---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/05/10: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:36 AM - Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman) 2. 04:26 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard) 3. 05:51 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman) 4. 06:30 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Kevin Klinefelter) 5. 07:09 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman) 6. 07:58 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Robert Borger) 7. 08:53 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman) 8. 09:44 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Paul McAllister) 9. 10:47 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (rampil) 10. 10:52 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (JEFF ROBERTS) 11. 11:00 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (G-IANI) 12. 11:02 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! () 13. 11:02 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Robert Borger) 14. 11:39 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Mike Parkin) 15. 11:52 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman) 16. 12:23 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman) 17. 12:23 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Brian Davies) 18. 12:38 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Rob Housman) 19. 01:34 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman) 20. 01:41 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 21. 03:25 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Robert Hatton) 22. 03:47 PM - deviations from manual (Fred Klein) 23. 03:49 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (rparigoris) 24. 03:51 PM - Re: deviations from manual (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 25. 03:57 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 26. 04:11 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Tony Renshaw) 27. 04:25 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Tony Renshaw) 28. 04:54 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Paul McAllister) 29. 05:00 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (JEFF ROBERTS) 30. 08:04 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Kevin Klinefelter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:45 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Gentlemen, Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914. Now, with increasing ambient temperatures, I have to severely limit my climb outs. Cruising is ok. During climb, both the water temperature and oil temperature approach the red line, more or less at the same time. Water temperature recovers faster than the oil temperature after I power down. At this time I can barely make it to circuit height and then have to level off, build more speed, and then limit my climb with 200 ft/min until I'm in cooler air. The engine has now 32 hours on it, so it might still improve somewhat further, but I don't expect miracles from that. I had to do something. First I made an additional exit in the cowling, under the turbo, hoping to provide more airflow. Whether the airflow in the cowling improved I don't know, but it had zero effect on the water and oil temperatures. Temperatures inside the cowling seem to be ok anyway, no discoloured spark plug indicator labels (still bright yellow), no melted tie-wraps, etc. My conclusion was that the problem is not in cooling of the cowling, but somewhere in the efficiency of the radiators. So then I built a new radiator inlet, somewhat larger than previous one, with a lip to avoid digesting the boundary layer and making sure the inlet receives ram air, angled straight into the airflow, and with a diffuser for which I copied a profile out of a famous book. It was no improvement over my "free style" sleeker inlet and diffuser. None. Very frustrating, as I ruined my nicely shaped and painted original inlet for this. I need to do something, but to avoid ruining again something in order to solve this problem, I need to hear some experiences: 1) A shroud over the cylinders. I don't have it, but instead I have two naca ducts in the upper cowling, curved down to release air aimed at the cylinders. Has anyone ever tried whether the Rotax shroud (or home made shroud) makes any difference? Sure, it will cool the cylinders, but does it have any effect over the water temperature and/or oil temperature? Or is this again going to be a loss in time and effort? 2) In my setup the oil cooler receives exit air from the water cooler. I know there is a "trick" mentioned in the build manual for hot climates to lower the oil radiator 2 inches to receive cold air instead of warm air, but I didn't opt for this as I don't consider our climate as extremely warm, and in winter the oild could actually get too cold. Has anyone tried both options, and did it make much difference? Also, did it have any influence over the water temperature? Relocating the oil radiator will be a large project, and I fear that after that I will still have to limit my climb outs to avoid the water from boiling. Yesterday on the airfield I took a closer look at the Rotax 914 equipped Dimona, which is used by the glider club to tow all day long gliders, with full power at 50 knots, in all ambient temperatures. They never have cooling problems. What I saw was shocking. The water radiator is fully exposed to the airstream, no diffuser whatsoever, it is just part of the cowling, as if someone took out some skin of the cowling and fitted the radiator in the resulting hole. The oil radiator is mounted in an angle behind a naca duct (I was taught that a naca duct does not provide ram air and shouldn't be used for cooling a radiator?). Both radiators just dump the warm air inside the cowling! It can't be easier than that. Then, at the bottom, the Dimona has a cowl flap which just opens the cowling to dump *all* air overboard. If it is closed, all radiators, as well as all cowling ventilation, is blocked. How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system, while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well? Anyway. At the moment I'm grounded, can't fly like this, and after spending a week trying to improve things with zero effect, I'm out of options and I'm inclined to leave the airplane in the hangar and find another hobby. :-( Seriously, what should I do? Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:08 AM PST US From: Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air baffles! Just a little gab is enough to spoil your day. Regards Gert OY-GDS / mono / 914 / 500 hours Den 05/06/2010 kl. 12.28 skrev Frans Veldman: > > Gentlemen, > > Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not > satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914. > > Now, with increasing ambient temperatures, I have to severely limit my > climb outs. Cruising is ok. During climb, both the water temperature and > oil temperature approach the red line, more or less at the same time. > Water temperature recovers faster than the oil temperature after I power > down. At this time I can barely make it to circuit height and then have > to level off, build more speed, and then limit my climb with 200 ft/min > until I'm in cooler air. The engine has now 32 hours on it, so it might > still improve somewhat further, but I don't expect miracles from that. > > I had to do something. > First I made an additional exit in the cowling, under the turbo, hoping > to provide more airflow. Whether the airflow in the cowling improved I > don't know, but it had zero effect on the water and oil temperatures. > > Temperatures inside the cowling seem to be ok anyway, no discoloured > spark plug indicator labels (still bright yellow), no melted tie-wraps, etc. > > My conclusion was that the problem is not in cooling of the cowling, but > somewhere in the efficiency of the radiators. > > So then I built a new radiator inlet, somewhat larger than previous one, > with a lip to avoid digesting the boundary layer and making sure the > inlet receives ram air, angled straight into the airflow, and with a > diffuser for which I copied a profile out of a famous book. > > It was no improvement over my "free style" sleeker inlet and diffuser. > None. Very frustrating, as I ruined my nicely shaped and painted > original inlet for this. > > I need to do something, but to avoid ruining again something in order to > solve this problem, I need to hear some experiences: > > 1) A shroud over the cylinders. I don't have it, but instead I have two > naca ducts in the upper cowling, curved down to release air aimed at the > cylinders. > Has anyone ever tried whether the Rotax shroud (or home made shroud) > makes any difference? Sure, it will cool the cylinders, but does it have > any effect over the water temperature and/or oil temperature? Or is this > again going to be a loss in time and effort? > > 2) In my setup the oil cooler receives exit air from the water cooler. I > know there is a "trick" mentioned in the build manual for hot climates > to lower the oil radiator 2 inches to receive cold air instead of warm > air, but I didn't opt for this as I don't consider our climate as > extremely warm, and in winter the oild could actually get too cold. > Has anyone tried both options, and did it make much difference? Also, > did it have any influence over the water temperature? Relocating the oil > radiator will be a large project, and I fear that after that I will > still have to limit my climb outs to avoid the water from boiling. > > Yesterday on the airfield I took a closer look at the Rotax 914 equipped > Dimona, which is used by the glider club to tow all day long gliders, > with full power at 50 knots, in all ambient temperatures. They never > have cooling problems. > > What I saw was shocking. The water radiator is fully exposed to the > airstream, no diffuser whatsoever, it is just part of the cowling, as if > someone took out some skin of the cowling and fitted the radiator in the > resulting hole. The oil radiator is mounted in an angle behind a naca > duct (I was taught that a naca duct does not provide ram air and > shouldn't be used for cooling a radiator?). Both radiators just dump the > warm air inside the cowling! It can't be easier than that. > Then, at the bottom, the Dimona has a cowl flap which just opens the > cowling to dump *all* air overboard. If it is closed, all radiators, as > well as all cowling ventilation, is blocked. > How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system, > while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well? > > Anyway. At the moment I'm grounded, can't fly like this, and after > spending a week trying to improve things with zero effect, I'm out of > options and I'm inclined to leave the airplane in the hangar and find > another hobby. :-( > > Seriously, what should I do? > > Frans > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:38 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! On 06/05/2010 01:22 PM, Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard wrote: > Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air > baffles! I replaced the entire Europa duct, but it mates with the cowling at some point of course. I didn't have the impression that it was very leaky, but at the moment I'm waiting for PUR-foam to cure (one side taped off of course) to see if there was indeed a leak. I'm hoping there was a leak, and I saw some bugs piled up in one corner just before the radiator, so that is a hopefull sign. :-) Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:31 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! I have the stock Europa cooling duct with the oil cooler lowered to the bottom of the cowling. As Gert suggests below, all gaps are sealed well, including the bottom of the oil cooler to the cowling and the sides of both coolers to the aluminum duct. I flew last week to Death Valley with a friend in the right seat. When we departed furnace creek(L06) the OAT was about 90 F. The climb from 200' below sea level to 11,000' at 90 to 100 knots indicated showed oil temps up to 240 F and the Evans coolant 230. CHT is always within 10 deg. of the coolant. I have been climbing most of the time at airspeeds around 100 knots and 100% (34"map) which yeilds a healthy climb rate. The temps inside the cowl have gotten high enough to deform the spark plug indicator labels. I wraped the exhaust pipes, but I'm not sure if that helped really because I don't have the cowl temps monitored. The OAT should exceed 100F today. Whew! Best of luck, Kevin Mono intercooled 914 Airmaster prop ----- Original Message ----- From: Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 4:22 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air baffles! Just a little gab is enough to spoil your day. Regards Gert OY-GDS / mono / 914 / 500 hours Den 05/06/2010 kl. 12.28 skrev Frans Veldman: Gentlemen, Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914. Now, with increasing ambient temperatures, I have to severely limit my climb outs. Cruising is ok. During climb, both the water temperature and oil temperature approach the red line, more or less at the same time. Water temperature recovers faster than the oil temperature after I power down. At this time I can barely make it to circuit height and then have to level off, build more