---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/22/10: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:13 AM - Re : Travel Tool Kit (John Wigney) 2. 01:54 PM - Re: ELSA saga continues (Bud Yerly) 3. 04:09 PM - Re: ELSA saga continues (Fred Klein) 4. 05:04 PM - Welding Cable, again (Tony Renshaw) 5. 06:05 PM - Re: Welding Cable, again (Rob Housman) 6. 08:23 PM - Re: Welding Cable, again (Paul McAllister) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:10 AM PST US From: John Wigney Subject: Re : Europa-List: Travel Tool Kit Hi Troy, Glad to hear that things are going well. My monowheel check list includes the following:- * Multi tip screwdriver * Inexpensive metric and inch sockets and ratchet handle (e.g. Harbor Freight supply) * Spark plug wrench * Metric Allen wrenches * Small adjustable wrench * Bag with common sizes of washers, bolts, screws, nuts, etc. * Needle nose pliers. * Tape & scissors. * 1 quart oil * Small bottle of NPG+ coolant * Spark plugs * Decalin fuel additive - http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/Decalin.php (I always use 100LL) * Tow line for the tailwheel * Tie downs * Rotax voltage regulator (~200 hours life at best?) * Jacking block * Spare inner tube - Wicks Aircraft item # TB-MTAT8X6, this fits 8.00-6 & 7.00-6 tires. My tire is a 7.00-6, 6 ply. * ?? I hope you can drag your plane into the air when you put it all on board. Just kidding - never a problem. Cheers, John N262WF Mooresville, North Carolina (To Oshkosh attendees - I plan to arrive at OSH Home Built Camping on Wednesday.) ORIGINAL MESSAGE From: "Troy Maynor" Subject: Europa-List: Travel Tool Kit Hi Fellow Europaphiles, Has anyone come up with a list of must have tools, (and parts for that matter) to always have in the plane in case of trouble far from home? I know you need tools to get the cowling off and stuff like that. What I'm saying I guess is I don't need the entire set of hex socket wrenches, or the entire set of combination wrenches, I just want to pick out the specific sizes needed for a small kit that would be appropriate for someone with a monowheel with a Rotax 912. I could probably come up with a list but I'd appreciate any input for things that have gotten someone out of a jam in the past. I understand that some carry a spare tube for the monowheel tire. Where is the best place to get one, ACS? What about a wooden jacking block to fit a common floor jack to the LG frame? I don't won't to get carried away with a bunch of stuff that will overload me but just fishing for ideas really. Thanks in advance to all. Troy Maynor Monowheel Classic 120 37 hours ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:55 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: ELSA saga continues Fred, Background, 12AY started as Marvin Alverez's aircraft 139AB, fixed pitch Classic Trigear. I bought it to use as a test bed, but I had to rebuild so much of it, replace wings, gut the fuselage to fix the gear, wing incidence problems required a full redo of the cockpit sides, pulled the top and replaced, pull out the pitch system, fuel tank and tail tube, rebuilt the stabs, rebuilt the foam fin, replaced the doors and converted the engine mount and cowl for the XS, so it is now a new kit 054A and my FSDO allowed it as a new build. 800 hours in that sucker less paint and finish. The only thing original is the rudder hinges. Even the original rudder delaminated. Hell of a deal, but I am too picky I guess, anyone else would have just flown it as it did so, provided you didn't stall it. So, just prior to registration of my aircraft in Dec 2009 I did the following. I ran the conversion problems of the Europa Classic Kit by my FSDO, (many different answers from FSDOs and the FAA home office) and as the owner/builder, and since I am doing a modification by adding VGs within the phase one modifications ruling during the 40 hour fly off, I am establishing my aircraft as an Experimental Amateur Built LSA (EABLSA) through flight test (that controllable at 45 kts rule is tough with a short wing and my max continuous speed is 122). My new modifications made in the 40 hour fly off, satisfies that my intent was to make it an amateur built experimental LSA from the start and the plane needed tweaking. Logged it all in the book for sure. I have not lost my medical, I'm doing this to give you guys who haven't finished your aircraft an opportunity to work within the rules and continue to finish your aircraft as an Experimental Amateur Built LSA if you have lost your medical. Fred, your ELSA assumption is correct! The rules suck. I have test flown and established that my aircraft meets EABLSA rules. Should I now make changes which removes the plane out of EABLSA, it can never be an LSA again according to the FAA maintenance guys! Here is the rub, my 12AY will also be used to test the new AP420 constant speed and that will not make it eligible for LSA unless I lie about it and never log the conversions. I'm not keen on that. The prop change is considered by the maintenance guys as a major modification and requires another log book entry and a mother may I from the FSDO. My FSDO disagrees, but it is looking that will be overruled by the maintenance guys at FAA under the LSA . The Registration of my aircraft, and my airworthiness certificate does not note the plane has a constant speed prop or not on an airworthiness certificate on a Tri-gear Experimental Amateur Built aircraft that just happens to meet LSA criteria. It is confusing. Technically, because of the rules that the LSA qualified plane "continuously" has met the LSA criteria , although I can pull the fixed pitch prop and VGs off, put on another prop, take it off again, put the VGs and fixed prop back on and tweak my flap (my wing area is a bit less than the XS at only 96 square feet so I have to do that on my plane) I have removed it from LSA