Europa-List Digest Archive

Wed 05/26/10


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:38 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10 (Twigg, Alan)
     2. 12:38 AM - Re: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic?? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     3. 12:52 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10 (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     4. 04:12 AM - Europa News (Raimo Toivio)
     5. 06:39 AM - Old trim wiring (mau11)
     6. 06:44 AM - Realistic price for 914F3? (zwakie)
     7. 06:47 AM - Re: Europa News (G-IANI)
     8. 12:41 PM - Re: Old trim wiring (Raimo Toivio)
     9. 01:14 PM - Re: Old trim wiring (Robert C Harrison)
    10. 05:23 PM -  (Fergus Kyle)
    11. 05:23 PM - Whither Aviation OFF TOPIC (Fergus Kyle)
    12. 06:28 PM - Garmin info (Fergus Kyle)
    13. 08:59 PM - Re: Re: Old trim wiring (mau11)
    14. 09:50 PM - Re: Re: Old trim wiring (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:38:22 AM PST US
    Subject: RE: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10
    From: "Twigg, Alan" <Alan.Twigg@rolls-royce.com>
    Has anyone fitted retracting outriggers to the motorglider wing? My wings are getting tantalisingly close, just wish the fuselage was keeping up. Alan Twigg -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa-List Digest Server Sent: 26 May 2010 07:58 Subject: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha pter 10-05-25&Archive=Europa Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap ter 10-05-25&Archive=Europa =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/25/10: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:06 AM - Re: Outrigger wheel fork (Kevin Klinefelter) 2. 01:02 PM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (JonSmith) 3. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim (Raimo Toivio) 4. 02:54 PM - Trim and such (Fergus Kyle) 5. 03:31 PM - XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic?? (Tony Renshaw) 6. 06:26 PM - Re: Outrigger wheel fork (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:09 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gotsky.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger wheel fork Erich, Your fully retracting outriggers into the wings are very slick! And the wheel forks, so simple. I bet they are a lot lighter than the original wheel and fork. Kevin N211KA XS Mono 914 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:38 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim From: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk> Hi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailplane was based on the principle of a FULLY aerodynamically balanced "all moving" tailplane, this being the perfect situation for efficiency. (Jos - MY interpretation of "aerodynamically balanced" being specifically related to an "all moving" tailplane that is not deflected at all from it's current position by it's relative airflow, including any changes to that airflow, ie the center or point of the lifting force (downforce) generated by the tailplane acts through the pivot (torque tube)) However, IF Graham's info about the C of L being deliberately designed to be NOT quite acting through the pivot (due to this short period oscillation - whatever that is!) is true, and I am very pleased and interested to bow to his most extensive experience of the Europa development and learn about this, then this means that the Europa tailplane is not quite perfectly aerodynamically balanced. Thus, unless the Angle of Attack of the tailplane is at any time zero (most unlikely) then a small tab deflection in the relevant direction would be required to counter the rotating force created on the tailplane by the airflow. (I would class this as another "unwanted" rotational force as in my previous text under variances!). This rotating force - and the corresponding amount of tab deflection required to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would vary slightly depending on the relative airflow to the tailplane and the corresponding amount of lift (downforce) being generated. This aerodynamic imbalance of the tailplane must I feel only be slight - the whole downforce generated by the tail is fairly small and is needed just to balance the wing's own imbalance of forces. (Question - WHY then are some people's tabs completely flush in steady trimmed flight.....?!) This aside though, I still fully stand by my comments of how the tailplane, especially the tabs work in principle. The tabs, when trimmed by the pilot correctly, hold the tailplane in the desired position as set by the elevator control. The tabs would ideally be flush (fully aerodynamically balanced tailplane) but will have a permanent, slightly variable deflection if Graham's info on the tailplane not being fully aerodynamically balanced is true (as I'm sure it is..!) Jos - of course the trim control is necessary - vital in fact to keep the elevator control where the pilot wants it and to provide "feel" or "weight" (the anti-trim part as you call it) to the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things" as you most eloquently put it! But I think that without trim tabs fitted the elevator control would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy) throughout the entire range, dangerously so without extreme care. A perfectly aerodynamically balanced (all moving!) tailplane without trim tabs fitted would be completely without weight or feel at all throughout the entire elevator range (most undesirable). The trim tabs we have are very powerful being so far from the torque tube and if set even slightly out of the correct trimmed position would make the stick very heavy to hold in position. This of course is not force generated by the tailplane itself, rather the (rotating) force being applied to the tailplane by the incorrectly set trim (tabs). Best Regards, Jon (Sorry about the length again!) -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:22 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim This is what I think this topic shortly: 1) we could fix permanently the tabs and stop trimming but then we have to accept we loose also anti-servo-function which is necessary to generate some pilots stick forces. Flying with zero pitch forces by stick would be nauseous and dangerous. 2) trimming function is there just to zero trim tabsanti-servo loads when tailplanes are in their desidered position = when trimming pilot is in fact in-lining the tabs with the tailplanes to zero the stick forces. Stick loads means the tabs must be deflected more or less, no stick loads means the tabs are in-lined with tailplanes = the plane is trimmed. 