---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/21/11: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:26 AM - Re: Mono undercarriage (Remi Guerner) 2. 02:39 AM - Re: Re: Mono undercarriage (David Joyce) 3. 03:37 AM - 914 Fuel Pumps (Bill and Sue) 4. 04:27 AM - Paint for instrument panels (flyingphil2) 5. 04:39 AM - Europa Owner's website (Bill Henderson) 6. 04:40 AM - Re: Paint for instrument panels (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 7. 04:49 AM - Re: Re: Main wing bushings (Peter Zutrauen) 8. 05:06 AM - Re: Paint for instrument panels (flyingphil2) 9. 05:50 AM - Re: Europa fuel tank - Fluorination service in the USA (Peter Zutrauen) 10. 06:37 AM - Re: 914 Fuel Pumps (G-IANI) 11. 07:46 AM - Re: 914 Fuel Pumps (Bill & Sue) 12. 09:52 AM - Re: Paint for instrument panels (Peter Rees) 13. 12:27 PM - Re: Re: Main wing bushings (Bob Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:34 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mono undercarriage From: "Remi Guerner" Hi David, I also found that my dampers were not in good shape after 800 hours. I was tempted to try without them but decided against it as it seems they also serve as a guide to maintain the rubber block in position. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327756#327756 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:45 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mono undercarriage Remi, Thanks for that. I have been persuaded that it is worth having them and have been offered a pair by 2 people who converted from mono to trike. If you are looking for a cheap set Bob Harrison would no doubt be pleased to give you his for very little. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Remi Guerner" Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:23 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mono undercarriage > > Hi David, > > I also found that my dampers were not in good shape after 800 hours. I was > tempted to try without them but decided against it as it seems they also > serve as a guide to maintain the rubber block in position. > > Regards > Remi Guerner > F-PGKL > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327756#327756 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:13 AM PST US From: Bill and Sue Subject: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Pumps When I came to offer up the bits of my fuel pump plumbing I discovered that the inlets to the pumps are no longer 8mm, like the outlets, but 12mm. This was probably changed ages ago but is news to me. I can't see what the benefit is (other than it may be some sort of standard in the car world) but I need to find a 12mm to 8mm pipe joiner. It sounds simple, but I have drawn a blank with the usual suppliers. Anyone been here first and solved this minor irritation? Thanks Bill ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Paint for instrument panels From: "flyingphil2" Hi, Does anyone know the product details of the grey paint that is used for instrument panels (especially on gliders). It gives a very hard wearing finish but feels quite soft to touch. If anyone knows the spec, do you have a UK supplier? I'd like to say that I'm putting the finishing touches to my Europa but this is for another project...... Thanks, Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327764#327764 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:46 AM PST US From: "Bill Henderson" Subject: Europa-List: Europa Owner's website Anyone know when the Europa Owners website might be back up? Thanks, Bill A010 Monowheel Classic ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:41 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Paint for instrument panels It's called Nextel, Uk supplier is Haynes in Leicester, (don't have details to =0Ahand Phil) Expensive and is a 3 part mix, best to ask if anyone has some spare.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFr om: flyingphil2 =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASe nt: Friday, 21 January, 2011 12:25:03=0ASubject: Europa-List: Paint for ins er@lolacars.com>=0A=0AHi,=0A=0ADoes anyone know the product details of the grey paint that is used for =0Ainstrument panels (especially on gliders). It gives a very hard wearing finish =0Abut feels quite soft to touch.=0A=0A If anyone knows the spec, do you have a UK supplier?=0A=0AI'd like to say t hat I'm putting the finishing touches to my Europa but this is =0Afor anoth er project......=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0APhil=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic onlin e here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327764#327764=0A ===================== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:49 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Main wing bushings Not to be argumentative or picky....but.... My original mental analysis was just as Bud has described - but Graham's description contradicted the assumption that under positive high-G loads, the main spar pins are indeed providing an upward force vector to the cockpit module as originally (and intuitively) thought. The reason being that both the forward and rear (your rear pin under tensio n analysis is accurate tho) lift pins are indeed taking *all* of the downward G-loading from the cockpit module, pushing upwards on