---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/14/10: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:07 AM - Re: Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill (A B Milne) 2. 03:40 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 3. 04:52 AM - Outrigger leg failure (jim.naylor@talktalk.net) 4. 06:10 AM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (rampil) 5. 06:14 AM - Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? (rampil) 6. 06:49 AM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (Pete Lawless) 7. 07:53 AM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (Kevin Klinefelter) 8. 08:20 AM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (Fred Klein) 9. 08:58 AM - Outriggers (jim.naylor@talktalk.net) 10. 08:59 AM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (Robert Hatton) 11. 09:34 AM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 12. 10:04 AM - Outriggers (jim.naylor@talktalk.net) 13. 10:22 AM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (Fred Klein) 14. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Raimo Toivio) 15. 11:30 AM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (Kevin Klinefelter) 16. 11:48 AM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (Kevin Klinefelter) 17. 12:32 PM - 914 coolant temp (Fergus Kyle) 18. 12:47 PM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (Robert Hatton) 19. 12:56 PM - Re: Outrigger leg failure (rampil) 20. 01:05 PM - Re: 914 coolant temp (rampil) 21. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel filler (Bud Yerly) 22. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: 914 coolant temp (Paul McAllister) 23. 06:39 PM - Re: Re: 914 coolant temp (Bob Borger) 24. 08:45 PM - Instrument sub panel size & thickness (Tony Renshaw) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:28 AM PST US From: "A B Milne" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill My first had the problem which I cured by cutting the filler moulding-to-fuselage strap. I deduced that the problem was caused by the fuel tank distorting. Be patient - it took several months for the skin to iron itself out to the original. The strap was not fitted on my second Europa and I made sure there was a gap between the hard sections of the filling line within each hose section. There is no sign of skin distartion nearly two years after completion. G CEYK ----- Original Message ----- From: "William McClellan" Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:42 AM Subject: Europa-List: Skin wrinkling outside fuel fill > > > I see in the archives that there has been a problem for some with the > fuselage skin wrinkling in the area of the plastic fuel fill tube. My > question is, why is it happening to only a few and is there a conclusive > reason for it happening? Maybe the fuel fill tube should not be affixed > to the inside skin of the fuselage as stated in the building manual but > instead allowed to be more of a floating fit so the rubber hose will take > up the expansion/contraction the plastic tube might be doing. Can anyone > give me the answer to this question? > Thanks, > Bill McClellan > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:08 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim Don was responsible for all the flying surfaces.=0AI wonder if some Europas are not correctly mass balanced, it's not easy if there is any stiffness i n the pitch control (which I have seen too often)=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frans Veldman =0ATo: europa-list=0A=0AI'm still curious however why some Europa 's suffer this problem.=0A=0A> I'm still curious how close to perfectly aer odynamically balanced the=0A> tailplane design is. Don Dykins sure was a cl ever fellow.=0A=0AWas Don Dykins responsible for the tailplane too? He was === ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:44 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure From: jim.naylor@talktalk.net =0A=0AWe have had a recent failure of the nylon outrigger le gs on our mono. The material seems to have gone brittle an d simply snapped, despite 14 years of service during which t hey have been subject to quite sever bending on numerous occ asions when landing and taxing on rough strips without inciden t. They failed towards the end of a landing run on reasona bly smooth grass after a smooth touchdown on a lightly loade d aircraft, so they were not subjected to any abnormal loads . There is no sign of previous cracks or damage, they have simply snapped like match sticks. =0AI recall reading about some failures in cold climates, but have not heard of any problems in warmer climes. As most people know we have had a quite severe winter in the UK as far as I can remember the coldest since our Europa has been flying. So the ques tion is, has the properties of the material changed due to being exposed to sub zero temperatures, or has it work harde ned or age hardened? On the day they failed the temperature was about 12C, so one would expect the material to have re gained its flexibility.=0AAny one else had problems?=0AAlso any alternate material suggestions?