---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/13/10: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:40 AM - Re: Tail wheel control cables attachment (Mike Parkin) 2. 12:44 AM - Re: Tail wheel control cables attachment (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 3. 01:14 AM - Re: Tail wheel control cables attachment (Robert C Harrison) 4. 02:21 AM - ELT mount for free, anyone? (Frans Veldman) 5. 02:40 AM - Tail wheel control cables attachment (Justin Kennedy) 6. 09:33 AM - Re: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (rampil) 7. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (Frans Veldman) 8. 11:50 AM - Re: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (rampil) 9. 12:48 PM - Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (Guerner Remi) 10. 01:02 PM - FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (Guerner Remi) 11. 01:12 PM - Tail wheel control cables attachment (Guerner Remi) 12. 01:26 PM - Re: Re: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (Frans Veldman) 13. 01:27 PM - TIAS 2010 w Europa (Raimo Toivio) 14. 01:40 PM - Re: FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (Frans Veldman) 15. 01:44 PM - Tail wheel control cables attachment (Guerner Remi) 16. 02:09 PM - Re: FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (Fred Klein) 17. 02:38 PM - Re: FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (Frans Veldman) 18. 03:20 PM - Re: FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 19. 04:26 PM - Re: Tail wheel control cables attachment (Fred Klein) 20. 04:36 PM - Re: Tail wheel control cables attachment (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 21. 10:20 PM - Re: Tail wheel control cables attachment (rparigoris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:32 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tail wheel control cables attachment I used these screw shackles as a replacement. More than enough strength and not too expensive. See http://www.s3i.co.uk/rapide_link_standard.php Regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:23 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel control cables attachment Bob's right. This has been a common problem over the years. Use the AN115 =0Ashackles.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom : Robert Borger =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 12 September, 2010 23:58:21=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel rger =0A=0ARemi,=0A=0ALoose the clips! Replace them with AN115 Cable Shackles, Clevis Pins and a =0ACotter Pins (split pin).=0A=0Ah ttp://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/an115.php=0Ahttp://www.aircraf tspruce.com/catalog/hapages/clevispins.php=0Ahttp://www.aircraftspruce.com/ catalog/hapages/cotterpins.php=0A=0ACheck six,=0ABob Borger=0Ahttp://www.eu ropaowners.org/N914XL=0AEuropa XS, Short Wing, Intercooled Rotax 914=0Arlbo rger@mac.com=0ACel: 817-992-1117=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sep 12, 2010, at 12:18 PM , Guerner Remi wrote:=0A=0A> Hi all monowheel drivers,=0A> =0A> After landi ng on a mountain strip today I noticed I had some trouble =0A>controlling t he aircraft on roll out and tight turning on the parking. The next =0A>lan ding on another altiport was uneventful but again I had trouble tight turni ng =0A>to the parking spot.=0A> During the preflight check for the return f light, this is what I found: the =0A>starboard ring attaching the cable of the tailwheel fork was open and was barely =0A>insuring a very loose conne ction. See attached picture.=0A> I am afraid that if that ring had become f ully disconnected, I would have =0A>crashed into the wall of rocks on the l eft side of that runway!=0A> Lesson learned: check that tailwheel control c ables carefully before EVERY =0A>takeoff.=0A> Of course I am thinking at so me solution to insure a safer connection of those =0A>cables.=0A> =0A> Remi ======= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:21 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tail wheel control cables attachment Hi! Mike ....we will miss you Regards Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 13 September 2010 08:37 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tail wheel control cables attachment I used these screw shackles as a replacement. More than enough strength and not too expensive. See http://www.s3i.co.uk/rapide_link_standard.php Regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:50 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: ELT mount for free, anyone? I just replaced my ELT by a PLB, now this is allowed in the Netherlands. (PM me if you want to know more, only one specific brand of PLB is acceptable as an ELT replacement). The ELT mount I took out is available if anyone is interested. The mount was made for an Artex ME406 (but any other ELT will fit), it is an aluminium construction that fits just behind the D-panel on the starboard side, so the ELT is level with the D-opening for easy access. The mount carries also the antenna, and the mount itself is tuned as a ground plane for the antenna. It is light weight but designed to withstand at