Europa-List Digest Archive

Sun 06/06/10


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:35 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Brian Davies)
     2. 10:15 AM - Cooling issues, once again! (Erich Trombley)
     3. 12:13 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
     4. 12:40 PM - Re: Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
     5. 12:41 PM - Rotax 914 Intercooler (Frans Veldman)
     6. 01:04 PM - Europa - Battery cable sizing (Bob Fairall)
     7. 02:09 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (zwakie)
     8. 02:29 PM - Re: Europa - Battery cable sizing (Kevin Klinefelter)
     9. 02:47 PM - Re: Rotax 914 Intercooler (Kevin Klinefelter)
    10. 02:56 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (rparigoris)
    11. 03:13 PM - Re: Rotax 914 Intercooler (rparigoris)
    12. 03:30 PM - Re: Europa - Battery cable sizing (rparigoris)
    13. 03:42 PM - Re: Europa - Battery cable sizing (Bob Fairall)
    14. 04:42 PM - Combustion air inlets (Fred Klein)
    15. 11:22 PM - Re: Combustion air inlets (Frans Veldman)
    16. 11:48 PM - Re: Combustion air inlets (Fred Klein)
 
 
 


Message 1


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:35:16 AM PST US
    From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
    Subject: Cooling issues, once again!
    I run have run Evans from new, with completely standard installation and no cooling problems. Max OAT I have experienced is 28C. I suspect some of the problems with Evans have been caused by switching to it from standard 50:50 without getting rid of every last drop of the old stuff before using Evans . The instructions do warn of this problem. Brian Davies 912S Trigear _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Hatton Sent: 05 June 2010 23:18 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! I have been following the cooling topic and wondered what the forum thought about using Evans coolant? I noticed Kevin uses Evans from his Death Valley flight description, but Mike Parkin threw his away! I am about to refill my radiators and was considering Evans as the way to go. I am based in Colorado and expect hotter temperatures in the summer than northern Europe and cooler ones in the winter. I would welcome anyone's advice and experiences. BTW - on my 912UL installation the Oil cooler was lowered and made a dramatic difference - stable temperatures and no sign of overheating when the aircraft was flying in the UK. I am considering lowering the Oil Cooler for my 914 installation for the temperatures get up to the high end of the scale during climb out, but do stabilize in the cruise. Robert Hatton email: roberthatton1@googlemail.com From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 9:38 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! You could be right there Frans. btw theory says that cowl inlet should be much smaller than rad area so that some pressure recovery can happen, also lips must be smooth. Graham _____ From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl> Sent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 21:27:33 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! On 06/05/2010 09:26 PM, Rob Housman wrote: Looking closer to both radiators, It appears to me that the oil cooler has closer spaced fins, thicker fluid canals, and an overall smaller useful area. It might be that this is the reason why lowering the oil radiator also causes the water tem/Navigator?Europa-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics. &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri=============== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 2


