Europa-List Digest Archive

Tue 06/08/10


Total Messages Posted: 28



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:57 AM - Re: Combustion air inlets (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     2. 03:42 AM - Re: Looking for Europa experienced builder/pilot to check out Europa Monowheel (near Savannah GA - USA) (Jim Brown)
     3. 05:01 AM - Tunnel Bulkhead Substrate (Tony Renshaw)
     4. 05:02 AM - Re: Combustion air inlets (Frans Veldman)
     5. 05:10 AM - Re: Combustion air inlets (Frans Veldman)
     6. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
     7. 05:38 AM - Re: Combustion air inlets (Peter Zutrauen)
     8. 08:00 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (rparigoris)
     9. 08:43 AM - Re: Tunnel Bulkhead Substrate (Fred Klein)
    10. 09:07 AM - Re: Underseat Fuel System (Robert C Harrison)
    11. 09:14 AM - 912S - Flying in rain (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
    12. 09:50 AM - Re: 912S - Flying in rain (Kevin Challis)
    13. 09:54 AM - Re: 912S - Flying in rain (Karl Heindl)
    14. 10:38 AM - SV: 912S - Flying in rain (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
    15. 11:34 AM - Re: Tunnel Bulkhead Substrate (G-IANI)
    16. 11:40 AM - Re: Tunnel Bulkhead Substrate (Gary Leinberger)
    17. 11:53 AM - Re: Underseat Fuel System (duanefamly@aol.com)
    18. 12:13 PM - Cooling (Jerry Rehn)
    19. 12:55 PM - Re: Underseat Fuel System (Raimo Toivio)
    20. 02:46 PM - Re: Underseat Fuel System (Frans Veldman)
    21. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
    22. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Fred Klein)
    23. 03:42 PM - Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim 	Stoveken) (Luc Michaud)
    24. 04:07 PM - Re: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim 	Stoveken) (Fred Klein)
    25. 07:20 PM - Fuel Head (Tony Renshaw)
    26. 07:49 PM - COOLING & NACA DUCTS (Fergus Kyle)
    27. 07:58 PM - Battery cable sizing (Fergus Kyle)
    28. 10:46 PM - Propeller - Flying in rain (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:57:35 AM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Combustion air inlets
    Yes, but note that they never go into an elbow, always straight in to the c arb=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: craig b astin <craigb@onthenet.com.au>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tues day, 8 June, 2010 1:29:36=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Combustion air inlets =0A=0A=EF=BB =0AThe =0Aother thing worth consideration, is the longer ( within reason) and smoother =0Athe transition from plenum to carb throat th e better=0Athe =0Aperfomance, this allows the air to continue accelerating with minimal =0Aturbulence, giving the best possible atomisation of the fue l=0Ainto =0Athe airflow. Hence the reason for the velocity stacks (trumpets ) seen on a lot =0Aof natually aspirated race engine.


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:42:34 AM PST US
    From: Jim Brown <acrojim7534@YAHOO.COM>
    Subject: Re: Looking for Europa experienced builder/pilot to check
    out Europa Monowheel (near Savannah GA - USA) I own a monowheel, and I live in central Florida, I may be able to help you ...- Please contact me on my cell 352-250-0712=0A=0AJim Brown=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0AFrom: Luc Michaud <rambug@gmail.com> =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, June 7, 2010 11:56:34 PM=0ASu bject: Europa-List: Looking for Europa experienced builder/pilot to check o ut Europa Monowheel (near Savannah GA - USA)=0A=0AHello I'm looking for an experienced Europa builder/pilot near Savannah GA, to check out an airworth y (300 hrs TT) Europa Monowheel that I wish to purchase.=0A=0APls contact m ===============0A=0A=0A


