Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:38 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10 (Twigg, Alan)
2. 12:38 AM - Re: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic?? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
3. 12:52 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10 (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
4. 04:12 AM - Europa News (Raimo Toivio)
5. 06:39 AM - Old trim wiring (mau11)
6. 06:44 AM - Realistic price for 914F3? (zwakie)
7. 06:47 AM - Re: Europa News (G-IANI)
8. 12:41 PM - Re: Old trim wiring (Raimo Toivio)
9. 01:14 PM - Re: Old trim wiring (Robert C Harrison)
10. 05:23 PM - (Fergus Kyle)
11. 05:23 PM - Whither Aviation OFF TOPIC (Fergus Kyle)
12. 06:28 PM - Garmin info (Fergus Kyle)
13. 08:59 PM - Re: Re: Old trim wiring (mau11)
14. 09:50 PM - Re: Re: Old trim wiring (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
Message 1
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Subject: | RE: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10 |
Has anyone fitted retracting outriggers to the motorglider wing? My
wings are getting tantalisingly close, just wish the fuselage was
keeping up.
Alan Twigg
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa-List
Digest Server
Sent: 26 May 2010 07:58
Subject: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10
*
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Total Messages Posted Tue 05/25/10: 6
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:06 AM - Re: Outrigger wheel fork (Kevin Klinefelter)
2. 01:02 PM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim
(JonSmith)
3. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim
(Raimo Toivio)
4. 02:54 PM - Trim and such (Fergus Kyle)
5. 03:31 PM - XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic?? (Tony Renshaw)
6. 06:26 PM - Re: Outrigger wheel fork (Fred Klein)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 11:06:09 AM PST US
From: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger wheel fork
Erich,
Your fully retracting outriggers into the wings are very slick! And the
wheel forks, so simple. I bet they are a lot lighter than the original
wheel and fork.
Kevin
N211KA XS Mono 914
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 01:02:38 PM PST US
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim
From: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailplane was based on the
principle of a
FULLY aerodynamically balanced "all moving" tailplane, this being the
perfect
situation for efficiency. (Jos - MY interpretation of "aerodynamically
balanced"
being specifically related to an "all moving" tailplane that is not
deflected
at all from it's current position by it's relative airflow, including
any changes
to that airflow, ie the center or point of the lifting force (downforce)
generated by the tailplane acts through the pivot (torque tube))
However, IF Graham's info about the C of L being deliberately designed
to be NOT
quite acting through the pivot (due to this short period oscillation -
whatever
that is!) is true, and I am very pleased and interested to bow to his
most
extensive experience of the Europa development and learn about this,
then this
means that the Europa tailplane is not quite perfectly aerodynamically
balanced.
Thus, unless the Angle of Attack of the tailplane is at any time zero
(most
unlikely) then a small tab deflection in the relevant direction would be
required
to counter the rotating force created on the tailplane by the airflow.
(I would class this as another "unwanted" rotational force as in my
previous
text under variances!). This rotating force - and the corresponding
amount of
tab deflection required to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would
vary slightly
depending on the relative airflow to the tailplane and the corresponding
amount of lift (downforce) being generated. This aerodynamic imbalance
of
the tailplane must I feel only be slight - the whole downforce generated
by the
tail is fairly small and is needed just to balance the wing's own
imbalance
of forces.
(Question - WHY then are some people's tabs completely flush in steady
trimmed
flight.....?!)
This aside though, I still fully stand by my comments of how the
tailplane, especially
the tabs work in principle. The tabs, when trimmed by the pilot
correctly,
hold the tailplane in the desired position as set by the elevator
control.
The tabs would ideally be flush (fully aerodynamically balanced
tailplane)
but will have a permanent, slightly variable deflection if Graham's info
on the
tailplane not being fully aerodynamically balanced is true (as I'm sure
it
is..!)
Jos - of course the trim control is necessary - vital in fact to keep
the elevator
control where the pilot wants it and to provide "feel" or "weight" (the
anti-trim
part as you call it) to the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things"
as you most eloquently put it! But I think that without trim tabs
fitted the
elevator control would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy) throughout the
entire
range, dangerously so without extreme care. A perfectly aerodynamically
balanced
(all moving!) tailplane without trim tabs fitted would be completely
without
weight or feel at all throughout the entire elevator range (most
undesirable).