the fuse, and the two spar pins are actually pushing *downward* on the cockpit module (disregarding the twisting vector on the main spar pins imparted by the scissor action of the spars). Why? because the spars are actually bending i n a curve (think a smile) just as the entire wing is, and the root ends of th e spars are actually (relative to the fuse) higher as a result than the spar pin positions. The spar is trying to impart it's smile shape onto the vertical cockpit module surface - which is not going to comply. I believe this analysis (Graham's) is correct. So the fuse is not hangin g on the spar pins during high-G loading as one would intuitively assume. Cheers, Pete On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > Sorry guys if I don't understand the actual question about the bushes an d > bearing loads! I had to go back and try to picture the question, in the > mean time, Grahams analysis is spot on as usual. > > To visualize the loads read on to my miscellaneous drivel. > > The two spars are basically a set of scissors.. The pins lock the spars > together like a pair of scissors trying to cut a steel bar. The pins of > course must go through the fuselage and each spar to hold the fuselage > gravity forces and translate the lift forces of the wings to the fuselage .. > The bushes distribute the load and the hardened pins take the lifting loa ds > as shear load. > > Essentially the fuselage (about 1100 lbs. loaded with down tail forces > added under G and acceleration as well as the radial Gs) hangs from the > pins. > > The spars bend under the vertical load. Like a pair of scissors, that is > trying to cut through that solid steel bar stock, so picture the force of > your hands causing the thin blades to bend, as you would expect a thin l ong > pair of scissors to twist, bending vertical and laterally. > Mod 52s rear socket and tube takes the forward element of the lift vector > (the lift of the wing near maximum is forward and up, really pulling on t he > aft socket) and translates the load through root rib, to the rear attach to > the steel tube in fuselage which is under tension but does not > significantly contribute to the vertical lift load. > > Because the aircraft is fiberglass and it does move a bit under load, the > spars twist some under load. The Mod 52s, 1/2 inch spar pip pin, keeps t he > tip of the starboard spar in check and from slipping into the control > linkage under bending and twisting. The spar strap deters twist and spar > separation under load from their at rest positions. The pins hardened > strength allows it to not be sheared by the huge shearing action of the t wo > spars against the fuselage and each other. > > So why doesn't the spar pin bend at the bush? Picture the fuselage > weight is pulling down at the left cockpit bush, the left spar (forward) is > pulling up, but the right spar (aft) is pushing down, and the sum of the > actions basically keeps the pin horizontal. All that force though is on > only one 1/2 inch in diameter pin, and that is one heck of a lot of > shearing force. Because it is over a short distance (and our spars are ti ght > together), we don't have to have microns of tolerance in the pin to bushi ng > fit.....The action of the spars against one another brilliantly keeps the > pin horizontal and not from bending upward at the fuselage bush and slipp ing > off the pins as one would expect at first glance thinking of only one spa r. > > It is a clean neat simple design. Could it be better, you bet, but can i t > be built by us simple beings easily and cost effective? Probably not, so do > I want to change it? No way, it isn't worth it. Like you all say, it ai n't > broke, so don't fix it. > > For you new builders, keep your bushes and spars at a reasonable tightnes s > and you will be fine. If you must ream the bush a bit because the port p in > is too tight, you only need to ream a couple of thousandths normally. A > heated pin through the bushes works best, as Graham said before, to take a > slightly out of align bush and right it. Don't panic at the fuselage bus h > slop as the spars keep the pin horizontal. Always use the spar strap and > the pip pin adjusted as per the manual with the washer to distribute the > load on the poor spar cup. Don't substitute bolts for the wing pins > provided unless properly hardened. If you own a classic, do a Mod 52/74 as > it is great insurance. > > Regards to all and I hope to see you at Sun "n Fun. > > Bud Yerly > Custom Flight Creations, Inc. > www.customflightcreations.com > (813) 653-4989 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Bob Harrison > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:38 AM > *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: Re: Main wing bushings > > Hi! I understand that the late Barry Mellors did all the fuselage calcs. > IMHO he was a brilliant engineer in all things aircraft and worked in his > own self employed right doing lots of work for the Brazillian aircraft > manufacturers Combine him with Don Dykins wing designer and you had the > benefit of a wonderful combine. Unfortunately we obviously can=92t speak to > Barry anymore to discuss the items you are interested in. However it may > help you to understand that when the wing fails it fails forward. Like ha s > been suggested =93if it ain=92t broke don=92t try to fix it !