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:01:41 AM PST US
    From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
    Subject: Tunnel Bulkhead Substrate
    Gidday, I am after advice on stiffening bulkheads in my tunnel, now that I have opened it up at the top to gain access to finger brake shelf etc. Like all of us, I have blue foam coming out of my ears, but I've also used ply as a substrate here and there, and I know about light weight composite substrates like Divinycell. So, does anyone speak positively about using a specialised foam substrate instead of blue foam with BID either side, or should I just use ply, or is even good old blue foam good enough??? I could always add an extra layer of BID for the weaker the substrate. I need two of these bulkheads, one going across the tunnel from floor to roof of tunnel at the level of the vertical face of the thigh support, and a forward bulkhead just aft of the tunnel firewall. All help gratefully accepted. Rg Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:02:37 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Combustion air inlets
    On 06/08/2010 02:29 AM, craig bastin wrote: > The other thing worth consideration, is the longer (within reason) and > smoother the transition from plenum to carb throat the better > the perfomance, this allows the air to continue accelerating with > minimal turbulence, giving the best possible atomisation of the fuel > into the airflow. Hence the reason for the velocity stacks (trumpets) > seen on a lot of natually aspirated race engine. Keep in mind that the inlet pulses on a Rotax are not balanced. Each carb has to feed two successive cylinders, and then pauses for two successive cylinders. This causes turbulence, uneven mixture over the two successive inlet cycles, and a lot of other problems. We can't do much about this (except for fitting a much larger balance tube) so efforts to smooth the air going into the carbs is probably pretty much wasted. Frans


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:10:15 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Combustion air inlets
    On 06/07/2010 08:56 PM, Gary Leinberger wrote: > My understanding is that the Bing carbs on the 912S are not designed > for ram air - They can handle ram air fine. Just make sure that also the float chamber vent sees the same pressure. (This means that the whole carb will see the elevated pressure, the higher pressure due to ram air is then no different than the higher pressure due to flying at a lower altitude. The Bing carbs are especially designed to deal with a lot of different inlet pressures.) > The 914 is boosted, but requires > numerous other gadgets to allow the Bing carbs to function properly > with the excessive pressure. Not true. The carbs are the same. All the "gadgets" you see on a 914 are for different reasons, not to make the carbs work correctly. And of course, the float chamber vents are connected to the airbox, so they see the higher pressure as well. If I had a 912, I would try to feed the engine with as much ram air as possible. Frans


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:24:52 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Cooling issues, once again!
    On 06/06/2010 11:56 PM, rparigoris wrote: > **Ask any Rotax distributor in the know, they want a 914 to run well > below edge of redline for longevity. Not too cold, but near the lower > end is preferable. I think we can agree on this. I don't necessarily agree with this. There is a practical reason to limit the temperatures of the cylinder heads: above a certain temperature the aluminium softens. But you can't reverse this reasoning: there is no additional benefit to get further away from this redline than necessary. In fact, a lower temperature worsens the efficiency of the engine, causes worse fuel atomization, etc. The same with the oil temperature. The red line is there because above a certain temperature the oil starts breaking apart. But you shouldn't stay further away from this red line as neccessary. I think we all know that colder oil is not working well, that is why we have a lower limit on the oil temperature after all. I wouldn't see why running well below the edge would increase the longevity. The heads melt or they do not. > **Now here is where I don't agree with you. You have some points here. It is just that I think that having to rely on electrical fans is not elegant, and electrical fans can fail. I prefer to make the best use of the air flow we already have by the nature of flying, but there is no real wrong or true here. > I disagree > that heating cowl air is a good thing. I didn't say that. I said: "heating up the air before it leaves the airplane is a good thing". With other words: you should try to heat the air up on its way to the exit... but make very sure that it exits indeed and doesn't linger around in the cowling. With a proper airflow from top to bottom, the turbo and muffler are the very last things the air will encounter. It could be beneficial to pick up heat from it as much as possible, to increase the air volume and have something to offer to the void behind the cowling or cowl flap. The more volume of air you exit, the less drag you have... until at some point you even get propulsion from the hot air exiting the cowling (but true, we aren't likely to achieve this stage with an Europa). BTW, thanks for the information you sent!! Frans


