---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/15/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:44 AM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Frans Veldman) 2. 03:22 AM - Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material (jglazener) 3. 03:36 AM - coolant temp (Fergus Kyle) 4. 04:15 AM - Re: coolant temp (rampil) 5. 05:00 AM - Re: Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material (Frans Veldman) 6. 05:08 AM - Engine mods (Frans Veldman) 7. 07:31 AM - SS Ball joints (Paul McAllister) 8. 07:43 AM - Re: SS Ball joints (Jeff B) 9. 08:09 AM - Re: SS Ball joints (Paul McAllister) 10. 09:12 AM - Re: Engine mods (Bob Borger) 11. 10:37 AM - Re: SS Ball joints (Fred Klein) 12. 11:44 AM - source of our shared affliction (Fred Klein) 13. 12:10 PM - Re: Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material (Fred Klein) 14. 01:06 PM - Re: Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material (rparigoris) 15. 01:37 PM - Re: Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material (rparigoris) 16. 06:31 PM - Re: SS Ball joints (rparigoris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:47 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim On 05/14/2010 07:21 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > When trimming that means we are in fact in-lining tailplanes with > trimtabs to a certain desired position! Well, I hoped to see a lightbulb switching on, but you lit the whole X-mas tree! We had a good laugh over here. :-D > One interesting point also: obviously all the tailplanes which have been > built perfectly, are perfectly also aerodynamically balanced. > Like Franss Europas tailplanes. This is a compliment to the factory as I got the "accelerated kit" with the tailplanes built by the factory. Then again, I don't think you need to have perfectly aerodynamically balanced tailplanes. Now we agree about the function of the anti servo tabs, we can go back to my previous statement about the mass balance weight. The balance of the tailplane and anti servo tabs is not purely aerodynamic, it is the result of all forces acting upon the system: 1) If the pilot pulls or pushes on the stick, the tailplane will rotate, the anti servo tabs rotate even further, and this imbalance is countered against the force the pilot is exercising. This means we have a stable position here with the anti servo tabs pushing the system some way, and the pilot pushing it the other way. The trim tabs stay deflected then, because they provide the counter force to null out the pilots unconsious input. 2) If the tailplane is not weight balanced correctly, it has a tendency to rotate by itself, and the anti servo tabs need to balance this tendency out. Again we get a situation where weight is trying to get the tailplane rotating this way, and the anti servo tabs trying to undo this. There is a balance, but this balance is not with the anti servo tabs lined out behind the tailplane. So, in both situations, you won't get the anti servo tabs to line up with the tailplane. What can go wrong: 1) The pilot. When I was learning to fly, the instructor had a habit of ripping my hands of the yoke, which immediately revealed whether I had trimmed the airplane incorrectly. Often I was sure I had trimmed correctly, but apparently it is easy to unconciously exercise a force upon the yoke or stick. So as a student I quickly developed the habit to "let go of the stick" after trimming to make sure it is really trimmed and get the tension of my muscles out of the equation. Maybe everyone does this, maybe not. Anyway, keep this in mind: with the Europa design you can possible gain a few knots by making sure the tailplane is perfectly trimmed for the intended speed: let go of that stick! 2) The mass balance weight. As said before, I got through the hassle to disconnect the pitch tube to really balance out the tailplane. Still then, it is difficult to balance it with the frictions and inertia involved. When I thought by moving the trailing edge of the tailplane up and down that the system was in balance, I double checked with an elastic band... and discovered that humans are not able to compare a lifting force against a pushing force very well. So, tape an elastic band to the trailing edge, put a mark somewhere, and start pulling the trailing edge up or down. Measure the distance between the mark and the trailing edge with a ruler, exactly at the moment the tailplane actually starts moving. Do this also the other way. Goal is to have the trailing edge moving with the same stretch of the elastic band pulling up and pulling down. If you are flying around with the anti servo tabs deflected upwards, it could mean the mass balance weights are a tad too heavy, or the pilot is unconsiously pulling on the stick. The weight of the pilot's arm is enough to disturb the delicate balance. If you are sure both of these are really ok, then there is a last resort: You could connect a spring or bungee to the pitch push rod, and "preload" it in the correct direction. This is however where my understanding of the system ends: I'm not sure if this could induce flutter. Then again, it is not different than a pilot unconsiously