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 10:15:30 AM PST US
    From: "Erich Trombley" <erichdtrombley@juno.com>
    Subject: Cooling issues, once again!
    Frans, I have a one off custom FWF that uses the stock engine mount, water rad iator and oil cooler (located one behind the other which in many aspects is close to what you have done). I had a very similar experience to yo urs in that I conducted my first flight in January when temps were mild and as summer approached I ran into major cooling issues just as you des cribed. I do not believe dropping the oil cooler will do anything for y ou if your design is like mine in that it is properly sealed around the inlet of the water radiator. Because my water radiator and oil cooler a re in line I have sealed the space between them on the top. The sides a nd bottom are sealed around the sides of the cowling. I will try and po st a picture of this. Anyway, what Rob states below about heat transfer is spot on. You need to look at it as a system. In addition the oil a nd water dog house which measures 2.375" x 7.375" at the inlet, my init ial design had two very small round openings (2" diameter) in a location close to the stock cowling. Like Kevin I am able to climb out at high power settings (usually 31" MP ) to the high teens without issue so long as I don't go slower than 90 K IAS. This limits the nose high attitude. Any slower and I will start t o overheat. BTW I live in Las Vegas, NV and we have been know to have a warm day every now and then. Yesterday we hit 108 deg F. This is what I did to solve my cooling problem which was pretty straight forward: I enlarged the 2" diameter holes to create a horizontal teardr op. The extra air flowing over the top of the engine was sufficient to keep it cool both on the ground and during climb. I also use Evans cool ing which did increase my temps by about 10 degrees C over 50/50 water & antifreeze but provides a higher boiling point. I was initially tempte d to lower the oil cooler, however, this would have been a major modific ation with my design, so that was out and it was doubtful from a system perspective if this would have really helped. It is another matter if I had the stock Europa cowling since there is a large gap at the bottom o f the cowl and lowering the oil cooler fills this space preventing the a ir from bypassing around the radiator and oil cooler. I didn't have thi s issue with my design as noted above. So, two options were left, incre ase the size of the oil cooler and radiator, or open up the round holes to provide more flow over and around the engine. The latter was the eas iest to option and worked out well for me. My guess though is that a la rger radiator and oil cooler, retaining my original 2" holes would resul t is the least drag option. Keep in mind I am near red line during clim b usually around 125 deg C. on oil temp which leads CHT. I hope the ab ove is helpful. Good luck. Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 Time: 12:38:50 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" <europa@hyperion-ef.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! While it is true that "heat transfer is directly proportional to tempera ture difference" that does not tell the whole story. First, remember that th e relevant temperature difference is the difference between the temperatur e of the fluid on the inside and the air on the outside, and even with pre-he ated air the second radiator could have the same delta T as the first radiato r. I'll grant you that there is probably a difference, however. Also relevant, and non-trivial, are the area of the heat transfer surfac e, the flow rate of the liquids inside the heat exchangers (radiators, in common aircraft and automotive parlance), the flow rate of the air outsi de these heat exchangers, the heat transfer coefficients for each of the fl uids involved, the heat transfer coefficients of the materials from which the radiators are made, the effect of any scale or similar deposits on the h eat transfer surfaces (both inside and outside), Reynolds numbers for the flowing fluids (a function of flow rates and fluid properties), and the physical properties the radiators and of the coolant and oil flowing wit hin the heat exchangers. Having said all of that, there is no doubt that "re-using" the cooling a ir will affect heat transfer within the radiator using pre-heated air, and this is undoubtedly why Europa recommend placing one below the other. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borg er Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 11:02 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Paul, I don't see how it can. Simple thermodynamics is against it. Heat tran sfer is directly proportional to temperature difference. Both radiators are at about the same temperature. Once the air has been heated by the first radiator its ability to accept heat from the second has been greatly red uced if not eliminated. And this is assuming that the area below the radiators has been sealed s o that the air goes through the radiators and not under them, doing no goo d at all. Check six, Bob Borger http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Europa XS, Short Wing, Intercooled Rotax 914 rlborger@mac.com Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jun 5, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: Hi All, I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling se t up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine. Thanks, Paul ____________________________________________________________ New Era Diets (SHOCKER) Simple weight loss secret to lose 12 pounds in 30 days http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4c0bd60fd33c721fa54st04vuc