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:38:14 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Combustion air inlets
    From: Peter Zutrauen <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    re: ram-air to the carbs: I believe there were previous threads discussing this, and the analysis showed that the ram-air effect is negligible at our speeds - but the drag penalties could be more significant. fwiw, ymmv, etc. Cheers, Pete A239 On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>wrote: > > On 06/07/2010 08:56 PM, Gary Leinberger wrote: > > > My understanding is that the Bing carbs on the 912S are not designed > > for ram air - > > They can handle ram air fine. Just make sure that also the float chamber > vent sees the same pressure. (This means that the whole carb will see > the elevated pressure, the higher pressure due to ram air is then no > different than the higher pressure due to flying at a lower altitude. > The Bing carbs are especially designed to deal with a lot of different > inlet pressures.) > > > The 914 is boosted, but requires > > numerous other gadgets to allow the Bing carbs to function properly > > with the excessive pressure. > > Not true. The carbs are the same. All the "gadgets" you see on a 914 are > for different reasons, not to make the carbs work correctly. And of > course, the float chamber vents are connected to the airbox, so they see > the higher pressure as well. > > If I had a 912, I would try to feed the engine with as much ram air as > possible. > > Frans > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:00:50 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Cooling issues, once again!
    From: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Hi Frans I hear where you are coming from, and somewhat agree. In a world where the Mfg. did their homework and published the proper info, and you had gages that spoke the truth running near redline is not too too bad a thing. In real world Rotax found that oils that they blessed, and temps they published can cause problems. Not only did they change some coolant temps but wanted you to monitor more info if you use 50/50 mix. Now as far as instruments, an error on the low side can occur easily. In europa and many cowls, inside temps can increase to point where regulator, ignition modules, plug wires and other wiring can and do take an extra beating the hotter they get. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300526#300526


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:43:16 AM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Tunnel Bulkhead Substrate
    On Jun 8, 2010, at 4:59 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > I am after advice on stiffening bulkheads in my tunnel, now that I > have opened it up at the top to gain access to finger brake shelf > etc. Like all of us, I have blue foam coming out of my ears, but > I've also used ply as a substrate here and there, and I know about > light weight composite substrates like Divinycell. So, does anyone > speak positively about using a specialised foam substrate instead of > blue foam with BID either side, or should I just use ply, or is even > good old blue foam good enough??? Tony, Personally, I would never use blue foam where thin sheets are called for, even if I could make a simple jig and sand it down to say 1/8" or 1/4". For what you describe, I would find some LastaFoam...however, since the amount you're talkin bout is so small, I would think 1/8" birch acft plywood would serve. Fred


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:07:09 AM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Underseat Fuel System
    Hi! Tony I guess you are a Mono driver? If a trike driver though then my 914 set up is in modular form passing through the belly wheel well where the mono wheel would be parked! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw Sent: 08 June 2010 02:29 Subject: Europa-List: Underseat Fuel System My existing fuel system setup has the fuel exiting the tank outlets via GS fittings, spanwise for 6-8", then 90 degree bend through back of seat and into underseat area. My original building mentor, Mal McLure had his entire 914 system underneath the passenger seat, and my setup was an aberration of that, with a parallel fuel system originally setup for a 912S, but now I have the 914. So, my fuel from each respective side of the tank currently goes to underneath the seat pans. My question is, does anyone have theirs in the same place, or is everyone putting it aft of the seatback?? If so, I suppose I will reroute it via its current location, out the inboard side of the underseat area into the tunnel, then aft from there. I struggle to think going aft, to then come forward again is the best way to go, but I am open to suggestions. I suppose it is better to smell fumes and with confidence know they are behind you, than under you!! Also, you could end up sitting in a very uncom! fortable puddle, and I bet if this occurred you would be that scared you would be contributing to it. By putting it aft, and I do have a suspended shelf setup between the vertical ribs that support the extended baggage bay, I could put all the fuel setup into a plastic container such that all plumbing, or most of the joins etc are encapsulated. Any ideas welcomed. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie.