The trim tabs we have are very powerful being so far from the torque
tube
and if set even slightly out of the correct trimmed position would make
the
stick very heavy to hold in position. This of course is not force
generated by
the tailplane itself, rather the (rotating) force being applied to the
tailplane
by the incorrectly set trim (tabs).
Best Regards, Jon
(Sorry about the length again!)
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 01:51:22 PM PST US
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch
Trim
This is what I think this topic shortly:
1) we could fix permanently the tabs and stop
trimming but then we have to
accept we loose also anti-servo-function which is
necessary to generate some pilots stick forces.
Flying with zero pitch forces by stick would be
nauseous and
dangerous.
2) trimming function is there just to zero trim
tabsanti-servo
loads when tailplanes are in their desidered
position = when trimming pilot is in fact
in-lining the
tabs with the tailplanes to zero the stick forces.
Stick loads means the tabs must be deflected more
or less, no
stick loads means the tabs are in-lined with
tailplanes = the plane is trimmed.
3) if the trim tabs are slightly deflected when
the plane is trimmed and there are no stick
forces, it means some unperfection with
tailplanes shape (foam structure, no NG factory
made).
4) " aerodynamically balanced " tailplanes = the
forces which try to turn the tailplanes clockwise
are always equal with the forces which try to turn
them anticlockwise.
That is why they could float in any position any
time (without anti-servo function or pilots hand
which keeps the stick steady).
Frans, do you now have more photos with varying
speeds and CofGs ?
Raimo
--------------------------------------------------
From: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:00 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and
Ailerons on Pitch Trim
> <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailplane
> was based on the principle of a FULLY
> aerodynamically balanced "all moving" tailplane,
> this being the perfect situation for efficiency.
> (Jos - MY interpretation of "aerodynamically
> balanced" being specifically related to an "all
> moving" tailplane that is not deflected at all
> from it's current position by it's relative
> airflow, including any changes to that airflow,
> ie the center or point of the lifting force
> (downforce) generated by the tailplane acts
> through the pivot (torque tube))
>
> However, IF Graham's info about the C of L being
> deliberately designed to be NOT quite acting
> through the pivot (due to this short period
> oscillation - whatever that is!) is true, and I
> am very pleased and interested to bow to his
> most extensive experience of the Europa
> development and learn about this, then this
> means that the Europa tailplane is not quite
> perfectly aerodynamically balanced. Thus,
> unless the Angle of Attack of the tailplane is
> at any time zero (most unlikely) then a small
> tab deflection in the relevant direction would
> be required to counter the rotating force
> created on the tailplane by the airflow. (I
> would class this as another "unwanted"
> rotational force as in my previous text under
> variances!). This rotating force - and the
> corresponding amount of tab deflection required
> to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would
> vary slightly depending on the relative airflow
> to the tailplane and the corresponding amount of
> lift (downforce) being generated. This!
> aerodynamic imbalance of the tailplane must I
> feel only be slight - the whole downforce
> generated by the tail is fairly small and is
> needed just to balance the wing's own imbalance
> of forces.
> (Question - WHY then are some people's tabs
> completely flush in steady trimmed
> flight.....?!)
>
> This aside though, I still fully stand by my
> comments of how the tailplane, especially the
> tabs work in principle. The tabs, when trimmed
> by the pilot correctly, hold the tailplane in
> the desired position as set by the elevator
> control. The tabs would ideally be flush (fully
> aerodynamically balanced tailplane) but will
> have a permanent, slightly variable deflection
> if Graham's info on the tailplane not being
> fully aerodynamically balanced is true (as I'm
> sure it is..!)
>
> Jos - of course the trim control is necessary -
> vital in fact to keep the elevator control where
> the pilot wants it and to provide "feel" or
> "weight" (the anti-trim part as you call it) to
> the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things" as
> you most eloquently put it! But I think that
> without trim tabs fitted the elevator control
> would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy)
> throughout the entire range, dangerously so
> without extreme care. A perfectly
> aerodynamically balanced (all moving!) tailplane
> without trim tabs fitted would be completely
> without weight or feel at all throughout the
> entire elevator range (most undesirable). The
> trim tabs we have are very powerful being so far
> from the torque tube and if set even slightly
> out of the correct trimmed position would make
> the stick very heavy to hold in position. This
> of course is not force generated by the
> tailplane itself, rather the (rotating) force
> being applied to the tailplane by the
> incorrectly set trim (tabs).