least a survivable crash. It has two horizontal legs in a V which are attached against the rear of the D-panel, one vertical support leg to the floor, and one long perforated strip reaching about 3 feet into the tail, for taking up decelleration forces and its length is carefully tuned so it acts as a ground plane radial for the antenna at the same time. Available for free. I can take it with me to the Texel fly in, but I'm also willing to ship it if you care for the shipping costs. If no-one is interested I will bore out the anchor nuts and scrap the rest. Frans ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:23 AM PST US From: Justin Kennedy Subject: Europa-List: Tail wheel control cables attachment Hi Guys, Just a wee note on the Single carb operation. I have a 912S in my monowheel and had an experience which may shed a little light in this. I was opening up to take off after a successful run up check and the engine would only give me 4000 RPM instead of the minimum of 5500 RPM I was expec ting. It also sounded a bit rough. I aborted the take off and started the search for the problem. To cut a lon g story short a crescent shaped piece of rubber from fuel hose about 4 mm l ong had blocked the port carburettor main jet completely. I removed the main jet and tried to pass fuel through it and it was complet ely blocked. Thus I can say that a Rotax 912s will give 4000 rpm on the starboard carb o nly. I am sure it was not doing the engine much good and but I guess it wo uld have provided enough power to get me out of trouble. Good to see so many of you at Sywell. Safe flying Justin Justin Kennedy G-ZTED Europa Clasic Monowhell Rotax 912s Airmaster prop with Warp Drive bl ades. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:17 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. From: "rampil" Hi Frans, I looked at that referenced Italian site for FlyGas. They gave no indication that their mod had been operationally tested in any way as of this data (Sep 13, 2010) Their cross tube looks to be about an inch +/- in diameter. At about a foot long, my back of napkin estimate is that there would be quite a pressure drop across that tube at WOT, causing an imbalance in MP across the engine. Looks doubtful to reduce carb imbalance vibration on that basis, but will likely cause an RPM related imbalance of its own which would not be adjustable. Before we jump on another bandwagon lets see some actual operational data, preferably with an accelerometer quantifying vibration. Cheers, Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312294#312294 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:12 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. On 09/13/2010 06:30 PM, rampil wrote: > Their cross tube looks to be about an inch +/- in diameter. At about > a foot long, my back of napkin estimate is that there would be quite > a pressure drop across that tube at WOT, Pressure drop? Both halves of the engine carry the same manifold pressure. If there is no inbalance, the air inside the cross tube is more or less static, although it will cancel out the intake pulses, so the air will be thrown left and right but never actually leave the tube. This is a good thing by itself, because it will soften the intake pulses. This will even out the mixture between the front and rear cylinder. Let me explain this further: I guess everyone knows that the front cylinders of a Rotax get a different mixture than the rear cylinders. Some people think it has something to do with the distance to the carbs. Wrong. The reason is that the Rotax fires two cylinders at each side, and then fires the cylinders on the other side. So at each engine halve, you will find two intake cycles, and then nothing for a while (during this time the other cylinders on the opposite engine half have their intake cycles. This means that the airflow in one carb has to accelerate at the first intake cycle, and when that intake valve closes, the other cylinder has its intake cycle. This cylinder benefits from the air already at speed through the carb. All this has to do with inertia. For the first cylinder, apart from the fact that is has the task to accelerate the mixture after it came to a halt during the pause, the acceleration of the fuel is lower than the acceleration of the air. So the first cylinder at each engine halve gets a leaner mixture than the one that is to fire just after it. So, the idea of a balance tube is to keep the air up to speed, because both engine halves have the same problem, but at alternating moments. Balance tubes are common things in cars, both for the intake as well as for the exhaust. But usually they have a much larger diameter. But all this has nothing to do with carb imbalances, this is just an additional advantage. So, let's go back to the claim that this larger cross tube makes imbalances less obvious: > Looks doubtful to reduce carb imbalance > vibration on that basis, Never took the small balance tube away (for pneumatic carb balancing)? Without the tube, imbalances become more obvious. Put the tube in, and some of the imbalance is gone, because the tube allows some of the mixture from the higher