---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/09/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:54 AM - Re: Propeller - Flying in rain (craig bastin) 2. 01:52 AM - Re: 912S - Flying in rain (David Joyce) 3. 01:59 AM - Re: Propeller - Flying in rain (David Joyce) 4. 05:08 AM - SV: Propeller - Flying in rain (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 5. 06:02 AM - Re: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim Stoveken) (david miller) 6. 06:24 AM - Re: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim Stoveken) (Christoph Both) 7. 07:55 AM - Re: Speaking Of Rough River (JEFF ROBERTS) 8. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman) 9. 11:10 AM - Re: Propeller - Flying in rain (Rob Housman) 10. 12:04 PM - Re: Propeller - Flying in rain (david miller) 11. 12:27 PM - Re: Re: Speaking Of Rough River (Fred Klein) 12. 02:21 PM - Re: Re: Cooling issues, once again! (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 13. 02:49 PM - FW: Restricted Airspace Notification - EGNW - 19/20 June 2010(Wickenby UK) (Robert C Harrison) 14. 03:09 PM - Re: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim Stoveken) (Bud Yerly) 15. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Bud Yerly) 16. 06:27 PM - Intercooler for 914 (rparigoris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:35 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain Heavy rain can (apparently, have heard this from several sources) erode the leading edge of some props, in much the same way as sand can which makes sense if you think about the water jet machining done these days, mind you i wonder how long it would take to see any sort of meaningful wear. If anyone has any firsthand experience with this i am sure the group would love to hear about it. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 3:44 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain Karl, Can you please elaborate on what you say at the end of your response to my question about flying in rain with air intake on top of cowling: I have flown in the rain with the standard setup, while returning from Oshkosh. I didn't notice any problems. But normally I try to avoid it, because it isn't good for the propeller. Regards Svein ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:51 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S - Flying in rain Svein, Have flown with several groups of all sorts of Europas through rain over the years, and have not known anyone to have any problems with the engine system. Have heard but not experienced of propeller problems, and would usually deliberately reduce prop RPM if rain cannot be avoided. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 5:13 PM Subject: Europa-List: 912S - Flying in rain > The current thread on combustion air, ram pressure, where to place the air > intake, etc. brings up the issue of flying in rain with the Europa > equipped > with the 912S, having the air intake arranged as a NACA duct on top of the > cowling and the plenum box just below the opening. There are two 3.3 mm > (1/8") drain holes at the bottom of this plenum box, which will be able to > drain away some water intake (you must fly with the ball in dead center > for > both to be effective). A certain air pressure build-up in the plenum > makes > the drainage more effective. > > > One theory I have heard goes as follows: If the engine were stopped and > surrounding air passed over the cowling at a speed of say 120 knots, very > little rain would enter the air box. The air would be backed up in the > NACA > duct and "new" air and rain drops would for the most part pass over it. > Given this starting scenario (the aircraft moving at a speed of 120 > knots): > If you now have a running engine it will still not suck in so much > combustion air that the velocity through the NACA duct is anywhere close > to > 120 knots + propeller slip stream velocity. Air would therefore still be > backed up in front of the plenum intake, with a certain amount of the air > and rain drops flowing over the inlet. > > > Theory and reality are two different matters also in this case. What has > been experienced when it comes to flying this configuration in rain > (drizzle, light, heavy) - is it definitely to be avoided or is it more a > matter of vertical and horizontal visibility? > > > Regards, > > Svein > > LN-SKJ > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:19 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain Craig/Svein, I have heard of a Woodcomp prop stripping off some of its carbon fibre sheathing in heavy rain, but having said that probably the majority of the guys that I have flown with (& my own plane) have Woodcomp props that have shown absolutely no effect. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "craig bastin" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:00 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain > Heavy rain can (apparently, have heard this from several sources) erode > the > leading edge of some props, in much the same way as sand can > which makes sense if you think about the water jet machining done these > days, mind you i wonder how long it would take to see any sort of > meaningful wear. > > If anyone has any firsthand experience with this i am sure the group would > love to hear about it. > > craig > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein > Johnsen > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 3:44 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain > > > Karl, > > > Can you please elaborate on what you say at the end of your response to > my > question about flying in rain with air intake on top of cowling: > > > I have flown in the rain with the standard setup, while returning from > Oshkosh. I didn't notice any problems. But normally I try to avoid it, > because it isn't good for the propeller. > > > Regards > > Svein > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:19 AM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain David/Craig, Thanks for the feedback. Lots of stuff about this on the internet, I see, but not indicating really serious consequences. To be avoided, of course, for many reasons, but probably not to be feared. Having an Airmaster with Warp Drive blades, I have now asked Airmaster for any experience they may have. Will post here any information received. Regards, Svein ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:38 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim Stoveken) Hi Luc, It's about time that we had a Quebec Europa. In Ontario we have a tri-gear in Cornwall and a mono and tri-gear in London. COPA or the RAA can provide info on importing, should not be a problem as the aircraft has over 100 hours. Regards, Dave C-FBZI On 8-Jun-10, at 6:38 PM, Luc Michaud wrote: > > > Also, if you live close to Savannah GA and would like to help, pls > contact me so we can discuss, as I need Europa knowledge, as well > as paperwork knowledge, as well as export from USA to Canada > knowledge, as well as... :( > > Finally, if you live anywhere near Montreal (Canada) and fly Europa > monowheel airplanes, pls contact me. If you are a Canada-certified > flight instructor, well then I'm dreaming ! > ... > > Best regards to this great community, which I hope I will be able > to join shortly, > > Luc Michaud > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim Stoveken) From: "Christoph Both" Hi Luc: Hello, and welcome! There is also a EUROPA Classic in Nova Scotia, in Wolfville, NS, close to Halifax. This is currently the only Europa east of Montreal! Building SLOW since 14 years! Fuselage and Tail feathers completed and painted and in preparation for engine installation, instruments and interior. Most XS mods incorporated but preferred the old cowling (with the dual, expensive rads) and the huge spinner for looks. 912S and Woodcomp 3000 2 blade VP prop. Glider wing kit awaits completion once flying. Classic wings still need filling , sanding and painting later this year. We have a very nice country side airport (CCW3) 20 minutes drive from my home where I am completing the kit. Christoph Both #223 Classic From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of david miller Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim Stoveken) Hi Luc, It's about time that we had a Quebec Europa. In Ontario we have a tri-gear in Cornwall and a mono and tri-gear in London. COPA or the RAA can provide info on importing, should not be a problem as the aircraft has over 100 hours. Regards, Dave C-FBZI On 8-Jun-10, at 6:38 PM, Luc Michaud wrote: Also, if you live close to Savannah GA and would like to help, pls contact me so we can discuss, as I need Europa knowledge, as well as paperwork knowledge, as well as export from USA to Canada knowledge, as well as... :( Finally, if you live anywhere near Montreal (Canada) and fly Europa monowheel airplanes, pls contact me. If you are a Canada-certified flight instructor, well then I'm dreaming ! ... Best regards to this great community, which I hope I will be able to join shortly, Luc Michaud href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron i cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c o ntribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:39 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Speaking Of Rough River From: JEFF ROBERTS Fred and All, Do we have a date for Rough River yet? Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush On Jun 8, 2010, at 6:06 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > > > On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:38 PM, Luc Michaud wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> My name is Luc Michaud, and I have just joined the Europa-List >> yesterday. > > Luc, > > Excellent introduction !! I'm sure you'll make many friendships in > the Europa community. > > Glad to learn you're not a Metropole (not that I have anything > against the French)...hope you'll join us in September for the Rough > River, KY europa fly in. > > Good luck w/ your quest, > > Fred > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:26 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Cooling issues, once again! On 06/09/2010 12:16 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > If weather cooperates, we can tomorrow do some flight testing. I will > let you know. Flight testing complete. Could take off at 115%, without any temperatures increasing during the prolonged climb out at 115%, with 75 knots. Water and oil stabilized at 90 C. This was with the cowl flap halfway closed, and an OAT of about 20 degrees. Can't believe what a difference it made to split up the two radiators. (This is more than just "lowering" the oil radiator: they now don't share any cooling air anymore). Amazing that just a 2 inch hole with cold air for the oil cooler is doing much more than sending all the air from the water radiator through the oil cooler. Now the oil radiator is gone from the duct, and I have surplus cooling, I can slim down the cooling duct and tunnel, and probably gain a few knots. I think the lesson to be learnt here is that the combination of oil cooler and water radiator is too restrictive to the cooling air. You can compensate this poor cooling by promoting air flow over the engine, but this is more costly in drag terms than to just give the oil cooler a dedicated air inlet of 2 inch. Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:44 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain I cannot speak from personal experience but having worked for a manufacturer of leading edge abrasion strips for ten years I can offer a relevant comment. In the case of composite propeller blades and rotor blades the industry (with one notable exception, Robinson) use electroformed nickel on the leading edge to protect against both rain and solids that would otherwise damage the leading edge. Other materials are better for either rain or solids but nickel is a superior compromise because it protects against damage from both. In commercial or military service composite blades require leading edge protection of some sort and if not nickel then stainless steel (Robinson) is used. Obviously our Europas will not be flown regularly in rain but any flown often from dirt strips should be equipped with leading edge protection on composite (or wood) blades. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 1:01 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain Heavy rain can (apparently, have heard this from several sources) erode the leading edge of some props, in much the same way as sand can which makes sense if you think about the water jet machining done these days, mind you i wonder how long it would take to see any sort of meaningful wear. If anyone has any firsthand experience with this i am sure the group would love to hear about it. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 3:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain Karl, Can you please elaborate on what you say at the end of your response to my question about flying in rain with air intake on top of cowling: I have flown in the rain with the standard setup, while returning from Oshkosh. I didn't notice any problems. But normally I try to avoid it, because it isn't good for the propeller. Regards Svein href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:45 PM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller - Flying in rain My new Sensenich has leading edge protection, but the paint on the blades is already showing signs of wear, I think due to grit on the runways and taxiways. I'm now keeping the RPM down while taxying, hoping that this will minimise further damage. Dave C-FBZI On 9-Jun-10, at 12:16 PM, Rob Housman wrote: > I cannot speak from personal experience but having worked for a > manufacturer of leading edge abrasion strips for ten years I can > offer a relevant comment. In the case of composite propeller > blades and rotor blades the industry (with one notable exception, > Robinson) use electroformed nickel on the leading edge to protect > against both rain and solids that would otherwise damage the > leading edge. Other materials are better for either rain or solids > but nickel is a superior compromise because it protects against > damage from both. > > > In commercial or military service composite blades require leading > edge protection of some sort and if not nickel then stainless steel > (Robinson) is used. Obviously our Europas will not be flown > regularly in rain but any flown often from dirt strips should be > equipped with leading edge protection on composite (or wood) blades. > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:52 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Speaking Of Rough River On Jun 9, 2010, at 7:39 AM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > Do we have a date for Rough River yet? Jeff...not that I'm aware of...setting such a date is above my pay grade...Fred ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:32 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Cooling issues, once again! Well done Frans!=0AI don't think much heat goes through the fins on the cyl inder anyway. All the heat is generated in the cylinder head and goes throu gh the head into the coolant and through the piston to heat the oil. Probab ly better to let the bores warm up to match the piston temperature anyway. More constant clearances, imho of course.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________ ______________________=0AFrom: Frans Veldman =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0A=0A=0ACan't believe what a difference it made to split up the two radiators.=0A(This is more than just "lowering" the oil radiator: they now don't=0Ashare any cooling air anymore). Amazing that ju st a 2 inch hole with=0Acold air for the oil cooler is doing much more than sending all the air=0Afrom the water radiator through the oil cooler.=0A =0A You can=0Acompensate this poor cooling by promoting air flow over the e ngine, but=0Athis is more costly in drag terms than to just give the oil co oler a=0Adedicated air inlet of 2 inch.=0A=0AFrans=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:04 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: FW: Restricted Airspace Notification - EGNW - 19/20 June 2010(Wickenby UK) This is really an invitation to our annual bash, be you from Europe or UK, Europa birds or any kind., please support us for various charity causes including Lincs Air Ambulance and Flights for Life. Overnight camping is cleared OK and good food and club facilities. Regards to all .....hope to see you on the authorized times. Bob Harrison G-PTAG _____ From: Joanna White [mailto:joanna_white@me.com] Sent: 09 June 2010 15:59 Subject: Restricted Airspace Notification - EGNW - 19/20 June 2010 Hi there, You may be unaware of the air show times for wings and wheels weekend, when aircraft movements 3nm around Wickenby will be restricted. Please read below for details of operation times. If you can't see an image below then please visit - http://www.wickenbyairfield.com/notam/index.html Thank you, Joanna White Wickenby Aerodrome Home About Wickenby Contact Wickenby Links News Wickenby Wings & Wheels Visit by air Visit by car Attractions Wickenby Wings and Wheels 2010 Information for visiting pilots On 19th and 20th June Wickenby Airfield will have restricted access to the airspace around our ATZ due to air show activities. Visiting aircraft movements will not be allowed between the following times: Saturday 19th: 11.15 to 12.45 LOCAL - 15.15 to 16.45 LOCAL Sunday 20th: 11.15 to 12.45 LOCAL - 15.15 to 16.45 LOCAL Airspace of 3nm radius around the airfield extending up to 4,500 feet AMSL will have restricted access between these times. Outside of these hours the airfield will operate as normal, however due to expected traffic volumes PPR by telephone is not required for this weekend. All visiting aircraft please call when 5nm from Wickenby on 122.450 for advice regarding joining procedures. When approaching and departing Wickenby we recommend you contact Waddington Zone for traffic information on 127.350. wickenby plan No non-radio aircraft accepted due to the expected volume of traffic over the WWW weekend. Please contact the airfield operator for any special arrangements. Click on image to view Pooleys layout of Wickenby 2010 Wickenby Aerodrome. The Control Tower, Langworth, Lincoln. LN3 5AX. Telephone 01673 885000 Website designed by Primetime Media ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:34 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim Stoveken) Luc, I am Bud Yerly of Custom Flight Creations, the US Europa Dealer for and also Tech Assistance for Europa Aircraft. I am the "some guy" in Florida, and did the mods to Jim Stovekin's now Arthur Goodman's old Classic converting the tail wheel and the Classic wing mod. All the work done is in the logs. Contact me off line direct at my email if you have questions. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations Shop Phone 813 653-4989 Cell 813 244-8354 ----- Original Message ----- From: Luc Michaud To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 6:38 PM Subject: Europa-List: Self-Introduction - and looking for *ANY* info on N202Y (built by Jim Stoveken) Hello everyone, My name is Luc Michaud, and I have just joined the Europa-List yesterday. I'm in the Montr=E9al region, and work in the IT group of Bombardier Aerospace (mostly on CAD/CAM/CAE/PLM/ERP projects). I have been involved in the aviation world early on, getting both glider and private pilot licenses even before my driver's license - thanks to the Royal Canadian Air Cadets. Glider on Schweizer SGS 2-33's in St-Honore, private on C152 in Bromont, both in Quebec, Canada. The idea of building my own airplane was already quite present in my mind, and I was fantatizing about eventually getting my own plane - at the time, the Quickie-2. But, I was young, broke, and had to wait... Wait I did... Then in the mid 90's, as my career was taking a lot of room, I feel in love... ...with the Europa ! Zoom Campbell and all them other guys were so drooling over it, and I couldn't wait to join