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:14:00 AM PST US
    From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
    Subject: 912S - Flying in rain
    The current thread on combustion air, ram pressure, where to place the air intake, etc. brings up the issue of flying in rain with the Europa equipped with the 912S, having the air intake arranged as a NACA duct on top of the cowling and the plenum box just below the opening. There are two 3.3 mm (1/8") drain holes at the bottom of this plenum box, which will be able to drain away some water intake (you must fly with the ball in dead center for both to be effective). A certain air pressure build-up in the plenum makes the drainage more effective. One theory I have heard goes as follows: If the engine were stopped and surrounding air passed over the cowling at a speed of say 120 knots, very little rain would enter the air box. The air would be backed up in the NACA duct and "new" air and rain drops would for the most part pass over it. Given this starting scenario (the aircraft moving at a speed of 120 knots): If you now have a running engine it will still not suck in so much combustion air that the velocity through the NACA duct is anywhere close to 120 knots + propeller slip stream velocity. Air would therefore still be backed up in front of the plenum intake, with a certain amount of the air and rain drops flowing over the inlet. Theory and reality are two different matters also in this case. What has been experienced when it comes to flying this configuration in rain (drizzle, light, heavy) - is it definitely to be avoided or is it more a matter of vertical and horizontal visibility? Regards, Svein LN-SKJ


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:50:01 AM PST US
    From: "Kevin Challis" <kevinmarie@blueyonder.co.uk>
    Subject: 912S - Flying in rain
    Dear All, I have a tri gear Europa Classic with a XS firewall forward setup and a 912ULS with a NACA on top of the cowling for the carbs. I have flown through very heavy rain, light rain etc (I am based in the UK) with no problems. My rads oil & water are one behind the other with quite a gap at the bottom which lets air bypass the rads. The temps are fine and I have been as far south as Morocco with it in the summer and very hot conditions. I don't often say anything on this forum as 1. I don't understand the technical stuff. 2. I am too busy flying it. Kevin From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen Sent: 08 June 2010 17:13 Subject: Europa-List: 912S - Flying in rain The current thread on combustion air, ram pressure, where to place the air intake, etc. brings up the issue of flying in rain with the Europa equipped with the 912S, having the air intake arranged as a NACA duct on top of the cowling and the plenum box just below the opening. There are two 3.3 mm (1/8") drain holes at the bottom of this plenum box, which will be able to drain away some water intake (you must fly with the ball in dead center for both to be effective). A certain air pressure build-up in the plenum makes the drainage more effective. One theory I have heard goes as follows: If the engine were stopped and surrounding air passed over the cowling at a speed of say 120 knots, very little rain would enter the air box. The air would be backed up in the NACA duct and "new" air and rain drops would for the most part pass over it. Given this starting scenario (the aircraft moving at a speed of 120 knots): If you now have a running engine it will still not suck in so much combustion air that the velocity through the NACA duct is anywhere close to 120 knots + propeller slip stream velocity. Air would therefore still be backed up in front of the plenum intake, with a certain amount of the air and rain drops flowing over the inlet. Theory and reality are two different matters also in this case. What has been experienced when it comes to flying this configuration in rain (drizzle, light, heavy) - is it definitely to be avoided or is it more a matter of vertical and horizontal visibility? Regards, Svein LN-SKJ


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:54:20 AM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: 912S - Flying in rain
    I have flown inthe rain with the standard setup=2C while rturning from Oshk osh. I didn't notice any problems. But normally I try to avoid it=2C becaus e it isn't good for the propeller. Karl From: sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no Subject: Europa-List: 912S - Flying in rain The current thread on combustion air=2C ram pressure=2C where to place the air intake=2C etc. brings up the issue of flying in rain with the Europa eq uipped with the 912S=2C having the air intake arranged as a NACA duct on to p of the cowling and the plenum box just below the opening. There are two 3.3 mm (1/8=94) drain holes at the bottom of this plenum box=2C which will be able to drain away some water intake (you must fly with the ball in dead center for both to be effective). A certain air pressure build-up in the plenum makes the drainage more effective. One theory I have heard goes as follows: If the engine were stopped and su rrounding air passed over the cowling at a speed of say 120 knots=2C very l ittle rain would enter the air box. The air would be backed up in the NACA duct and =93new=94 air and rain drops would for the most part pass over it . Given this starting scenario (the aircraft moving at a speed of 120 knot s): If you now have a running engine it will still not suck in so much com bustion air that the velocity through the NACA duct is anywhere close to 12 0 knots + propeller slip stream velocity. Air would therefore still be bac ked up in front of the plenum intake=2C with a certain amount of the air an d rain drops flowing over the inlet. Theory and reality are two different matters also in this case. What has b een experienced when it comes to flying this configuration in rain (drizzle =2C light=2C heavy) ' is it definitely to be avoided or is it more a matt er of vertical and horizontal visibility? Regards=2C Svein LN-SKJ