=0AJim=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:51 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Outrigger leg failure From: "rampil" Nylon slowly depolymerizes in sunight leading to embrittlement, and 14 years of service should have slowly accumulated a number of small cracks due to constant flexing loads. Shouldn't these components be replaced at some interval? -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297709#297709 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:19 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anyone use D-sub connectors to connect instrument module? From: "rampil" My CPCs are mounted on the forward lateral bottoms of the IM. The center tunnel CPC is mounted forward bottom, above the port side of the tunnel. The "fuse" connectors are short pigtailed from the wall of the fuselage -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297710#297710 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:43 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure Jim Do I read this right - both legs failed on the same landing? No damage done I hope? Regards pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim.naylor@talktalk.net Sent: 14 May 2010 12:51 Subject: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure We have had a recent failure of the nylon outrigger legs on our mono. The material seems to have gone brittle and simply snapped, despite 14 years of service during which they have been subject to quite sever bending on numerous occasions when landing and taxing on rough strips without incident. They failed towards the end of a landing run on reasonably smooth grass after a smooth touchdown on a lightly loaded aircraft, so they were not subjected to any abnormal loads. There is no sign of previous cracks or damage, they have simply snapped like match sticks. I recall reading about some failures in cold climates, but have not heard of any problems in warmer climes. As most people know we have had a quite severe winter in the UK as far as I can remember the coldest since our Europa has been flying. So the question is, has the properties of the material changed due to being exposed to sub zero temperatures, or has it work hardened or age hardened? On the day they failed the temperature was about 12C, so one would expect the material to have regained its flexibility. Any one else had problems? Also any alternate material suggestions? Jim -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:18 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure Jim, I too have brought up this subject after several failures. There were lots of replies of lots of failures. Some say replace the nylon legs annually. I believe that nylon is just not the right material for this application. "There is no sign of previous cracks or damage, they have simply snapped like match sticks." I don't like that failure mode. I have had several failures, one of which ended with taking out my Airmaster Prop. That really hurt. "Also any alternate material suggestions?" I am testing out some legs made out of 5/8" fiberglass rod material from McMaster-Carr. I did some load testing in the shop to find that this 5/8" diameter rod has almost the same flex under the same load as the 1 1/4" nylon. However, it has a very different failure mode. It of course does not simply shatter like the nylon. The fibers in tension (on the "leading edge" of the installed leg flexing back) start to snap and separate from the rod. It is a more gradual failure. I think partial damage will show easily during preflight inspection, but I have not yet seen any. I have attached a drawing that shows the "bushings" that were made (from broken nylon legs) so the thinner fiberglass rod fits in our OR-1 and wheel fork. The complete legs are about 3 ounces lighter,each.So far they are doing well. I just installed them last month before flying to Florida from California and back. Now I am making new wheel forks to run 105mm inline skate wheels. These will have 5/8" ID tube so the lower nylon socket won't be needed. ----- Original Message ----- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:06 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure On May 14, 2010, at 7:17 AM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: > I too have brought up this subject after several failures. There > were lots of replies of lots of failures. Some say replace the nylon > legs annually. I believe that nylon is just not the right material > for this application. Kevin, I salute you for your analysis and thoughtful testing of an alternative to the nylon, as well as your idea to fabricate new wheel forks to match up w/ the skinny wheels...quite intriguing. Fred ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:32 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Outriggers From: jim.naylor@talktalk.net =0AYes both went within a short distance, I was not the pi lot at the time, one of our syndicate was flying it, fortu nately a very experienced and capable pilot. =0APort failed first causing a swing to the left, he managed to correct t he swing then the starboard one snapped. It was towards the end of the roll out, so the engine was at idle power and no other damage was sustained. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AJim=0A =0ADo I read this right =93 both legs failed on the same l anding?