3) if the trim tabs are slightly deflected when the plane is trimmed and there are no stick forces, it means some unperfection with tailplanes shape (foam structure, no NG factory made). 4) " aerodynamically balanced " tailplanes = the forces which try to turn the tailplanes clockwise are always equal with the forces which try to turn them anticlockwise. That is why they could float in any position any time (without anti-servo function or pilots hand which keeps the stick steady). Frans, do you now have more photos with varying speeds and CofGs ? Raimo -------------------------------------------------- From: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:00 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim > <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk> > > Hi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailplane > was based on the principle of a FULLY > aerodynamically balanced "all moving" tailplane, > this being the perfect situation for efficiency. > (Jos - MY interpretation of "aerodynamically > balanced" being specifically related to an "all > moving" tailplane that is not deflected at all > from it's current position by it's relative > airflow, including any changes to that airflow, > ie the center or point of the lifting force > (downforce) generated by the tailplane acts > through the pivot (torque tube)) > > However, IF Graham's info about the C of L being > deliberately designed to be NOT quite acting > through the pivot (due to this short period > oscillation - whatever that is!) is true, and I > am very pleased and interested to bow to his > most extensive experience of the Europa > development and learn about this, then this > means that the Europa tailplane is not quite > perfectly aerodynamically balanced. Thus, > unless the Angle of Attack of the tailplane is > at any time zero (most unlikely) then a small > tab deflection in the relevant direction would > be required to counter the rotating force > created on the tailplane by the airflow. (I > would class this as another "unwanted" > rotational force as in my previous text under > variances!). This rotating force - and the > corresponding amount of tab deflection required > to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would > vary slightly depending on the relative airflow > to the tailplane and the corresponding amount of > lift (downforce) being generated. This! > aerodynamic imbalance of the tailplane must I > feel only be slight - the whole downforce > generated by the tail is fairly small and is > needed just to balance the wing's own imbalance > of forces. > (Question - WHY then are some people's tabs > completely flush in steady trimmed > flight.....?!) > > This aside though, I still fully stand by my > comments of how the tailplane, especially the > tabs work in principle. The tabs, when trimmed > by the pilot correctly, hold the tailplane in > the desired position as set by the elevator > control. The tabs would ideally be flush (fully > aerodynamically balanced tailplane) but will > have a permanent, slightly variable deflection > if Graham's info on the tailplane not being > fully aerodynamically balanced is true (as I'm > sure it is..!) > > Jos - of course the trim control is necessary - > vital in fact to keep the elevator control where > the pilot wants it and to provide "feel" or > "weight" (the anti-trim part as you call it) to > the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things" as > you most eloquently put it! But I think that > without trim tabs fitted the elevator control > would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy) > throughout the entire range, dangerously so > without extreme care. A perfectly > aerodynamically balanced (all moving!) tailplane > without trim tabs fitted would be completely > without weight or feel at all throughout the > entire elevator range (most undesirable). The > trim tabs we have are very powerful being so far > from the torque tube and if set even slightly > out of the correct trimmed position would make > the stick very heavy to hold in position. This > of course is not force generated by the > tailplane itself, rather the (rotating) force > being applied to the tailplane by the > incorrectly set trim (tabs). > Best Regards, Jon > (Sorry about the length again!) > > -------- > G-TERN > Classic Mono > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854 > > > browse > Un/Subscription, > Chat, FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > Web Forums! > List Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:21 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca> Subject: Europa-List: Trim and such I admire the authors of that exchange of views regarding the tabs on the Europa stabilator. I've had enough training in aerodynamics (ca.1950) and forgotten most - to appreciate the mental shuttling required to design and forestall the effects of the air on the controls throughout the travel range. Ivan and his associates certainly have my respect. It DOES seem to me that disregarding inaccurate shape, inappropriate weight balance or excess system friction, hands off trim should show the tabs aligned with the stab. At any rate if not warned otherwise, I'll fuss if the tabs aren't aligned if/when flies......... A064 is now anent C-FFGG. cheers, Ferg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:54 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com> Subject: Europa-List: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic?? Gidday, I am wondering if the profile of the XS is much different from the classic, meaning the Europa factory supplied fairings won't fit properly?? I can't imagine there is much if any difference, as I imagine the XS was moulded off a good classic wing, but I don't know specifically, only surmising. So, if anyone can help me out I'd appreciate it. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:05 PM PST US From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger wheel fork On May 25, 2010, at 5:50 AM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: > Erich, > Your fully retracting outriggers into the wings are very slick! And > the wheel forks, so simple. Erich...I second that...any pixs of the "doors"? Fred The data contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information. If you have received it in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and contact +44 (0) 1332 242424 (the Rolls-Royce IT Security Director) if you need assistance. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. An e-mail response to this address may be subject to interception or monitoring for operational reasons or for lawful business practices. (c) 2010 Rolls-Royce plc Registered office: 65 Buckingham Gate, London SW1E 6AT Company number: 1003142. Registered in England.