them, soon... Soon was not soon enough, if you ask me, but here I am ! A few weeks ago, I looked around for which kit would now be best. Europa and Dynaero were pretty much the 2 contenders... Then, about 3 weeks ago, my wife convinced me that I was a better idea to fly my own airplane than spend years building it, whilst barely flying, in others' airplanes. So off I went looking... I found an Europa monowheel, classic, for sale, on barnstormers... Airworthy, 300 hours TT, Rotax 912, Prince prop, bunch of mods done. Already sent a deposit to the current owner. Now, I'm trying to get any info that you guys may have on that airplane. It's N202Y, built by James N Stoveken, out of Ocean Isle Beach, North Carolina, and first flew in the Spring of 1999. I got to talk with Jim, a really great guy; he flew about 280 hours of bliss on his N202Y, before selling it about 2 years ago due to not being that young a coot anymore, and already having a great Ercoupe (Alon A2). His prior builds included a Quickie and a Boredom Fighter, so I felt that he must have had the right stuff to build a sweet Europa. So, now I'm trying to buy N202Y from Edward Arthur Goodman. I gathered that the airplane is in Townsend, GA. Mr. Goodman has had someone putting in a bunch of mods (in Florida ?), the list of which I am yet to get. I know he got the tailwheel moved to the back, but am not certain if he got the wing mod done. I presume he did, as he got N202Y's annual signed off in 2010/03 (your thoughts ?). ... So now, I'm trying to get *ANY* info on N202Y... If you've seen it, worked on it, flew it, let me know. Also, if you live close to Savannah GA and would like to help, pls contact me so we can discuss, as I need Europa knowledge, as well as paperwork knowledge, as well as export from USA to Canada knowledge, as well as... :( Finally, if you live anywhere near Montreal (Canada) and fly Europa monowheel airplanes, pls contact me. If you are a Canada-certified flight instructor, well then I'm dreaming ! ... Best regards to this great community, which I hope I will be able to join shortly, Luc Michaud http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:48 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Cooling issues, once again! Frans, Lowering the oil cooler and plugging the gap between the two is all that is necessary normally even for the 914. If you put the coolers dead behind one another you better only have a 912. Once the oil cooler is moved down as low as it can go and the leaks plugged around and between the coolers, it cools very well up to about 95 degrees F, then I hate to say it but I have to climb out at 90 Kts with power at 34 inches to keep the #3 cylinder temp below 250. Simple ducting to bring cooling air over the top cures that, but I still climb out at 90, to keep things at about 230. I run Evans coolant right now, just to test it, and found I prefer glycol as the engine runs a bit cooler. Now if I could stop this stupid turbo from leaking still. In my cooling briefing I published I too feel as you, why not just bathe the coolers in their own air. It will work as you have seen. Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: GRAHAM SINGLETON To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Cooling issues, once again! Well done Frans! I don't think much heat goes through the fins on the cylinder anyway. All the heat is generated in the cylinder head and goes through the head into the coolant and through the piston to heat the oil. Probably better to let the bores warm up to match the piston temperature anyway. More constant clearances, imho of course. Graham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Frans Veldman To: europa-list@matronics.com Can't believe what a difference it made to split up the two radiators. (This is more than just "lowering" the oil radiator: they now don't share any cooling air anymore). Amazing that just a 2 inch hole with cold air for the oil cooler is doing much more than sending all the air from the water radiator through the oil cooler. You can compensate this poor cooling by promoting air flow over the engine, but this is more costly in drag terms than to just give the oil cooler a dedicated air inlet of 2 inch. Frans http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:25 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Intercooler for 914 From: "rparigoris" Has anyone measured the air-box temperature drop (if any) when using the inter cooler (Bell?) installed as per Factory instructions (John Hurst)? If you wouldn't mind sharing particulars, that would be appreciated. For those of you flying 914 without inter cooler, have you ever reached intervention temperature where TCU turned down pressure? If you wouldn't mind sharing particulars, that would be appreciated including if you have new style TCU with 88C air-box. Very discouraging that Frans found that his inter cooler didn't drop air box temperature at all. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300776#300776 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.