---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/28/10: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:57 AM - Re: phones for flying (David Joyce) 2. 04:22 AM - Re: phones for flying (Paul Atkinson) 3. 04:31 AM - Re: phones for flying (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 4. 05:14 AM - Re: phones for flying (europapa) 5. 06:34 AM - Re: phones for flying (rampil) 6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: phones for flying (David Joyce) 7. 07:23 AM - Re: phones for flying (Garry Stout) 8. 07:29 AM - Re: phones for flying (Garry Stout) 9. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: phones for flying (Garry Stout) 10. 07:36 AM - Re: phones for flying (Garry Stout) 11. 08:39 AM - Re: phones for flying (Kevin Challis) 12. 10:27 AM - Re: phones for flying (Fred Klein) 13. 10:40 AM - Re: phones for flying (Gerry Holland) 14. 01:51 PM - Re: phones for flying (Ralph K. Hallett III) 15. 02:27 PM - Classic Rudder build manual? (Peter Zutrauen) 16. 04:29 PM - Re: Classic Rudder build manual? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 17. 04:29 PM - Re: phones for flying (rampil) 18. 04:34 PM - Re: phones for flying (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 19. 10:41 PM - Re: Classic Rudder build manual? (duanefamly@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:06 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying Fred, The iPad does 8hrs + How long do you anticipate flying? David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 4:50 AM Subject: Europa-List: phones for flying > > Given limited battery life of iPad/iPhone, has anyone found a cord which > can plug directly into a 12v power source, and a receptacle which could > be wired into and located on the instrument panel? > > (I'm told the iPad wants 1.5 amps) > > Thanks, > > Fred > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying From: Paul Atkinson Fred I have a cigar lighter socket on the panel into which I plug a usb car charger. You will find dozens on Amazon, I think mine was made by Griffin. Cheers Paul On 28 December 2010 04:50, Fred Klein wrote: > > Given limited battery life of iPad/iPhone, has anyone found a cord which > can plug directly into a 12v power source, and a receptacle which could be > wired into and located on the instrument panel? > > (I'm told the iPad wants 1.5 amps) > > Thanks, > > Fred > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:10 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying Gerry=0AI used to use my old PDA as a navigation device using PocketFMS. (g ood software =0Athat was)=0ATrouble is the connection for recharging and da ta updates has worn out so it =0Awon't recharge or update any more. Is the i Phone connector equally fragile?=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A____________________ ____________=0AFrom: Gerry Holland =0ATo: eu ropa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, 28 December, 2010 7:31:36=0ASubjec t: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying=0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted b y: Gerry Holland =0A=0AFred Hi!=0ANot being flippant but everything has a limited battery life. You are quite=0Aright w hen you say the iPhone battery charge can dissipate fairly quickly=0Awhen u sing something like Memory Map as a navigational back up.=0APossibly as low as 4 hours or less. I do have a 12V Auxiliary connection to=0Amine from a 7Amp Hour Battery Box as I have no electrics from the Aircraft.=0AIt's old and basic and not a Europa.=0AI have a iPad at home and the battery life on that is very good, lasting=0Aabout 15 hours in constant use although it co uld be less as navigation=0Adevice. It too can have auxiliary 12V supply. T hese supplies are normally=0Aconnected via Aux or Cigarette Lighter connect ion.=0AI used a RAM iPhone Holder purchased from Aircraft Spruce. The iPad has=0Asimilar holder.=0AWhen using iPhone as navigational device turn off 3 GS connection to conserve=0Abattery life.=0A=0AFor iPad Holder look at:=0A http://www.xtrdesign.co.uk/XTR_Design/Welcome.html=0Ahttp://www.aircraftspr uce.com/catalog/avpages/ramholap8lu.php=0A=0AFor iPhone:=0Ahttp://www.aircr aftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ramholap9u.php=0A=0AHope that helps.=0AThe iP hone is an excellent BACK UP for navigation as well as many other=0Aaviatio -======================== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:35 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: phones for flying From: "europapa" I bought myself an Android phone with almost the same features as the iPhone 4 for half the price of it. But to use it for aeronautical navigation and weather briefing it is only competitive for US users. Here in Europe they still dont offer easy to use apps and charts please correct me if Im not right. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324780#324780 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: phones for flying From: "rampil" Greetings All, I've already posted several months back on my findings, using the iPad in a Europa. I carry it with me on every non-local flight. On bright sunny days it is nearly impossible to read in the cockpit. It's too big to fit my thigh because it blocks lateral stick movement. I have no open space on my panel for it either. I was thinking about a stalk mount on the left side of the fuse. Has anyone found a better solution? My current mode it to leave it in the pax seat and pick it up to read the screen. I use it as a backup to my BlueMountain and for weather overlays. The same view problems for my iPhone 3gs. No cell phone will be different because they all use a very similar display technology and they must balance battery life against backlight brightness. The iOS devices clearly have the best and the largest selection of relevent, useful, easy to use in the cockpit software. If you buy a different smartphone platform, you will be gambling that the aviation software will arrive before the device goes obsolete. I have used almost all of the available in-flight apps for the phone/pad. Now that Apple officially allows 3rd party multitasking, I run both Foreflight and AirNavPro and flip between them. AirNav has global map/navaid coverage, btw. I no longer use Skycharts because it is far more cumbersome and slow. I reject WingX because its user interface is a dog and it is far more expensive. I reject Jepp and AirGuide for the same reasons What I have seen in Flying, P&P, Kitplanes, IFR etc about these apps is unreliable. No real reviews have appeared, what has been been printed have been re-written press releases from advertisers. The GPS chipset in the iPad is more sensitive than that in the iPhone 3gs, but not as sensitive as a Garmin dash-mount automotive like my Nuvi 255w. Here's a simple test, fly commercial transport a/c somewhere in a window seat. Fire up iPhone, iPad, and Nuvi next to window. iPhone will rarely lock in flight, iPad will usually lock on (say 70-80% of time from cold start), and Nuvi will always lock (at least I have not yet seen it fail). There are some iOS GPS oddities in the phone where a good lock prevails during taxi, takeoff and climb, then fails as if some groundspeed / altitude limit is in the software ( well above Europa performance profile!!). It was fun and gratifying however to track my progress over the mid atlantic at 520 kts gs and FL390 enroute to/from Rio last month on my iPad with AirNavPro. Nine hour flight and the battery lasted the whole trip with perhaps 75% duty cycle and dimmed screen. The next big thing ought to be georeferenced approach plates if the vendors decide that the outboard GPS modules are that much better than the iPad internal system. I'd spring for an external gps in exchange for the live plates :) Best Wishes for the New Year! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324794#324794 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:18 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: phones for flying Ira, I can find NavPro in my App store but not AirNavPro. Are we missing something in the UK? Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "rampil" Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 2:31 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: phones for flying > > Greetings All, > > I've already posted several months back on my findings, using the > iPad in a Europa. I carry it with me on every non-local flight. > > On bright sunny days it is nearly impossible to read in the cockpit. > It's too big to fit my thigh because it blocks lateral stick movement. > I have no open space on my panel for it either. I was thinking about > a stalk mount on the left side of the fuse. Has anyone found a better > solution? My current mode it to leave it in the pax seat and pick it > up to read the screen. I use it as a backup to my BlueMountain and for > weather overlays. > > The same view problems for my iPhone 3gs. > No cell phone will be different because they all use a very similar > display technology and they must balance battery life against > backlight brightness. > > > The iOS devices clearly have the best and the largest selection of > relevent, useful, easy to use in the cockpit software. > > If you buy a different smartphone platform, you will be gambling that > the aviation software will arrive before the device goes obsolete. > > I have used almost all of the available in-flight apps for the phone/pad. > > Now that Apple officially allows 3rd party multitasking, I run both > Foreflight and AirNavPro and flip between them. AirNav has global > map/navaid coverage, btw. > > I no longer use Skycharts because it is far more cumbersome and slow. > I reject WingX because its user interface is a dog and it is far more > expensive. > > I reject Jepp and AirGuide for the same reasons > > What I have seen in Flying, P&P, Kitplanes, IFR etc about these apps is > unreliable. No real reviews have appeared, what has been > been printed have been re-written press releases from advertisers. > > The GPS chipset in the iPad is more sensitive than that in the iPhone 3gs, > but not as sensitive as a Garmin dash-mount automotive like my Nuvi > 255w. > > Here's a simple test, fly commercial transport a/c somewhere in a window > seat. Fire up iPhone, iPad, and Nuvi next to window. iPhone will rarely > lock in flight, iPad will usually lock on (say 70-80% of time from cold > start), > and Nuvi will always lock (at least I have not yet seen it fail). There > are some iOS > GPS oddities in the phone where a good lock prevails during > taxi, takeoff and climb, then fails as if some groundspeed / altitude > limit is in the software ( well above Europa performance profile!!). > > It was fun and gratifying however to track my progress over the mid > atlantic at 520 kts gs and FL390 enroute to/from Rio last month on my > iPad with AirNavPro. Nine hour flight and the battery lasted the whole > trip > with perhaps 