speed, and then limit my climb with 200 ft/min until I'm in cooler air. The engine has now 32 hours on it, so it might still improve somewhat further, but I don't expect miracles from that. I had to do something. First I made an additional exit in the cowling, under the turbo, hoping to provide more airflow. Whether the airflow in the cowling improved I don't know, but it had zero effect on the water and oil temperatures. Temperatures inside the cowling seem to be ok anyway, no discoloured spark plug indicator labels (still bright yellow), no melted tie-wraps, etc. My conclusion was that the problem is not in cooling of the cowling, but somewhere in the efficiency of the radiators. So then I built a new radiator inlet, somewhat larger than previous one, with a lip to avoid digesting the boundary layer and making sure the inlet receives ram air, angled straight into the airflow, and with a diffuser for which I copied a profile out of a famous book. It was no improvement over my "free style" sleeker inlet and diffuser. None. Very frustrating, as I ruined my nicely shaped and painted original inlet for this. I need to do something, but to avoid ruining again something in order to solve this problem, I need to hear some experiences: 1) A shroud over the cylinders. I don't have it, but instead I have two naca ducts in the upper cowling, curved down to release air aimed at the cylinders. Has anyone ever tried whether the Rotax shroud (or home made shroud) makes any difference? Sure, it will cool the cylinders, but does it have any effect over the water temperature and/or oil temperature? Or is this again going to be a loss in time and effort? 2) In my setup the oil cooler receives exit air from the water cooler. I know there is a "trick" mentioned in the build manual for hot climates to lower the oil radiator 2 inches to receive cold air instead of warm air, but I didn't opt for this as I don't consider our climate as extremely warm, and in winter the oild could actually get too cold. Has anyone tried both options, and did it make much difference? Also, did it have any influence over the water temperature? Relocating the oil radiator will be a large project, and I fear that after that I will still have to limit my climb outs to avoid the water from boiling. Yesterday on the airfield I took a closer look at the Rotax 914 equipped Dimona, which is used by the glider club to tow all day long gliders, with full power at 50 knots, in all ambient temperatures. They never have cooling problems. What I saw was shocking. The water radiator is fully exposed to the airstream, no diffuser whatsoever, it is just part of the cowling, as if someone took out some skin of the cowling and fitted the radiator in the resulting hole. The oil radiator is mounted in an angle behind a naca duct (I was taught that a naca duct does not provide ram air and shouldn't be used for cooling a radiator?). Both radiators just dump the warm air inside the cowling! It can't be easier than that. Then, at the bottom, the Dimona has a cowl flap which just opens the cowling to dump *all* air overboard. If it is closed, all radiators, as well as all cowling ventilation, is blocked. How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system, while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well? Anyway. At the moment I'm grounded, can't fly like this, and after spending a week trying to improve things with zero effect, I'm out of options and I'm inclined to leave the airplane in the hangar and find another hobby. :-( Seriously, what should I - The Europa-List --> http://www.matroni &n - &nbs --> http://www.matronics.com/co================ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:36 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! On 06/05/2010 03:26 PM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: > I flew last week to Death Valley with a friend in the right seat. When > we departed furnace creek(L06) the OAT was about 90 F. The climb from > 200' below sea level to 11,000' at 90 to 100 knots indicated showed oil > temps up to 240 F and the Evans coolant 230. CHT is always within 10 > deg. of the coolant. Amazing! Do you have the Rotax shroud fitted over the cylinders? Has your engine had initial (< 50 hours) cooling issues? Has your oil cooler been lowered from the beginning, or did you relocate it later? If so, did it make some difference to the CHT's as well? Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! From: Robert Borger Frans, I flew last summer in temperatures in the high 90's to low 100's (35C-41C) with no signs of overheating. I have the stock FWF 914 setup with the following changes: 1. The lowered oil cooler. 2. I have sealed the sides of the radiators to the aluminum duct with silicone rubber seal 3. I have sealed the bottom of the oil cooler to the cowl with a foam strip 4. I replaced all the factory supplied tape for the front of the duct with wide silicone rubber seal 5. I smoothed the inside lower lip of the cowl intake with blue foam and 2 lays of glass to reduce turbulence and smooth flow I do not have the Rotax shroud over the cylinders but will consider it should cooling be inadequate this summer. I hope this helps, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232 http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046 Europa Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:28, Frans Veldman wrote: > > Gentlemen, > > Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not > satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914. > > Seriously, what should I do? > > Frans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:05 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! On 06/05/2010 04:56 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > I have the stock FWF 914 setup with the following changes: > > 1. The lowered oil cooler. Ok, it seems the common solution here is to lower the oil cooler. As I have fabricated my own duct, this is not possible in my setup. This means I will probably have to relocate the oil cooler and give it a dedicated inlet. One question: if you lower the oil cooler, how are the two coolers sealed against each other? Can air flow freely around the water cooler to reach the oil cooler? This means that the air in front of the water cooler will see an easier path and just forget about the water cooler? Is there anyone with adequate cooling on warmer days with both radiators behind each other, as the manual calls for? Or is this plainly impossible to achieve? Frans ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! From: Paul McAllister Hi All, I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine. Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:42 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Cooling issues, once again! From: "rampil" >>>>How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system, while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well? -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300132#300132 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! From: JEFF ROBERTS Frans, I have the 912 set up so I might not know what I'l talking about but... I had the very same issues for the first 150 hours. Every time it got hot I was in trouble with temps at their limit. I made the shroud for over the cylinders. I lowered the oil radiator 2 inches behind the water, I sealed everything, I made new inlets in the upper cowl, and still didn't get it solved completely. I then finally lowered the metal duct down an inch or so, so the bottom radiator reached the lower cowl without the sealant and bam. My temps dropped 30 to 40 degrees. I believe two things helped in this. The radiators we're getting more air but the big thing was by lowering the duct it opened the bottom for escaping air. Not sure if this all applies to you but if you have the duct up to high close to the muff all you need to do is lower it. You'l be needing to ad a flap in colder days to get things in the proper temp range. By the way the shroud did even the cylinder temps out but it didn't do much to cool the water or oil. Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:28 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > > > Gentlemen, > > Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not > satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914. > > Now, with increasing ambient temperatures, I have to severely limit my > climb outs. Cruising is ok. During climb, both the water temperature > and > oil temperature approach the red line, more or less at the same time. > Water temperature recovers faster than the oil temperature after I > power > down. At this time I can barely make it to circuit height and then > have > to level off, build more speed, and then limit my climb with 200 ft/ > min > until I'm in cooler air. The engine has now 32 hours on it, so it > might > still improve somewhat further, but I don't expect miracles from that. > > I had to do something. > First I made an additional exit in the cowling, under the turbo, > hoping > to provide more airflow. Whether the airflow in the cowling improved I > don't know, but it had zero effect on the water and oil temperatures. > > Temperatures inside the cowling seem to be ok anyway, no discoloured > spark plug indicator labels (still bright yellow), no melted tie- > wraps, etc. > > My conclusion was that the problem is not in cooling of the cowling, > but > somewhere in the efficiency of the radiators. > > So then I built a new radiator inlet, somewhat larger than previous > one, > with a lip to avoid digesting the boundary layer and making sure the > inlet receives ram air, angled straight into the airflow, and with a > diffuser for which I copied a profile out of a famous book. > > It was no improvement over my "free style" sleeker inlet and diffuser. > None. Very frustrating, as I ruined my nicely shaped and painted > original inlet for this. > > I need to do something, but to avoid ruining again something in > order to > solve this problem, I need to hear some experiences: > > 1) A shroud over the cylinders. I don't have it, but instead I have > two > naca ducts in the upper cowling, curved down to release air aimed at > the > cylinders. > Has anyone ever tried whether the Rotax shroud (or home made shroud) > makes any difference? Sure, it will cool the cylinders, but does it > have > any effect over the water temperature and/or oil temperature? Or is > this > again going to be a loss in time and effort? > > 2) In my setup the oil cooler receives exit air from the water > cooler. I > know there is a "trick" mentioned in the build manual for hot climates > to lower the oil radiator 2 inches to receive cold air instead of warm > air, but I didn't opt for this as I don't consider our climate as > extremely warm, and in winter the oild could actually get too cold. > Has anyone tried both options, and did it make much difference? Also, > did it have any influence over the water temperature? Relocating the > oil > radiator will be a large project, and I fear that after that I will > still have to limit my climb outs to avoid the water from boiling. > > Yesterday on the airfield I took a closer look at the Rotax 914 > equipped > Dimona, which is used by the glider club to tow all day long gliders, > with full power at 50 knots, in all ambient temperatures. They never > have cooling problems. > > What I saw was shocking. The water radiator is fully exposed to the > airstream, no diffuser whatsoever, it is just part of the cowling, > as if > someone took out some skin of the cowling and fitted the radiator in > the > resulting hole. The oil radiator is mounted in an angle behind a naca > duct (I was taught that a naca duct does not provide ram air and > shouldn't be used for cooling a radiator?). Both radiators just dump > the > warm air inside the cowling! It can't be easier than that. > Then, at the bottom, the Dimona has a cowl flap which just opens the > cowling to dump *all* air overboard. If it is closed, all radiators, > as > well as all cowling ventilation, is blocked. > How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system, > while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well? > > Anyway. At the moment I'm grounded, can't fly like this, and after > spending a week trying to improve things with zero effect, I'm out of > options and I'm inclined to leave the airplane in the hangar and find > another hobby. :-( > > Seriously, what should I do? > > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:13 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Frans and all My aircraft (G-IANI)is a 914 with no shroud and the standard cowl. The aircraft ran hot on UK "hot" days until I lowered the oil cooler. We also had the same with G-IRON. Lowering the Oil radiator as far as possible and ensuring complete sealing all round fixed the problem. They both run cool in winter (oil temp 70 - 80c rather than the desirable 100c and this is the reason for the thermostat mod. I have used a rubber strip attached to the top of the oil rad to seal the gap between it and the water rad. This stops the air taking the short cut. You can just see this seal (black rubber) in the attached picture. I have more pictures and details if you want them. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:38 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Frans,I would suggest that you take a look at the bottom of the cowl, where all of the air escapes from inside the cowl..No cooling will take place unless the air inside the cowl can get out. You said you replaced the entire duct work...You may have restricted the exit area in some form or other. If you see anything that will restrict the flow of air to the outside, can it be moved? Can it be reduced in size? It is critical thatthe exit area does not restrict the flow of the exit air... Jim Brown Europa XS 914 ---- Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 06/05/2010 01:22 PM, Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard wrote: > > Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air > > baffles! > > I replaced the entire Europa duct, but it mates with the cowling at some > point of course. I didn't have the impression that it was very leaky, > but at the moment I'm waiting for PUR-foam to cure (one side taped off > of course) to see if there was indeed a leak. I'm hoping there was a > leak, and I saw some bugs piled up in one corner just before the > radiator, so that is a hopefull sign. :-) > > Frans > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:45 AM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Paul, I don't see how it can. Simple thermodynamics is against it. Heat transfer is directly proportional to temperature difference. Both radiators are at about the same temperature. Once the air has been heated by the first radiator its ability to accept heat from the second has been greatly reduced if not eliminated. And this is assuming that the area below the radiators has been sealed so that the air goes through the radiators and not under them, doing no good at all. Check six, Bob Borger http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Europa XS, Short Wing, Intercooled Rotax 914 rlborger@mac.com Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jun 5, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: > Hi All, > > I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine. > > Thanks, Paul > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:35 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Frans, I have a standard XS 914 installation. In the early days I had a problem with cooling until I lowered the oil cooler in accordance with the build manual. Once the cooler was lowered I had no problems whatsoever until I filled the system with Evans. That pushed the temperatures close to the limit, so I threw the Evans away. Since then I have had no issues. True, UK summer temperatures are not in the same league as our American friends... I recall that the temperature in my yard in Phoenix, Az occasionally was 120+. However, UK temperatures are very similar to the Netherlands. I refer to your email dated 2 Mar 2009, your theory and confidence was most impressive. Your penultimate paragraph was quite damming. I quote. >>Of course, al this is theory. Because the cooling properties of the >>factory cowling are so bad, I believe that it would actually be >>difficult to make it worse. So chances are that my cooling at least >>gives some better cooling and aerodynamics. Perhaps Ivan, Andy and Neville at Europa had a better clue than you give them credit for. If I was one of the boys, I might be tempted to send you a big piece of 'Humble Pie'. Regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:44 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! On 06/05/2010 08:02 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > Once the air has been > heated by the first radiator its ability to accept heat from the second > has been greatly reduced if not eliminated. Ok, thanks everyone! The picture is much more clear to me now. It seems that splitting up the oil and water radiator is the way to go. About a month ago, the system was working quite ok. Amazing how little OAT difference can spoil the setup. When I saw the Europa radiator setup for the first time, I had some doubts about it. But because the Europa lacks a thermostat, I figured that the oil cooler behind the water radiator was on purpose, to prevent the oil temps from dropping too low. The manual explicitely calls for "hot climats" to use the "option" to lower the oil radiator. With hindsight, I think this description is somewhat misleading. As some have noticed, I trimmed down the cooling duct considerably, added a diffuser, added a cowl flap, to optimize both aerodynamics and cooling capacity. Although it seems my ship is indeed quite fast for a tri-gear, the oil cooler is not going to work efficiently this way. Too bad that I don't have room to lower the oil radiator, so I'm going to have to relocate the oil cooler. I now appreciate the term "experimental airplane". :-S Some have mentioned that the exit area of the cowling might be a problem. However, so far I have no indication that the exit area is the bottleneck. In area it is bigger than the inlet, and I have no signs of elevated cowling temperatures like discoloured spark plug labels. Also, some experiments to open up more cowl space had zero effects on the temperatures. I'm glad to hear that the Rotax shroud isn't a necessary item. Thanks everyone! Frans ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:08 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! On 06/05/2010 08:38 PM, Mike Parkin wrote: > I have a standard XS 914 installation. In the early days I had a problem > with cooling until I lowered the oil cooler in accordance with the build > manual. Ok, this is in line with other experiences. Thanks for sharing this. > I refer to your email dated 2 Mar 2009, your theory and confidence was most > impressive. I was waiting for this to pop up. ;-) No problem at all, I'm still behind it, I just feel somewhat mislead by the strong suggestion of the manual that the oil cooler behind the water radiator is the standard setup for normal climats, and I followed that guideline. Granted, I should have known better. Anyway, if I write something on this forum, it is "sharing knowledge" and not a competitive attempt. I will as easily explain why I divert from the manual some times, and as easily seek for help on this forum if I experience problems. I don't really care about ego, so I find it somewhat humorous if an attempt to receive some experiences from others is answered by an answer like yours. > Perhaps Ivan, Andy and Neville at Europa had a better clue than you give > them credit for. IF their original setup, with the non-lowered oil radiator as the factory manual calls for, works better than my current setup. And that remains to be seen... At least it looks like my claim to have better aerodynamics might be true, with a cooling system that performs, let's