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:38:48 AM PST US
    From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
    Subject: 912S - Flying in rain
    Thanks, Kevin and Karl - very reassuring. Regards, Svein Do not archive


    Message 15


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    Time: 11:34:15 AM PST US
    From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
    Subject: Tunnel Bulkhead Substrate
    Tony For the bulkheads I built when doing the major modifications to my tunnel I used 3mm ply with two plies of BID on both sides. This gives a nice strong structure and the weight penalty is very small Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com


    Message 16


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    Time: 11:40:23 AM PST US
    From: Gary Leinberger <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
    Subject: Tunnel Bulkhead Substrate
    I was originally going with the (heavier) Subaru engine and was worried abo ut sufficient strength with a heavier engine. So I used thin plywood glasse d and bolted on both sides to make the firewall (angled at about 30 degrees ) and tied this to a piece of plywood that runs back to the rear of the coc kpit module. I glued this to the side, and and glassed it to the firewall s o it makes a tee with the firewall. Then I used thin angle aluminum to tie this to thin plywood 9also glassed and reinforced with thin aluminum sheet on the cockpit sides of the center tunnel. The bolts for the frame that hol ds the bungies (I actually used springs) goes through the plywood, the thin aluminum and the cockpit module. I weighed all this before I put it in and it probably added 8 - 10 pounds o r so. I haven't weighed the plane yet. I rationalize this added weight in p art by noting that the center board also serves as a mount for everything in the center console which is necessary as I have the finger brakes, auto pilot, all the various brake hoses, gas hoses, throttle, etc. All those mou nts would weigh something. Don't know if this was worth the effort but it sure is strong. I did learn that putting the foam between glass (or thin plywood and glass) increases t he strength by several magnitudes - but you need to figure in the force vec tors to get the proper strength. The cockpit picture shows the plywood on the outside that is bolted to the bungie and front wheel frame and also bolted and fiberglassed to the tee sh aped piece inside the tunnel that runs back to the rear of the tunnel. On t he cockpit picture you can see Bud Yerly in the background, probably silent ly (or not so silently) cursing builders who add their little "improvements " that cause interference problems later on - Gary Leinberger A237 Lancaster, Pa. ________________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [owner-europa-list-server@matr onics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein [fklein@orcasonline.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tunnel Bulkhead Substrate On Jun 8, 2010, at 4:59 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > I am after advice on stiffening bulkheads in my tunnel, now that I > have opened it up at the top to gain access to finger brake shelf > etc. Like all of us, I have blue foam coming out of my ears, but > I've also used ply as a substrate here and there, and I know about > light weight composite substrates like Divinycell. So, does anyone > speak positively about using a specialised foam substrate instead of > blue foam with BID either side, or should I just use ply, or is even > good old blue foam good enough??? Tony, Personally, I would never use blue foam where thin sheets are called for, even if I could make a simple jig and sand it down to say 1/8" or 1/4". For what you describe, I would find some LastaFoam...however, since the amount you're talkin bout is so small, I would think 1/8" birch acft plywood would serve. Fred