> Best Regards, Jon
> (Sorry about the length again!)
>
> --------
> G-TERN
> Classic Mono
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854
>
>
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> Chat, FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> Web Forums!
> List Admin.
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 02:54:21 PM PST US
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Subject: Europa-List: Trim and such
I admire the authors of that exchange of views regarding the
tabs on
the Europa stabilator. I've had enough training in aerodynamics
(ca.1950)
and forgotten most - to appreciate the mental shuttling required to
design
and forestall the effects of the air on the controls throughout the
travel
range.
Ivan and his associates certainly have my respect. It DOES seem
to
me that disregarding inaccurate shape, inappropriate weight balance or
excess system friction, hands off trim should show the tabs aligned with
the
stab. At any rate if not warned otherwise, I'll fuss if the tabs aren't
aligned if/when flies.........
A064 is now anent C-FFGG.
cheers, Ferg
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 03:31:54 PM PST US
From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
Subject: Europa-List: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic??
Gidday,
I am wondering if the profile of the XS is much different from the
classic, meaning
the Europa factory supplied fairings won't fit properly?? I can't
imagine
there is much if any difference, as I imagine the XS was moulded off a
good classic
wing, but I don't know specifically, only surmising. So, if anyone can
help me out I'd appreciate it.
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Aussie
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 06:26:05 PM PST US
From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger wheel fork
On May 25, 2010, at 5:50 AM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:
> Erich,
> Your fully retracting outriggers into the wings are very slick! And
> the wheel forks, so simple.
Erich...I second that...any pixs of the "doors"?
Fred
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Message 2
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|
Subject: | Re: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic?? |
Tony=0AXS wing is same section but slightly longer span. I think the root w
ill be the same.=0AHowever imho Fred Klein's wing root fairings are the way
to go. Bit more work but worth it. =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________
_________________=0AFrom: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>=0ATo: eur
opa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, 25 May, 2010 23:31:11=0ASubject: Eu
ropa-List: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic??=0A=0A--> Europa-List messag
e posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>=0A=0AGidday,=0AI am wo
ndering if the profile of the XS is much different from the classic, meanin
g the Europa factory supplied fairings won't fit properly?? I can't imagine
there is much if any difference, as I imagine the XS was moulded off a goo
d classic wing, but I don't know specifically, only surmising. So, if anyon
e can help me out I'd appreciate it.=0AReg=0ATony Renshaw=0ASydney Aussie
=================
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: RE: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10 |
So do I, I want a ride in your motorglider! Last time I felt wave under the
wings was in Roger Mills Classic. =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0AFrom: "Twigg, Alan" <Alan.Twigg@rolls-royce.com>=0ATo
: europa-list@matronics.com; Europa-List Digest List <europa-list-digest@ma
tronics.com>=0ASent: Wednesday, 26 May, 2010 8:36:42=0ASubject: Europa-List
: RE: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10=0A=0A--> Europa-List message po
sted by: "Twigg, Alan" <Alan.Twigg@rolls-royce.com>=0A=0AHas anyone fitted
retracting outriggers to the motorglider wing? My=0Awings are getting tanta
lisingly close, just wish the fuselage was=0Akeeping up. =0AAlan Twigg=0A
=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.co
m=0A[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa-Lis
t=0ADigest Server=0ASent: 26 May 2010 07:58=0ATo: Europa-List Digest List
=0ASubject: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10=0A=0A*=0A=0A====
======================0A Online
Versions of Today's List Digest Archive=0A==========
================0A=0AToday's complete Europa-
List Digest can also be found in either of the =0Atwo Web Links listed belo
w. The .html file includes the Digest=0Aformatted =0Ain HTML for viewing w
ith a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes =0Aand Message Navigatio
n. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version =0Aof the Europa-List Di
gest and can be viewed with a generic text editor =0Asuch as Notepad or wit
h a web browser. =0A=0AHTML Version:=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/diges
t/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha=0Apter 10-05-25&Archive