=0A =0ANo damage done I hope?=0A =0ARegards=0A =0Apete=0A=0A =0A ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:25 AM PST US From: "Robert Hatton" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure I had the starboard outrigger fail during a landing in January. This happened on a final landing after two other successful landings within the past hour of flying (none of the landings were touch and goes). I cannot remember the exact temperature but there was snow on the ground and I put the failure down to a combination of dry climate (I am based in Colorado USA) and cold temperatures making the leg brittle. Certainly the landing seemed fine and smooth and the leg just broke during the deceleration phase and not during the actual aircraft to ground contact phase of landing. After my first landing during the taxi back on the taxi-way, the outrigger that failed did get stuck briefly in a pile of snow, which I guess in hindsight would not have helped, although I completed a successful landing after this had happened. I had replaced the legs within the last two years and they were direct from the factory. The moment the outrigger departed and the wing dropped to the ground made me feel sick - the Airmaster propeller and gearbox had just been replaced on the aircraft and I was fully expecting the propeller to contact the runway. This all happened in an instant and I was concentrating on trying to keep the falling wing up with opposite aileron, steer straight and brake without nosing over so had no hands left to shut the engine down. It then became obvious that the propeller was ok and had not contacted the runway - which was a huge relief. Although I was fully expecting the underside of the wing to be a mess. Once I had stopped I had time to run the engine for a couple of minutes to correctly shut it down before hopping out to inspect the worst. Amazingly there was no damage to the wing, aileron or flaps. The stub of the outrigger that had been left after the break was worn down to the OR1, which had also been worn down at quite an angle, but this had left an inch clearance between the lowest point of the wing and the ground. I went from despair to elation in a split second! The damage was just to the outrigger and the OR1. Currently I am replacing both outrigger legs with MDS-Filled Nylon 6/6 Rod. This was a recommendation from the forum - I think Fred Klein - and I shall see how that goes. This I have sourced from McMaster-Carr and I found their ordering system and delivery excellent. This rod only seems to come in black, and is also very slightly lighter than the standard Nylon. It is meant to have greater strength than the standard nylon rod. I also ordered up the Easy-Roll Rubber tread wheel to try out, although I will be getting the inline skate wheel to try also. I have not found the "Easy-Roll" wheel to be particularly easy at rolling! The pair of wheels I have do not roll with ease at all, but I will try them first before the inline skate wheel. The only thoughts I have to this are that the OR1 saved my wing and probably propeller. I would consider replacing OR1 with a slightly longer version in order to provide more of a comfort clearance - that inch of space is very small and not far to go before greater damage. I also did think about the possibility of incorporating a spring between the OR1 and the outrigger in order to provide flexibility. Rigid enough to hold the two together but for any sharp impact allowing for flexibility. Robert Hatton ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:57 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure Kevin there was a lot of testing of the outriggers, many failures. The ny lon grade was chosen after a lot of experience and was the best available a lternative at the time, near 20 years ago. There may well be a better alter native now but factory don't have the technical enthusiasts to find it so i t's up to you guys I'm too old too!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________ ____________________=0AFrom: Fred Klein =0ATo: euro pa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, 14 May, 2010 16:18:31=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure=0A=0A=0A=0AOn May 14, 2010, at 7:17 AM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:=0A=0AI too have brought up this subject after seve ral failures. There were lots of replies of lots of failures. Some say repl ace the nylon legs annually. I believe that nylon is just not the right mat erial for this application.=0A=0AKevin,=0A=0AI salute you for your analysis and thoughtful testing of an alternative to the nylon, as well as your ide a to fabricate new wheel forks to match up w/ the skinny wheels...quite int =========================0A ======================== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:03 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Outriggers From: jim.naylor@talktalk.net =0AIt would seem there has been a number of failures in service of the nylon legs. Perhaps those who have had failur es could post there experiences - length of service both tim e and hours, type of runways normally used, temperature when failure occurred and minimum temperatures experienced etc. =0AI am sure this information would be of use to Europa in deci ding wether an alternate material is required.