75% duty cycle and dimmed screen. > > The next big thing ought to be georeferenced approach plates if the > vendors decide that the outboard GPS modules are that much better than > the iPad internal system. I'd spring for an external gps in exchange > for the live plates :) > > Best Wishes for the New Year! > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324794#324794 > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:29 AM PST US From: "Garry Stout" Subject: RE: Europa-List: phones for flying Apple, or Radio Shack has a power charging cord which plugs into a panel mounted cigarette lighter receptacle. I use one. Garry Stout -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 11:50 PM Subject: Europa-List: phones for flying Given limited battery life of iPad/iPhone, has anyone found a cord which can plug directly into a 12v power source, and a receptacle which could be wired into and located on the instrument panel? (I'm told the iPad wants 1.5 amps) Thanks, Fred ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:25 AM PST US From: "Garry Stout" Subject: RE: Europa-List: phones for flying When using the iPad (with Foreflight app) IN THE AIR, don't turn off the 3G function. You'll be left with only Wi-Fi capability which is nonexistent in the air. In most sections of the country you'll still have internet connectivity via 3G cell towers, so you can get weather downloads, etc. The 3G cell tower service is not 100% as when flying over some more remote sections of the country you'll be out of range of any cell towers, but my experience is that I'm seldom out of service for more than about 10 or 15 minutes. Garry Stout -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Holland Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 2:32 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying Fred Hi! Not being flippant but everything has a limited battery life. You are quite right when you say the iPhone battery charge can dissipate fairly quickly when using something like Memory Map as a navigational back up. Possibly as low as 4 hours or less. I do have a 12V Auxiliary connection to mine from a 7Amp Hour Battery Box as I have no electrics from the Aircraft. It's old and basic and not a Europa. I have a iPad at home and the battery life on that is very good, lasting about 15 hours in constant use although it could be less as navigation device. It too can have auxiliary 12V supply. These supplies are normally connected via Aux or Cigarette Lighter connection. I used a RAM iPhone Holder purchased from Aircraft Spruce. The iPad has similar holder. When using iPhone as navigational device turn off 3GS connection to conserve battery life. For iPad Holder look at: http://www.xtrdesign.co.uk/XTR_Design/Welcome.html http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ramholap8lu.php For iPhone: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ramholap9u.php Hope that helps. The iPhone is an excellent BACK UP for navigation as well as many other aviation Apps to use. AeroWeather is a must. Regards Gerry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:18 AM PST US From: "Garry Stout" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: phones for flying Ira, I believe that the Foreflight folks are working on geo referenced approach plates, and plan to release soon. Won't that be something! Garry Stout -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:32 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: phones for flying Greetings All, I've already posted several months back on my findings, using the iPad in a Europa. I carry it with me on every non-local flight. On bright sunny days it is nearly impossible to read in the cockpit. It's too big to fit my thigh because it blocks lateral stick movement. I have no open space on my panel for it either. I was thinking about a stalk mount on the left side of the fuse. Has anyone found a better solution? My current mode it to leave it in the pax seat and pick it up to read the screen. I use it as a backup to my BlueMountain and for weather overlays. The same view problems for my iPhone 3gs. No cell phone will be different because they all use a very similar display technology and they must balance battery life against backlight brightness. The iOS devices clearly have the best and the largest selection of relevent, useful, easy to use in the cockpit software. If you buy a different smartphone platform, you will be gambling that the aviation software will arrive before the device goes obsolete. I have used almost all of the available in-flight apps for the phone/pad. Now that Apple officially allows 3rd party multitasking, I run both Foreflight and AirNavPro and flip between them. AirNav has global map/navaid coverage, btw. I no longer use Skycharts because it is far more cumbersome and slow. I reject WingX because its user interface is a dog and it is far more expensive. I reject Jepp and AirGuide for the same reasons What I have seen in Flying, P&P, Kitplanes, IFR etc about these apps is unreliable. No real reviews have appeared, what has been been printed have been re-written press releases from advertisers. The GPS chipset in the iPad is more sensitive than that in the iPhone 3gs, but not as sensitive as a Garmin dash-mount automotive like my Nuvi 255w. Here's a simple test, fly commercial transport a/c somewhere in a window seat. Fire up iPhone, iPad, and Nuvi next to window. iPhone will rarely lock in flight, iPad will usually