---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/18/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:34 AM - Re: Europaphiles in Oz (JR Gowing) 2. 04:20 AM - Re: Europaphiles in Oz (craig bastin) 3. 04:35 AM - Re: Has anyone else.....? (JR Gowing) 4. 04:35 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (JR Gowing) 5. 11:20 AM - propeller shaft alignment w/ cowl (Fred Klein) 6. 12:08 PM - Arplast PV50 propellor (David Corbett) 7. 01:23 PM - Re: propeller shaft alignment w/ cowl (Bud Yerly) 8. 01:46 PM - Re: propeller shaft alignment w/ cowl (Fred Klein) 9. 02:58 PM - Re: Europaphiles in Oz (Carl Pattinson) 10. 04:19 PM - Re: Europaphiles in Oz (JR Gowing) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:41 AM PST US From: "JR Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz Sorry Carl We are too far south near Vic Border. JR (Bob) Gowing Kit 327 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:58 AM Subject: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz > > > Hi All, > > Calling all Europaphiles down under - thats Australia (or is the UK down > under - relatively speaking). > > We are visiting our daughter near Brisbane at the end of August this year > (Caloundra) . It would be great to meet up with any local builders/ flyers > in the area and share a beer. > > Drop us a line - carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk > > Carl & Dot Pattinson > G-LABS (Classic mono) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 18:35:00 -- We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:10 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz i would be happy to meet with you carl, my baby isnt finished yet, or i would take you run a run up the coast send me your details off list if you like craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:59 AM Subject: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz Hi All, Calling all Europaphiles down under - thats Australia (or is the UK down under - relatively speaking). We are visiting our daughter near Brisbane at the end of August this year (Caloundra) . It would be great to meet up with any local builders/ flyers in the area and share a beer. Drop us a line - carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk Carl & Dot Pattinson G-LABS (Classic mono) Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 16:35:00 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:04 AM PST US From: "JR Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Has anyone else.....? Bill McClelland I had the struts made to Kingsley Hurst's drawings and fitted them to work well; but it is challenge to get them correctly set in place. JR (Bob) Gowing Kit 327 in Oz ----- Original Message ----- From: "William McClellan" Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 12:47 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Has anyone else.....? > > > Ferg, > I received the instructions from Kingsley Hurst and am just getting into > the middle of the mod. Kingsley adapted the system from Ted Gladstone's > procedure. I have made the two pairs of lever arms and am determining the > best positions for the 4 pivot points for fit and to optimize the full > open position and the lifting pressure. Have you done the mod or > considering it? > Bill McClellan > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 18:31:00 -- We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:04 AM PST US From: "JR Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! Tony I did not miss the Europa; I had fungi in my lungs and an aging head. I have returned to attacking the fungi and I bought a book about stimulating the mind while I was at Kennedy Space Centre; so things are looking good. JR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Renshaw" Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 3:56 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! > > Hey bob, > Glad to hear you r home. How was > The trip? Did u miss the Europa? > Reg > TR > > On 10/07/2010, at 6:08 PM, "JR Gowing" wrote: > >> >> Frans >> >> Just back from holiday in US and seen your list of problems. >> >> Have you seen the Tropical Chin Intake? >> >> I have just fitted one to my 912S installation, still a long way from >> flying. >> >> It forms a sharp edged entry to the large rectangular inlet with a much >> smaller eliptical entry formed from aluminium. >> I think I downloaded it from the Europa Club but Popular Flying Assn >> mentioned at the top of page 1. >> >> Frustration is a killer! >> Best Wishes >> JR Gowing Kit 327 in Oz >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEFF ROBERTS" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 3:52 AM >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again! >> >> >>> >>> Frans, >>> I have the 912 set up so I might not know what I'l talking about but... >>> I had the very same issues for the first 150 hours. Every time it got >>> hot I was in trouble with temps at their limit. I made the shroud for >>> over the cylinders. I lowered the oil radiator 2 inches behind the >>> water, I sealed everything, I made new inlets in the upper cowl, and >>> still didn't get it solved completely. I then finally lowered the >>> metal duct down an inch or so, so the bottom radiator reached the >>> lower cowl without the sealant and bam. My temps dropped 30 to 40 >>> degrees. I believe two things helped in this. The radiators we're >>> getting more air but the big thing was by lowering the duct it opened >>> the bottom for escaping air. Not sure if this all applies to you but >>> if you have the duct up to high close to the muff all you need to do >>> is lower it. You'l be needing to ad a flap in colder days to get >>> things in the proper temp range. >>> By the way the shroud did even the cylinder temps out but it didn't do >>> much to cool the water or oil. >>> >>> Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:28 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: >>> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> Gentlemen, >>>> >>>> Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not >>>> satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914. >>>> >>>> Now, with increasing ambient temperatures, I have to severely limit my >>>> climb outs. Cruising is ok. During climb, both the water