    Message 3


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:13:26 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Cooling issues, once again!
    On 06/06/2010 07:07 PM, Erich Trombley wrote: > I have a one off custom FWF that uses the stock engine mount, water > radiator and oil cooler (located one behind the other which in many > aspects is close to what you have done). I had a very similar > experience to yours in that I conducted my first flight in January > when temps were mild and as summer approached I ran into major > cooling issues just as you described. It looks indeed like your setup is quite similar to mine. Just like you, I can't drop the oil cooler without major modifications. > This is what I did to solve my cooling problem which was pretty > straight forward: I enlarged the 2" diameter holes to create a > horizontal teardrop. The extra air flowing over the top of the > engine was sufficient to keep it cool both on the ground and during > climb. I have two naca ducts in the top cowling with a diffuser angled down so it dumps the air on top of the cylinders. After some testing, I believe that in my situation the answer should not be found in increasing the cowling airflow. Reasons are: 1) There are no signs of elevated temperatures inside my cowling. No color changes, no melted plastic parts, etc. 2) I had the large 3" stock cowling inlets plugged, but openen them again in the hope that this would enhance cooling. Well, it didn't. There was a very slight improvement in ground cooling, but not in flight. 3) As the Rotax engine is mainly water cooled, it is more efficient to cool it by water than by air. All air taken away from the front of the airplane reduces pressure recovery and results in more drag. So we should try to use the cooling air as efficiently as possible. True, if I remove the cowling completely the engine runs much cooler. But how much drag are we creating with that? The more I learn about this subject, the more clear it becomes to me that two radiators in series is a bad design. The front radiator has no free exit, the air flow is impeded by the second radiator. This severely reduces air flow through the radiator. Less airflow is less cooling. The second radiator receives hot air from the first radiator. Less temperature difference is less cooling. Also this radiator suffers from reduced airflow because of the drag of the first radiator. So, as it already turned out that two radiators in series doesn't work well in my case (and in the case of the majority of the forum members) I'm going to change it. (In your situation it works, but even with your enlarged cowling openings, you are still balancing on the red line and have to limit climbing to less than Vy. It is better than what I have now, but now I have to work on it anyway, my goal is to solve the issue completely.) The idea is now to take the oil radiator completely away, so the water radiator can vent the air freely. For the oil radiator I will take a smaller one (everyone reports too much oil cooling once the oil cooler is lowered and it is no longer fed with hot air), fit it somewhere else in the cowling, and connect it with a scat tube to a dedicated air inlet. Additional advantage is that I can put a butterfly valve in the scat tube and so reduce the cooling air for the oil cooler in winter (or during warm up), which I think is better than a thermostat (less oil line connections, and less drag: we are not going to spend energy to drag air through a radiator while we actually don't want to cool the stuff inside at all). For the moment I will dump the exit air from the oil cooler inside the cowling. The 914 equipped Dimona does it that way, and it tows all day long gliders with full power at no more than 50 knots, in hot weather, without any cooling issues. If really needed I can give it a dedicated output, but for the moment I will try it this way. The Rotax manual says that the water radiator releases 30 kW and the oil cooler 7 kW. So, the oil cooler accounts only for about 20% of the total heat release. I think it is a good idea to separate it totally from the water radiator. Thanks for sharing your experiences! Frans


    Message 4


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:40:29 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Cooling issues, once again!
    On 06/06/2010 12:49 AM, rparigoris wrote: > I have incorporated a > rich switch that activates the enrichment solenoid at will A good idea. I like it for emergency use, but to use a richer mixture to solve cooling flaws is something I consider a last resort. > mogas > with alcohol will run leaner than mogas without alcohol, Good point. I use mogas, but haven't bothered too much to see if there is alcohol inside. > Constipation is a big problem, Ira mentioned using an > airspeed indicator to see where high and low pressure area is. Good idea as well. Guess it is time to source ebay for a used ASI. > I will also use two model aeroplane electric motors to exhaust through > gills on ground and in climb. Well, I'm not too fond of this idea. It is somewhat strange to have to use fans in a vehicle that has already a large big fan in front, and which moves fast by nature. There is plenty of airflow available, it is just a matter to find a way to let physics do the work for you. > I will have my exhaust coated with a coating > that is supposedly time tested from Rotax research arm, limits some > heat going into cowl. If I want to limit more heat going into cowl > will wrap exhaust, but makes for harder inspection. Keep in mind that heat release is actually a good thing. Heating the air inside the cowl increases the volume of the air, and thus creates extra pressure on the exit. This reduces drag. Jet engines work that way as well. ;-) Further, the cooler the air escaping from the exhaust, the less noisy it is, and the less turbulence it causes. This again results in less drag. With a proper airflow inside the cowling (from top to bottom) you are using waste cooling air from the cylinders to cool the exhaust tubes. This heated air should just go to the exit, and nowhere else. If this is the case, it is worth cooling the exhaust as much as possible. > Using something like an automobile windshield > washer pump and spray head misting radiators with water could keep > you cool till you hit on something that works. This means I would have to install a water tank, carry water as ballast, install electrics, etc. I think in the same time I could relocate the oil cooler. If the vendors cooperate, I will be flying again within a week. Frans


    Message 5


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:41:35 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Rotax 914 Intercooler
    Talking about cooling... I have the intercooler for the Rotax 914, per factory setup. My airbox temperature sensor shows no difference if I seal off the intercooler! While solving my cooling problems, I learned a few things: 1) Naca ducts provide no ram air, but merely "allow air to get in". 2) The cowling is somewhat "pressurised" by the openings in front. How is the intercooler supposed to work, "connected" on the inlet to a naca duct which provides no pressure, and the outlet venting into a high pressure area? I know quite some folks are flying around with an intercooler. Has anyone indeed measured the drop in temperature? Has anyone ever found bugs or other contaminations in the radiator? If so, were they on the bottom or on the top of the radiator? Frans