=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:49 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure On May 14, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Robert Hatton wrote: > Currently I am replacing both outrigger legs with MDS-Filled Nylon > 6/6 Rod. Robert, Thanks for your report on your outrigger failure...glad to hear that there was no damage to your aircraft. Twas not me who suggested use of MDS-filled nylon 6/6 rod...I know nothing of its properties. Re: wheels...I'm not familiar w/ "Easy-Rolls", but the 100 or 105 mm skate (or scooter) wheels spin silently forever...be advised that when buying them you will enter the world of ABEC ratings for various bearings...I opted for #9s but you can go for the ceramics for a few more bucks...I bought my inline wheels online at www.skates.com,,,bushes are also available to enable fitting within the SS forks. Related comment: From Kevin's drawing, he's apparently mastered the art of machining the factory-stock nylon rod...I had a devil of a time turning down my rods so that they might fit into the OR 1s. Fred ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:03 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim Frans and all of you: I woke upp last night and got a light like a lightning to my poor salesman brains. That was well before your message below. I have not visited my Europa and that is not necessary because of this question. You - Frans - are absolutely right! My mistake: I thought Europa=B4s tailplanes are like any other ordinary elevators. Because it=B4s natur to be all flying I understood it is very light to operate but I did not understand the real meaning of "aerodynamically balanced". I have always thought as follows: fore of the torque tube there is about 1/3 of tailplanes and behind there are 2/3 of tailplanes. That is why I have assumed there are aerodynamical forces but only let is say 2/3 - 1/3 = 1/3 when compared to "normal" solution like Cessna=B4s elevator. Finally now I understand the name of the game: without the antiservo function pitch would be totally w/o forces in the stick! Awful! When trimming that means we are in fact in-lining tailplanes with trimtabs to a certain desired position! I got some messages which were supporting my idea and for example Mr X from Z wrote "Now lets increase our speed to say 140 kts in straight and level flight without trimming . . . . . you and I both know that we will require a forward pressure on the stick which of course is a pain so we need to trim the tailplane so that aerodynamic forces are substitued for our mussle power. Now if Frans is correct, the trim tab will once again be aligned with the trailing edge of the tailplane so what the hell is providing the necessary force to hold the tailplane in the new position? The tab simply MUST be displaced to provide the necessary force to my way of thinking." That was exactly what I thought also. And answer is: there is NO necessary need for any force to hold the tailplane in the new position because it is happy with ANY position. That is why they (tailplanes and trim tabs) are always in-lined when trimmed properly. When trimming - you are in fact cleaning the entire system!!! The most genious part: what is keeping it there in the desired position? If the tailplanes try to move upp or down, trim tabs move automatically even more to same direction and that is why the are fixed just that position where pilot has trimmed them. And they stay here until new trimming or pilot force via stick. That is why I feel a bit or more frightened also: without antiservo function there would be not att all any idea what is the position of the tailplanes!!! No stick forces at all!!! Before flight I have always checked my tabs but from this point I will do it very carefully!!! Without them or that function I assume Europa will be a flying coffin. Until now I am happy I did that mod (mandatory in England) which enhanced trim tabs=B4s pins years ago!!! I remember I almost cancelled because I was tempted to imagine those trim tabs are nice but not totally necessary for safety!!! One interesting point also: obviously all the tailplanes which have been built perfectly, are perfectly also aerodynamically balanced. Like Frans=B4s Europa=B4s tailplanes. Then and only then the trim tabs are always lined with tailplanes when properly trimmed!!! My Europa and many other Europa=B4s trim tabs are (when watching photos) slightly deflected when cruising and the plane is trimmed. That means those tailplanes are not perfectly built = they are not perfectly aerodynamically balanced. Obviously it is hard to produce perfect shaped tailplanes when making foam tailplanes like mine but next generation tailplanes without foam structure are maybe "automatically" perfect. Frans, thanks for patience. Frans, thanks for educating me and some other persons on the globe. Frans, thanks for you because now I understand a bit more my plane and respect it much more. I did not feel at all "Someone pointed out to me that he found my post "condescending". " They say some Dutch people are a bit arrogant but you - Frans - are not. Just brilliant. I am