=Europa=0A=0AText Version:=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/digest/digest
view.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap=0Ater 10-05-25&Archive=Europa
=0A=0A=0A======================
==0A EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive=0A======
==================0A=0A=0A ----
------------------------------------------------------=0A
Europa-List Digest Archive=0A
---=0A Total Messages Posted Tue 05/25/10: 6=0A
----------------------------------------------------------=0A=0A=0AToda
y's Message Index:=0A----------------------=0A=0A 1. 11:06 AM - Re: Out
rigger wheel fork (Kevin Klinefelter)=0A 2. 01:02 PM - Re: Effects of
Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0A(JonSmith)=0A 3. 01:51 PM - Re: Re:
Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0A(Raimo Toivio)=0A 4. 02:5
4 PM - Trim and such (Fergus Kyle)=0A 5. 03:31 PM - XS Wing/Fuse Fairi
ngs on a Classic?? (Tony Renshaw)=0A 6. 06:26 PM - Re: Outrigger wheel
fork (Fred Klein)=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ Message 1
=0A_____________________________________=0A=0A=0ATime: 11:06:09 AM PST US
=0AFrom: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gotsky.com>=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List
: Outrigger wheel fork=0A=0AErich,=0AYour fully retracting outriggers into
the wings are very slick! And the =0Awheel forks, so simple. I bet they are
a lot lighter than the original =0Awheel and fork.=0AKevin=0AN211KA XS Mon
o 914=0A=0A________________________________ Message 2=0A__________________
___________________=0A=0A=0ATime: 01:02:38 PM PST US=0ASubject: Europa-List
: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0AFrom: "JonSmith" <jonsm
itheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>=0A=0A=0AHi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailp
lane was based on the=0Aprinciple of a=0AFULLY aerodynamically balanced "al
l moving" tailplane, this being the=0Aperfect=0Asituation for efficiency. (
Jos - MY interpretation of "aerodynamically=0Abalanced"=0Abeing specificall
y related to an "all moving" tailplane that is not=0Adeflected=0Aat all fro
m it's current position by it's relative airflow, including=0Aany changes
=0Ato that airflow, ie the center or point of the lifting force (downforce)
=0Agenerated by the tailplane acts through the pivot (torque tube))=0A=0AHo
wever, IF Graham's info about the C of L being deliberately designed=0Ato b
e NOT=0Aquite acting through the pivot (due to this short period oscillatio
n -=0Awhatever=0Athat is!) is true, and I am very pleased and interested to
bow to his=0Amost=0Aextensive experience of the Europa development and lea
rn about this,=0Athen this=0Ameans that the Europa tailplane is not quite p
erfectly aerodynamically=0Abalanced.=0AThus, unless the Angle of Attack of
the tailplane is at any time zero=0A(most=0Aunlikely) then a small tab defl
ection in the relevant direction would be=0Arequired=0Ato counter the rotat
ing force created on the tailplane by the airflow.=0A(I would class this as
another "unwanted" rotational force as in my=0Aprevious=0Atext under varia
nces!). This rotating force - and the corresponding=0Aamount of=0Atab defl
ection required to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would=0Avary slight
ly=0Adepending on the relative airflow to the tailplane and the correspondi
ng=0Aamount of lift (downforce) being generated. This aerodynamic imbalanc
e=0Aof=0Athe tailplane must I feel only be slight - the whole downforce gen
erated=0Aby the=0Atail is fairly small and is needed just to balance the wi
ng's own=0Aimbalance=0Aof forces.=0A(Question - WHY then are some people's
tabs completely flush in steady=0Atrimmed=0Aflight.....?!)=0A=0AThis aside
though, I still fully stand by my comments of how the=0Atailplane, especial
ly=0Athe tabs work in principle. The tabs, when trimmed by the pilot=0Acor
rectly,=0Ahold the tailplane in the desired position as set by the elevator
=0Acontrol.=0AThe tabs would ideally be flush (fully aerodynamically balanc
ed=0Atailplane)=0Abut will have a permanent, slightly variable deflection i
f Graham's info=0Aon the=0Atailplane not being fully aerodynamically balanc
ed is true (as I'm sure=0Ait=0Ais..!)=0A=0AJos - of course the trim control
is necessary - vital in fact to keep=0Athe elevator=0Acontrol where the pi
lot wants it and to provide "feel" or "weight" (the=0Aanti-trim=0Apart as y
ou call it) to the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things"=0Aas you most
eloquently put it! But I think that without trim tabs=0Afitted the=0Aeleva
tor control would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy) throughout the=0Aentire
=0Arange, dangerously so without extreme care. A perfectly aerodynamically
=0Abalanced=0A(all moving!) tailplane without trim tabs fitted would be com
pletely=0Awithout=0Aweight or feel at all throughout the entire elevator ra
nge (most=0Aundesirable).=0AThe trim tabs we have are very powerful being s
o far from the torque=0Atube=0Aand if set even slightly out of the correct
trimmed position would make=0Athe=0Astick very heavy to hold in position.