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:38:51 AM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic??
    Tony=0AXS wing is same section but slightly longer span. I think the root w ill be the same.=0AHowever imho Fred Klein's wing root fairings are the way to go. Bit more work but worth it. =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________ _________________=0AFrom: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>=0ATo: eur opa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, 25 May, 2010 23:31:11=0ASubject: Eu ropa-List: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic??=0A=0A--> Europa-List messag e posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>=0A=0AGidday,=0AI am wo ndering if the profile of the XS is much different from the classic, meanin g the Europa factory supplied fairings won't fit properly?? I can't imagine there is much if any difference, as I imagine the XS was moulded off a goo d classic wing, but I don't know specifically, only surmising. So, if anyon e can help me out I'd appreciate it.=0AReg=0ATony Renshaw=0ASydney Aussie =================


    Message 3


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    Time: 12:52:54 AM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: RE: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10
    So do I, I want a ride in your motorglider! Last time I felt wave under the wings was in Roger Mills Classic. =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0AFrom: "Twigg, Alan" <Alan.Twigg@rolls-royce.com>=0ATo : europa-list@matronics.com; Europa-List Digest List <europa-list-digest@ma tronics.com>=0ASent: Wednesday, 26 May, 2010 8:36:42=0ASubject: Europa-List : RE: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10=0A=0A--> Europa-List message po sted by: "Twigg, Alan" <Alan.Twigg@rolls-royce.com>=0A=0AHas anyone fitted retracting outriggers to the motorglider wing? My=0Awings are getting tanta lisingly close, just wish the fuselage was=0Akeeping up. =0AAlan Twigg=0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.co m=0A[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa-Lis t=0ADigest Server=0ASent: 26 May 2010 07:58=0ATo: Europa-List Digest List =0ASubject: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10=0A=0A*=0A=0A==== ======================0A Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive=0A========== ================0A=0AToday's complete Europa- List Digest can also be found in either of the =0Atwo Web Links listed belo w. The .html file includes the Digest=0Aformatted =0Ain HTML for viewing w ith a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes =0Aand Message Navigatio n. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version =0Aof the Europa-List Di gest and can be viewed with a generic text editor =0Asuch as Notepad or wit h a web browser. =0A=0AHTML Version:=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/diges t/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha=0Apter 10-05-25&Archive =Europa=0A=0AText Version:=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/digest/digest view.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap=0Ater 10-05-25&Archive=Europa =0A=0A=0A====================== ==0A EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive=0A====== ==================0A=0A=0A ---- ------------------------------------------------------=0A Europa-List Digest Archive=0A ---=0A Total Messages Posted Tue 05/25/10: 6=0A ----------------------------------------------------------=0A=0A=0AToda y's Message Index:=0A----------------------=0A=0A 1. 11:06 AM - Re: Out rigger wheel fork (Kevin Klinefelter)=0A 2. 01:02 PM - Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0A(JonSmith)=0A 3. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0A(Raimo Toivio)=0A 4. 02:5 4 PM - Trim and such (Fergus Kyle)=0A 5. 03:31 PM - XS Wing/Fuse Fairi ngs on a Classic?? (Tony Renshaw)=0A 6. 06:26 PM - Re: Outrigger wheel fork (Fred Klein)=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ Message 1 =0A_____________________________________=0A=0A=0ATime: 11:06:09 AM PST US =0AFrom: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gotsky.com>=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List : Outrigger wheel fork=0A=0AErich,=0AYour fully retracting outriggers into the wings are very slick! And the =0Awheel forks, so simple. I bet they are a lot lighter than the original =0Awheel and fork.=0AKevin=0AN211KA XS Mon o 914=0A=0A________________________________ Message 2=0A__________________ ___________________=0A=0A=0ATime: 01:02:38 PM PST US=0ASubject: Europa-List : Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0AFrom: "JonSmith" <jonsm itheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>=0A=0A=0AHi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailp lane was based on the=0Aprinciple of a=0AFULLY aerodynamically balanced "al l moving" tailplane, this being the=0Aperfect=0Asituation for efficiency. ( Jos - MY interpretation of "aerodynamically=0Abalanced"=0Abeing specificall y related to an "all moving" tailplane that is not=0Adeflected=0Aat all fro m it's current position by it's relative airflow, including=0Aany changes =0Ato that airflow, ie the center or point of the lifting force (downforce) =0Agenerated by the tailplane acts through the pivot (torque tube))=0A=0AHo wever, IF Graham's info about the C of L being deliberately designed=0Ato b e NOT=0Aquite acting through the pivot (due to this short period oscillatio n -=0Awhatever=0Athat is!) is true, and I am very pleased and interested to bow to his=0Amost=0Aextensive experience of the Europa development and lea rn about this,=0Athen this=0Ameans that the Europa tailplane is not quite p erfectly aerodynamically=0Abalanced.