    Message 6


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:04:29 PM PST US
    From: Bob Fairall <Bob.Fairall@fairalls.co.uk>
    Subject: Europa - Battery cable sizing
    Hi all, Please may I have some advice on battery cable size. My existing Europa uses 2AWG cables. In the interests of weight saving, on my new 'XS' Mono I have started installing 4awg cable for the approx 7'6" run. However, I'm now a little concerned that 4awg will be sufficiently h eavy. Many thanks in anticipation. Bob Fairall Kit 71 - 420 hours and going strong. Kit 494 - getting there!! ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________


    Message 7


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:09:01 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Cooling issues, once again!
    From: "zwakie" <mz@cariama.nl>
    Frans, sorry to hear about your oil-cooling issues - but it lead to an interesting discussion that I follow with great intrest. Next time we're both on the field, could you have a look at my setup? I have some ideas that I would like to run by you... -------- Marcel (Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW - formerly G-BWON) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300248#300248


    Message 8


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:29:45 PM PST US
    From: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gotsky.com>
    Subject: Re: Europa - Battery cable sizing
    Hi Bob, the link below will show you an option that I and many others have used.The 4awg is serving me well in my XS mono 914 Kevin http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires_files/fatwire2flyer.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Fairall To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 1:03 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa - Battery cable sizing Hi all, Please may I have some advice on battery cable size. My existing Europa uses 2AWG cables. In the interests of weight saving, on my new 'XS' Mono I have started installing 4awg cable for the approx 7'6" run. However, I'm now a little concerned that 4awg will be sufficiently heavy. Many thanks in anticipation. Bob Fairall Kit 71 - 420 hours and going strong. Kit 494 - getting there!! ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________


    Message 9


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:47:23 PM PST US
    From: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gotsky.com>
    Subject: Re: Rotax 914 Intercooler
    Hi Franz, Very interesting. Have you tried this sealing off the intercooler up at high altitude? I think the cooler should be doing more "work" the higher you are cruising? I don't have an airbox temp sensor, but I wish I could repeat your test below. I too have the factory setup installed. You pose some interesting questions on the installation. I wonder if air is flowing though the cooler from the naca inlet as designed? Kevin ... > > I have the intercooler for the Rotax 914, per factory setup. > My airbox temperature sensor shows no difference if I seal off the > intercooler! >