manifold pressure side to flow to the lower manifold pressure side. Put even more tube in (i.e. a larger diameter) and more mixture can flow through it, making the difference in MAP between both halves even less, and thus lessening the imbalance. > Before we jump on another bandwagon lets see some actual operational > data, preferably with an accelerometer quantifying vibration. Fine, if there is such data. If there isn't, we'll have to revert to basic physics and engine knowledge. I might install a larger cross tube some day (not for the cross tube actually, but for the option to fit fuel injectors), and I will let you know what I find. Frans ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:25 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. From: "rampil" Hi Frans, I mentioned the cross tube since you had mentioned the failure of a carb and that both sides could be fed through the single carb and the"fat" cross tube. Outside that scenario, there should normally be little flow and resistive drop. I am not sure what a cross tube does to "soften" the incoming air pulses. The flow rate is mainly determined by the linear speed profile and the fixed surface area of the downgoing piston with the major flow restriction at the intake valve orifice. The extra compliance of the cross tube is probably only a small increment to the supply through the carb unless the butterfly is nearly closed. Sadly there is no public detailed spec on the Rotax 9xx series, but I do try to relate its operation from what I learned from Charles Taylor, John Heywood, and Will Pulkrabek's books. For most pilots wanting to learn a bit more about their engines (I.e., Lycosaurus types), John Schwaner's Engineering Manual is great! Full of easy to read facts, not conjecture or rumor from a very experienced A&P. (www.sacskyranch.com) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312300#312300 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:05 PM PST US From: Guerner Remi Subject: Europa-List: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. Thank you Jerry, that is nice to know! Remi <<<<< and the engine ran very rough but I kept enough power and kept it running to get it safely to an airport. That's one of the reasons I love that engine it kept on going with one carb, basically half an engine. >>>> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:40 PM PST US From: Guerner Remi Subject: Europa-List: FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. Hi Frans, Looks like an interesting modification. But I am wondering if there is any inconvenience with this system. If not, why did Rotax design the engine manifolds with a small balance tube? Remi <<<>>>>>> ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:16 PM PST US From: Guerner Remi Subject: Europa-List: Tail wheel control cables attachment Thanks to those who have made suggestions for the replacement of the clips. I like the Shackles + Clevis Pins solution. Attached are two pictures of my temporary fix. Regards Remi ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:03 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. On 09/13/2010 08:47 PM, rampil wrote: > I am not sure what a cross tube does to "soften" the incoming air pulses. Ok, I will try to explain some more. The firing order of the Rotax is 1-4-2-3. The intake order is of course similar. Now, let's see what happens. For ease of explanation, we will start with cylinder 4. The order we will follow is thus 4-2-3-1. Intake of #4 opens. Air starts to accelerate through the carb. At the moment #4 closes, intake #2 opens. This cylinder is on the same carb as #4. The air is already up to speed through the carb, it only has to take the next exit. Intake #2 closes. As on this side of the engine there are no more intakes, and we now have to wait for the two cylinders on the other side of the engine to complete their intake cycle, the air comes to a screaching halt. There is nowhere to go for the air, all intakes on this side are closed! At the same time #2 closes, intake #3 opens. This one is on the other carb. The air has been come to a stop there, because while the engine was working on #4 and #2, this carb had no throughput at all. So intake #3 has the task to start accelerating the air. When #3 closes, #1 opens, same bank, so the air can just go through. And when #1 closes, this bank is done, air comes to a stop, and we switch over to intake #4. The whole cycle repeats itself here. Ok, now with the balance tube. This will fit in between previous paragraphs. At the moment intake #2 closes, there are no open intakes on that side anymore. The air however is at speed, and due to inertia the air wants to keep going. (keep in mind that the engine runs at 5000 rpm, and at this speed, inertia of the gasses plays a significant role). Luckily there is a balance tube, and the air still rushing through the carb (remember, there is a whole column of air up to speed from the airbox that doesn't know that intake #2 just closed) takes the only exit remaining: the balance tube. At the moment intake #2 closed, intake #3 opens. This one is at the other side. Luckily, there is just a bunch of air