail Play slideshow | Download images Bill, I just saw your post on the list. I am sorry, I thought this was now common knowledge, and I apologize to everyone on the list. Sometimes I get tunnel vision on the way I advise my customers to build this area and don't pass it on. This method has been used successfully for quite a few years now and has been wrinkle free. If it ain't broke, I'm not fixing it. Problem: As the fuel vapors evaporate and vents out, it causes cooling in the PTFE fueling nozzle, the fuel filler tube shrinks and shrinks the fuselage skin along with it. Epoxy sticks to PTFE extremely well so any movement of the tube is translated directly to whatever it is attached to, namely the skin. The manual does not imply that the fuel filler tube should be separated a bit from the fuselage side and only held by the tapes, and not a floxed corner at the juncture of the filler tube to the fuselage (after all, we have gotten used to floxed corners). A little slop in the two glass straps, applied as described in the manual (too briefly), would limit the distortion. Many of us do not like to have a slightly floating fuel filler neck and this is the cure used by many of us. Correction: If you desire to fix your fuel nozzle, cap, and the filler tube solidly to the fuselage, the fuselage side must be reinforced. Put a 3/16 to 1/4 inch layer of blue foam with two layers of bid glass over the foam (similar to the forward wing support) to stabilize the fuel filler contact area to provide for support and prevent expansion/contraction skin deformations. The thickness of the foam will form a more rigid skin that extra glass alone may not correct as the skin is only 1/8 inch thick. Attach the nozzle with straps as described. One at the top, one near the bottom. Procedure I use at Custom Flight: 1. Open the hole in the fuselage top to allow the boss from the filler tube to pass through. 2. Align the fuel filler tube to the fuselage side and temporarily set it against the side of the aircraft, mark where the fuel tube will set and check that the rubber fuel hose will fit and not be folded or bent. 3. Cut a piece of scrap blue foam about 1/4 inch thick, and wider than the fuel tube by about an inch. Set the length from 1 inch minimum below the fuel filler top hole, and stop near the bottom of the flat part of the PTFE filler tube. 4. Affix the blue foam to the fuselage side with 5 minute floxed epoxy on the top and bottom edge and floxed Aeropoxy for the center. Clamp as necessary. Allow to cure. 5. When secure, chamfer the sides to a 45 and round the edges. Spread entirely with micro slurry and two layers of glass, and peel ply. 6. Refit the tube, mark the top for the filler cap flush with the outer fuselage and cut and install the filler cap. Check fit. Once fit is acceptable, Redux the top area around the filler cap inside and out, and affix with glass straps as described in the manual. Peel ply as you will be working around here later. 7. Once all is secure, attach the trimmed rubber fuel elbow and clamp. 8. Use Pro Seal on just the top and bottom points of the rubber fuel elbow if you are concerned about fuel leakage in the event of an overfill. Keep in mind, the fuel tube will have to be cut off to remove it if using Pro Seal (available at A/C Spruce.). 9. Attach fuel vent tubing as appropriate. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations US Dealer. ----- Original Message ----- From: William McClellan To: enquiries@europa-aircraft.co.uk Cc: Bud Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:01 PM Subject: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel fill I find only inconclusive information on the forum about fuselage skin distortion that can develop around the fuel fill tube. I can not find additional information. Would you steer me to the correct solution or give me any revised procedure. Thanks, Bill McClellan This MSN Photo E-mail slideshow will be available for 30 days. To share high quality pictures with your friends and family using MSN Photo E-mail, join MSN. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:53 PM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim Kevin, I seem to remember being reprimanded by Paul for calling him an Aussie, although it was more or less the right part of the world. Dave do not archive On 13-May-10, at 8:46 AM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: > Paul, Your English grammar ain't bad (for an Aussie). > This yank pretty much got the sense of humor, and even better, I > think I gained a better understanding of how our tailplanes work. > I looked at in flight photos of N211KA and at about 120knots the > tabs indeed are even with the TP. > Thanks Franz, > Kevin > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim From: Paul McAllister Heck no... I only get bent out of shape for being mistaken for a Brit.... :o) do not archive On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:38 PM, david miller wrote: > Kevin, > > I seem to remember being reprimanded by Paul for calling him an Aussie, > although it was more or less the right part of the world. > > Dave > > do not archive > On 13-May-10, at 8:46 AM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: > > Paul, Your English grammar ain't bad (for an Aussie). > This yank pretty much got the sense of humor, and even better, I think I > gained a better understanding of how our tailplanes work. > I looked at in flight photos of N211KA and at about 120knots the tabs > indeed are even with the TP. > Thanks Franz, > Kevin > > ** > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Paul "I only get bent out of shape for being mistaken for a Brit...." That's good to know in caseI thought you were from NZ! Ron Parigoris Do Not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:56 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel filler Bud=0AI see you used plastic tube for the breather. Makes me nervous rememb ering Harald Linke's refueling fire. I always use 3/8 versatube and ground it.=0AFuel vapour and droplets running up an insulated tube might act like a Van der Graff generator and cause a spark. My guess anyway.=0A=0AGraham =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Bud Yerly =0ATo: William McClellan =0ASent: Thursday, 13 May, 2010 18:19:04=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel filler =0A=0A=EF=BB =EF=BB =0A Photo E-mail =0A Play slid eshow | Download images =0A=0A=0AProcedure I use at Custom Flight:=0A =0A 1. Open the hole in the fuselage top to allow the boss from the =0Afiller tube to pass through.=0A2. Align the fuel filler tube to the fuselage sid e and =0Atemporarily set it against the side of the aircraft, mark where th e fuel tube =0Awill set and check that the rubber fuel hose will fit and no t be folded or =0Abent.=0A3. Cut a piece of scrap blue foam about 1/4 inch thick, and wider =0Athan the fuel tube by about an inch. Set the length f rom 1 inch =0Aminimum below the fuel filler top hole, and stop near the bot tom of the =0Aflat part of the PTFE filler tube.=0A4. Affix the blue foam to the fuselage side with 5 minute floxed =0Aepoxy on the top and bottom ed ge and floxed Aeropoxy for the =0Acenter. Clamp as necessary. Allow to cu re.=0A5. When secure, chamfer the sides to a 45 and round the edges. =0AS pread entirely with micro slurry and two layers of glass, and peel ply.=0A6 . Refit the tube, mark the top for the filler cap flush with the =0Aouter fuselage and cut and install the filler cap. Check fit. Once =0Afit is ac ceptable, Redux the top area around the filler cap inside and out, and =0Aa ffix with glass straps as described in the manual. Peel ply as you will =0Abe working around here later.=0A =0A7. Once all is secure, attach the t rimmed rubber fuel elbow and =0Aclamp.=0A8. Use Pro Seal on just the top a nd bottom points of the rubber fuel =0Aelbow if you are concerned about fue l leakage in the event of an overfill. =0AKeep in mind, the fuel tube will have to be cut off to remove it if using =0APro Seal (available at A/C Spr uce.).=0A =0A9. Attach fuel vent tubing as appropriate.=0A =0A =0A =0A =0ABud Yerly=0ACustom Flight Creations=0AUS Dealer.=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: William =0A> McClellan =0A>To: e nquiries@europa-aircraft.co.uk =0A>Cc: Bud =0A>Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:01 =0A> PM=0A>Subject: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel =0A> fill=0A> =0A>I find only inconclusive information on the forum about =0A> fuselage skin distortion that can develop around the fuel fill tube. I =0A> can no t find additional information. Would you steer me to the correct =0A> sol ution or give me any revised procedure.=0A>Thanks,=0A>Bill =0A>McClellan=0A >=0AThis MSN Photo E-mail slideshow will be available for 30 =0Adays.=0ATo share high quality pictures with your friends and family using MSN =0APhoto E-mail, join MSN. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.