=0AThus, unless the Angle of Attack of the tailplane is at any time zero=0A(most=0Aunlikely) then a small tab defl ection in the relevant direction would be=0Arequired=0Ato counter the rotat ing force created on the tailplane by the airflow.=0A(I would class this as another "unwanted" rotational force as in my=0Aprevious=0Atext under varia nces!). This rotating force - and the corresponding=0Aamount of=0Atab defl ection required to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would=0Avary slight ly=0Adepending on the relative airflow to the tailplane and the correspondi ng=0Aamount of lift (downforce) being generated. This aerodynamic imbalanc e=0Aof=0Athe tailplane must I feel only be slight - the whole downforce gen erated=0Aby the=0Atail is fairly small and is needed just to balance the wi ng's own=0Aimbalance=0Aof forces.=0A(Question - WHY then are some people's tabs completely flush in steady=0Atrimmed=0Aflight.....?!)=0A=0AThis aside though, I still fully stand by my comments of how the=0Atailplane, especial ly=0Athe tabs work in principle. The tabs, when trimmed by the pilot=0Acor rectly,=0Ahold the tailplane in the desired position as set by the elevator =0Acontrol.=0AThe tabs would ideally be flush (fully aerodynamically balanc ed=0Atailplane)=0Abut will have a permanent, slightly variable deflection i f Graham's info=0Aon the=0Atailplane not being fully aerodynamically balanc ed is true (as I'm sure=0Ait=0Ais..!)=0A=0AJos - of course the trim control is necessary - vital in fact to keep=0Athe elevator=0Acontrol where the pi lot wants it and to provide "feel" or "weight" (the=0Aanti-trim=0Apart as y ou call it) to the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things"=0Aas you most eloquently put it! But I think that without trim tabs=0Afitted the=0Aeleva tor control would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy) throughout the=0Aentire =0Arange, dangerously so without extreme care. A perfectly aerodynamically =0Abalanced=0A(all moving!) tailplane without trim tabs fitted would be com pletely=0Awithout=0Aweight or feel at all throughout the entire elevator ra nge (most=0Aundesirable).=0AThe trim tabs we have are very powerful being s o far from the torque=0Atube=0Aand if set even slightly out of the correct trimmed position would make=0Athe=0Astick very heavy to hold in position. This of course is not force=0Agenerated by=0Athe tailplane itself, rather t he (rotating) force being applied to the=0Atailplane=0Aby the incorrectly s et trim (tabs).=0ABest Regards, Jon=0A(Sorry about the length again!)=0A=0A --------=0AG-TERN=0AClassic Mono=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0A http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854=0A=0A=0A_______ _________________________ Message 3=0A____________________________________ _=0A=0A=0ATime: 01:51:22 PM PST US=0AFrom: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm .fi>=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch =0ATrim=0A=0A=0AThis is what I think this topic shortly:=0A=0A1) we could fix permanently the tabs and stop =0Atrimming but then we have to=0Aaccept we loose also anti-servo-function which is=0Anecessary to generate some pil ots stick forces.=0A=0AFlying with zero pitch forces by stick would be =0An auseous and=0Adangerous.=0A=0A2) trimming function is there just to zero tr im =0Atabsanti-servo=0Aloads when tailplanes are in their desidered=0Aposit ion = when trimming pilot is in fact =0Ain-lining the=0Atabs with the tai lplanes to zero the stick forces.=0A=0AStick loads means the tabs must be d eflected more =0Aor less, no=0Astick loads means the tabs are in-lined with =0Atailplanes = the plane is trimmed.=0A=0A3) if the trim tabs are slight ly deflected when =0Athe plane is trimmed and there are no stick =0Aforces, it means some unperfection with =0Atailplanes shape (foam structure, no NG factory =0Amade).=0A=0A4) " aerodynamically balanced " tailplanes = the =0Aforces which try to turn the tailplanes clockwise =0Aare always equal wi th the forces which try to turn =0Athem anticlockwise.=0AThat is why they c ould float in any position any =0Atime (without anti-servo function or pilo ts hand =0Awhich keeps the stick steady).=0A=0AFrans, do you now have more photos with varying =0Aspeeds and CofGs ?=0A=0ARaimo=0A-------------------- ------------------------------=0AFrom: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.c o.uk>=0ASent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:00 PM=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Ef fects of Flaps and =0AAilerons on Pitch Trim=0A=0A> <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali .co.uk>=0A>=0A> Hi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailplane =0A> was bas ed on the principle of a FULLY =0A> aerodynamically balanced "all moving" t ailplane, =0A> this being the perfect situation for efficiency. =0A> (Jos - MY interpretation of "aerodynamically =0A> balanced" being specifically re lated to an "all =0A> moving" tailplane that is not deflected at all =0A> f rom it's current position by it's relative =0A> airflow, including any chan ges to that airflow, =0A> ie the center or point of the lifting force =0A> (downforce) generated by the tailplane acts =0A> through the pivot (torque tube))=0A>=0A> However, IF Graham's info about the C of L being =0A> delibe rately designed to be NOT quite acting =0A> through the pivot (due to this short period =0A> oscillation - whatever that is!) is true, and I =0A> am v ery pleased and interested to bow to his =0A> most extensive experience of the Europa =0A> development and learn about this, then this =0A> means that the Europa tailplane is not quite =0A> perfectly aerodynamically balanced. Thus, =0A> unless the Angle of Attack of the tailplane is =0A> at any tim e zero (most unlikely) then a small =0A> tab deflection in the relevant dir ection would =0A> be required to counter the rotating force =0A> created on the tailplane by the airflow. (I =0A> would class this as another "unwant ed" =0A> rotational force as in my previous text under =0A> variances!). T his rotating force - and the =0A> corresponding amount of tab deflection re quired =0A> to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would =0A> vary slightl y depending on the relative airflow =0A> to the tailplane and the correspon ding amount of =0A> lift (downforce) being generated. This!