pround we are in the same list and fly same plane. *** OK. I am a Donald Duck. Kwaak kwaak kwaa. But I am a happy duck. That is because - my nephews are talent. - I have a nice career in a fat factory. - my uncle (Scrooge) have some nice jets, bush planes, DC-3 and many others and I am able to fly them all, also IFR in Alaska through snow storms. - my uncle is the richiest duck in the world and some day I will be his heir. - my girlfriend Iines Duck is very atractive. - my daughters love Donald D. Frans - next time I will consider a bit more before I think you are wrong. You are wrong probably very seldom, I assume. Would be nice to meet you in Texel next autumn. I give you some extra present: have you earlier seen a Duck on the wing behind a running star engine? Raimo (cheekbones totally red) aka DD Terveisin, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4 p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio@fly.to www.rwm.fi -------------------------------------------------- From: "Frans Veldman" Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 10:25 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim > > > On 05/12/2010 05:17 PM, Donald Duck wrote: > >> What faster we fly that more we get lift by >> wings. >> That is why we have to push more or trim nose >> down = trim tabs move upp >> when flying faster. >> The stabilators=B4 trailing edges move then down. > > YES! And the story doesn't end here. > Now, before we go any further, print this out, > and take it with you to > the hangar. > > Are you there? Fine. > 1) Put the trim in the middle, and line up the > tailplane and anti servo > tab by rotating the tailplane. If done properly, > the tailplane is in > about its "neutral" position when it lines up > with the anti servo tab. > 2) Now, trim the nose down with your trim > button. Anti servo tabs moves > up (assuming you wired everything correctly). > 3) Let's play aerodynamics. Your hand is the > airstream. The anti servo > trim "sticks out" in the airstream. Push with > your hand on the anti > servo tab to imitate the aerodynamic forces. > 4) Now LOOK! The anti servo tab goes down. Due > to some ingenious > mechanical linking the trailing edge of the > tailplane also moves down > (this is why you trimmed the nose down after > all). > But most important: The anti servo tab moves > faster down than the > tailplane. While pushing the anti servo tab > downward, it will at some > moment be in line with the tailplane. Stop when > you reach that moment. > This is your newly trimmed out position! > 5) Now stare at it for a while, and consider > what you just did. Try it > the other way around. > 6) Start wondering why the anti servo tab would > remain sticking out in > the airstream by itself while nobody is keeping > it there. Also try > moving the trailing edge of the tailplane down > without the anti servo > tab moving twice as fast downwards as well. It > can't be done! > 7) Congratulations! You just discovered that an > anti servo tab is not a > regular trim tab! A regular trim tab is held in > a fixed position and has > no choice. An anti servo tab can move, seek the > most convenient > position, and as a consequence take the > tailplane with it. > >> They have to be un-lined normally, more or >> less! >> >> If not I am a Donald Duck! > > Quack. :-D > >> That is why we usually and almost always see >> them (trimtabs) in >> deflected position only. >> I am sure you will confirm that when you get >> take more photos. > > If the opportunity exists, I will show it to you > so you can see it with > your own eyes. > > Frans > > =========== > browse > Un/Subscription, > Chat, FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List =========== > Web Forums! =========== > List Admin. =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:14 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure I had the left one fail while taxi turning right at an average fast walking speed. When the leg breaks, the wigtip just clears the ground. But the noise you may hear from the OR-1 grinding on the pavement made me want to stop right now! The glider pilot in me probably took over and I think I applied the brake. That's the wrong thing to do, especially in a turn away from the low wing. It will nose over MUCH easier in that configuration. That was it for the prop, and the wingtip lost some paint. I had another one break on a bouncy landing with my insructor in the right seat.No brake applied and some loss of directional control. Damage was limited to the OR-1. I broke another on a bounced go-around. I thought I heard it break, but of course you can't see it from the cockpit. I made a low pass and saw it littering the runway.That inspired me to do a good landing (finally) and hold the wing up with aileron to a full stop with brake after slowing and turning slightly toward the broken side. I broke one in the hanger. I was pushing down on the wing tip to see the flex of my newly replaced outrigger and it shattered. All these failures happened in above freezing temps, but I did not record actual temps. I bought replacement Nylon 6/6 from McMaster. Look at the data sheets before deciding on the MDS-filled Nylon (available on McMaster site). As I recall, it is no better for this