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:53:21 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Underseat Fuel System
    From: duanefamly@aol.com
    you could end up sitting in a very uncomfortable puddle I thought of this as a very unconfortable idea also.....so I drilled a sma ll "weep" hole in the corner of each pan and epoxied in a small brass tube to the underside of the aircraft. I would prefer to lose this fuel than land with it. Mike Duane Redding, California XS Conventional Gear -----Original Message----- From: Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Tue, Jun 8, 2010 9:06 am Subject: RE: Europa-List: Underseat Fuel System o.uk> Hi! Tony I guess you are a Mono driver? f a trike driver though then my 914 set up is in modular form passing hrough the belly wheel well where the mono wheel would be parked! egards ob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- rom: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw ent: 08 June 2010 02:29 o: europa-list@matronics.com ubject: Europa-List: Underseat Fuel System My existing fuel system setup has the fuel exiting the tank outlets via GS ittings, spanwise for 6-8", then 90 degree bend through back of seat and nto underseat area. My original building mentor, Mal McLure had his entire 14 system underneath the passenger seat, and my setup was an aberration of hat, with a parallel fuel system originally setup for a 912S, but now I ave the 914. So, my fuel from each respective side of the tank currently oes to underneath the seat pans. My question is, does anyone have theirs in he same place, or is everyone putting it aft of the seatback?? If so, I uppose I will reroute it via its current location, out the inboard side of he underseat area into the tunnel, then aft from there. I struggle to thin k oing aft, to then come forward again is the best way to go, but I am open o suggestions. I suppose it is better to smell fumes and with confidence now they are behind you, than under you!! Also, you could end up sitting in very uncom! fortable puddle, and I bet if this occurred you would be that scared you ould be contributing to it. By putting it aft, and I do have a suspended helf setup between the vertical ribs that support the extended baggage bay , could put all the fuel setup into a plastic container such that all lumbing, or most of the joins etc are encapsulated. Any ideas welcomed. eg ony Renshaw ydney Aussie. ======================== =========== -= - The Europa-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== ===========


    Message 18


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    Time: 12:13:47 PM PST US
    From: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com>
    Subject: Cooling
    This is a picture of a 914 during a test run by Rotax. I got this at a maintenance class I took in Canada. Seems they wanted to see just how long and hot they could run it. Can't recall time but I think it was 24 hours or more and the engine came out remarkably well. Nice to know you can run them a little hot and they will survive, can't say what the rest of the stuff under a cowling might look like! Jerry


    Message 19


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    Time: 12:55:38 PM PST US
    From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
    Subject: Re: Underseat Fuel System
    I have drainage holes there also but blocked them by glued pieces of blue foam. If some free fuel occurs, it will immediately melt it=B4s way out. Terveisin, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 +150 hrs 37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4 FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio@fly.to www.rwm.fi From: duanefamly@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 9:51 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Underseat Fuel System you could end up sitting in a very uncomfortable puddleI thought of this as a very unconfortable idea also.....so I drilled a small "weep" hole in the corner of each pan and epoxied in a small brass tube to the underside of the aircraft. I would prefer to lose this fuel than land with it. Mike Duane Redding, California XS Conventional Gear -----Original Message----- From: Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Tue, Jun 8, 2010 9:06 am Subject: RE: Europa-List: Underseat Fuel System <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Tony I guess you are a Mono driver? If a trike driver though then my 914 set up is in modular form passing through the belly wheel well where the mono wheel would be parked! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw Sent: 08 June 2010 02:29 Subject: Europa-List: Underseat Fuel System <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com> My existing fuel system setup has the fuel exiting the tank outlets via GS fittings, spanwise for 6-8", then 90 degree bend through back of seat and into underseat area. My original building mentor, Mal McLure had his entire 914 system underneath the passenger seat, and my setup was an aberration of that, with a parallel fuel system originally setup for a 912S, but now I have the 914. So, my fuel from each respective side of the tank currently goes to underneath the seat pans. My question is, does anyone have theirs in the same place, or is everyone putting it aft of the seatback?? If so, I suppose I will reroute it via its current location, out the inboard side of the underseat area into the tunnel, then aft from there. I struggle to think going aft, to then come forward again is the best way to go, but I am open to suggestions. I suppose it is better to smell fumes and with confidence know they are behind you, than under you!! Also, you could end up sitting in a very uncom! fortable puddle, and I bet if this occurred you would be that scared you would be contributing to it. By putting it aft, and I do have a suspended shelf setup between the vertical ribs that support the extended baggage bay, I could put all the fuel setup into a plastic container such that all plumbing, or most of the joins etc are encapsulated. Any ideas welcomed. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =


    Message 20


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    Time: 02:46:00 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Underseat Fuel System
    On 06/08/2010 09:53 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > I have drainage holes there also but blocked them by glued pieces of > blue foam. > If some free fuel occurs, it will immediately melt its way out. Smart idea! I put all fuel related stuff (pumps, filters, valves, flow sensors) in a sealed box, with a hatch to the underside of the plane. From there I can access the gascolator, and if there develops a leak in the dozen or so T's and other connections, it will leak out via the hatch. I won't even have a fuel smell inside the cockpit. But still, I like your idea to have a few "melt holes" at strategic places. It seems the tank can leak too! So, now I have found a use for my scrap blue foam. Frans