lock on (say 70-80% of time from cold start), and Nuvi will always lock (at least I have not yet seen it fail). There are some iOS GPS oddities in the phone where a good lock prevails during taxi, takeoff and climb, then fails as if some groundspeed / altitude limit is in the software ( well above Europa performance profile!!). It was fun and gratifying however to track my progress over the mid atlantic at 520 kts gs and FL390 enroute to/from Rio last month on my iPad with AirNavPro. Nine hour flight and the battery lasted the whole trip with perhaps 75% duty cycle and dimmed screen. The next big thing ought to be georeferenced approach plates if the vendors decide that the outboard GPS modules are that much better than the iPad internal system. I'd spring for an external gps in exchange for the live plates :) Best Wishes for the New Year! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324794#324794 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:18 AM PST US From: "Garry Stout" Subject: RE: Europa-List: phones for flying With fairly extensive cross country experience using the iPad, I've found about 4 to 5 hours of useful battery life.........no way can I get 8 hours. Garry Stout -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 4:54 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying Fred, The iPad does 8hrs + How long do you anticipate flying? David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 4:50 AM Subject: Europa-List: phones for flying > > Given limited battery life of iPad/iPhone, has anyone found a cord which > can plug directly into a 12v power source, and a receptacle which could > be wired into and located on the instrument panel? > > (I'm told the iPad wants 1.5 amps) > > Thanks, > > Fred > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying From: Kevin Challis I have a cigar socket on the panel. I connect a 4 way connector and power tw o iphones, backup gps, and sometimes a video camera! It works fine the iphon e connectors are quite robust. Kevin On 28 Dec 2010, at 12:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON w rote: > Gerry > I used to use my old PDA as a navigation device using PocketFMS. (good sof tware that was) > Trouble is the connection for recharging and data updates has worn out so i t won't recharge or update any more. Is the i Phone connector equally fragil e? > Graham > From: Gerry Holland > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, 28 December, 2010 7:31:36 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying > co.uk> > > Fred Hi! > Not being flippant but everything has a limited battery life. You are quit e > right when you say the iPhone battery charge can dissipate fairly quickly > when using something like Memory Map as a navigational back up. > Possibly as low as 4 hours or less. I do have a 12V Auxiliary connection t o > mine from a 7Amp Hour Battery Box as I have no electrics from the Aircraft .. > It's old and basic and not a Europa. > I have a iPad at home and the battery life on that is very good, lasting > about 15 hours in constant use although it could be less as navigation > device. It too can have auxiliary 12V supply. These supplies are normally > connected via Aux or Cigarette Lighter connection. > I used a RAM iPhone Holder purchased from Aircraft Spruce. The iPad has > similar holder. > When using iPhone as navigational device turn off 3GS connection to conser ve > battery life. > > For iPad Holder look at: > http://www.xtrdesign.co.uk/XTR_Design/Welcome.html > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ramholap8lu.php > > For iPhone: > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ramholap9u.php > > Hope that helps. > The iPhone is an excellent BACK UP for navigation as well as many other > aviation Apps to use. AeroWme AWESOME FREE lectric www.aeroere www.builder sb="_blank" href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com= --> http://wwwnk" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matro nics.com > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:20 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying Gerry, David, and Paul, Thanks for your replies...I own neither an iPhone nor and iPad at present; if fact, I remain "cell-free", and my ignorance must be apparent. However, I've heard nothing but wonderful things about apps related to flight planning, and, I gather that additional apps are earning these iP's a place in the cockpit...hence...as I'm just beginning to cut my subpanels, it seemed like a good idea to locate a receptacle to be able to power them up. I initially resisted using a cigar lighter socket...it seems so archaic...but hey, how much simpler could it be? Rest assured, I will be relying on Mr. Garmin and Mr. Dynon for navigation...not Mr. Jobs (cool as that might be). Cheers, Fred On Dec 28, 2010, at 4:19 AM, Paul Atkinson wrote: > I have a cigar lighter socket on the panel into which I plug a usb > car charger. You will find dozens on Amazon, I think mine was made > by Griffin. > > Cheers > > Paul > > On 28 December 2010 04:50, Fred Klein wrote: > > Given limited battery life of iPad/iPhone, has anyone found a cord > which can plug directly into a 12v power source, and a receptacle > which could be wired into and located on the instrument panel? ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying From: Gerry Holland Fred Mr Jobs could supply you with a great phone and a =8Cback up=B9 GPS facility + weather reports. Mr Dynon is another great player so your choice is lot easier than it was 5 or 10 years ago. Get building now! Kind Regards and finish building in 2011!!!! Gerry ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:15 PM PST US From: "Ralph K. Hallett III" Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying At the risk of beating a dead horse... Be sure and not use your polarized sun glassed with the iPad, scared the poo out of me the first time I used it. Looked at iPad for chart and it was BLACK, I thought the battery was dead! Nope, just the bone head using the sun glasses. Ralph On 12/28/2010 10:36 AM, Gerry Holland wrote: > Fred > Mr Jobs could supply you with a great phone and a 'back up' GPS > facility + weather reports. > Mr Dynon is another great player so your choice is lot easier than it > was 5 or 10 years ago. > Get building now! > Kind Regards and finish building in 2011!!!! > Gerry > * > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:05 PM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Europa-List: Classic Rudder build manual? Hi folks, I'm incorporating Graham's tail-wheel mod, and require the push-rod bracket Classic rudder build manual section. I'd be grateful for a softcopy if anyone has one handy. I trust that the Classic manual also specifies the distance from the bottom of the rudder. Also, I assume the lower rudder horn build step is omitted(?). Cheers and thx! Pete A239 .... finally getting this ball rolling :-) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:30 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic Rudder build manual? Pete=0Ayes,you omit the bottom rudder horn.=0AWhat instructions do you have for my system? Do you have the Classic push rod =0Amount that fits in the rudder?=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Peter Zutrauen =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASen t: Tuesday, 28 December, 2010 22:21:44=0ASubject: Europa-List: Classic Rudd er build manual?=0A=0AHi folks,=0A=0AI'm incorporating Graham's tail-wheel mod, and require the push-rod bracket =0AClassic rudder build manual sectio n. =0A=0A=0AI'd be grateful for a softcopy if anyone has one handy. I tr ust that the =0AClassic manual also specifies the distance from the bottom of the rudder. =0A=0AAlso, I assume the lower rudder horn build step is omi tted(?).=0A=0ACheers and thx!=0APete=0AA239 .... finally getting this ball -======================== =========== =0A ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:30 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: phones for flying From: "rampil" Hi David, Try the company website at http://www.xample.ch/ The official name is Air Navigation Pro. Check it out, you might be pleased. Hi Garry, The georef plates are an interesting issue. It would make sense That the necessary data is within the compressed PDF. However, In a burst curiosity, I disassembled and decompressed some Plates straight from NACO. Amazingly, it is not there, not in the standard public release. Amazingly, the PDFs actually contain a vectorized version of the all the tiny little strokes on the page, not the geometry. Secure I suppose, but extremely inefficient, space wise. There is a single company in Seattle that apparently gets better PDFs or additional information from NACO. Those that do georeferenced plates at the moment, all use this company's product. If Foreflight is going With them, we can expect to pay more ;( Stay warm Garry! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324853#324853 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:33 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying Fred=0AYou can buy a cheap cigar lighter power supply cable, cut the plug o ff and wire =0Ait in directly. Be careful though, the output won't be 12 vo lts so you need the =0Aone for the device you want to use.=0Aregards=0AGrah am.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Fred Klein =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, 28 Dec ember, 2010 18:23:58=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: phones for flying=0A=0AI i nitially resisted using a cigar lighter socket...it seems so archaic...but =========0A ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic Rudder build manual? From: duanefamly@aol.com Graham, since you are addressing this mod, I have a quick question...... ..since I have incorporated this mod during my build, it has been awhile si nce dealing with it.......but now I have to make adjustments to try and ach ieve the 30' deflection on each side and have only been able to reach about 20' on each side.....any suggestions? Mike -----Original Message----- From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: Tue, Dec 28, 2010 4:29 pm Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic Rudder build manual? Pete yes,you omit the bottom rudder horn. What instructions do you have for my system? Do you have the Classic push r od mount that fits in the rudder? Graham From: Peter Zutrauen Sent: Tuesday, 28 December, 2010 22:21:44 Subject: Europa-List: Classic Rudder build manual? Hi folks, I'm incorporating Graham's tail-wheel mod, and require the push-rod bracket Classic rudder build manual section. I'd be grateful for a softcopy if anyone has one handy. I trust that the C lassic manual also specifies the distance from the bottom of the rudder. Also, I assume the lower rudder horn build step is omitted(?). Cheers and thx! 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