=0A> aerodynam ic imbalance of the tailplane must I =0A> feel only be slight - the whole d ownforce =0A> generated by the tail is fairly small and is =0A> needed just to balance the wing's own imbalance =0A> of forces.=0A> (Question - WHY th en are some people's tabs =0A> completely flush in steady trimmed =0A> flig ht.....?!)=0A>=0A> This aside though, I still fully stand by my =0A> commen ts of how the tailplane, especially the =0A> tabs work in principle. The t abs, when trimmed =0A> by the pilot correctly, hold the tailplane in =0A> t he desired position as set by the elevator =0A> control. The tabs would id eally be flush (fully =0A> aerodynamically balanced tailplane) but will =0A > have a permanent, slightly variable deflection =0A> if Graham's info on t he tailplane not being =0A> fully aerodynamically balanced is true (as I'm =0A> sure it is..!)=0A>=0A> Jos - of course the trim control is necessary - =0A> vital in fact to keep the elevator control where =0A> the pilot wants it and to provide "feel" or =0A> "weight" (the anti-trim part as you call it) to =0A> the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things" as =0A> you most eloquently put it! But I think that =0A> without trim tabs fitted the elev ator control =0A> would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy) =0A> throughout t he entire range, dangerously so =0A> without extreme care. A perfectly =0A > aerodynamically balanced (all moving!) tailplane =0A> without trim tabs f itted would be completely =0A> without weight or feel at all throughout the =0A> entire elevator range (most undesirable). The =0A> trim tabs we have are very powerful being so far =0A> from the torque tube and if set even s lightly =0A> out of the correct trimmed position would make =0A> the stick very heavy to hold in position. This =0A> of course is not force generated by the =0A> tailplane itself, rather the (rotating) force =0A> being appli ed to the tailplane by the =0A> incorrectly set trim (tabs).=0A> Best Regar ds, Jon=0A> (Sorry about the length again!)=0A>=0A> --------=0A> G-TERN=0A> Classic Mono=0A>=0A>=0A> Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A> http://forum s.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854=0A>=0A>=0A> browse=0A> Un/S ubscription,=0A> Chat, FAQ,=0A> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L ist=0A> Web Forums!=0A> List Admin.=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A=0A=0A__________________ ______________ Message 4=0A_____________________________________=0A=0A=0AT ime: 02:54:21 PM PST US=0AFrom: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>=0ASubject: Eu ropa-List: Trim and such=0A=0A I admire the authors of that exchange of views regarding the=0Atabs on=0Athe Europa stabilator. I've had enough trai ning in aerodynamics=0A(ca.1950)=0Aand forgotten most - to appreciate the m ental shuttling required to=0Adesign=0Aand forestall the effects of the air on the controls throughout the=0Atravel=0Arange.=0A Ivan and his associ ates certainly have my respect. It DOES seem=0Ato=0Ame that disregarding in accurate shape, inappropriate weight balance or=0Aexcess system friction, h ands off trim should show the tabs aligned with=0Athe=0Astab. At any rate i f not warned otherwise, I'll fuss if the tabs aren't=0Aaligned if/when flie s.........=0A A064 is now anent C-FFGG.=0Acheers, Ferg=0A=0A____________ ____________________ Message 5=0A_____________________________________=0A =0A=0ATime: 03:31:54 PM PST US=0AFrom: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.c om>=0ASubject: Europa-List: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic??=0A=0A=0AGi dday,=0AI am wondering if the profile of the XS is much different from the =0Aclassic, meaning=0Athe Europa factory supplied fairings won't fit proper ly?? I can't=0Aimagine=0Athere is much if any difference, as I imagine the XS was moulded off a=0Agood classic=0Awing, but I don't know specifically, only surmising. So, if anyone can=0Ahelp me out I'd appreciate it.=0AReg=0A Tony Renshaw=0ASydney Aussie=0A=0A=0A________________________________ Mess age 6=0A_____________________________________=0A=0A=0ATime: 06:26:05 PM PST US=0AFrom: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger wheel fork=0A=0A=0AOn May 25, 2010, at 5:50 AM, Kevin Klinefelte r wrote:=0A=0A> Erich,=0A> Your fully retracting outriggers into the wings are very slick! And =0A> the wheel forks, so simple.=0A=0AErich...I second that...any pixs of the "doors"?=0A=0AFred=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A The data contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidentia l information. If you have received it in error you should notify the sende r immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and cont act +44 (0) 1332 242424 (the Rolls-Royce IT Security Director) if you need assistance. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person.=0A=0AAn e-mail response to this address may be subjec t to interception or monitoring for operational reasons or for lawful busin ess practices.=0A=0A(c) 2010 Rolls-Royce plc=0A=0ARegistered office: 65 Buc kingham Gate, London SW1E 6AT Company number: 1003142. Registered in Englan ===================