arriving through the balance tube! This air fills up the gap, at the moment the air through the carb of #3 has to start moving. Of course the flow through the balance tube doesn't last very long, but at the moment it ceases, the column of air through its own carb has just accelerated enough to take over. This is of course a simplified explanation, you'd better think of all this as pressure waves. To complicate things further, the column of air rushing in that finds all doors shut, bounces back. This backwards pressure wave interferes a moment later with the start of a new inlet cycle. So, this is what a balance tube is for. Maintaning a smooth air stream is more efficient and is easier on the carbs. Usually this translates in more power, and a more even distribution of density and mixture. Unfortunately, the balance tube of the Rotax is very small, and probably doesn't do much at WOT. Frans ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:16 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Europa-List: TIAS 2010 w Europa Hi We had a nice airshow (Tampere International Airshow) 14-15th 2010 of August here in Tampere EFTP. Check http://www.tampereairshow.fi/en/start During that wonderful sunny weekend there were 30.000 visitors. Most loved were Midnight Hawks (4x Bae Hawks with very tight formation by Finnish Airforce) and F-16 Solo Team (by Royal Netherlands Airforce). Of course Mustang was great as usually (unfortunately pilot Bertil Gerhardt got killed in a crash in Norway just a week after the show) as was Closter Gauntlet (only one in the world) and Fouga Magister with DC3. Our tent - The Europa hangar - is beside the main ground exhibition area. Europa OH-XRT was pulled out and there was a sign which told My Europa=B4s story. Me or some of my friend was always there trying to give answers for thousands of questions people made during that show. *** Some of you may remember: I got married just 10 years ago 15th of August 2000. I had just finalized my rudder and tailplanes and got a wonderful wife to help me to build the rest of the plane. Rest is history: we got two daughters and a flying plane. When the Airshow was almost finalized our 10th Wedding Days were started! That was a wonderful time...much of good friends and relatives, tasty food and cool drinks and some show time also. We got some "surprise visitors" like Finnish Airforce with around 30 pilots. Their present was a VERY low by pass performed by a new Casa 295-M transport plane and an invite to their base in EFKA. Also RNLAF visited us - look at the attached pic and also http://www.f16demoteam.nl/F16/image/news2010/fin2010-001.jpg Those boys really liked our Samba Girls! It was a magic way to have a family festival surrounded all that avion theme. Terveisin, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 +180 hrs 37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4 FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio@fly.to www.rwm.fi ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:58 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. On 09/13/2010 09:55 PM, Guerner Remi wrote: > Looks like an interesting modification. But I am wondering if there is > any inconvenience with this system. If not, why did Rotax design the > engine manifolds with a small balance tube? Looks like a question that fits into the same category as some other questions: 1) Why is the carb attached to a flange that often ruptures and we have to inspect regularly? Why don't they fix it? On how many cars do the carbs once in a while just fall off? 2) Why did Rotax not install a carb heater on the 912? 3) Why does Rotax still sell a voltage regulator which is not up to its task? 4) Why is the TCU data cable a RS232 and not an USB, and do I have to find a DOS computer to read out the engine parameters? Why can't they write a decent program for their clients who pay a lot of money for this engine? 5) Why did Rotax not install a billet pump on the 914, and forces us to rely on two electrical fuel pumps instead? 6) Why do I need to manually disconnect the wastegate servo in case the system starts surging, and is the TCU unable to recognize and solve the problem on its own? How many cars exhibit this behaviour? Etc. Of course, Rotax may have had a reason for this one. But then again, they might have not. The whole balance tube looks as an afterthought, something they came up with after the design was ready and the molds for the intake manifold where already done. So there we have it, way too small, floating in the air, and it gave them a good opportunity to attach two springs to it to prevent the carb from falling off when the famous flange ruptures. Who knows? Frans ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:54 PM PST US From: Guerner Remi Subject: Europa-List: Tail wheel control cables attachment Hi Ron, Thank you for your suggestions. However, having no tail wheel stop is not good. While pushing your aircraft backwards, the tailwheel will turn 180 degrees or more and your rigid turnbuckles will be dangerously damaged. Same thing may happen when landing in a crosswind with the rudder (and therefore the tailwheel) deflected. When