    Message 10


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:56:55 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Cooling issues, once again!
    From: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Hi Frans Sounds like you are getting off to a good start. A few points to make, and a few I disagree with **Ask any Rotax distributor in the know, they want a 914 to run well below edge of redline for longevity. Not too cold, but near the lower end is preferable. I think we can agree on this. Lockwood loves the temps on his aircam in the air, but hates them in water making a long taxi (twin 914 or 912S pusher) **Now here is where I don't agree with you. True there is a big fan upfront, and seems foolish to also add little fans to unconstipate the cowl. In a properly designed cowl/cooling system I agree. I don't believe the europa has a properly designed cooling system. I don't think it is too too draggy, but taxi on ground and climb it is for certain less than ideal. Unless you increase drag more than desired all the time, I rather dump some amps to do the deed on ground and in climb than engineer an entirly new system. It also gives a side benefit of being able to cool down cowl after shut down. Europa uses a smaller frontal area radiator than many other Rotax installiations with same total area. This means you need a faster flow. In cruise you have that faster flow, but let me see you make that fast flow on ground and in climb? Lets see how Diamond works at 50 knots with Rotax radiator? I forget, perhaps Karl?? used a larger frontal area radiator with good results i think with intake similar to yours. Anyway I am installing a fan that can in-fact create a lot faster airspeed than the prop in those configurations ever could by themselves. You make a pretty weak case that temps are fine in cowl because you don't see any plastic discolored. My gut feeling is after a hundred hours you probably will. Plastic takes a while before it becomes discolored and brittle in many instances. Measure please so there is no doubt. I bet you find stalled air not making its way out as fast as you would like. The exit area of Europa is less than ideal, especial when you dump intercooler air in there. I disagree that heating cowl air is a good thing. Yes on fast glass, or a P-51 you can accelerate air faster and easier to airspeed on exiting and decrease drag a bit. That said you could close all intakes or exits on cowl and reduce drag a little more, of course this does not benefit cooling which is an issue. If cooling was not an issue, then drag reduction is a good thing to chase. On Europa you will almost for certain heat the da! rn engin e up exhaust. There is not a trivial amount of BTUs given off from the exhaust and turbo, it can easily heat motor where through water, oil, air and gas (enough carbon monoxide per Rotax reccomondations) cooling, will not enough to lower the temps to liking. There is enough intake air charging through Europa cowl, yours included where if you are heating it, it means air is getting constipated. I think it is very safe to say the discharge of a typical stock XS trigear exit air or your plane is nowhere near as good a design as a P-51 or Gilles exit design. Measuring temps and pressures is best way to make informed decisions. Be more concerned on ground and in climb than in cruise. With top cowl off there is not much in way of constipation. The two gill fans are easy to try, it semi replicates having the top cowl off. The motors are probably under 10 bucks for the two, and props and hubs about the same. If you find they lower temps and pressures leave them in place. If they do nothing then take them off. Same goes with rich switch. If you can climb between 85 and 100% power and lower temps, then that is a good thing. Colors of spark plugs running mogas is not too reliable of an indicator. running 100LL is better, but you would need to shut down after a run at 100% and 115% to measure to get most reliable reading. Carbon monoxide the most accurate and reliable method. True burning a tad more fuel with rich switch, but way way easier on motor until you can verify with carbon monoxide detector. Also a good thing to fool with, if you see at 100% power when you richen the EGTs first go up before they go down, or even stay still for a bit, you are either lean of peak or at peak. A leak where you have a slight high EGT can be adressed too. Alcohol in gas will lean mixture compared to fuel with no alcohol. Type 64 carb on 914 does not compensate mixture via a 02 or carbon monoxide sender, they are fixed. Run alcohol, will run leaner. On a car run more alcohol, will compensate if it uses a o2 sender system. Anyway unconstipating air will most likely benefit your cooling. Now if you are thinking you can use big fan upfront to cool in worst cases you will see and have motor running cool enough, I am all ears. BTW against popular belief according to factory before shake up, gills do in fact evacuate air from cowl in climb. Flying with doors prove that. also allow better cool down upon shutting motor off. In your case I think first is unclog the exit of the radiator by moving the oil radiator. As far as the water cooling goes, make something pretty temporary, this way instead of overheating that is pretty terrible on motor, you can cool with the water till you figure out. Same goes with rich switch, same goes for gill fans. On a 85F day at sea level, I want to be able to take off at 115% power and climb at best angle of climb for 30 seconds and then best rate of climb in fine Airmaster pitch for another 3.5 minutes, then 100% power till I get to 18K near gross and have temperatures happy. I also want to be able to taxi in 85F for longer than I care for and not be able to take off, but have temps at a reasonably low level. Thats is my goal. Have ability to cool worst case, then oil thermostat to keep oil temps warm automatic, and have reversible radiator intake duct to act as a cowl flap, constipate amount of air flowing through. Good luck, please keep us up to date. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300259#300259


    Message 11


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:13:32 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rotax 914 Intercooler
    From: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Hi Frans. I did speak to John Hurst and he said he measured airbox temp and especial at altitude it dropped with intercooler. He mentioned it dosen't work so well you really need to worry about carb ice, but would allow one to fly to 18K without intervention of TCU. I am only repeating what he said, I have yet to measure. For what it's worth, my 1983 Volvo GLT-50 (245) turbo station wagon, with 2.3 liter 4 cylinder, pretty much same as 914 Garette air cooled turbo as 914, and ~ 185hp said intercooler lowered air temperature going into manifold from 145F above ambient to only 45F above ambient. I think boosts were similar to 914?? Size of radiator was about size of coolant radiator. Intercooler installed as per factory instructions from John do in fact lead to further constipation of cowl air compared to not having it installed. A mono with gear down and factory located stainless firewall has far worst exit air ability than a Tri with firewall moved way back. None the less still not stellar on the ground and in climb. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300260#300260


    Message 12


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:30:52 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Europa - Battery cable sizing
    From: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Just a quick note on CCA, I too have an aft mounted battery on 914 mono and am using #4 CCA, the dameter of #4 CCA is closer to #2 Tefzel standard copper wire than #4 Tefzel wire but the resistance is almost identical to #4 tefzel. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300261#300261