=94 Barry, b less him, > helped immensely with the engine mount design and PFA approval for the > Jabiru 3300 engine mount and I=92m quite sure the aircraft would never ha ve > flown without his design skill and approach to the intransigence of the PFA > engineer of the time! > > Regards > > To all > > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Kingsley Hurst > *Sent:* 20 January 2011 03:33 > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: Main wing bushings > > > Hello Will, > > > I am not suggesting there is any alternative for us as builders. The > design "as is" obviously fits the bill so the old adage, "if it ain't bro ke, > don't fix it" is appropriate. > > > From a designer's point of view however, if you inspect the various metho ds > employed by sailplane manufacturers, there are possibly better ways of do ing > it. I have never seen a sailplane with the same set-up as the Europa but > that doesn't mean there isn't any. Ivan Shaw did get some ideas from > sailplanes so maybe he found one . . . . I dunno! > > > Cheers > > Kingsley > > > do not archive > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* William Daniell > > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:57 PM > > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: Main wing bushings > > > Kingsley > I don't understand due to my limited knowledge of the engineering. > What alternative might there be? > Will > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:06 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Paint for instrument panels From: "flyingphil2" Fantastic. Many thanks for your help. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327771#327771 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:30 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa fuel tank - Fluorination service in the USA Final update: I received my tank, and it and the filler snake looked just fine - no treatment damage. What I thought interesting was that the surface finish of the tank had indeed changed quite significantly from the treatment. Where it was originally a semi-flat surface texture (with some "almost shiny" spots), it was now *very* flat, or "frosty" or almost sand-blasted in texture. So indeed the additional treatment (to the automotive AL level) did obviously make some difference to the surface chemical makeup. Which (in my mind at least) raises the question of whether my tank was treated originally, or was treated to a much lower level. Cheers, Pete On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > A quick update for anyone interested: > > - My tank is enroute back to me (well, not me, but to the UPS store in > Odgensburg NY) > - My shipping costs were approx $100. I included a return shipping label in > the crate for the return trip. (their quotes are FOB their dock) > - The process reportedly was uneventful (no contamination-caused heat > damage) > > - I just received their quote, for anyone else interested the cost is > $33.46 per tank. What a deal! :-) > - Their minimum order charge is $300 - ouch....(I'm still sore) (btw, > that is reduced from $400 for us Europa builders) > - On their quote, they offer "Certificate of Fluorination" for an > additional $90 per *shipment* fwiw. > > So, for any other builders in N.A. who have not yet installed their tank > and were interested, if a group got together the shipping costs would likely > be greater than the actual processing. The only potential tricky part may be > the logistics, to ensure all the tanks got to their dock near the same time. > > I have the quote in .pdf for anyone interested. > > Cheers, > Pete > A239 > Ottawa, Canada > > > On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > >> Hi Steve, >> >> Yes, my tank is en-route. As I've been advised from them that if the tank >> is not free of contaminants (I had to clean mine inside and out with >> naphtha/methanol - nasty) it could be damaged in the process (over-heat from >> a reaction with contaminants), I'd recommend that we wait and see how mine >> goes. Also, I've asked them to produce an accurate costing for my tank (and >> filler snake) with the prospect of doing a few more (grouped together) for >> any other builders out there. >> >> One interesting comment by their technical adviser I thought may have some >> merit: when he was examining pictures of my tank for a cost estimate, he >> advised me that all cuts/openings to the tank must be done prior to the >> process, or any exposed freshly cut surface will be an entry point for the >> absorption of fuel into the MDPE plastic. This is because the fluorination >> treatment is only a surface treatment. So if one takes his opinion as >> valid, even if the tanks have been treated to an adequate level by Europa, >> cutting into them after-wards drastically diminishes the treatment's >> effectiveness. >> >> I'll keep the list updated on the outcome of my tank's adventure, and >> group pricing for anybody interested. Of course I won't likely know how >> effective it has been for another 10 years or so :-P >> >> Cheers, >> Pete >> A239 >> Ottawa, Canada >> >> PS - when I asked the cynical question of "how do I know you even did >> anything" I received the following (reassuring?) reply: >> * >> "Regarding your assurance that your tank has been treated properly, we do >> not ship any items to any one of our customers without our QC measures in >> place. Through use of a Thermo Electron Fourier Transform Infrared >> Spectrophotometer (FTIR) the ratio of available hydrogen sites that have >> been replaced with fluorine in comparison to the available hydrogen sites >> that have not been replaced with fluorine can be measured. Every item >> treated by us must pass our QC before it is released for return shipment. " >> * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Steve Hagar wrote: >> >>> Peter: >>> >>> Have you sent your tank in yet? I being one who having to "hack my tank >>> out" have a tank that I bought a couple of years ago from Bob Berube. I >>> don't know how long he had it so its processing is questionable. I had been >>> planning on fabricating a metal tank for installation when I got around to >>> it so the new plastic tank has been sitting around to be used as a model. >>> However I may change my mind and put the stock item in it would be good to >>> have the proper processing on it. If the lot charge could be spread over 2 >>> or more tanks it would be beneficial. Please get with me if this is >>> something to be considered. >>> >>> Thank you , >>> >>> Steve Hagar >>> A143 >>> Mesa AZ >>> hagargs@earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >> > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:50 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Pumps Bill Yes they have been 12mm for many years. I have just found some for the G-IRON rebuild as the old ones were plastic Demon Tweeks Part NoFSEJ100c,@ 3.40 each. They are steel. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Sue Sent: 21 January 2011 11:31 Subject: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Pumps When I came to offer up the bits of my fuel pump plumbing I discovered that the inlets to the pumps are no longer 8mm, like the outlets, but 12mm. This was probably changed ages ago but is news to me. I can't see what the benefit is (other than it may be some sort of standard in the car world) but I need to find a 12mm to 8mm pipe joiner. It sounds simple, but I have drawn a blank with the usual suppliers. Anyone been here first and solved this minor irritation? Thanks Bill ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:12 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 914 Fuel Pumps From: "Bill & Sue" Thanks Ian, I looked on the Demon Tweeks website but failed to see them. It rather suggests the doctor was right about my eyes when I had my medical yesterday! We have been meaning to arrange to meet up with you and Irene sometime soon because a) it would be nice and, b) I want to pick your brains & look at your engine installation! Regards Bill Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327794#327794 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:11 AM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Paint for instrument panels I think that Nextel is supposed to be pretty nasty stuff to spray. If you don't have the facilities, I think that Matthew Russell can (or at least he used to) spray small items such as instrument pods - probably cheaper than doing it yourself as well - you don't have to buy the minimum order quantity. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: GRAHAM SINGLETON To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Paint for instrument panels It's called Nextel, Uk supplier is Haynes in Leicester, (don't have details to hand Phil) Expensive and is a 3 part mix, best to ask if anyone has some spare. Graham ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:15 PM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Main wing bushings Hi! I understand that the late Barry Mellors did all the fuselage calcs. IMHO he was a brilliant engineer in all things aircraft and worked in his own self employed right doing lots of work for the Brazillian aircraft manufacturers Combine him with Don Dykins wing designer and you had the benefit of a wonderful combine. Unfortunately we obviously can=99t speak to Barry anymore to discuss the items you are interested in. However it may help you to understand that when the wing fails it fails forward. Like has been suggested =9Cif it ain=99t broke don=99t try to fix it !=9D Regards To all Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst Sent: 20 January 2011 03:33 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Main wing bushings Hello Will, I am not suggesting there is any alternative for us as builders. The design "as is" obviously fits the bill so the old adage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is appropriate. >From a designer's point of view however, if you inspect the various methods employed by sailplane manufacturers, there are possibly better ways of doing it. I have never seen a sailplane with the same set-up as the Europa but that doesn't mean there isn't any. Ivan Shaw did get some ideas from sailplanes so maybe he found one . . . . I dunno! Cheers Kingsley do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: William Daniell Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:57 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Main wing bushings Kingsley I don't understand due to my limited knowledge of the engineering. What alternative might there be? Will ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.