---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/10/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:35 AM - Re: Intercooler for 914 (Frans Veldman) 2. 04:39 AM - Thoughts about the intercooler for 914 (Frans Veldman) 3. 05:45 AM - Cooling issues, the solution, with pictures. (Frans Veldman) 4. 07:28 AM - Battery Cable sizing (Fergus Kyle) 5. 07:37 AM - Address Expalnation - off topic (Fergus Kyle) 6. 07:39 AM - exhaust augmentor (Frans Veldman) 7. 07:48 AM - Re: Intercooler for 914 (rparigoris) 8. 08:05 AM - Re: Thoughts about the intercooler for 914 (rparigoris) 9. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: Intercooler for 914 (Frans Veldman) 10. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Thoughts about the intercooler for 914 (Frans Veldman) 11. 08:32 AM - Re: Intercooler for 914 (rparigoris) 12. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: Intercooler for 914 (Frans Veldman) 13. 02:43 PM - Ktiplanes Video Clip (Erich Trombley) 14. 04:04 PM - Re: Ktiplanes Video Clip (Tim Houlihan) 15. 07:24 PM - Re: Ktiplanes Video Clip (Martin Tuck) 16. 11:08 PM - Popham International flyin (Steven Pitt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:23 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Intercooler for 914 On 06/10/2010 03:24 AM, rparigoris wrote: > Has anyone measured the air-box temperature drop (if any) when using the inter cooler (Bell?) installed as per Factory instructions (John Hurst)? Furhter investigation revealed that measuring the airbox temperature is not an easy task. The sensor has to be mounted in the metal heat conducting airbox, and measure the temperature of a very bad heat conductor inside. It appears to be difficult to prevent heat from the airbox itself to influence the sensor. I prepared a special temperature sensor for this, but even this sensor appears to leak some heat from the mounting thread to the tip. I have asked UMA to make a special airbox temperature sensor for me. If anyone is interested, I can ask them to make a few more of these. Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:12 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Thoughts about the intercooler for 914 The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether I should have an intercooler at all. (Apart from the fact that I think that the commonly used Bell intercooler behind the naca inlet isn't doing much at all). Let's suppose we have a proper setup, and the intercooler functions as intended. There are three reasons for having an intercooler: 1) It reduces thermal strain on the engine by cooling the inlet air. 2) It allows the engine to produce a bit more power, as cooled air is denser and thus contains more oxygen per volume. Cooling the air lowers the pressure as well, so the TCU will boost up the pressure a bit more until it reaches the target pressure in the airbox again. Thus, you will end up with more dense air containing more oxygen per volume (and at the same time of a lower temperature). The carbs will automatically squirt more fuel in this denser air. You will end up with more power, but of course to make this power you need more fuel as well. These HP's are not for free. 3) If the OAT is extremely high, it could be possible that the heat generated by boosing the pressure causes the inlet temperature to reach the limit programmed into the TCU. The TCU will then reduce boost pressure to stay below this temperature limit. This is 72C in older TCU's, 88C in newer TCU's. The intercooler will prevent this TCU-intervention from happening. The downside of the intercooler: 1) Weight. This one is obvious. But of course in HP per weight these are still "light-weight" HP's. 2) Drag. Intercoolers need loads of air to work well. The flow of air the engine needs is high, and the temperature difference is small. So you need to cool a lot of stuff that is just above ambient temperature. This needs a lot of cooling air. Dragging air through a radiator is a costly process. It might well be that the intercooler will cost you a few knots cruise speed. Do we actually need an intercooler? No doubt, a properly setup intercooler will gain you a few HP's. The commonly used Bell intercooler is worth 5 to 7 HP's (provided the setup allows sufficient cooling air through it). But, we use these HP's only during the take off run, when we run the engine at 115%. It doesn't make sense to make more HP's when the throttle is partially open: the throttle is partially open with a reason, and if the intercooler increases the power of the engine, you have to throttle back a bit more to stay at your intended fuel consumption, MAP, speed and altitude. Apart from this, the intercooler only works if the turbo is actually boosting the pressure. Without boost, the air won't heat up so there is nothing to cool at all. During the cruise at moderate altitudes, as long as MAP is lower than the ambient pressure, the turbo is not doing much, so the intercooler is useless here. Even if MAP is slightly higher, the heat produced by boosting up the pressure this tiny amount doesn't