This of course is not force=0Agenerated by=0Athe tailplane itself, rather t
he (rotating) force being applied to the=0Atailplane=0Aby the incorrectly s
et trim (tabs).=0ABest Regards, Jon=0A(Sorry about the length again!)=0A=0A
--------=0AG-TERN=0AClassic Mono=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0A
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854=0A=0A=0A_______
_________________________ Message 3=0A____________________________________
_=0A=0A=0ATime: 01:51:22 PM PST US=0AFrom: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm
.fi>=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch
=0ATrim=0A=0A=0AThis is what I think this topic shortly:=0A=0A1) we could
fix permanently the tabs and stop =0Atrimming but then we have to=0Aaccept
we loose also anti-servo-function which is=0Anecessary to generate some pil
ots stick forces.=0A=0AFlying with zero pitch forces by stick would be =0An
auseous and=0Adangerous.=0A=0A2) trimming function is there just to zero tr
im =0Atabsanti-servo=0Aloads when tailplanes are in their desidered=0Aposit
ion = when trimming pilot is in fact =0Ain-lining the=0Atabs with the tai
lplanes to zero the stick forces.=0A=0AStick loads means the tabs must be d
eflected more =0Aor less, no=0Astick loads means the tabs are in-lined with
=0Atailplanes = the plane is trimmed.=0A=0A3) if the trim tabs are slight
ly deflected when =0Athe plane is trimmed and there are no stick =0Aforces,
it means some unperfection with =0Atailplanes shape (foam structure, no NG
factory =0Amade).=0A=0A4) " aerodynamically balanced " tailplanes = the
=0Aforces which try to turn the tailplanes clockwise =0Aare always equal wi
th the forces which try to turn =0Athem anticlockwise.=0AThat is why they c
ould float in any position any =0Atime (without anti-servo function or pilo
ts hand =0Awhich keeps the stick steady).=0A=0AFrans, do you now have more
photos with varying =0Aspeeds and CofGs ?=0A=0ARaimo=0A--------------------
------------------------------=0AFrom: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.c
o.uk>=0ASent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:00 PM=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Ef
fects of Flaps and =0AAilerons on Pitch Trim=0A=0A> <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali
.co.uk>=0A>=0A> Hi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailplane =0A> was bas
ed on the principle of a FULLY =0A> aerodynamically balanced "all moving" t
ailplane, =0A> this being the perfect situation for efficiency. =0A> (Jos -
MY interpretation of "aerodynamically =0A> balanced" being specifically re
lated to an "all =0A> moving" tailplane that is not deflected at all =0A> f
rom it's current position by it's relative =0A> airflow, including any chan
ges to that airflow, =0A> ie the center or point of the lifting force =0A>
(downforce) generated by the tailplane acts =0A> through the pivot (torque
tube))=0A>=0A> However, IF Graham's info about the C of L being =0A> delibe
rately designed to be NOT quite acting =0A> through the pivot (due to this
short period =0A> oscillation - whatever that is!) is true, and I =0A> am v
ery pleased and interested to bow to his =0A> most extensive experience of
the Europa =0A> development and learn about this, then this =0A> means that
the Europa tailplane is not quite =0A> perfectly aerodynamically balanced.