application. I'll let ya'll know if I ever break one of my fiberglass legs. Kevin N211KA ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:18 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure Twas not me who suggested use of MDS-filled nylon 6/6 rod...I know nothing of its properties. I think it was Erich Trombley that said he was using the above... Re: wheels...I'm not familiar w/ "Easy-Rolls", but the 100 or 105 mm skate (or scooter) wheels spin silently forever...be advised that when buying them you will enter the world of ABEC ratings for various bearings...I opted for #9s but you can go for the ceramics for a few more bucks...I bought my inline wheels online at www.skates.com,,,bushes are also available to enable fitting within the SS forks. Thanks for that link, they have good service and reasonable prices. Related comment: From Kevin's drawing, he's apparently mastered the art of machining the factory-stock nylon rod...I had a devil of a time turning down my rods so that they might fit into the OR 1s. I am fortunate to have a friend close by with a lathe and a milling machine in his garage. He made the drawing and turned the rod into the part drawn. I plan to get with him on drawing up new slim forks for the skate wheels to go with the 5/8" fiberglass legs. Kevin N211KA ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:41 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: 914 coolant temp Greetings, The Rorax Corp insists on a coolant temp reading and suggests I believe the horizontal section of tubing exiting the reservoir (in amongst a sea of various components - and a real hardship to acquiesce. On the other hand, there's a kind open section vertical down towards the rad, which tempts as an alternative. Methinks there's not much difference in the temps twixt one and t'other. It might lose a degree or two en route. Has someone pronounced on this? Thanks, Ferg ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:07 PM PST US From: "Robert Hatton" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure Sorry Fred, I must have got mixed up for I was looking at wheels at the same time as outrigger material etc. Apologies if I caused any confusion. Robert From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger leg failure On May 14, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Robert Hatton wrote: Currently I am replacing both outrigger legs with MDS-Filled Nylon 6/6 Rod. Robert, Thanks for your report on your outrigger failure...glad to hear that there was no damage to your aircraft. Twas not me who suggested use of MDS-filled nylon 6/6 rod...I know nothing of its properties. Re: wheels...I'm not familiar w/ "Easy-Rolls", but the 100 or 105 mm skate (or scooter) wheels spin silently forever...be advised that when buying them you will enter the world of ABEC ratings for various bearings...I opted for #9s but you can go for the ceramics for a few more bucks...I bought my inline wheels online at www.skates.com,,,bushes are also available to enable fitting within the SS forks. Related comment: From Kevin's drawing, he's apparently mastered the art of machining the factory-stock nylon rod...I had a devil of a time turning down my rods so that they might fit into the OR 1s. Fred ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:13 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Outrigger leg failure From: "rampil" I don't believe nylon polymer is the wrong material for the application. When new it is probably a lot better in flex than some sort of FRP. Fourteen years just seems a really long time to have any sort of plastic exposed to UV. Inspection of condition should include a hand lens for checking and small cracks. There is a UV-resistant nylon which is unfortunately black in color. Even lexan polycarbonate windshields will deteriorate after 14 years in sunlight. FRP will need to painted with UV-resistant primer for protection from the sun also. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297778#297778 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:34 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 914 coolant temp From: "rampil" Hi Ferg, Actually, it is Rotax's intent that airframe manufacturers measure the reservoir temp, not individual builders. The idea is to be absolutely sure that the engine cooling system never allows the coolant to rise to a temp which would ruin (anneal) the cylinder heads! Of course, since Europa never did this test, it is up to you. On the 912s, like mine, it was the paragon of simplicity to cut the rubber coolant hose about two inches from the reservoir outlet and use the Lockwood-supplied t-splice to place a thermistor in the coolant stream. The hottest common point in the coolant system is the reservoir, so your measurement point must be as close as possible! A more accurate system would put a thermistor in the coolant drain line from each cylinder, but lets not go crazy here ;-) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297779#297779 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:47 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel filler I prefer to ground my system through the fuel drains which I ground via wire to the main grounding point to prevent that. Static electricity in a tube like that or during fueling where the fuel filling source and aircraft are not grounded is dangerous. Anyway, I think your point has merit. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: GRAHAM SINGLETON To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:14 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel filler Bud I see you used plastic tube for the breather. Makes me nervous remembering Harald Linke's refueling fire. I always use 3/8 versatube and ground it. Fuel vapour and droplets running up an insulated tube might act like a Van der Graff generator and cause a spark. My guess anyway. Graham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Bud Yerly To: William McClellan Sent: Thursday, 13 May, 2010 18:19:04 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel filler =EF=BB =EF=BB Photo E-mail Play slideshow | Download images Procedure I use at Custom Flight: 1. Open the hole in the fuselage top to allow the boss from the filler tube to pass through. 2. Align the fuel filler tube to the fuselage side and temporarily set it against the side of the aircraft, mark where the fuel tube will set and check that the rubber fuel hose will fit and not be folded or bent. 3. Cut a piece of scrap blue foam about 1/4 inch thick, and wider than the fuel tube by about an inch. Set the length from 1 inch minimum below the fuel filler top hole, and stop near the bottom of the flat part of the PTFE filler tube. 4. Affix the blue foam to the fuselage side with 5 minute floxed epoxy on the top and bottom edge and floxed Aeropoxy for the center. Clamp as necessary. Allow to cure. 5. When secure, chamfer the sides to a 45 and round the edges. Spread entirely with micro slurry and two layers of glass, and peel ply. 6. Refit the tube, mark the top for the filler cap flush with the outer fuselage and cut and install the filler cap. Check fit. Once fit is acceptable, Redux the top area around the filler cap inside and out, and affix with glass straps as described in the manual. Peel ply as you will be working around here later. 7. Once all is secure, attach the trimmed rubber fuel elbow and clamp. 8. Use Pro Seal on just the top and bottom points of the rubber fuel elbow if you are concerned about fuel leakage in the event of an overfill. Keep in mind, the fuel tube will have to be cut off to remove it if using Pro Seal (available at A/C Spruce.). 9. Attach fuel vent tubing as appropriate. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations US Dealer. ----- Original Message ----- From: William McClellan To: enquiries@europa-aircraft.co.uk Cc: Bud Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:01 PM Subject: Fuselage skin distortion at fuel fill I find only inconclusive information on the forum about fuselage skin distortion that can develop around the fuel fill tube. I can not find additional information. Would you steer me to the correct solution or give me any revised procedure. Thanks, Bill McClellan This MSN Photo E-mail slideshow will be available for 30 days. To share high quality pictures with your friends and family using MSN Photo E-mail, join MSN. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: 914 coolant temp From: Paul McAllister Hi All, I recently replaced the coolant hoses on my engine so while I had them all off I put a thermister in the reservoir. To do this I needed to TIG weld on a patch of aluminum to make it thick enough so I could put a thread in it for the temperature sensor. To be honest, unless you have a particular reason to be pulling it apart using the use the Lockwood-supplied t-splice is much easier. General question to the forum. I have often wondered if the heads got annealed if it would be practical to have them heat treated. I would assume that the value guide inserts and the seats would have to be removed and re installed after treatment. Thoughts anyone ? Paul ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:24 PM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: 914 coolant temp Paul, Unfortunately, the answer is no. Go to Europa Owners photo gallery, page 2 and select the Lockwood School album. Go to page two of that album, Picture DSCN5124 and SDCN5125 to see what happens when you anneal one of the heads. It almost always means a new head and cylinder because you probably won't know it happened till the head bolts won't stay tight and the damage has been done by the combustion gasses. Best regards, Bob Borger On Friday, May 14, 2010, at 04:14PM, "Paul McAllister" wrote: > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:19 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Instrument sub panel size & thickness > I am interested in what type of metal sheet is recommended for > instrument sub panels, and any advice on how close to the outside > edges of the main panel I should remove, or whether it is limited by > the ply inserts? I am not in the same state as my panel so I can't > check, but to "maxise" the main sub- panel size, should I disregard > the ply reinforcing and tailor strengthen my own attach points? I > would also be interested to know what method of attachments has > worked for others. All help appreciated. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.