    Message 13


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:42:47 PM PST US
    From: Bob Fairall <Bob.Fairall@fairalls.co.uk>
    Subject: Europa - Battery cable sizing
    Hi Kevin, Thanks for that ........... seems a great solution!! Kind regards Bob From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Klinefelter Sent: 06 June 2010 22:28 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa - Battery cable sizing Hi Bob, the link below will show you an option that I and many others have used.T he 4awg is serving me well in my XS mono 914 Kevin http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires_files/fatwire2flyer<http://www.pe riheliondesign.com/fatwires_files/fatwire2flyer.pdf>.pdf<http://www.perihe liondesign.com/fatwires_files/fatwire2flyer.pdf> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Fairall<mailto:Bob.Fairall@fairalls.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 1:03 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa - Battery cable sizing Hi all, Please may I have some advice on battery cable size. My existing Europa uses 2AWG cables. In the interests of weight saving, on my new 'XS' Mono I have started installing 4awg cable for the approx 7'6" run. However, I'm now a little concerned that 4awg will be sufficiently h eavy. Many thanks in anticipation. Bob Fairall Kit 71 - 420 hours and going strong. Kit 494 - getting there!! ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________


    Message 14


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:42:52 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Combustion air inlets
    On Jun 6, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > While solving my cooling problems, I learned a few things: > 1) Naca ducts provide no ram air, but merely "allow air to get in". To all you 912S powered flyers, Page 8-1 of the Europa "912 Rotax installation manual" states: > The engine inlet air is fed through a NACA duct situated in the top > cowling. It passes into a plenum > chamber which feeds the air directly to the carburettors. This > ensures that the coolest air available is > used at all times, thus ensuring no reduction of engine performance. If Frans is correct, it would appear to follow that the 912S plenum does not offer inlet air to the carbs under ram air pressure. And since the 914 engine inlet is a NACA vent also, the same would apply. I'm surprised...having thought that engine performance benefits when the carb gulps air which is above ambient pressure. Any wisdom to pass on to a heretic? Fred A194 (w/ Sube)


    Message 15


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 11:22:00 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Combustion air inlets
    On 06/07/2010 01:41 AM, Fred Klein wrote: > If Frans is correct, it would appear to follow that the 912S plenum does > not offer inlet air to the carbs under ram air pressure. There is quite some information available on the internet about naca-ducts, where they were designed for, and what they can and can't do. Naca ducts were designed for applications where you want to "let air in" without drag penalty. They harvest air from the boundary layer, the non-moving layer of air attached to the airplane. If you need RAM air, you need something to protrude through the boundary layer, a sort of scoop, or a frontal inlet. See: http://www.flyingmag.com/scoop-naca-scoop " ... The conclusions of the Ames group's 1945 report were upbeat, but they included a caution that designers have been ignoring ever since. "The submerged inlet is essentially a high inlet-velocity-ratio type in contrast to wing-leading-edge and fuselage-nose inlets," they wrote. This characteristic limited its most efficient use to systems "that require only a small amount of diffusion, such as the internal ducting for jet motors of the axial-flow type." Submerged inlets were unsuitable for "oil coolers, radiators, or carburetors of ... reciprocating engines," the report continued ... " Of course, if there is anyone willing to measure the pressure inside a naca duct against the static port (ASI ?) we know for sure. But as far as I can see, the 912S naca inlet doesn't provide any ram effect to the inlet air. Frans


    Message 16


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 11:48:49 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Combustion air inlets
    On Jun 6, 2010, at 11:15 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > > > On 06/07/2010 01:41 AM, Fred Klein wrote: > >> If Frans is correct, it would appear to follow that the 912S plenum >> does >> not offer inlet air to the carbs under ram air pressure. > > There is quite some information available on the internet about > naca-ducts, where they were designed for, and what they can and > can't do. Frans...that's fascinating...I must find a way to remove that conditional "if" above! Thank you...I always assumed that designers were always looking for a little ram-air boost...perhaps the low-drag benefit of the NACA inlet rules over other considerations, Fred




    Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   europa-list@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
  • Web Forum Interface To Lists
  •   http://forums.matronics.com
  • Matronics List Wiki
  •   http://wiki.matronics.com
  • 7-Day List Browse
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list
  • Browse Europa-List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list
  • Browse Other Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Live Online Chat!
  •   http://www.matronics.com/chat
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contribution

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --