Europa-List Digest Archive

Sun 04/17/11


Total Messages Posted: 9



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING TAXI (ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk)
     2. 09:24 AM - Re: Europa Classic fuel filler pipe (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     3. 10:46 AM - Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax (AirEupora)
     4. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: JABIRU etc. Keep your ear to the ground. (Bud Yerly)
     5. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: JABIRU etc. Keep your ear to the ground. (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     6. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     7. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax (Fred Klein)
     8. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax (Tony Renshaw)
     9. 08:15 PM -  (Tony Renshaw)
 
 
 


Message 1


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:08:47 AM PST US
    From: "ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING
    TAXI Not any more Bud I was lucky to be able to change it for a Rotax 914! Regards Bob Harrison GPTAG >----Original Message---- >From: budyerly@msn.com >Date: 15/04/2011 22:48 >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subj: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING TAXI > >I had thought I was the only one with sleepless nights. >Bud > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:51 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING TAXI > > ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag. dev@tiscali.co.uk>> > > Hi! Frans, Graham /all > With comments about the Jabiru you are subjecting me to a nightmare > !!!!!!!!!!!! don't tempt me ! > Regards > Bob Harrison G_PTAG > > >----Original Message---- > >From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com<mailto: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> > >Date: 15/04/2011 11:46 > >To: <europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>> > >Subj: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND > NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING TAXI > > > > > >Frans > > >I think you are right, much more logical conclusions than mine !:- ) > > >Agree about the Jabiru also, sad but geared and liquid cooled will > always have a > > >performance advantage. More complication too of course but a more > sensible > > >compromise I think. > > >regards > > >Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > >From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl<mailto: frans@privatepilots.nl>> > > >To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> > > >Sent: Friday, 15 April, 2011 11:17:12 > > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE > DURING > > >TAXI > > > > <frans@privatepilots<mailto:frans@privatepilots>. > nl> > > > > > >On 04/15/2011 10:17 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > > > > > >> To a certain extent the same thing happens with Rotax so the front > > >> cylinders get more fuel than the rear at some throttle settings, > drops > > >> of fuel don't turn corners the same as air molecules! > > > > > >I believe the "problem" with the Rotax is of a different nature. > There > > >are two carbs, and the inlet pulses are not equally distributed. Each > > >carb will see two inlet pulses in sequence, then followed by a long > > >pause when the cylinders on the other side (fed by the other carb) > have > > >their respective inlet pulses. > > >After the pause, the flow of fuel inside the nozzles is stalled. With > > >the first cylinder breathing, the fuel has to start moving again, and > > >the second cylinder has the benefit that the fuel is already up to > > >speed. So the second cylinder in the sequence receives a slightly > richer > > >mixture. > > >A solution can be to use a bigger bore balance tube. Some Italian > > >company is selling a pair of manifolds and balance tube for this > > >purpose, and the manifolds have already the bosses in them to mount > fuel > > >injectors for future upgrades (and using the carbs as fuelless > throttle > > >bodies and backup in case the EFI fails). > > > > > >Ok,the subject was "Jabiru". To keep it in the subject: After the > long > > >list of problems and disadvantages, can anybody enlighten me what the > > >benefit is of the Jab over the Rotax? (I assume there must be one, > why > > >else would anyone bother to install one?) > > > > > >Frans================= > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> > http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution> > > >


    Message 2


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:24:26 AM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Europa Classic fuel filler pipe
    Charlie=0Adid you get yours approved? Francis is playing money games imho! You might like =0Ato tell Frank if it is approved.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frank Mycroft <frankm@clara.net >=0ATo: graeme@gdbmk.co.uk=0ASent: Sunday, 20 March, 2011 11:46:07=0ASubjec t: Europa-List: Europa Classic fuel filler pipe=0A=0A =0AGraeme=0A =0AI ha ve just had made and fitted an aluminium filler pipe on my Classic, partly =0Abecause of the smell, but also because I prefer the filler pipe on top and =0Adon't want to change to the side filler. My inspector, and anothe r inspector =0Asaid that they did not think this was a mod but to let Fran cis know anyway. I =0Adid that and was told that it was a mod, so I have now got 8 pages of form to =0Afill in and a bill for =A345!=0A =0AHowever F rancis did say that if it was approved he would clear it on an 'all =0Aair craft' basis so that other aircraft can use it too without making referenc e =0Ato him. When I have clearance I will let you (and others through the Matronics =0Asite) know and give details and a drawing to you and our mod s rep so that he =0Acan give it to anyone else who wants it. Incidentally ====== =0A