produce enough heat to justify even thinking about it. At high altitudes, let's say 10.000 feet or higher, the turbo is probably working quite a bit during the cruise, for any higher MAP than the ambient pressure can provide. Still, if you don't fly with wide open throttle, the HP gain itself is useless. We then of course still have the advantage of cooling the air, reducing thermal stress of the engine. But how warm is the air actually at 10.000+ feet to begin with? Does it actually make sense to cool it? Maybe the increase of temperature is even beneficial, as this reduces the chances of icing and promotes better fuel atomization. The 5 to 7 HP gain allow you to take off in a bit shorter distance. This would be great, but the fact that an Europa with a 914 can take off already at a shorter distance than it needs to land, so this makes this a theoretical advantage only. To practically benefit from the ability to take off from an extremely short runway, you first have to land there, which is impossible. Then the final advantage is that it could be theoretically possible to reach the warning limit of the TCU, 88 Celcius of the inlet temperature, and if that happens the TCU will reduce boost and hence power. It must be awfully warm if this happens, and I wonder if anyone has ever experienced this loss of power in extremely hot OAT's. So, to summarize: 1) During the cruise at low altitude the turbo isn't heating up the air, so the intercooler is worthless. 2) During the cruise at high altitude the turbo is heating up the air, but at that altitude the air is not very warm to begin with so it is not a stress for the engine anyway. 3) During all this cruising we are carrying the weight of the intercooler, and dragging loads of air through it. The intercooler is costly in terms of cooling drag. 4) During take off we have 5 to 7 more HP's available, and cooler air for the engine. But it doesn't allow us to take off from shorter runways as the landing distance is already larger than the take off distance. So.... I'm in serious doubt whether I should take out the intercooler. Another option is to have a flap on it, to close off the useless air flow through it during the cruise. An interesting way to achieve this is to operate this flap by a piston, fed by the manifold pressure. As soon as the manifold pressure is higher than the ambient pressure, it pushes the flap open. So the intercooler is only producing drag when it actually makes sense do to so. We could also achieve this with a servo operated flap, controlled by a differential pressure sensor (combined with a lower temperature limit). All this of course is quite a fuss for a small gain in HP's, only used (not needed) during a fraction of the trip. Opinions? Frans ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:50 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Cooling issues, the solution, with pictures. As I received quite a few requests for pictures of my experimental cooling setup, I decided to post them here. Many of us experience cooling problems. Quite some people believe that getting more air through the cowling is the solution. But as our Rotax engine is fluid cooled, and not primarily air cooled like a lycosaurus, I had my reservations against using more air to cool the engine. Sure it will work, but at quite some costs. Air used for cooling shows up as cooling drag into the equation. According to some literature, cooling drag can account for 40% of the total airplane drag! So it is worth to find a solution that works with minimal "air consumption". A lot of people told me that lowering the oil radiator made quite an improvement. I decided not just to lower the oil cooler, but to take it out of the duct completely, and give it its own air inlet. And that made an unbelievable change! Picture 1: The oil cooler, now mounted on the starboard footwell. A better place would be in front of the port footwell, but as I have an intercooler, I had to put the oil tank there, leaving not enough space for the oil cooler there. As first tests indicate, now the oil cooler is fed with cold air, it is oversized. A smaller oil cooler would probably do as well. The oil cooler has an aluminium wedge shape diffuser added to it. Air is blown into this diffuser with a 2 inch scat tube. The exit air of the radiator is just dumped inside the cowling. The use of a scat tube makes it very easy to add a butterfly valve to it, so to prevent the oil from cooling too much (or to allow it to warm up quicker). I consider this a better option than to use an oil thermostat: Thermostat's require more oil hose connections, and when you don't need to cool the oil, precious air is still dragged through the cooler. The valve is not yet installed here. Picture 2: The original 3 inch inlets are closed off by an aluminium plate. (Guess some people will wonder whether I should be building RV's instead of Europa's because of my liberal use of aluminium constructions. ;-) ) Two small naca ducts in the top cowling (not shown) provide air for cooling the cylinders. They are more