contacting the ground, the tailwheel is violently pushed to the opposite position and again your turnbuckle may be damaged . The Singleton stop is a lot better than the original XS stop (a rolled pin which breaks after a few dozens landings), but as I saw several Singleton stops damaged by the beating they take, I designed a stronger copy (see attached picture). Regards Remi <<<<**I ripped off Grahams aluminium tailwheel stop **I incorporated turnbuckles on tailwheel drive, one side with an eye and the other with a clevis>>>>>>> ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:00 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. On Sep 13, 2010, at 1:36 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > 1) Why is the carb attached to a flange that often ruptures and we > have > to inspect regularly? Why don't they fix it? On how many cars do the > carbs once in a while just fall off? > 2) Why did Rotax not install a carb heater on the 912? > 3) Why does Rotax still sell a voltage regulator which is not up to > its > task? > 4) Why is the TCU data cable a RS232 and not an USB, and do I have to > find a DOS computer to read out the engine parameters? Why can't they > write a decent program for their clients who pay a lot of money for > this > engine? > 5) Why did Rotax not install a billet pump on the 914, and forces us > to > rely on two electrical fuel pumps instead? > 6) Why do I need to manually disconnect the wastegate servo in case > the > system starts surging, and is the TCU unable to recognize and solve > the > problem on its own? How many cars exhibit this behaviour? > > Etc. Frans...All excellent questions... >> On how many cars do the carbs once in a while just fall off? ...I'll just bite my tongue and resist further comment...afterall, I'm still building... Fred do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:08 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. On 09/13/2010 11:03 PM, Fred Klein wrote: >>> On how many cars do the carbs once in a while just fall off? > > ...I'll just bite my tongue and resist further comment...afterall, I'm > still building... Don't get me wrong. I'm happy with my Rotax 914. It is a nice and reliable engine. But it doesn't mean that it is perfect, or that nothing can be improved upon. I think there is a lack of competition here. Why should they improve it? It sells anyway. Do they actually still have a development department? Or have they left years ago because they harvested enough money? Is that why there is no EFI version of the 914, no Windows version of the TCU-program, etc? Frans ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:15 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. Fred=0AI have to smile, why indeed. Why did they not have a proper breather on the =0Acoolant collector bottle. If they had I might not have got a bla ck eye and some =0Abroken bones.=0AWe must keep on learning and sharing inf ormation.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: F red Klein =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, 13 September, 2010 22:03:43=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Bing Ca rb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal =0Aaccident..=0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein =0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrans. ..All excellent questions...=0A=0A>> On how many cars do the carbs once in a while just fall off?=0A=0A...I'll just bite my tongue and resist further comment...afterall, I'm still =0Abuilding...=0A=0AFred ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:18 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel control cables attachment On Sep 13, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Guerner Remi wrote: > Thank you for your suggestions. However, having no tail wheel stop > is not good. > <<<<**I ripped off Grahams aluminium tailwheel stop Remi, Bob may have been using the colloquial phrase "ripped off" to mean that he copied Graham's design rather than that he removed it. Fred ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:49 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel control cables attachment I consider copying to be a form of flattery =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______ _________________________=0A=0A=0ARemi,=0A=0ABob may have been using the co lloquial phrase "ripped off" to mean that he =0Acopied Graham's design rath er than that he removed it.=0A=0AFred=0A=0A=0A_=0A ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:46 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tail wheel control cables attachment From: "rparigoris" Hi Remi When I mentioned I "ripped off" Grahams designed of his tailwheel stop, I meant that I copied his design. I did in fact fabricate it from 7075 Aluminium that is quite robust. http://www.mcmaster.com/#about-aluminum/=8u6cpz http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28015 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28009 What material did you make your stop from? Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312370#312370 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.