criteria by changing the prop and or pull my VGs. To all, I talked with Larry Buchannan and Edsel Ford at the FAA (LSA division) and Brad Outlaw of the DAR area (he is the guy who helped me with the proper way to convert to the MG) and they agree that this flight test method I am using is allowable within the LSA and Experimental rules. As for modifying a flying a Classic, the problem is you get different answers. Suffice to say, if a plane was a mono wheel (a retractable gear aircraft) on its airworthiness certificate, never intended as an LSA or to meet it's criteria, it has not met the "continuous" use in the LSA criteria. FSDOs didn't mind the prop change (or gear during phase 1), but the maintenance division was adamant that it is a major modification, and the plane did not continuously meet the LSA criteria even if modified during the 40 hour phase 1. Granted the maintainers work in the certified world, the point is, the flying mono to trigear is a major modification (not just a minor mod which I prefer) and the plane was a complex aircraft and never intended nor did it meet the continuous LSA criteria (that's true). As I write this, the experimenters and maintainers are discussing that an experimental amateur built aircraft is not built with a manufacturers equipment list, so changing the prop, or other equipment even with another fixed prop is a bit of a rub. I tried to weasel my way into also allowing the flying classic mono-wheel to be converted and that is, according to the FAA regulations, illegal. I argued that the experimental plane is a continuous experiment and actually rarely does the owner call it truly completed. The experimenters know what I mean, we are always tweaking equipment, engine, props, fuel system, drag devices etc. Once Phase 1 is completed, the plane, according to the maintainers is technically set in stone, FSDOs know better and don't want to be bothered by all the little stuff we do, and prefer to only know about major changes such as gear and wings. LSA criteria though is set in stone ( but it is not necessarily solid). The only win I had was with the vortex generators. They are not lift augmenting devices and as such do not fall under the major modification changes and can be added. Please don't fudge your log books (for those of you who have them and or failed to make the Phase 1 complete write up) to try to do this. It is not worth it. This LSA conversion I am doing to the Europa kit is allowable, provided the owner never registered the plane at a gross weight that exceeds 1320 lbs and you make it meet the LSA criteria. Hell, there are guys flying RV9s as LSAs. That's not right, as if he ever fills the tanks full with two people (170 lbs each), it is no longer an LSA (to the purist), but it meets the criteria. Final advice to Europa Owners, Conversion of a flying mono or trigear classic to Experimental Amateur Built Light Sport Aircraft is not possible. Even the Tri-gear didn't continuously meet the criteria and is prohibited. This also brings up what is the proper way to do a MG conversion (and it provides an example for the FAA to work with to give the FSDOs ). Example I used with the FAA: Europa Classic trigear registered at 1320lbs. Builder contacts his DAR and says I am attempting to fly my aircraft as an LSA come and give me an airworthiness inspection. Initial stall speed in tests of 49 KTS observed. Owner/manufacturer modifies to meet LSA and adds vortex generators etc and meets the basic LSA criteria. Completes his fly off and the aircraft must stay an LSA always. Now, let's say I want to add MG wings, I cannot add MG wings and fly then go back to LSA because the aircraft was not continuously flown in the LSA criteria. For you MG guys, How do you convert properly your XS or Classic to a MG. Owner contacts his FSDO and says I am adding MG wings to my Europa XS/Classic. He requests: I will need my original test fly area (or new one if you moved) to be approved for an additional Phase 1 fly off of the new wings. I will test fly the aircraft for 10 hours minimum, or as required, to confirm the wings are safe and meet the kit plane manufacturers criteria. Owner/manufacturer builds his wings. FSDO may simply allow you to do this on your own, and go fly, or he may, if you made him mad, require a DAR to look at the wings before flight and check your weight and balance... Owner records his changes and performs a weight and balance. Flight test the wings under the Phase 1 approval above. Your FSDO, if he is a purist, adds notes that the aircraft airworthiness certificate with long wings is an experimental glider, and with the short wings is an experimental airplane. Personal note: I prefer the motor glider to an LSA. I have a better cruising speed and a safer plane in my estimation, and do not need a medical at all. Paperwork is minimal and is a known quantity. Working with the FAA is a breeze. Also, the VGs are quite a good safety device and do lower the stall speed a couple of knots and improve low speed handling without causing a significant reduction in airspeed. Watch out though because it flies so well, it is easy to get slow. Now to decide on the prop... It seems that if I never complete phase 1 I can change props as I may become a glider, and if it is not recorded, (after all my intentions are good, I only strayed a short time) I may be able to get away with this. I need a lawyer, and a sympathetic jury. Much info and miss info out there, even from me and your FSDO and now you know where I am coming from, why I am test flying an pushing. I missed two hours of work, got'ta get back. Bud References: Title 14 FAA Part 1 1.1 abbreviations Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following: (1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than- (i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or (ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level. (3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider. (4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity. (5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot. (6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered. (7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider. (8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider. (9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane. (10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin. (11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider. (12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: ELSA On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Bud Yerly wrote: If you are a weight zealot, the XS should be eligible provided you have not already registered it's gross weight as over 1320. Darn those rules. Bud, Thanks for the comprehensive background on making an XS into an ELSA...I take it that N12AY is Clive's airplane. So here's a question: ...suppose one registers his XS mono w/ a FP prop and with a gross weight of 1320 as an experimental...then, later...takes it back to the shop, converts it to a fixed tri or conventional gear (w/ dirty, grimy wheel pants), adds the VGs to further slow it down, and does the requisite flight tests to show the plane's within the LSA envelope... Can it them become an ELSA? Can you recommend an FAA contact to run this by, if you'd rather not speculate? Thanks, Fred http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:37 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: ELSA saga continues On Jul 22, 2010, at 1:53 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > I argued that the experimental plane is a continuous experiment Bud...couldn't agree w/ you more... As for the rest of your post, let me take a moment and acknowledge you for what you bring to the Europa community...what you do is way beyond the scope and responsibility of a company rep...and I want you to know how much I appreciate what you do and your willingness to share it with everyone. The process you describe regarding how our birds may be able to be shoe-horned into the LSA is valuable information...it goes in my special "Bud's Wisdom" file. I can only guess at the time you've devoted to this subject...but I do know how long it takes me to put together a concise but comprehensive letter on a given subject, so I thank you again for your efforts on my behalf. See ya at RR, Fred ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:34 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Welding Cable, again Gidday, I'm trying to plan my electrical run from a rear mounted battery. I know that I can get #2 gauge wire to do the job, but having never seen it or used it, I have researched the list. It seems that welding wire is an option, recommended in fact by Bob Nuckolls for its workability. The fire retardant properties of the insulation are not great, but hey, a fire in a cockpit is going to kill you long before the fumes will. So, has anyone got experience using the welding cables, and any specific advice regarding which type to get etc. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie........home building, of sorts ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:49 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Welding Cable, again I cannot comment on the welding wire (although I definitely accept Bob K's advice on this) but I can comment on the wire size you are considering. The Europa factory wiring harness uses #4 AWG wire, stranded but not very flexible, for the rear mounted battery. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:06 PM Subject: Europa-List: Welding Cable, again --> Gidday, I'm trying to plan my electrical run from a rear mounted battery. I know that I can get #2 gauge wire to do the job, but having never seen it or used it, I have researched the list. It seems that welding wire is an option, recommended in fact by Bob Nuckolls for its workability. The fire retardant properties of the insulation are not great, but hey, a fire in a cockpit is going to kill you long before the fumes will. So, has anyone got experience using the welding cables, and any specific advice regarding which type to get etc. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie........home building, of sorts ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Welding Cable, again From: Paul McAllister Tony, You need #4 cable. Welding cable is easy to work with but it weighs a bunch. As part of my recent work on my aircraft I used CCA cable from http://periheliondesign.com/. I took out 2 lbs Paul On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Rob Housman wrote: > > I cannot comment on the welding wire (although I definitely accept Bob K's > advice on this) but I can comment on the wire size you are considering. > The Europa factory wiring harness uses #4 AWG wire, stranded but not very > flexible, for the rear mounted battery. > > > Best regards, > > Rob Housman > Irvine, CA > Europa XS Tri-Gear > A070 > Airframe complete > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:06 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Welding Cable, again > > --> > > Gidday, > I'm trying to plan my electrical run from a rear mounted battery. I know > that I can get #2 gauge wire to do the job, but having never seen it or > used > it, I have researched the list. It seems that welding wire is an option, > recommended in fact by Bob Nuckolls for its workability. The fire retardant > properties of the insulation are not great, but hey, a fire in a cockpit is > going to kill you long before the fumes will. So, has anyone got experience > using the welding cables, and any specific advice regarding which type to > get etc. > Reg > Tony Renshaw > Sydney Aussie........home building, of sorts > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.