efficient than the round inlets because they are aimed on top of the cylinders, forcing the air from top to bottom. The smaller front opening just above the original air inlet is the inlet for the oil cooler. This appears to be all that is needed! Can climb out at 75 knots with 115% power, without the oil temperature increasing. It is tale telling that such a small opening for air provides better cooling than the original Europa setup with the two radiators in tandem. Please keep in mind that all this is built as a "quick fix" to allow us to keep flying. Cowling rework is scheduled for another time. Picture 3: The reason why I could not just lower the oil cooler. My cooling duct is trimmed down considerably. It should perform better than the standard Europa XS dog house, but of course it took out the option of "lowering the oil radiator". I misunderstood the fragment in the build manual, that lowering the oil radiator was an "option" for "hot climates". I didn't consider our Dutch climat as a "hot climat". The cooling duct is equipped with a servo controlled cowl flap. Anyway, I have plenty of cooling now, with a very low drag setup. Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:57 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Battery Cable sizing Cheers, Per my message same subject sent late 08JUN=A1=AF10 (Canada) wherein I promised backup calcs for aft battery cabling - These are my calcs for using household copper tubing as container and ground return for both aft-cited batteries. I wanted to know if I was in the =A1=AEballpark=A1=AF for amp-carrying capacity. I suggest following it through if you plan similar as a phone-call or doorbell might have interrupted the incredibly complex math. AS for European/Brit equivalents, caveat emptor. Apologies to most US types but calc=A1=AFed in mm for greater accuracy(?): COPPER TUBING - =A8=F6=A1=B1 x 96=A1=B1 - TYPE =A1=AEM=A1=AF - CURRENT EQUIVALENT Method #1 - Cross-sectional area (1) OD=D1=0.624=A1=B1 (2) r1=D1/2=.312=A1=B1=7.9248mm. (3) A1=197.29956 mm2 (4) ID = 0.570=A1=B1 (5) r2 = D2/2 = .285=A1=B1 = 7.239mm (6) A2 = 164.62912 mm2 (7) A3 = A1-A2 = 197.29956mm2 - 164.62912 mm2 = 32.67044 mm2 (8) D3 = (=A1=EEA3/=AC=B1)x2 = 6.449599mm (9) According to POCKET REF manual (Sequoia Publishing, Colorado), page 113 (or p.810 of the Handbook of Applied Mathematics), the diameter in millimetres of AWG2 is 6.544 mm. Therefore the current-carrying capacity of thin-wall copper tubing is roughly equivalent to AWG2, which for type T or TW gives an Ampacity of just under 110A at 40deg C. Two tubes electrically-attached should carry the equivalent of AWG000 cable. Since this is the design for battery contacts used, the ground return capabilities satisfy electrical loads very well. Method #2 - Weight per 1000 feet (1) Measured weight of tube sample gives equivalent of 87.1 gm/ft (2) This is equal to 87,100 gm per 1000ft (3) 87100 gm = 87100 x 0,0022 = 191.62 lb/1000ft (4) Referring to the reference manual in item (9) above, this gives an AWG equivalent to just 4% under AWG2, or about 110A, to 40deg C. (5) See 2nd paragraph, item (9) above for double tubing. Both these methods are in general agreement as to sizing. Cheers, Ferg PS: I used #4CCA from Perihelion, with double layer of heatshrink for security in pipe plus electrical tube end protectors on entry/exit. The tubing exceeded the CCA capacities. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:43 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Address Expalnation - off topic Perhaps this is not new, so forgive, but having been asked I thought I should 'splain: The 'To' line (and several others) as above have funny numbers to start the address. Since address lists on my email program start with numbers, I have assigned same to commonly-used addresses since they are now all at the top - the often-er, the lesser the value. I apologise if Europalist is number 5 but there are family pressures. Happy Landings Ferg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:02 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: exhaust augmentor Some people asked me for pictures about my exhaust augmentor. I think it might be worth discussing about this on the forum, so here we go. What is an exhaust augmentor? An exhaust augmentor is a construction that makes use of the kinetic energy of the exhaust flow to suck out air from the cowling. There are of course other ways to promote air flow through the cowling, but they come with a price, usually paid in drag. The use of exhaust energy to suck out cowling air is free, and as an additional benefit, it also works when the aircraft is on the ground, without airflow. How does it work? When the diameter of the exhaust suddenly increases, the exhaust flow should reduce in speed to keep the same volume per time travelled. As exhaust gas has inertia, it will try to keep the same speed, so the larger volume has to be filled with something else. This is the same as how a venturi works. It generates a vacuum at the other end. All this is simply realised by hiding the exhaust inside a duct, and then to make the exhaust somewhat shorter than the duct, so the exhaust flow "sees" a sudden increase in diameter, and generates a vacuum in this area. The other (front) end of the duct is connected to the space inside the cowling. With some work one could duct it to specific places, but I opted to keep it simple and just end it where the exhaust curves upward to the silencer. Why do you need an exhaust augmentor? 