    Message 21


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    Time: 03:22:27 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Cooling issues, once again!
    Hi Guys, It looks like I might have solved my cooling problems! What I did: I took the oil cooler completely out of the duct. The cooling duct now only supplies air to the water radiator. The oil cooler is now mounted on the starboard footwell. It is fed with cold air via an internal simple wedge shaped diffuser, connected to a 2 inch scat-tube that runs to the front of the airplane, to a 2 inch hole. (2 inch is pretty minimalistic for this huge oil cooler but a 2 inch scat tube is what I found in my airplane surplus box.) The warm air exiting the oil cooler is simply dumped inside the cowling (and can still absorb some more heat there). I closed off the front round 3" air inlets completely to reduce pressure inside the cowl. This to further promote air flow through the more usefull air inlets. (For cylinder cooling I have two small naca inlets in the top cowling aimed at the cylinders). I built an exhaust augmenter to suck the warm air out of the cowling. So, this evening we ground tested the system. First thing we noticed was that it took an unusual long time to warm up the oil. Also the water temp was lagging quite a bit. After the engine was warmed up sufficiently I revved the engine up to 4200 rpm. In previous tests I used this setting to measure the time until something reached red line (usually water and oil touched the red line at about the same moment). Well, this time I couldn't reach any red line with this power setting! Temperatures just stabilized in the middle of the green zone. Unbelievable. So, after some time I decided to just give it all. Full power. It took two minutes before finally the oil reached the caution zone. The water was still in the green zone at that time. I let the RPM drop, and the oil temperature came down again. So, at least the ground cooling problems seem to be over. (Ok, I should test again with really hot weather, but it looks like that that is not going to be a problem.) This is with a minimal amount of air stolen from the front of the airplane: Two naca ducts for cylinder cooling, one 2 inch hole for the oil cooler, and the trimmed down cooling duct opening for the water cooler. Far less than the Europa normally has, so it should be a relatively very low drag setup. Whose idea was it to have the two radiators behind each other? I think this was a grave design error. If weather cooperates, we can tomorrow do some flight testing. I will let you know. Frans


    Message 22


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    Time: 03:38:10 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Cooling issues, once again!
    On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:16 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > I built an exhaust augmenter to suck the warm air out of the cowling. Frans, A couple of photos, interior and exterior, of your augmenter would be much appreciated. Looks like you've solved your cooling problem!!...congratulations, Fred