pushing or pulling on the stick, and the system seems to cope with that very well. This corrective bungee gets into the equation and can get the balance so that the anti servo tabs line up behind the tailplane, and this could gain you a few knots. I had it all worked out, assuming that ALL Europa's had this deflected trim tab defect... and then discovered that my Europa doesn't need it at all. :-) > Frans - next time I will consider a bit more before I think you are wrong. > You are wrong probably very seldom, I assume. Well, I wouldn't guarantee that. In fact, I just keep my mouth shut if I do not have a strong feeling that I'm right. ;-) Quite a lot of other people had the same knowledge about the tailplane, but most of them didn't bother to convince the rest of us. I was prepared to leave it as well, but your Donald Duck thing was just too provocative. ;-) > Would be nice to meet you in Texel next autumn. Nice to hear that you are coming! We might also show up in Popham next month. > I give you some extra present: have you earlier seen a Duck on the wing > behind a running star engine? Nice picture! :-D Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:58 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material From: "jglazener" Having finished the bottom fuselage I am now starting work on the top. This brings me in contact with something I have managed to avoid so far- electrics. This revolves around the fact that I know b....r all about it, let alone for aircraft. But now I can't put it off any more. Wiring the trim motor, antenna, ceiling panel etc. Not knowing where to start I have request. Does anyone have, or would be able to make, a rough Bill of Material for the stuff I would need, so that I could order that in one go and have it available as "as required" material? Things like wiring, connectors, fasteners, ty-raps, grommets, whatever. I know it will depend on what I put in but basically I am looking for a minimum setup, albeit with Dynon Efis and wing leveler. The most important thing is getting started so I am not looking for 100% accuracy at this stage. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I can also be reached off line at j.glazeneratplanet.nl Jeroen http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=44165&g2_GALLERYSID=235076301ceb499110f606bc2891bd0e Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297813#297813 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:33 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: coolant temp Ira, Thanks for the swift reply. I appreciate that the reservoir contains the highest temp (down a smidge from the cylinder manifolds I guess) and would love to tap the temp there - I see Paul has done the reservoir tap? - but cannot I just allow say 10 degrees below the allowable as my maximum. I was hoping the drop wouldn't be greater than that. I have NO idea at what flow the coolant passes my proposed site. I just supposed the foot or so travel would not be so very different, in that it is headed for the radiator at a certain pace. If as you say, the need for the gauge is less than critical (CHT's are monitored) perhaps the mod will lie in obeisance for a while. Cheers, Ferg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:37 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: coolant temp From: "rampil" Hi Ferg, The reason Rotax requested that this temp be measured (at least once) per design is that they did not want to engage in the guessing game. Anyway, my coolant temps are essentially equal to my CHT and Oil temps under most conditions -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297815#297815 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:57 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material On 05/15/2010 12:21 PM, jglazener wrote: > Having finished the bottom fuselage I am now starting work on the > top. This brings me in contact with something I have managed to avoid > so far- electrics. Well, that's the fun part! :-D No sticky, allergy provocing stuff, just connecting some wires. > Not knowing where to start I have request. Does anyone have, or would > be able to make, a rough Bill of Material for the stuff I would need, It largely depends on how you want to connect everything. Do you want to crimp? Then get decent crimping tools. Do you want to solder? Then get the appropriate tools for that. How do you want to fuse everything? Car-style fuse, or circuit breakers? Fuse each single item, or just "instrument panel", "fuel pump", and "flying controls"? At least you need cutters, a decent stripper (teflon wire is a nightmare to strip if using the inappropriate tools), heat shrink tube in various diameters, a heat gun, and if you are over 40, reading glasses. First make a plan. Map each item that needs to be wired. Plan where you locate your "ground". Near the engine is an obvious choice (I used a bolt through the firewall for that, so on both sides I can add ring connectors for various items requiring a ground). I also used another common ground behind the cockpit, because I have lots of other items located in that area. Then plan the diameters of the wires. Data/signal wires can be the smallest size, the other sizes depends on the fuses you are going to use: If you use a 3 Amp fuse for something, the wire has to be able to withstand 3 Amp's at least (otherwise the wire will protect the fuse). You can find tables on the internet for this. (If you plan to buy wires from an American source, be prepared for the confusing fact that if the number increases, the diameter gets smaller). For ground cables, use at least the same diameter as the power cable, add the amount of amps together if you share the ground cable over various items. I like to keep the ground cable at least 1 step thicker than required. Then, after you have carefully planned the routing of the cables, calculate the length of wires you need, and increase that with 50%. Oh, and keep your antenna cables and strobe cables out of the way of data cables as much as possible, plan a different routing for these. I would recommend to use teflon insulated wires. ACS sells these. For every single item, look at its connection possibilities. Some devices have a connector already attached to it, so it is a no-brainer. Just get the opposite sex in the desired variant (crimp or solder). For other things, like the trim servo, I would suggest to solder wires directly to them. Connectors are a common fault source, and why use a connector for something you don't plan to take out regularly? I even cut off connectors from some items that came with a connector, and hard wired them. For bundling the wires, use tie wraps. I bought the "cobra" type from ACS, as they don't have the sharp ends that tend to scratch you whenever you reach behind a cable. They sold them only by a lot of 1000, so I still have plenty of these. I can send you some if you want. But in the beginning I would use "scrap" quality of tie wraps, as you will find yourself adding new wires regularly. Leave the final wrapping until the very end! And forget to order everything at once, but plan to do this in stages, as when you are progressing you will change plans often. If you really get stuck, call for help. Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:58 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Engine mods I came across a site where they developed a fuel pump for the Rotax engines. No big news probably for the 912 owners, but interesting for the 914 owers, as this is a mechanically driven pump intended to fully replace one of the electrical fuel pumps! So, if you want your engine completely independent from the battery and alternator, now you have the choice! http://www.billetpump.com/home2/pumps.html Another thing I found is the idea to add fuel injection to the Rotax, but keeping the carbs at the same time for redundancy. The carbs then double duty as a throttle body for the EFI. And if the EFI failes, you can fall back on the carbs. In fact, when running on the carbs the engine is just "stock". See attached picture. Any comments? Frans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:51 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: SS Ball joints From: Paul McAllister Hi All, Would anyone happen to know a source for these in 1.5" http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/swivelballjoints.php Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:13 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: SS Ball joints Paul, Just for consideration... would it be possible to slide the 1.5" tube (presumably about 1.75" on the OD) into the 1.75" ball joints and weld? Jeff - Baby Blue 500+ hours On 5/15/2010 9:30 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: > Hi All, > > Would anyone happen to know a source for these in 1.5" > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/swivelballjoints.php > > Thanks, Paul > > * > > > * > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: SS Ball joints From: Paul McAllister That would work, but there isn't much room where I am thinking of putting this, so smaller is better. Cheers, Paul no dot archive On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Jeff B wrote: > > Paul, > > Just for consideration... would it be possible to slide the 1.5" tube > (presumably about 1.75" on the OD) into the 1.75" ball joints and weld? > > Jeff - Baby Blue > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:50 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Engine mods Frans, I have an album about the Billet Pump on my Europa Owners Gallery. I have not completed the installation yet as I'm in India for the month of May. I'll get back to it once I return home. It looks like an excellent solution for replacing one of the electric pumps with a mechanical pump. It is supposed to be capable of putting out more fuel at a higher pressure than both pumps together. It has its own pressure regulator to provide the necessary pressure to the standard Rotax provided fuel pressure regulator. Dan at Billet has been great to work with. I'll let folks know how thing go once I get it all installed and running. As for the fuel injection... Well it could be great. Let us know how it goes ;^} Check SIx, Bob Borger On Saturday, May 15, 2010, at 07:08AM, "Frans Veldman" wrote: >I came across a site where they developed a fuel pump for the Rotax engines. >No big news probably for the 912 owners, but interesting for the 914 >owers, as this is a mechanically driven pump intended to fully replace >one of the electrical fuel pumps! So, if you want your engine completely >independent from the battery and alternator, now you have the choice! > >http://www.billetpump.com/home2/pumps.html > >Another thing I found is the idea to add fuel injection to the Rotax, >but keeping the carbs at the same time for redundancy. The carbs then >double duty as a throttle body for the EFI. >And if the EFI failes, you can fall back on the carbs. In fact, when >running on the carbs the engine is just "stock". > >See attached picture. > >Any comments? > >Frans > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:58 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: SS Ball joints On May 15, 2010, at 7:30 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: > Would anyone happen to know a source for these in 1.5" > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/swivelballjoints.php Paul, Let me know if you find one...I'm looking for the same assembly for 2.25" joint. I have a query in at AS&S...no answer as yet... Fred ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:34 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: source of our shared affliction "When once you have tasted flight; you will walk the earth, forever more, with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return." Leonardo da Vinci, 1452-1519 do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:44 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material On May 15, 2010, at 3:21 AM, jglazener wrote: > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Jeroen, I know exactly how you feel...I've found Bob Nicholl's book, The AeroElectric Connection, to be a very useful resource...available at www.aeroelectric.com .. I've also found it useful to enlarge the 3 view drawings in the build manual and use them to plan out routing, connectors, etc. Good luck, Fred ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:54 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material From: "rparigoris" Hi Jeroen As far as wiring: "The most important thing is getting started" "Any help would be greatly appreciated." First off I agree with you, just get started. Also agree with Fred good second step to buy Bobs book. A good third step start reading Aeroelectric newsgroup (with pictures): http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3 I purchased a complete wiring harness/kit from John Hurst in Florida when I picked up my kit, supposedly everything needed with directions. I am not using it. Would be willing to sell it cheap in case you are interested. Way too generic for my needs. rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us You best make schematic first. In below links are all my schematics. For steps four on see (some info what to do before bond on): http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30472 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27687 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=35521 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27522 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28612 Simple drawings are OK to keep you on track. There are some at end of panel gallery: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27305&g2_page=1 Another good thing would be to find someone and become friendly (bribes help here) who knows about such things, an old timer radio/TV guy? Ham? Another homebuilder? Best of luck. Don't try and eat the whole wedding cake in one bite, you will almost for certain choke. Take one bite size piece at a time. IMHO best have two projects running in background of build: Wiring Filling and sanding. Work on one till you can't take it anymore and go do something else. Then go to the other till you can't take it anymore and go onto something else. Of course you could hire someone to either do most all, or only portion/s. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297846#297846 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:22 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electrics- Help requested for Electrics Bill of Material From: "rparigoris" Just noticed you posted some pics to gallery. As far as the anti servo trim tab servo goes, you can greatly increase chance of never having a problem with servo by adding some form of captured nut (can't very easily get to them when fin is on) which will never be used! I used small diameter of hex Allen screws and purchased a ball end Allen driver to allow easier removal. I forgot who did it, but someone made a BID pocket to hold half the servo negating the need to get to the hard to get to screw. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297847#297847 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:06 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: SS Ball joints From: "rparigoris" Hi Paul You can try giving Dawley a call: http://www.dawley.net/products.html if they can't provide, ask them who can. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297864#297864 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.