1) Negative drag, or propulsion. Exhaust gas contains precious energy. The outflow of exhaust can be a propulsive force (jet engines work that way). But you have to aim it in the proper direction, and to mix it properly with the air flow around the airplane. Mixing hot air and cold air will provoke turbulence; the lower the temperature of the exhaust, the less drag is associated with it. By mixing exhaust air with cowling air, the exhaust flow is reduced in temperature and increased in volume at the same time. It can then be release safely without burning the airplane, and without creating excess turbulence. Also the aluminium duct is cooled by air flow from the outside, providing an ever more gradual temperature difference between inside and outside. 2) Cooling. The exhaust augmentor sucks out the air of the cowling. This is in some setups the main cooling for ground operations. The Long-Eze people often cool their engines with the use of an exhaust augmentor. Most Europa's can benefit from additional ground cooling as well. 3) Elimination of exhaust drag. The exhaust is normally a round tube poking out of the side of the cowling. Round tubes are among the worst aerodynamic profiles, with other words, they produce a lot of drag. An exhaust augmentor allows the exhaust to be streamlined, eliminating yet another source of drag. 4) To exit the exhaust of the cowling, you have to make a hole in the cowling, with enough space to allow for engine vibrations. It is unclear in the Europa setup whether this hole allows air out of the cowling, or lets air in, but both options are unwelcome as they hinder cooling and produce unnecessary drag. With an exhaust augmentor, the exhaust hole is fully functional. 5) Exhausts produce "dirt". In the original Europa setup, carbon and oil is deposited on the leading edge of the port wing, the wheel pants of a tri gear, the flap hinges, etc. With an exhaust augmentor, the dirt is deposited on the underside of the plane, where it is out of sight. 6) Noise. The source of the exhaust noise is heat. Cool down the gasses inside the exhaust, and you won't hear the noise anymore, at least no more than the exhaust of a vacuum cleaner. Of course the exhaust augmentor will not cool down the exhaust completely, but the reduction in sound is probably measurable. About the pictures. Keep in mind that this is an experimental setup. I had to rework the cowling anyway because of cooling modifications, so I decided that this was the time to experiment with an exhaust augmentor. The setup is not yet painted or anything. The first thing you need is a new exhaust tube. A company specialized in building stainless steel exhausts was willing to weld one on my directions. The new exhaust was 200 grams heavier than the original one. Then you need a duct, an enclosure. I make one of a sheet of aluminium, bended with a 8 cm diameter, into a U-shape. The top of the U is closed with an aluminium heat shield, allowing some space between the foot well and the shield. Cool air is drawn through this space as well, to keep the bottom of the foot well cool. The exhaust should be shorter than this duct to generate the sucking effect. I made it 5 cm shorter, but this was just guessing. The best length can be found with experimentation, but is a bit cumbersome to do. I noticed just a slight discolourisation at the end of the inside of the duct, so obviously the exhaust fumes have expanded there just enough to reach the duct. I think this means that this is about the optimum shape. If the duct is discoloured over a longer distance, there is no vacuum effect anymore in that area, if it doesn't touch the duct, some air might even enter via the exit in opposite direction to fill up the void. In front of the duct is a shape, attached to the cowling, to make a smooth transition between the cowling and the exhaust augmentor. It is not yet fully sanded, nor painted, but a rough representation about how it is going to look like. To protect the fuselage in the direct vincinity of the exhaust, I put a small aluminium plate against the underside of the airplane, spaced 3mm's off the underside, to allow air to circulate between it. This proves to work well. As the Europa classic also exits the exhaust on the underside of the airplane, I consider this as safe to do. Test results: 1) The foot well doesn't run hot, not even with full power on the ground. 