Thus, =0A> unless the Angle of Attack of the tailplane is =0A> at any tim
e zero (most unlikely) then a small =0A> tab deflection in the relevant dir
ection would =0A> be required to counter the rotating force =0A> created on
the tailplane by the airflow. (I =0A> would class this as another "unwant
ed" =0A> rotational force as in my previous text under =0A> variances!). T
his rotating force - and the =0A> corresponding amount of tab deflection re
quired =0A> to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would =0A> vary slightl
y depending on the relative airflow =0A> to the tailplane and the correspon
ding amount of =0A> lift (downforce) being generated. This!=0A> aerodynam
ic imbalance of the tailplane must I =0A> feel only be slight - the whole d
ownforce =0A> generated by the tail is fairly small and is =0A> needed just
to balance the wing's own imbalance =0A> of forces.=0A> (Question - WHY th
en are some people's tabs =0A> completely flush in steady trimmed =0A> flig
ht.....?!)=0A>=0A> This aside though, I still fully stand by my =0A> commen
ts of how the tailplane, especially the =0A> tabs work in principle. The t
abs, when trimmed =0A> by the pilot correctly, hold the tailplane in =0A> t
he desired position as set by the elevator =0A> control. The tabs would id
eally be flush (fully =0A> aerodynamically balanced tailplane) but will =0A
> have a permanent, slightly variable deflection =0A> if Graham's info on t
he tailplane not being =0A> fully aerodynamically balanced is true (as I'm
=0A> sure it is..!)=0A>=0A> Jos - of course the trim control is necessary -
=0A> vital in fact to keep the elevator control where =0A> the pilot wants
it and to provide "feel" or =0A> "weight" (the anti-trim part as you call
it) to =0A> the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things" as =0A> you most
eloquently put it! But I think that =0A> without trim tabs fitted the elev
ator control =0A> would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy) =0A> throughout t
he entire range, dangerously so =0A> without extreme care. A perfectly =0A
> aerodynamically balanced (all moving!) tailplane =0A> without trim tabs f
itted would be completely =0A> without weight or feel at all throughout the
=0A> entire elevator range (most undesirable). The =0A> trim tabs we have
are very powerful being so far =0A> from the torque tube and if set even s
lightly =0A> out of the correct trimmed position would make =0A> the stick
very heavy to hold in position. This =0A> of course is not force generated
by the =0A> tailplane itself, rather the (rotating) force =0A> being appli
ed to the tailplane by the =0A> incorrectly set trim (tabs).=0A> Best Regar
ds, Jon=0A> (Sorry about the length again!)=0A>=0A> --------=0A> G-TERN=0A>
Classic Mono=0A>=0A>=0A> Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A> http://forum
s.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854=0A>=0A>=0A> browse=0A> Un/S
ubscription,=0A> Chat, FAQ,=0A> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L
ist=0A> Web Forums!=0A> List Admin.=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A=0A=0A__________________
______________ Message 4=0A_____________________________________=0A=0A=0AT
ime: 02:54:21 PM PST US=0AFrom: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>=0ASubject: Eu
ropa-List: Trim and such=0A=0A I admire the authors of that exchange of
views regarding the=0Atabs on=0Athe Europa stabilator. I've had enough trai
ning in aerodynamics=0A(ca.1950)=0Aand forgotten most - to appreciate the m
ental shuttling required to=0Adesign=0Aand forestall the effects of the air
on the controls throughout the=0Atravel=0Arange.=0A Ivan and his associ
ates certainly have my respect. It DOES seem=0Ato=0Ame that disregarding in
accurate shape, inappropriate weight balance or=0Aexcess system friction, h
ands off trim should show the tabs aligned with=0Athe=0Astab. At any rate i
f not warned otherwise, I'll fuss if the tabs aren't=0Aaligned if/when flie
s.........=0A A064 is now anent C-FFGG.=0Acheers, Ferg=0A=0A____________
____________________ Message 5=0A_____________________________________=0A
=0A=0ATime: 03:31:54 PM PST US=0AFrom: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.c
om>=0ASubject: Europa-List: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic??=0A=0A=0AGi
dday,=0AI am wondering if the profile of the XS is much different from the
=0Aclassic, meaning=0Athe Europa factory supplied fairings won't fit proper
ly?? I can't=0Aimagine=0Athere is much if any difference, as I imagine the
XS was moulded off a=0Agood classic=0Awing, but I don't know specifically,
only surmising. So, if anyone can=0Ahelp me out I'd appreciate it.=0AReg=0A
Tony Renshaw=0ASydney Aussie=0A=0A=0A________________________________ Mess
age 6=0A_____________________________________=0A=0A=0ATime: 06:26:05 PM PST
US=0AFrom: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List:
Outrigger wheel fork=0A=0A=0AOn May 25, 2010, at 5:50 AM, Kevin Klinefelte
r wrote:=0A=0A> Erich,=0A> Your fully retracting outriggers into the wings
are very slick! And =0A> the wheel forks, so simple.=0A=0AErich...I second
that...any pixs of the "doors"?=0A=0AFred=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
The data contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidentia
l information. If you have received it in error you should notify the sende
r immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and cont
act +44 (0) 1332 242424 (the Rolls-Royce IT Security Director) if you need
assistance. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents
to any other person.=0A=0AAn e-mail response to this address may be subjec
t to interception or monitoring for operational reasons or for lawful busin
ess practices.=0A=0A(c) 2010 Rolls-Royce plc=0A=0ARegistered office: 65 Buc
kingham Gate, London SW1E 6AT Company number: 1003142. Registered in Englan
===================
Message 4
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All
I got today Kitplanes July 2010 Magazine and there is a nice Europa
story with the front cover photo "Europa=B4s Second Act!" and the story
itself "Europa Returns!".