    Message 23


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    Time: 03:42:37 PM PST US
    From: Luc Michaud <rambug@gmail.com>
    Subject: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built
    by Jim Stoveken) Hello everyone, My name is Luc Michaud, and I have just joined the Europa-List yesterday. I'm in the Montr=E9al region, and work in the IT group of Bombardier Aerosp ace (mostly on CAD/CAM/CAE/PLM/ERP projects). I have been involved in the aviation world early on, getting both glider an d private pilot licenses even before my driver's license - thanks to the Roya l Canadian Air Cadets. Glider on Schweizer SGS 2-33's in St-Honore, private on C152 in Bromont, both in Quebec, Canada. The idea of building my own airplane was already quite present in my mind, and I was fantatizing about eventually getting my own plane - at the time, the Quickie-2. But, I was young, broke, and had to wait... Wait I did... Then in the mid 90's, as my career was taking a lot of room, I feel in love... ...with the Europa ! Zoom Campbell and all them other guys were so drooling over it, and I couldn't wait to join them, soon... Soon was not soon enough, if you ask me, but here I am ! A few weeks ago, I looked around for which kit would now be best. Europa and Dynaero were pretty much the 2 contenders... Then, about 3 weeks ago, my wife convinced me that I was a better idea to fly my own airplane than spend years building it, whilst barely flying, in others' airplanes. So off I went looking... I found an Europa monowheel, classic, for sale, on barnstormers... Airworthy, 300 hours TT, Rotax 912, Prince prop, bunch of mods done. Already sent a deposit to the current owner. Now, I'm trying to get any info that you guys may have on that airplane. It's N202Y, built by James N Stoveken, out of Ocean Isle Beach, North Carolina, and first flew in the Spring of 1999. I got to talk with Jim, a really great guy; he flew about 280 hours of bliss on his N202Y, before selling it about 2 years ago due to not being that young a coot anymore, an d already having a great Ercoupe (Alon A2). His prior builds included a Quickie and a Boredom Fighter, so I felt that h e must have had the right stuff to build a sweet Europa. So, now I'm trying to buy N202Y from Edward Arthur Goodman. I gathered tha t the airplane is in Townsend, GA. Mr. Goodman has had someone putting in a bunch of mods (in Florida ?), the list of which I am yet to get. I know he got the tailwheel moved to the back, but am not certain if he got the wing mod done. I presume he did, as he got N202Y's annual signed off in 2010/03 (your thoughts ?). *... So now, I'm trying to get *ANY* info on N202Y... If you've seen it, worked on it, flew it, let me know. Also, if you live close to Savannah GA and would like to help, pls contact me so we can discuss, as I need Europa knowledge, as well as paperwork knowledge, as well as export from USA to Canada knowledge, as well as... : ( Finally, if you live anywhere near Montreal (Canada) and fly Europa monowheel airplanes, pls contact me. If you are a Canada-certified flight instructor, well then I'm dreaming ! ... * Best regards to this great community, which I hope I will be able to join shortly, Luc Michaud


    Message 24


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    Time: 04:07:21 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y
    (built by Jim Stoveken) On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:38 PM, Luc Michaud wrote: > Hello everyone, > > My name is Luc Michaud, and I have just joined the Europa-List > yesterday. Luc, Excellent introduction !! I'm sure you'll make many friendships in the Europa community. Glad to learn you're not a Metropole (not that I have anything against the French)...hope you'll join us in September for the Rough River, KY europa fly in. Good luck w/ your quest, Fred


    Message 25


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    Time: 07:20:37 PM PST US
    From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
    Subject: Fuel Head
    Gidday, Is there any advantage in elevating my fuel system downstream of my fuel pumps located low in the system quickly up to selectors and filters within the tunnel, to minimise the fuel "quantity", and "mass" when it comes to minimising the effects of head. I recall reading the fuel pumps have an 18" head, which is OK for us, but it would actually suit me to elevate it quickly in the back of the tunnel to the underside of a shelf I have cross tunnel, quite close to the top at the mid tunnel position. I suppose the flip side is that if you had a very shallow angle, you could ultimately get a volume of fluid a pump couldn't push. Does anyone see a problem with this idea.?? Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Ausssie


    Message 26


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    Time: 07:49:54 PM PST US
    From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject: COOLING & NACA DUCTS
    FRANS et al - I appreciate the thought that a NACA duct "lets air in" rather than blows it in, but am reminded of a variant of the NA F-86 SABRE with a solid nose and side NACA ducts for the engine intake! I forget the variant number but I don't recall any complaint from the testing of same - but there might have been some...... If not, surely the engine would demand more flow than just "letting it in"? Cheers, Ferg PS: I fashioned a small duct designed and fabricated per the original dimension ratio which directs 1.25 inch air onto the Ducati thing. (Fussing about flying in rain tho'


    Message 27


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    Time: 07:58:00 PM PST US
    From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject: Battery cable sizing
    The rear battery mode and such: I have two batteries behind the second bulkhead in 3/8inch box and run #4CCA through 1/2inch copper tubing. It's heavier but the batteries are not near the gas tank....... I worked out the relatives wire sizes of the tubing and will report back once I've delved through the records.........! Cheers Ferg


    Message 28


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    Time: 10:46:02 PM PST US
    From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
    Subject: Propeller - Flying in rain
    Karl, Can you please elaborate on what you say at the end of your response to my question about flying in rain with air intake on top of cowling: I have flown in the rain with the standard setup, while returning from Oshkosh. I didn't notice any problems. But normally I try to avoid it, because it isn't good for the propeller. Regards Svein




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