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:12:40 AM PST US
    From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
    Subject: Europa News
    All I got today Kitplanes July 2010 Magazine and there is a nice Europa story with the front cover photo "Europa=B4s Second Act!" and the story itself "Europa Returns!". I have some questions, please give me some good estimations: 1) The 1000th Europa kit sold 2005. How many they have sold now all together until this day? 2) The new owner - Swift Aviation - do they have sold any kits so far? 3) How many Europas there are flying around the world (my guess: 300 pcs) ? 4) What is the basic reason for quite low retail prices (at least in England) ? In the Light Aviation there are regularly Europas for sale and asking prices are around 30 t=A3 and typical RVs are double. Maybe there are "too" many Europas in that area. EFPU 2008 Terveisin, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4 p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio@fly.to www.rwm.fi


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:39:12 AM PST US
    From: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr>
    Subject: Old trim wiring
    X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 22 [cn] Hi all I have MAC pitch trim since 1994, my installation included: Rocker switch, grip switchs, Needle indicator, relay and speedcontrol. Does anyone have old wiring drawing, because I rebuildt the panel and don't have this electric scheme. Thanks Michel AUVRAY 26-05-2010


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:44:24 AM PST US
    Subject: Realistic price for 914F3?
    From: "zwakie" <mz@cariama.nl>
    Someone informed me about a Rotax 914F3 that will be coming up for sale in the near future. I was told that this fully certified engine: - currently runs on a certified airplane - will be taken off due to TBO coming up shortly (year of build: 1998) - is in perfect shiny state ("looks like brand new") - has 400 hours TT on the clock - will be delivered with all parts and documentation that you would get when buying a new 914F3 - will receive a 600 hrs interval inspection and maintenance before it is being sold - has all SB's/TM's completed - has flown appr. 30 hours each year, without extended periods of non-running - has always been maintained according to Rotax maintenance schedules To me this sounds like a perfect opportunity to have a certified engine for a homebuilt. But.... since I have not built my Europa myself, I have no clue about prices of engines. I would therefore highly appreciate all input I can get from the Europa-community on the subject of price: what do you think would be a realistic price for this engine based on above description? -------- Marcel (Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW - formerly G-BWON) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298918#298918