temperature >>>> and >>>> oil temperature approach the red line, more or less at the same time. >>>> Water temperature recovers faster than the oil temperature after I >>>> power >>>> down. At this time I can barely make it to circuit height and then >>>> have >>>> to level off, build more speed, and then limit my climb with 200 ft/ >>>> min >>>> until I'm in cooler air. The engine has now 32 hours on it, so it >>>> might >>>> still improve somewhat further, but I don't expect miracles from that. >>>> >>>> I had to do something. >>>> First I made an additional exit in the cowling, under the turbo, >>>> hoping >>>> to provide more airflow. Whether the airflow in the cowling improved I >>>> don't know, but it had zero effect on the water and oil temperatures. >>>> >>>> Temperatures inside the cowling seem to be ok anyway, no discoloured >>>> spark plug indicator labels (still bright yellow), no melted tie- >>>> wraps, etc. >>>> >>>> My conclusion was that the problem is not in cooling of the cowling, >>>> but >>>> somewhere in the efficiency of the radiators. >>>> >>>> So then I built a new radiator inlet, somewhat larger than previous >>>> one, >>>> with a lip to avoid digesting the boundary layer and making sure the >>>> inlet receives ram air, angled straight into the airflow, and with a >>>> diffuser for which I copied a profile out of a famous book. >>>> >>>> It was no improvement over my "free style" sleeker inlet and diffuser. >>>> None. Very frustrating, as I ruined my nicely shaped and painted >>>> original inlet for this. >>>> >>>> I need to do something, but to avoid ruining again something in >>>> order to >>>> solve this problem, I need to hear some experiences: >>>> >>>> 1) A shroud over the cylinders. I don't have it, but instead I have >>>> two >>>> naca ducts in the upper cowling, curved down to release air aimed at >>>> the >>>> cylinders. >>>> Has anyone ever tried whether the Rotax shroud (or home made shroud) >>>> makes any difference? Sure, it will cool the cylinders, but does it >>>> have >>>> any effect over the water temperature and/or oil temperature? Or is >>>> this >>>> again going to be a loss in time and effort? >>>> >>>> 2) In my setup the oil cooler receives exit air from the water >>>> cooler. I >>>> know there is a "trick" mentioned in the build manual for hot climates >>>> to lower the oil radiator 2 inches to receive cold air instead of warm >>>> air, but I didn't opt for this as I don't consider our climate as >>>> extremely warm, and in winter the oild could actually get too cold. >>>> Has anyone tried both options, and did it make much difference? Also, >>>> did it have any influence over the water temperature? Relocating the >>>> oil >>>> radiator will be a large project, and I fear that after that I will >>>> still have to limit my climb outs to avoid the water from boiling. >>>> >>>> Yesterday on the airfield I took a closer look at the Rotax 914 >>>> equipped >>>> Dimona, which is used by the glider club to tow all day long gliders, >>>> with full power at 50 knots, in all ambient temperatures. They never >>>> have cooling problems. >>>> >>>> What I saw was shocking. The water radiator is fully exposed to the >>>> airstream, no diffuser whatsoever, it is just part of the cowling, >>>> as if >>>> someone took out some skin of the cowling and fitted the radiator in >>>> the >>>> resulting hole. The oil radiator is mounted in an angle behind a naca >>>> duct (I was taught that a naca duct does not provide ram air and >>>> shouldn't be used for cooling a radiator?). Both radiators just dump >>>> the >>>> warm air inside the cowling! It can't be easier than that. >>>> Then, at the bottom, the Dimona has a cowl flap which just opens the >>>> cowling to dump *all* air overboard. If it is closed, all radiators, >>>> as >>>> well as all cowling ventilation, is blocked. >>>> How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system, >>>> while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well? >>>> >>>> Anyway. At the moment I'm grounded, can't fly like this, and after >>>> spending a week trying to improve things with zero effect, I'm out of >>>> options and I'm inclined to leave the airplane in the hangar and find >>>> another hobby. :-( >>>> >>>> Seriously, what should I do? >>>> >>>> Frans >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> 18:35:00 >> >> >> -- >> We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. >> >> The Professional version does not have this message >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 19:59:00 -- We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:06 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: propeller shaft alignment w/ cowl Gentlemen, As per previous posts, I'm installing a MPEFIed Sube derivative engine and have made my cowls from Alex Bowman's molds. I'm presently confronting an issue common to the stock engine installation and am looking for some counsel. I've adhered to the build manual w/ regard to P factor offset, and my prop shaft at the flange is spot on the fuselage centerline; however, it is about 1/4" high. I'm confident that I can lower it by adjusting the thin washer count at the intersection of engine mounting frame with the europa mounting frame. With the fuselage secure in its cradle and my smart level reading zero deg. at the port door sill, my reading of the vertical face of the prop flange is 89.9 to 90.0 deg., depending on the weather, or time of day (who knows?). I've noted the caution in the manual to ensure that the plane of the prop flange is 90 deg. to the waterline. And I'm aware that raising the prop flange to center it within the cowl prop opening will affect its verticality...perhaps by as much as 0.2 degrees. As a matter of superficial aesthetics, I'd like to center everything up...at the same time, I'm leery of conceding that the plane of the prop flange will be "off" by this amount...so my questions are: - Would 0.2 degrees off from true vertical of the plane of the prop flange be within acceptable limits?, and, - Would anyone comment on their experiences in addressing this issue? One of my mantras has been, "I can only strive to achieve perfection"...that's fine enough overall, but I'm sure there are individual aspects of our build where perfection is both achievable and mandatory. Fred ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:17 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Arplast PV50 propellor From: "David Corbett" Has anyone in UK got a spare new electric motor for a PV50? If so, please contact me off line, or 07970 292936. Thanks, David G-BZAM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:24 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: propeller shaft alignment w/ cowl Fred, When doing the landing gear frame mods, I had trouble getting the spinner to align with the cowl on two aircraft and I fudged the elevations of the engine a bit to make it look pretty (well better). No difference in anything I could feel flying. I think the farthest off was my own at about 1 degree off vertical, but when laying the level across the head bolt studs it was within .2 or .3. I think my digital level is not as accurate in the vertical mode. For what it's worth. We measure with a micrometer, mark with a grease pencil and cut it with a hack saw and grind to fit. There will be variances. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:16 PM Subject: Europa-List: propeller shaft alignment w/ cowl > Gentlemen, As per previous posts, I'm installing a MPEFIed Sube derivative engine and have made my cowls from Alex Bowman's molds. I'm presently confronting an issue common to the stock engine installation and am looking for some counsel. I've adhered to the build manual w/ regard to P factor offset, and my prop shaft at the flange is spot on the fuselage centerline; however, it is about 1/4" high. I'm confident that I can lower it by adjusting the thin washer count at the intersection of engine mounting frame with the europa mounting frame. With the fuselage secure in its cradle and my smart level reading zero deg. at the port door sill, my reading of the vertical face of the prop flange is 89.9 to 90.0 deg., depending on the weather, or time of day (who knows?). I've noted the caution in the manual to ensure that the plane of the prop flange is 90 deg. to the waterline. And I'm aware that raising the prop flange to center it within the cowl prop opening will affect its verticality...perhaps by as much as 0.2 degrees. As a matter of superficial aesthetics, I'd like to center everything up...at the same time, I'm leery of conceding that the plane of the prop flange will be "off" by this amount...so my questions are: - Would 0.2 degrees off from true vertical of the plane of the prop flange be within acceptable limits?, and, - Would anyone comment on their experiences in addressing this issue? One of my mantras has been, "I can only strive to achieve perfection"...that's fine enough overall, but I'm sure there are individual aspects of our build where perfection is both achievable and mandatory. Fred http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:23 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: propeller shaft alignment w/ cowl On Jul 18, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > For what it's worth. We measure with a micrometer, mark with a > grease pencil and cut it with a hack saw and grind to fit. There > will be variances. Bud...reminds me of a builder's preferred remodeling spec from an architect, "hammer to fit, paint to match". Fred do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:43 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz Never mind, we hope to be visiting Australia on a more frequent basis so maybe on a future trip perhaps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JR Gowing" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:00 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz > > > Sorry Carl > We are too far south near Vic Border. > JR (Bob) Gowing Kit 327 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Pattinson" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:58 AM > Subject: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz > > >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> Calling all Europaphiles down under - thats Australia (or is the UK down >> under - relatively speaking). >> >> We are visiting our daughter near Brisbane at the end of August this year >> (Caloundra) . It would be great to meet up with any local builders/ >> flyers >> in the area and share a beer. >> >> Drop us a line - carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk >> >> Carl & Dot Pattinson >> G-LABS (Classic mono) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 18:35:00 > > > -- > We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. > > The Professional version does not have this message > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:46 PM PST US From: "JR Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz Carl We will see what happens........... JR do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:57 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz > > > Never mind, we hope to be visiting Australia on a more frequent basis so > maybe on a future trip perhaps. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JR Gowing" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:00 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz > > >> >> >> Sorry Carl >> We are too far south near Vic Border. >> JR (Bob) Gowing Kit 327 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Carl Pattinson" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:58 AM >> Subject: Europa-List: Europaphiles in Oz >> >> >>> >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Calling all Europaphiles down under - thats Australia (or is the UK down >>> under - relatively speaking). >>> >>> We are visiting our daughter near Brisbane at the end of August this >>> year >>> (Caloundra) . It would be great to meet up with any local builders/ >>> flyers >>> in the area and share a beer. >>> >>> Drop us a line - carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk >>> >>> Carl & Dot Pattinson >>> G-LABS (Classic mono) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> 18:35:00 >> >> >> -- >> We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. >> >> The Professional version does not have this message >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 18:35:00 -- We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. 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