say, not worse than the factory setup with the radiators in the "standard" configuration. ;-) Well, I will split up the oil and water radiator, as apparently everyone has done, and then we can do the comparison again. ;-) > If I was one of the boys, I might be tempted to send you a big piece of > 'Humble Pie'. If I was one of these boys, I would be tempted so as well, IF my work was a masterpiece of enginering, well thought out, working in hot climates AND cold climates, and with no excess drag, and with even cylinder temperatures. However, it looks like the standard factory setup, with the coolers in series, is not exactly the best solution for everyone. So, have some fun about me. It is not the first time people laugh about work in progress. Finally, I might end up with an improvement over the factory setup, in both aerodynamics and in cooling capacity. Goal 1 appears to have been achieved already. I consider solving problems as a privilege of building the airplane yourself, and you can't have it right the first time everyime. Frans ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:08 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Yes, mine! but it is a 912S. I have always had low oil temps and have now fitted the oil thermostat so that they are not too low in winter. Regards Brian Davies Kit 454, Trigear _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 05 June 2010 17:44 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Hi All, I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine. Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:50 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! While it is true that "heat transfer is directly proportional to temperature difference" that does not tell the whole story. First, remember that the relevant temperature difference is the difference between the temperature of the fluid on the inside and the air on the outside, and even with pre-heated air the second radiator could have the same delta T as the first radiator. I'll grant you that there is probably a difference, however. Also relevant, and non-trivial, are the area of the heat transfer surface, the flow rate of the liquids inside the heat exchangers (radiators, in common aircraft and automotive parlance), the flow rate of the air outside these heat exchangers, the heat transfer coefficients for each of the fluids involved, the heat transfer coefficients of the materials from which the radiators are made, the effect of any scale or similar deposits on the heat transfer surfaces (both inside and outside), Reynolds numbers for the flowing fluids (a function of flow rates and fluid properties), and the physical properties the radiators and of the coolant and oil flowing within the heat exchangers. Having said all of that, there is no doubt that "re-using" the cooling air will affect heat transfer within the radiator using pre-heated air, and this is undoubtedly why Europa recommend placing one below the other. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 11:02 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Paul, I don't see how it can. Simple thermodynamics is against it. Heat transfer is directly proportional to temperature difference. Both radiators are at about the same temperature. Once the air has been heated by the first radiator its ability to accept heat from the second has been greatly reduced if not eliminated. And this is assuming that the area below the radiators has been sealed so that the air goes through the radiators and not under them, doing no good at all. Check six, Bob Borger http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Europa XS, Short Wing, Intercooled Rotax 914 rlborger@mac.com Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jun 5, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: Hi All, I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine. Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:19 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! On 06/05/2010 09:26 PM, Rob Housman wrote: > Having said all of that, there is no doubt that re-using the cooling > air will affect heat transfer within the radiator using pre-heated air, > and this is undoubtedly why Europa recommend placing one below the other. Another reason might be that the oil cooler in the air exit path of the water radiator is an obstacle that hinders the air flow in the water radiator? Looking closer to both radiators, It appears to me that the oil cooler has closer spaced fins, thicker fluid canals, and an overall smaller useful area. It might be that this is the reason why lowering the oil radiator also causes the water temperatures to drop. Frans ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:55 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! You could be right there Frans. btw theory says that cowl inlet should be m uch smaller than rad area so that some pressure recovery can happen, also l ips must be smooth.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0AFrom: Frans Veldman =0ATo: europa-list@matronics .com=0ASent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 21:27:33=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Co dman =0A=0AOn 06/05/2010 09:26 PM, Rob Housman wrot e:=0A=0ALooking closer to both radiators, It appears to me that the oil coo ler=0Ahas closer spaced fins, thicker fluid canals, and an overall smaller =0Auseful area.=0AIt might be that this is the reason why lowering the oil radiator also=0Acauses the water temperatures to drop.=0A=0AFrans=0A=0A=0A_ -======================== =============== ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:47 PM PST US From: "Robert Hatton" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! I have been following the cooling topic and wondered what the forum thought about using Evans coolant? I noticed Kevin uses Evans from his Death Valley flight description, but Mike Parkin threw his away! I am about to refill my radiators and was considering Evans as the way to go. I am based in Colorado and expect hotter temperatures in the summer than northern Europe and cooler ones in the winter. I would welcome anyone=99s advice and experiences. BTW =93 on my 912UL installation the Oil cooler was lowered and made a dramatic difference =93 stable temperatures and no sign of overheating when the aircraft was flying in the UK. I am considering lowering the Oil Cooler for my 914 installation for the temperatures get up to the high end of the scale during climb out, but do stabilize in the cruise. Robert Hatton email: roberthatton1@googlemail.com From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 9:38 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! You could be right there Frans. btw theory says that cowl inlet should be much smaller than rad area so that some pressure recovery can happen, also lips must be smooth. Graham _____ From: Frans Veldman Sent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 21:27:33 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! On 06/05/2010 09:26 PM, Rob Housman wrote: Looking closer to both radiators, It appears to me that the oil cooler has closer spaced fins, thicker fluid canals, and an overall smaller useful area. It might be that this is the reason why lowering the oil radiator also causes the water tem/Navigator?Europa-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.  tronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri======== ======= ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:51 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: deviations from manual Deviating from the standard build can be a slippery slope...I find a sense of humor helps, Fred A194 do not archive DSCN2392.JPG ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:42 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Cooling issues, once again! From: "rparigoris" Hi Frans My 2 cents from someone not yet flying. First off I have an XS with Monowheel with standard stainless firewall and intercooler on starboard side, both hinder cooling. Here is some information. Not in any sort of organized order: **Gilles did a beautiful job making a cowl for his tiny 914 powered craft. No two holes even in front, only one cooling air baffle intake. I think he has his radiators stacked one behind other. anyway here is some links: http://contrails.free.fr/engine_aerodyn_radia_en.php http://contrails.free.fr/tunnel_en.php http://contrails.free.fr/diap/phpslideshow.php?directory=diapo_capot_if He says very sucessfull install. **With Rotax 914 it is best to make sure you are not running too lean. Using a carbon monoxide tester is an awful good solution. Not only can you measure each cylinder when making war emergency power (115%), you can also verify 100% and 85% is OK too. Throwing a little gas on the fire in fact helps keep things cool. I have incorporated a rich switch that activates the enrichment solenoid at will, I suspect 85% on up will run cooler when you enrich a little (computer does it for you over 100% power, best diode isolate your input so as to not hurt TCU). If you are interested will give full details. Again mixture is critical not running too lean at high power setting, mogas with alcohol will run leaner than mogas without alcohol, thus even if 914 was factory jetted, I question just how well the jetting is with the stuff coming out of mogas pump. Main jet, jet needle and needle jet control 85% on up mixture, main jet mostly at full throttle. I am going to run a bit rich and use mixture control to lean to my liking. **Constipation is a big problem, Ira mentioned using an airspeed indicator to see where high and low pressure area is. You can read here what I am doing: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28737 I want to be able to cool in worst case scenario, and will warm things up with an oil thermostat and an air plug in the intake of radiator duct (reversed direction fan). To unconstipate going to drop aft part of cowl ~3/4 to 1", and widen the exit area of cowl a bit. I will also use two model aeroplane electric motors to exhaust through gills on ground and in climb. Will use a model aeroplane folding propeller fan in radiator duct to help pressurize duct on ground and in climb. It will be reversible to hinder cooling (and hopeful drag) in cruise. You don't need much amps to cause an awful clog. **I am going to get my radiator coated with a coating that supposedly increases efficency. **I will have my exhaust coated with a coating that is supposedly time tested from Rotax research arm, limits some heat going into cowl. If I want to limit more heat going into cowl will wrap exhaust, but makes for harder inspection. BTW Gilles wrapped his turbo. **I am installing Rotax cooling air baffle. One problem with the baffle is upon shut down it tends to hold in more heat than without the baffle. With my fans, will just let run on low upon shut down. **Using something like an automobile windshield washer pump and spray head misting radiators with water could keep you cool till you hit on something that works. I have a 2004 Volvo V-70 turbo and it has two, 3 stream spray head mister that does a pretty good job, you would only need one. This is completely off topic, but if you ever get someone tailgating you when driving and there is no need for someone to be doing this, spray your windshield washer, I mean continuous, yes it will cost you a refill but will make the tailgater back away (way annoying to tailgater) and gratifying to you. Have a friend do this to you to see just how well it works. **Instead of guessing put some temp measuring instruments in various locations FWF, once you get a baseline you can see how you are doing. That goes too for measuring pressures. **As far as dropping oil radiator, think an awful good idea (or move it), remember Europa radiator is a lot deeper than other MFGs use. **My decision to go route of tweaking supplied cowl/cooling system instead of major rethink, is not only time required (ask Paul about speed of such a project), but distinct fooling probably needed after the fact that it may never be to my liking before I lose interest and ability. Kudos to Gilles to bringing his cowl/cooling to fruition! Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300164#300164 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:02 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: deviations from manual That got a chuckle Fred!=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________ ________=0AFrom: Fred Klein =0ATo: europa-list@matr onics.com=0ASent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 23:46:52=0ASubject: Europa-List: d eviations from manual=0A=0A=0ADeviating from the standard build can be a sl ippery slope...I find a sense of humor helps,=0A=0AFred =0AA194=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0ADSCN2392.JPG ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:18 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Frans=0Amight be worth doing an oil flow test flight. Paint old engine oil on the fromnt of the cowling, fly at climb speed for a few minutes to stabi lze the airflow pattern then land and take photos.=0AAll the EZ gurus do th is and they have impressive results, especially Gary Hertzler, he's my favo urite guru.