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:47:05 AM PST US
    From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
    Subject: Europa News
    Raimo To the best of my knowledge the total number of Europa kits sold to date is about 900. I worked out that Peter Kember's aircraft (which KW decided to label the "1000th") was probably No 890. >From 2004 to 2008 (when Swift took over) the total number of new kits sold was I believe 4. Since Swift took over I believe they have sold 2 and have orders for about 3. As for the number flying this is harder to estimate. In the UK we have about 170 with permits. Worldwide your 300 is probably about right The price of a low hours (nearly new) built Europa has, for a number of year, been about the cost of the parts. Given that the buyer has to accept the risk of discovering faults, damage this is not surprising. As the aircraft get older the price drops a little. You have to look very carefully at the details of the aircraft (Classic or XS, engine, paintwork, upholstery, avionics etc) to know if the price is fair. On day, when I have time, I would like to research these figures as part of a "History of Europa". Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com


    Message 8


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    Time: 12:41:16 PM PST US
    From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
    Subject: Re: Old trim wiring
    Michel, I think I have it and I could also find it! Would you please give me a fax number where to send it? Terveisin, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 +150 hrs 37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4 FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio@fly.to www.rwm.fi From: mau11 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Europa-List: Old trim wiring Hi all I have MAC pitch trim since 1994, my installation included: Rocker switch, grip switchs, Needle indicator, relay and speedcontrol. Does anyone have old wiring drawing, because I rebuildt the panel and don't have this electric scheme. Thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Michel AUVRAY 26-05-2010


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:14:07 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Old trim wiring
    Hi! The relay is superseded by MkII contact them for the replacement and they will provide you with the circuit diagram. REGARDS Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MK1 Rotax 914. _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mau11 Sent: 26 May 2010 14:34 Subject: Europa-List: Old trim wiring Hi all I have MAC pitch trim since 1994, my installation included: Rocker switch, grip switchs, Needle indicator, relay and speedcontrol. Does anyone have old wiring drawing, because I rebuildt the panel and don't have this electric scheme. Thanks _____ Michel AUVRAY 26-05-2010


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:23:07 PM PST US
    From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject:


    Message 11


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    Time: 05:23:07 PM PST US
    From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject: Whither Aviation OFF TOPIC
    First of all it has always been my belief that Aviation is Aviators Aviating - not airlines, nor manufacturers nor for the most part, magazines. Aviation is simply pilots flying. Any other reference to the term is merely parasitic - making money on the shoulders of others. Now to the point: I suggest you dial in "Flying Cheap" on PBS - I watched an article on typing "PBS Buffalo - flying cheap" into Google. Perhaps there are better ways unknown to me. The title is typically bad grammar, but the content is revealing. We all know that many professions (and I call flying several hundred people through the air - professional - as it is professed publicly) in fact sqweeze the regulations, fight to relieve the regulations, lie to regulators - or manage to pervert proper behaviour without any regulations. I don't need to suggest which. Most of the time we can't act on the knowledge of these transgressions; sometimes there are penalties, legal threats, etc. After 60-odd years in the air, I am compelled to draw attention to the squalid conditions under which new flyers are forced to work. I am ashamed of the industry - commercial aviation - which granted me such freedom and responsibility while continuing to grant less and less to those who follow. Love of flying is probably one of the most common qualities drawing people to the craft. That fact is not lost on present-day executives and they continue to lie, cheat and steal the very standards, gnawing away at one principle or another until the calling is a trash-heap. Your review of the above topic I hope will I hope convince you of my beliefs. With two sons, ex-military, now flying several hundred passengers a day I am thankful that most of the practices outlined in the series have not touched them. In my case, and in one son's event with a now-extinct carrier, we came into conflict on the principles of a government regulation on time on duty and at the controls. In both cases, the disruption in service delayed some of my passengers - simply because a low-level minion winked at the law and then attempted to blame us. In my airline (a major) the flight supervisor made a swift defence of my actions although the miscreant didn't pay for his deeds. In my son's case the British-owned subsidiary attempted to demand a seventeen-hour day on a fifteen hour limit. He was downgraded but never left the captain's seat (at the hands of his immediate supervisors. he sued for the pay and an apology. They settled out of court but never admitted the sin. They folded and he had a Captain's job the following morning with a better line. Se what "Flying Cheap" does for your thoughts. - My apologies for this. Ferg