2) The aluminium duct feels hot over its entire length, despite the fact that it is in the propeller stream and gets a lot of cooling. In my opinion this can't be contributed to radiant heat alone, it means that hot air from inside the cowling is rushing out via this duct. Keep in mind that I have closed off the front 3 inch round inlets, so I have no ram air. Instead, I have two naca ducts in the top cowling aimed at the cylinders, but due to their location they are out of the propeller wash. This means on the ground I have little airflow inside the cowling. It appears that the augmenter is making up for this. 3) If I open up the coolant access door after a ground test session, it normally feels like opening a furnace. This is no longer the case: it feels relatively cold inside, but after a few seconds, suddenly hot air exits the access door opening. Hot air starts to rise up. This might indicate that as long as the engine is running, there is quite some airflow through the cowling. 4) In flight I could not see an obvious increase in speed. This means that if there is a speed difference, it is probably low. Unfortunately, I have also changed the inlet of the radiator at the same time (this was a failed attempt to get the two radiators in tandem working) and this new setup is likely to have more drag. It could be that the augmentor is making up for the drag penalty of the new radiator inlet. The latter I will revert back to its original shape soon. Frans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:06 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Intercooler for 914 From: "rparigoris" Hi Frans I ordered a while back one of UMAs senders for their air box probe without anything inside. Ends up it fits my 3-TO-92 package (-55 to 150C) perfectly: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=78342 Make sure you get their special sealing washer. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300812#300812 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:02 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Thoughts about the intercooler for 914 From: "rparigoris" Hi Frans I agree that measuring temperature of air is not an easy thing to do without being influenced by mount. My bottom line question to install intercooler or not was based on function of Bell intercooler. If it is not doing job or extremely limited job, then may not be worth it. It seems to me you are in the perfect situation to measure actual performance difference. Perhaps if you don't mind you can perform a few tests to measure performance now: **In climb have intercooler flap opened and set up climb using 115% power, try maintaining climb to let things normalize, then set prop manually to hold RPM, note MP, then close intercooler flap. If the intercooler is doing anything then you should see a drop in RPM as you are now dumping warmer air into engine. Leave flap closed to long enough to normalize, then open flap again and note if there is a RPM increase. **Perform same test at 10K with full throttle in cruise. If you do see a change then there is a good chance your air box sender is speaking with a forked tongue. One major reason for not dumping air that is too warm through a 914 is for a given octane fuel detonation will occur a lot sooner than with cooler air. That I believe is primary reason for TCU intervention. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300816#300816 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:48 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Intercooler for 914 On 06/10/2010 04:47 PM, rparigoris wrote: > I ordered a while back one of UMAs senders for their air box probe without anything inside. Ends up it fits my 3-TO-92 package (-55 to 150C) perfectly: > http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=78342 > Make sure you get their special sealing washer. I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. The UMA sender I got was all metal. It was just measuring the temperature of the airbox, not from the air inside. The airbox itself is probably a lot warmer than the air inside. So, I filed off the metal surrounding the protruding part of the sensor. There it was, the sensor itself embedded in epoxy. Now it worked much better, but still it looks like the airbox temperature is influencing the measuring of the air temperature. UMA agreed that this setup is not working well, so they are willing to make a sensor with a much more protruding tip. So, the problem is not the sensor, but how to mount the sensor without heat leak from the metal thread to the sensor itself. Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:14 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Thoughts about the intercooler for 914 On 06/10/2010 05:04 PM, rparigoris wrote: > It seems to me you are in the perfect situation to measure actual > performance difference. Perhaps if you don't mind you can perform a > few tests to measure performance now: **In climb have intercooler > flap opened and set up climb using 115% power, try maintaining climb > to let things normalize, then set prop manually to hold RPM, note MP, > then close intercooler flap. I will do so as soon as the cloud base will rise enough. ;-) > One major reason for not dumping air that is too warm through a 914 > is for a given octane fuel detonation will occur a lot sooner than > with cooler air. That I believe is primary reason for TCU > intervention. That's right. But I might assume that Rotax has set this temperature limit to a specific value, and below this limit there is no risk of detonation. I think it is quite a challenge to get the inlet temperature up to the limit of 88C... Frans ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:54 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Intercooler for 914 From: "rparigoris" Hi Frans Now I too am confused a little. I figured UMA had it figured out how to best measure air box air temperature. They offer a Rotax 914 air box sender. I can't use their sender output, so I ordered one of their senders without anything inside. It is a hex head probe made out of brass with a perhaps 1" or 1+1/4" thin extension that protrudes into air box stream. It comes with a nice black rubber seal (think steel or aluminium washer covered with rubber). I was going to make one, but figured if they have it figured out, just use theirs and install my electronic sender in it. Making a longer and thinner probe has more probability of breaking off. Are you saying this is the sender you purchased from UMA originally that is not working too well? Now they are making you another with a longer probe tip? Thx. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300822#300822 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:12 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Intercooler for 914 On 06/10/2010 05:31 PM, rparigoris wrote: > Now I too am confused a little. It gets more confusing all the time! > I figured UMA had it figured out how > to best measure air box air temperature. They offer a Rotax 914 air > box sender. Well, when I ordered it, I asked specifically for something like this, but they didn't have it. I could buy the carb temp stuff instead. So that is what I bought, although the upper limit of the scale is with +60C less than I wanted, and the low limit of -60C is somewhat less than I ever hope to encounter with my Europa! > I can't use their sender output, so I ordered one of > their senders without anything inside. It is a hex head probe made > out of brass with a perhaps 1" or 1+1/4" thin extension that > protrudes into air box stream. Do you have a part number or anything else I can refer to? > Are you saying this is the sender you purchased from UMA originally > that is not working too well? Yep. It was all metal. So essentially it was measuring the temperature of the metal airbox itself. Frans ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:55 PM PST US From: "Erich Trombley" Subject: Europa-List: Ktiplanes Video Clip Below is a link to Kitplanes video clip of Kim Prout and his lovely bird . The video is about 5 min long. Good stuff. Enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0et96eefLM Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 ____________________________________________________________ Single and 21+ Women Find men near you. Free to browse profiles. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4c115c1e6b220389805st01vuc ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:35 PM PST US From: Tim Houlihan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ktiplanes Video Clip It is also on the Europa club web site at http://www.europaclub.org.uk/ Tim Erich Trombley wrote: > Below is a link to Kitplanes video clip of Kim Prout and his lovely > bird. The video is about 5 min long. Good stuff. Enjoy. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0et96eefLM > > Erich Trombley > N28ET Classic Mono 914 > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *Single and 21+ Women* > Find men near you. Free to browse profiles. > online-date.org > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:42 PM PST US From: Martin Tuck Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ktiplanes Video Clip Great video - what is going on with those wings at around the 4:20 mark? Is that flutter or just a shaky camera. I'd edit that bit out. Regards, Martin Tuck Europa N152MT Wichita, Kansas Erich Trombley wrote: > Below is a link to Kitplanes video clip of Kim Prout and his lovely > bird. The video is about 5 min long. Good stuff. Enjoy. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0et96eefLM > > Erich Trombley > N28ET Classic Mono 914 > * > * ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:03 PM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Europa-List: Popham International flyin YOUR CLUB NEEDS YOU!!!!! The airfield is waiting................................. The Marquee is erected............................. 5 Europas await their brothers ................... Where will you be this weekend?????? The Europa Club is looking forward to welcoming you to Popham over the next three days to enjoy a feast of Europas and guests from all over the UK and Europe (weather permitting). The AGM will be held Saturday afternoon. See you soon. Regards Steve Pitt on behalf of the Europa Club ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.