=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFr om: Frans Veldman =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 11:28:25=0ASubject: Europa-List: Cooling is ans@privatepilots.nl>=0A=0AGentlemen,=0A=0AAlthough my initial cooling issu es have been improved upon, I'm not=0Asatisfied at all with the cooling of my 914. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! From: Tony Renshaw Hey Paul, I'd like to give you a call and don't have your no? Would you be able to beam it over, and your address? Are you a Skype person, and if so, what is your Skype name. So, how are your mods going on your plane? Reg Tony R. On 06/06/2010, at 2:43 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: > Hi All, > > I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set > up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine. > > Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! From: Tony Renshaw Hey Frans, Sorry to hear about your cooling issues, especially after your effort with mods. What is this PUR-foam all about please?? How many hours have you clocked up, and how are you finding the bird?? Reg Tony Renshaw On 05/06/2010, at 10:50 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 06/05/2010 01:22 PM, Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard wrote: >> Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air >> baffles! > > I replaced the entire Europa duct, but it mates with the cowling at some > point of course. I didn't have the impression that it was very leaky, > but at the moment I'm waiting for PUR-foam to cure (one side taped off > of course) to see if there was indeed a leak. I'm hoping there was a > leak, and I saw some bugs piled up in one corner just before the > radiator, so that is a hopefull sign. :-) > > Frans > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! From: Paul McAllister H Frans, I have a few questions. Have you tried 100% power in straight and level flight. If so, do you get sufficient cooling ? If you are able to get sufficient cooling at 100 or even 115% power while flying level then you know that your radiator capacity is correct and you have issues with the inlet at high angles of attack. Another possibility is that air is flowing out of your NACA vents at a high angle of attack thus reversing the direction of air flow under the cowling while climbing. The reason this is a possibility is that the low pressure area moves forward at higher angle of attacks. A couple of suggestions. 1. A gentle flight around the pattern with an 'oil streak' test to see if the diffusers are working as expected. 2. 100% level flight test to see if you have sufficient cooling capacity 3. Blocking the NACA vents and seeing if what happens in the climb. Finally, Ron's suggestion of a spray bar is a good one, it will keep you flying until you get this all figured out. Good luck, Paul ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:58 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Just my two cents worth... Drop the Evans idea. 50 50 runs much cooler and you can get it anywhere. Why risk it. Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Robert Hatton wrote: > I have been following the cooling topic and wondered what the forum > thought about using Evans coolant? > > I noticed Kevin uses Evans from his Death Valley flight description, > but Mike Parkin threw his away! > > I am about to refill my radiators and was considering Evans as the > way to go. I am based in Colorado and expect hotter temperatures in > the summer than northern Europe and cooler ones in the winter. > > I would welcome anyone=92s advice and experiences. > > BTW ' on my 912UL installation the Oil cooler was lowered and made a > dramatic difference ' stable temperatures and no sign of overheating > when the aircraft was flying in the UK. I am considering lowering > the Oil Cooler for my 914 installation for the temperatures get up > to the high end of the scale during climb out, but do stabilize in > the cruise. > > Robert Hatton > email: roberthatton1@googlemail.com > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 9:38 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! > > You could be right there Frans. btw theory says that cowl inlet > should be much smaller than rad area so that some pressure recovery > can happen, also lips must be smooth. > Graham > > From: Frans Veldman > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 21:27:33 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! > > > > On 06/05/2010 09:26 PM, Rob Housman wrote: > > Looking closer to both radiators, It appears to me that the oil cooler > has closer spaced fins, thicker fluid canals, and an overall smaller > useful area. > It might be that this is the reason why lowering the oil radiator also > causes the water tem/Navigator?Europa-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com > " target="_blank">http://forums.matronics. >  tronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http:// > www.matronics.com/contri================ > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:51 PM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Hi Franz, No, I do not have the cylinder shroud. My engine now has 180 hrs. Before these last few flights all my flying was done at lower, winter, temperatures (I have spent my summers working in Alaska and decided to leave the plane in the hanger at KBIH till I get more confidence landing this thing.) My oil cooler has been lowered from the begining, in fact all has remained the same except for adding the exhaust wrap and a cabin heater flap off the back of the cooling duct. I just got back from flying today. OAT at KBIH was 38c. At 100knots indicated climb the oil stabilised at 230F and CHT at 245. The temps will go higher at lower climb speeds, but that is at 100% (not 115%) and 5500rpm. I can tell that running for very long on the ground at these high OATs will not be good. Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frans Veldman" Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 7:08 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! > > On 06/05/2010 03:26 PM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: > >> I flew last week to Death Valley with a friend in the right seat. When >> we departed furnace creek(L06) the OAT was about 90 F. The climb from >> 200' below sea level to 11,000' at 90 to 100 knots indicated showed oil >> temps up to 240 F and the Evans coolant 230. CHT is always within 10 >> deg. of the coolant. > > Amazing! > Do you have the Rotax shroud fitted over the cylinders? > Has your engine had initial (< 50 hours) cooling issues? > Has your oil cooler been lowered from the beginning, or did you relocate > it later? If so, did it make some difference to the CHT's as well? > > Frans > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.