    Message 12


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    Time: 06:28:52 PM PST US
    From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject: Garmin info
    Perhaps I should not duplicate a message from Garmin without checking with them first, but being a flyer and not a builder I have to ask the maker every once in a while what they are trying to say in the Installation manual. In this case I found there were two modes of transponder and they cleared it up immediately, and then added this caviat: "Thank you for contacting Garmin International, Glad to help, Our manuals basically are for trained installers and not the general aviation public. If we covered everything in depth our manuals would be too large. But we are happy to answer any questions. With Best Regards, " In the event I think they won't mind. Ferg Classic A064


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:59:07 PM PST US
    From: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr>
    Subject: Re: Old trim wiring
    X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 22 [cn] SGkgUmFpbW8sDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgYXNzaXN0YW5jZSBJIGhhdmUgb25seSBhIG1haWwg bm8gZmF4IHNvcnJ5LCBpcyBpdCBwb3NzaWJsZSB0byBzY2FuIGFuZCBzZW5kIFBkZiBkb2N1bWVu dD8NCg0KR29vZCBkYXkNCg0KDQoyNy0wNS0yMDEwIA0KDQoNCg0KTWljaGVsIEFVVlJBWSANCg0K DQoNCkRlIDogUmFpbW8gVG9pdmlvIA0KRGF0ZS9oZXVyZSA6IDI2LTA1LTIwMTAgIDIxOjQ0OjM4 IA0KQSA6IGV1cm9wYS1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20gDQpDYyA6IA0KU3VqZXQgOiBSZTogRXVy b3BhLUxpc3Q6IE9sZCB0cmltIHdpcmluZyANCiANCk1pY2hlbCwNCg0KSSB0aGluayBJIGhhdmUg aXQgYW5kIEkgY291bGQgYWxzbyBmaW5kIGl0IQ0KV291bGQgeW91IHBsZWFzZSBnaXZlIG1lIGEg ZmF4IG51bWJlciB3aGVyZSB0byBzZW5kIGl0Pw0KDQpUZXJ2ZWlzaW4sIFJhaW1vIFRvaXZpbw0K DQpFdXJvcGEgWFMgTW9ubyBPSC1YUlQgIzQxNyArMTUwIGhycw0KDQozNzUwMCBMZW1w5ORs5A0K RklOTEFORA0KDQpwICszNTgtMy0zNzUzIDc3Nw0KZiAgKzM1OC0zLTM3NTMgMTAwDQoNCnRvaXZp b0BmbHkudG8NCnd3dy5yd20uZmkNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KRnJvbTogbWF1MTEgDQpT ZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIE1heSAyNiwgMjAxMCA0OjM0IFBNDQpUbzogZXVyb3BhLWxpc3RAbWF0 cm9uaWNzLmNvbSANClN1YmplY3Q6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBPbGQgdHJpbSB3aXJpbmcNCg0KDQpI aSBhbGwNCkkgaGF2ZSBNQUMgcGl0Y2ggdHJpbSBzaW5jZSAxOTk0LCBteSBpbnN0YWxsYXRpb24g aW5jbHVkZWQ6DQpSb2NrZXIgc3dpdGNoLCBncmlwIHN3aXRjaHMsIE5lZWRsZSBpbmRpY2F0b3Is IHJlbGF5IGFuZCBzcGVlZGNvbnRyb2wuDQpEb2VzIGFueW9uZSBoYXZlIG9sZCB3aXJpbmcgZHJh d2luZywgYmVjYXVzZSBJIHJlYnVpbGR0IHRoZSBwYW5lbCBhbmQgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSB0aGlzIGVs ZWN0cmljIHNjaGVtZS4NClRoYW5rcw0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KTWljaGVsIEFVVlJBWSANCjI2LTA1 LTIwMTANCg0KDQpocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vTmF2aWdhdG9yP0V1cm9w YS1MaXN0Ij5odHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNv bS8iPmh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQ0KaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25p Y3MuY29tL2NvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbiI+aHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2MNCg=


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:50:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Old trim wiring
    From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
    "I have only a mail no fax sorry, is it possible to scan and send Pdf document?" Just a quick note, we don't have a scanner @ hangar, however we have a camera. Taking a picture of a document is easy,good enough resolution in most cases. Saves hassle of bringing home and scan, then remembering to bring document to hangar and put it away. Ron Parigoris




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