---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/04/10: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:12 AM - Re: SL30 Installation help (Frans Veldman) 2. 11:04 AM - Re: SL30 Installation help (Mike Parkin) 3. 12:22 PM - Re: SL30 Installation help (John Wighton) 4. 12:24 PM - Stall spin characteristics (Fergus Kyle) 5. 12:54 PM - Re: SL30 Installation help (Frans Veldman) 6. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: SL30 Installation help (Frans Veldman) 7. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: SL30 Installation help (Mike Parkin) 8. 03:49 PM - Re: Stall spin characteristics (Robert Borger) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:34 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: SL30 Installation help On 08/02/2010 12:20 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > I had my antenna mounted on the floor but I ended up relocating it to the > roof. While I found that the VOR and Localizer worked fine I seemed to have > trouble getting the Glideslope to work until I was with in a few NM of the > outer marker. It seems to work better on the roof for me. Keep in mind that the glidescope information is transmitted on a frequency that is very different than the VOR/LOC frequencies. It is recommended to use a splitter and a separate antenna for reception of the glidescope info. You might get away with just a VOR/LOC antenna, but this depends on the properties of the antenna. The antenna is deeply out of tune on the glidescope frequency, and in general, antenna's that have been reduced in size, have more problems with this and some are even effectively shorting out the glidescope frequencies. My dipole setup probably works better for this than any commercially available antenna. Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:03 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: SL30 Installation help Frans, >>It is recommended to use a splitter and a separate antenna for reception of >>the glidescope info. This statement is incorrect!!! The installation instructions for the SL30 recommends a single antenna installation. See SL30 Installation manual Page 16. I have dipole antenna mounted in the right wing... the ILS works fine. Regards, Mike Do not archive. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 15:22:00 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:00 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: SL30 Installation help From: "John Wighton" Thanks chaps, Garmin make a big thing about the advanced design of the SL30. Hopefully that is one of the reasons why most users seem to be able to use a single antenna. Some circles think that a splitter corrupts the signal - but that is conjecture! I have ordered the Bob Archer antenna and plane to fit it on the fuse floor. I dont currently have room for a CDI/HSI although the Dynon D10a can be configured to work in this way l think. Phase 2 of my avionics upgrade may include a separate CDI (this will involve removing the DI). This should then give PFD function for D10a and the Garmin can talk to the CDI directly. Otherwise l need a Dynon HS34 (but there is no space for it). I guess one only gets all the toys in the right places if you start with a clean sheet (panel) and then add . Thanks for all your help on this one. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307525#307525 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:28 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Stall spin characteristics William: ". It seems likely that Cliff Shaw's accident was a result of this abrupt spin stall characteristic in landing configuration. I have a rule (though not unique), "never skid a turn", keeping a nice margin above stall. It seems that the Europa (and probably all super clean planes, for instance the Cirrus), have a propensity to severe stall spin in landing configuration. " I am tempted to agree with much of what you say. It has been my contention that Oshkosh makles demands with which that many junior pilots shouldn't comply. One of these is a short final with multi bank when the authority calls for a wing-wag when inside rudder is correcting for runway centreline. There's the critical inside rudder/inside bank pair which prompts the inner wing stall. From there on down is mathematical. Know your plane, Cheers ferg Ps: Rudder OFF first before aileron.............. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:25 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: SL30 Installation help On 08/04/2010 07:01 PM, Mike Parkin wrote: > > > Frans, > >>> It is recommended to use a splitter and a separate antenna for >>> reception > of >>> the glidescope info. > > This statement is incorrect!!! The installation instructions for the > SL30 recommends a single antenna installation. I was not parotting a product manual, but explaining simple physics. The glidescope signal is transmitted somewhere around 330 MHz, while VOR/LOC is transmitted around 110 MHz. A quarter wavelength antenna for 110 MHz is simply far too long for 330 MHz, it is then acting as a 3/4 wave antenna, which has no impedance of 50 ohms, the impedance the coax cable is designed for. Losses are huge if you try to implement it this way, and no product manual can change this simple fact of physics. IF you go this route, a lot depends on the actual antenna configuration and lentgh of the cable, cable routing, and so forth. (With a 50 ohms impedance the length and routing of the cable doesn't matter, but with a huge mismatch cutting a centimeter of a cable can make a significant difference) For the average homebuilder without measuring equipment it is a matter of simple luck and trial and error... or one can go the safe route and install a splitter and an antenna which is optimized for 330 MHz and outputs a nice 50 ohms impedance at this frequency. Pick your choice. Complaints about the SL-30 manual should be directed to Garmin, not to me. ;-) Said this, I revert to my original statement that a simple dipole most likely offers more signal at this mismatched 330 MHz frequency than some fancy commercial antenna specifically built for 110 MHz. In my setup this works well, but again, it IS a mismatch and the result is probably hard do duplicate because it is dependant on cable length and other hard to determine properties. Relocating the antenna can make a difference, if not just only for a different cable routing and length. If I had to fly IFR and my life would be depending on proper signal reception, I would for sure use a dedicated 330 MHz antenna and a splitter. Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:29 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: SL30 Installation help On 08/04/2010 09:20 PM, John Wighton wrote: > Thanks chaps, Garmin make a big thing about the advanced design of > the SL30. Hopefully that is one of the reasons why most users seem > to be able to use a single antenna. No, it is not. The receiver has nothing to do with it. If you want to receive two frequencies spaced that far apart, you need two antenna's, or suffer huge losses due to cable mismatches. > I have ordered the Bob Archer antenna and plane to fit it on the fuse > floor. I suspect that the Bob Archer antenna is specifically designed for reception of VHF signals (VOR & LOC), and performs poor (if at all) around 330 MHz (The frequency of the glide scope) It may well simply act as a short cut for these frequencies. If you want to go this route, ask the manufacturer how the antenna performs for 330 MHz signals. It might well be that he objects about using the antenna for this purpose. Good luck and let us know how it works out. Frans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:09 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: SL30 Installation help Frans, I would be the last to argue the technicalities of antenna losses with you. However, what I do recognise is a useable ILS Glideslope when I see one. My antenna is the standard copper tape type fitted under the fibre glass skin, I have tried the ILS system on quite a few occasions now and it works fine. It is true that the system is probably not up to certification standards, but I consider it a possible life saver. Regards, Mike Do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:49:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stall spin characteristics From: Robert Borger Fred, I don't remember exactly what I set the tire pressure, but I remember that it was at the low end of the recommended pressure. It's set soft for hard surfaces. If set hi on hard surfaces it bounces like a basket ball and is a real pain to land. If you are landing on turn, it's not too bad that way. Still, i prefer soft tire on either surface. The outrigger length is what was provided by the factory. One outrigger is about an inch off the ground when the other is on the ground. I have not had it full loaded but is possible that both outriggers could be on the ground when fully loaded. Yes, it rocks back and forth when taxiing but not very much. The rocking is affected by turns and by wind. The only time I find it disconcerting is on takeoff. That can be fixed by making sure you have aileron into the wind when you start to advance the throttle. Just help pin the up-wind outrigger to the ground till airborne. Hope this helps, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232 http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046 Europa Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Aug 3, 2010, at 22:00, Fred Klein wrote: > > > On Aug 3, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Robert Borger wrote: > >> If you are completing a Europa monowheel, get some dual from someone with monowheel experience. It's a whole 'nother cat. > > Bob, > > ...jus curious...what is your tire pressure?...and, are your outrigger rod lengths such that, when your plane sits on level pavement with fuel but nobody onboard, your outrigger wheels touch the pavement?...or is there some side-to-side rocking? > > Fred > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.