    Message 3


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 10:46:08 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax
    From: "AirEupora" <AirEupora@sbcglobal.net>
    You are right Kevin. Trying to compare a Jabiru to a Rotax 912 or 914 is like comparing Apples and Oranges. Both taste good. The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate. If I get to fly 100 hour this coming year it will cost me $500.00 dollars this year over your cost for fuel. I can still divide that into the initial cost firewall forward. I looked on the web pages today and Rotax 912ULS is 21K plus the cost of firewall forward vs. 18K for everything on the Jabiru. Rick Stockton Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337229#337229


    Message 4


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 11:41:51 AM PST US
    From: "Bud Yerly" <budyerly@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: JABIRU etc. Keep your ear to the ground.
    Please don't overanalyze the Jab vs Rotax decision. Kevin is right, it is apples and oranges. Those of us near sea level, you are fine with a normally aspirated engine. For those flying out of 5000 foot MSL airstrips and climbing in and out of mountains, you can't beat a turbo. If you want super long range (ouch my bladder hurts) you need to look at specific fuel consumption or cruise fuel flows. My Europa trigear holds 20 US gallons useable (yea the new tank holds a bit more) and at 4.5 gallons an hour, it exceeds my bladder capacity. Geared vs direct drive is a mute point. They both work. Geared turns the prop a bit slower, direct is a shorter prop. This is not a factor for the Europa's prop limit of 64 inches. The Jab runs on AV gas, and Aviation consumables and has a higher specific fuel consumption. The Rotax can run on car gas without problems and is very economical at cruise, and performs well at higher altitude... (It also gives neat airshow departures.) Cooling is not an issue in my bird at all during climb or takeoff. But there are those pesky hoses and the coolant radiator to fool with in 5 years when I better change them. I have found my early early 914 is not the engine of the new 914s. The new Jabiru 3300 is not the same engine as the original solid lifter engines. Kit manufacturers who saddled themselves with only one engine choice have come up with carburetor, cowl and cooling changes which have made their engines more user friendly for their aircraft. There are some idiots flying with Celsius info in the EFIS and telling the prospective buyer the engine is running super cool. Thankfully, no one I know is doing that on purpose. Rest assured, any changes from the primary engine recommended by the aircraft manufacturer will need some tinkering. Truth be known, I don't have time to tinker on my own plane anymore, so I need a lazy mans fire wall forward for the trigear. That is why I have a Rotax and an Airmaster Prop. To me it is just easier to maintain and work on this combination. It is as close to FADEC as I can get with my wallet. Climb and dive, winter or summer, just smack the throttle around and it takes it. No oil leaks, shock cooling, taxi cooling, or noisy prop noise requiring ANR headsets to limit my flying. Although those pesky leaky tires required me to make new wheel pants for easy filling since it sits a lot... We are tinkering with the setup right now of the older model Jab and Rotax in the shop. Tuning is an issue. When the storm damage is fixed, we'll fly more and report back. Same with the Airmaster two blade vs three. The setbacks we've had have slowed us down and removed labor and financial assets, but we will press on. Note: Keep your ear to the ground as the recent storm damage across the US has left many aircraft owners with totaled aircraft, but they still have engines, and sales may be on the horizon. We have a new US owner. They are Mike and Erin DePeugh of Pekin Il. Ken Gresham flew him in his Europa and he was hooked. I'll send some pictures as soon as his plane and he arrives at the shop in May. Have a great week. I am off to my son's graduation and will have my first 4 day in a row break since 2006. Ed and Chris will run the shop as I may not want to come back to work. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING TAXI "ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>> Not any more =C2=B4Bud I was lucky to be able to change it for a Rotax 914! Regards Bob Harrison GPTAG >----Original Message---- >From: budyerly@msn.com<mailto:budyerly@msn.com> >Date: 15/04/2011 22:48 >To: <europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>> >Subj: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING TAXI > >I had thought I was the only one with sleepless nights. >Bud > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.dev@tisc ali.co.uk%3Cmailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>> > To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa- list@matronics.com%3Cmailto:europa-list@matronics.com>> > Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:51 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING TAXI > > "ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto<mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk%3Cmailto>: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>>" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag<mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk%3Cmailt o:ptag>. dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:dev@tiscali.co.uk>>> > > Hi! Frans, Graham /all > With comments about the Jabiru you are subjecting me to a nightmare > !!!!!!!!!!!! don't tempt me ! > Regards > Bob Harrison G_PTAG > > >----Original Message---- > >From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com<mailto<mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.c om%3Cmailto>: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com<mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>> > >Date: 15/04/2011 11:46 > >To: <europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa -list@matronics.com%3Cmailto:europa-list@matronics.com>>> > >Subj: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND > NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING TAXI > > > > > >Frans > > >I think you are right, much more logical conclusions than mine !:- ) > > >Agree about the Jabiru also, sad but geared and liquid cooled will > always have a > > >performance advantage. More complication too of course but a more > sensible > > >compromise I think. > > >regards > > >Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > >From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl<mailto<mailto:frans@privatepilots.nl%3Cmailto>: frans@privatepilots.nl<mailto:frans@privatepilots.nl>>> > > >To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa- list@matronics.com%3Cmailto:europa-list@matronics.com>> > > >Sent: Friday, 15 April, 2011 11:17:12 > > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE > DURING > > >TAXI > > > > <frans@privatepilots<mailto:frans@privatepilots<mailto:frans@privatepilot s%3Cmailto:frans@privatepilots>>. > nl> > > > > > >On 04/15/2011 10:17 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > > > > > >> To a certain extent the same thing happens with Rotax so the front > > >> cylinders get more fuel than the rear at some throttle settings, > drops > > >> of fuel don't turn corners the same as air molecules! > > > > > >I believe the "problem" with the Rotax is of a different nature. > There > > >are two carbs, and the inlet pulses are not equally distributed. Each > > >carb will see two inlet pulses in sequence, then followed by a long > > >pause when the cylinders on the other side (fed by the other carb) > have > > >their respective inlet pulses. > > >After the pause, the flow of fuel inside the nozzles is stalled. With > > >the first cylinder breathing, the fuel has to start moving again, and > > >the second cylinder has the benefit that the fuel is already up to > > >speed. So the second cylinder in the sequence receives a slightly > richer > > >mixture. > > >A solution can be to use a bigger bore balance tube. Some Italian > > >company is selling a pair of manifolds and balance tube for this > > >purpose, and the manifolds have already the bosses in them to mount > fuel > > >injectors for future upgrades (and using the carbs as fuelless > throttle > > >bodies and backup in case the EFI fails). > > > > > >Ok,the subject was "Jabiru". To keep it in the subject: After the > long > > >list of problems and disadvantages, can anybody enlighten me what the > > >benefit is of the Jab over the Rotax? (I assume there must be one, > why > > >else would anyone bother to install one?) > > > > > >Frans================= > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp:// www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>> > http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/contributio n<http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/contribut ion>> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?Europa-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi on>