I have some questions, please give me some good estimations:
1) The 1000th Europa kit sold 2005. How many they have sold now all
together until this day?
2) The new owner - Swift Aviation - do they have sold any kits so far?
3) How many Europas there are flying around the world (my guess: 300
pcs) ?
4) What is the basic reason for quite low retail prices (at least in
England) ?
In the Light Aviation there are regularly Europas for sale and asking
prices are around 30 t=A3 and typical RVs are double.
Maybe there are "too" many Europas in that area.
EFPU 2008
Terveisin, Raimo Toivio
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio@fly.to
www.rwm.fi
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X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 22 [cn]
Hi all
I have MAC pitch trim since 1994, my installation included:
Rocker switch, grip switchs, Needle indicator, relay and speedcontrol.
Does anyone have old wiring drawing, because I rebuildt the panel and don't have
this electric scheme.
Thanks
Michel AUVRAY
26-05-2010
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Subject: | Realistic price for 914F3? |
Someone informed me about a Rotax 914F3 that will be coming up for sale in the
near future.
I was told that this fully certified engine:
- currently runs on a certified airplane
- will be taken off due to TBO coming up shortly (year of build: 1998)
- is in perfect shiny state ("looks like brand new")
- has 400 hours TT on the clock
- will be delivered with all parts and documentation that you would get when buying
a new 914F3
- will receive a 600 hrs interval inspection and maintenance before it is being
sold
- has all SB's/TM's completed
- has flown appr. 30 hours each year, without extended periods of non-running
- has always been maintained according to Rotax maintenance schedules
To me this sounds like a perfect opportunity to have a certified engine for a homebuilt.
But.... since I have not built my Europa myself, I have no clue about
prices of engines.
I would therefore highly appreciate all input I can get from the Europa-community
on the subject of price: what do you think would be a realistic price for this
engine based on above description?
--------
Marcel
(Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW - formerly G-BWON)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298918#298918
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Raimo
To the best of my knowledge the total number of Europa kits sold to date is
about 900. I worked out that Peter Kember's aircraft (which KW decided to
label the "1000th") was probably No 890.
>From 2004 to 2008 (when Swift took over) the total number of new kits sold
was I believe 4.
Since Swift took over I believe they have sold 2 and have orders for about
3.
As for the number flying this is harder to estimate. In the UK we have
about 170 with permits. Worldwide your 300 is probably about right
The price of a low hours (nearly new) built Europa has, for a number of
year, been about the cost of the parts. Given that the buyer has to accept
the risk of discovering faults, damage this is not surprising. As the
aircraft get older the price drops a little. You have to look very
carefully at the details of the aircraft (Classic or XS, engine, paintwork,
upholstery, avionics etc) to know if the price is fair.
On day, when I have time, I would like to research these figures as part of
a "History of Europa".
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours
Europa Club Mods Specialist
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
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Subject: | Re: Old trim wiring |
Michel,
I think I have it and I could also find it!
Would you please give me a fax number where to send it?
Terveisin, Raimo Toivio
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 +150 hrs
37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio@fly.to
www.rwm.fi
From: mau11
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:34 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Old trim wiring
Hi all
I have MAC pitch trim since 1994, my installation included:
Rocker switch, grip switchs, Needle indicator, relay and speedcontrol.
Does anyone have old wiring drawing, because I rebuildt the panel and
don't have this electric scheme.
Thanks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Michel AUVRAY
26-05-2010
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Hi! The relay is superseded by MkII contact them for the replacement and
they will provide you with the circuit diagram.
REGARDS
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MK1 Rotax 914.
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mau11
Sent: 26 May 2010 14:34
Subject: Europa-List: Old trim wiring
Hi all
I have MAC pitch trim since 1994, my installation included:
Rocker switch, grip switchs, Needle indicator, relay and speedcontrol.
Does anyone have old wiring drawing, because I rebuildt the panel and don't
have this electric scheme.
Thanks
_____
Michel AUVRAY
26-05-2010
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Subject: | Whither Aviation OFF TOPIC |
First of all it has always been my belief that Aviation is Aviators
Aviating - not airlines, nor manufacturers nor for the most part, magazines.
Aviation is simply pilots flying. Any other reference to the term is merely
parasitic - making money on the shoulders of others.
Now to the point:
I suggest you dial in "Flying Cheap" on PBS - I watched an article
on typing "PBS Buffalo - flying cheap" into Google. Perhaps there are better
ways unknown to me. The title is typically bad grammar, but the content is
revealing.
We all know that many professions (and I call flying several hundred
people through the air - professional - as it is professed publicly) in fact
sqweeze the regulations, fight to relieve the regulations, lie to regulators
- or manage to pervert proper behaviour without any regulations. I don't
need to suggest which. Most of the time we can't act on the knowledge of
these transgressions; sometimes there are penalties, legal threats, etc.
After 60-odd years in the air, I am compelled to draw attention to
the squalid conditions under which new flyers are forced to work. I am
ashamed of the industry - commercial aviation - which granted me such
freedom and responsibility while continuing to grant less and less to those
who follow.
Love of flying is probably one of the most common qualities drawing
people to the craft. That fact is not lost on present-day executives and
they continue to lie, cheat and steal the very standards, gnawing away at
one principle or another until the calling is a trash-heap.
Your review of the above topic I hope will I hope convince you of my
beliefs. With two sons, ex-military, now flying several hundred passengers a
day I am thankful that most of the practices outlined in the series have not
touched them.
In my case, and in one son's event with a now-extinct carrier, we
came into conflict on the principles of a government regulation on time on
duty and at the controls. In both cases, the disruption in service delayed
some of my passengers - simply because a low-level minion winked at the law
and then attempted to blame us. In my airline (a major) the flight
supervisor made a swift defence of my actions although the miscreant didn't
pay for his deeds. In my son's case the British-owned subsidiary attempted
to demand a seventeen-hour day on a fifteen hour limit. He was downgraded
but never left the captain's seat (at the hands of his immediate
supervisors. he sued for the pay and an apology. They settled out of court
but never admitted the sin. They folded and he had a Captain's job the
following morning with a better line.
Se what "Flying Cheap" does for your thoughts. - My apologies for
this.
Ferg
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Perhaps I should not duplicate a message from Garmin without
checking with them first, but being a flyer and not a builder I have to ask
the maker every once in a while what they are trying to say in the
Installation manual. In this case I found there were two modes of
transponder and they cleared it up immediately, and then added this caviat:
"Thank you for contacting Garmin International,
Glad to help,
Our manuals basically are for trained installers and not the general
aviation public. If we covered everything in depth our manuals would be too
large.
But we are happy to answer any questions.
With Best Regards, "
In the event I think they won't mind.
Ferg
Classic A064
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Subject: | Re: Old trim wiring |
X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 22 [cn]
SGkgUmFpbW8sDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgYXNzaXN0YW5jZSBJIGhhdmUgb25seSBhIG1haWwg
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Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Old trim wiring |
"I have only a mail no fax sorry, is it possible to scan and
send Pdf document?"
Just a quick note, we don't have a
scanner @ hangar, however we have a camera. Taking a picture of a document
is easy,good enough resolution in most cases. Saves hassle of
bringing home and scan, then remembering to bring document to hangar and
put it away.
Ron Parigoris
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