    Message 5


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:18:13 PM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: JABIRU etc. Keep your ear to the ground.
    Enjoy yourself Bud, at our age pleasure comes before duty! At mine it does =0Aanyway!=0AGood luck to your son, he will need a lot of wisdom and surviv al skills to pay =0Aoff Ben Bernanke debts, unfortunately.=0AMy son is busy paying off the British bankers debts. And their bonuses dammitt!=0AGraham =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Bud Yerly <budye rly@msn.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 17 April, 2011 19:39:02=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU etc. Keep your ear to the ground.=0A=0A=EF=BB =0APlease don't overanalyze the Jab vs Rotax decis ion.=0AKevin is right, it is apples and oranges.=0A =0AThose of us near sea level, you are fine with a normally aspirated engine.=0AFor those flying out of 5000 foot MSL airstrips and climbing in and out of =0Amountains, yo u can't beat a turbo.=0AIf you want super long range (ouch my bladder hurts ) you need to look at =0Aspecific fuel consumption or cruise fuel flows. =0A=0AMy Europa trigear holds 20 US gallons useable (yea the new tank holds a bit =0Amore) and at 4.5 gallons an hour, it exceeds my bladder capacity .=0AGeared vs direct drive is a mute point. They both work. Geared turns the prop =0Aa bit slower, direct is a shorter prop. This is not a factor for the Europa's =0Aprop limit of 64 inches. The Jab runs on AV gas, and Aviation consumables and =0Ahas a higher specific fuel consumption. The Rotax can run on car gas without =0Aproblems and is very economical at crui se, and performs well at higher =0Aaltitude... (It also gives neat airsho w departures.) Cooling is not an issue =0Ain my bird at all during climb or takeoff. But there are those pesky hoses and =0Athe coolant radiator t o fool with in 5 years when I better change them.=0A =0AI have found my ea rly early 914 is not the engine of the new 914s. The new =0AJabiru 3300 i s not the same engine as the original solid lifter engines. Kit =0Amanufa cturers who saddled themselves with only one engine choice have come up =0Awith carburetor, cowl and cooling changes which have made their engines more =0Auser friendly for their aircraft. There are some idiots flying w ith Celsius =0Ainfo in the EFIS and telling the prospective buyer the engi ne is running super =0Acool. Thankfully, no one I know is doing that on p urpose. Rest assured, any =0Achanges from the primary engine recommended by the aircraft manufacturer will =0Aneed some tinkering.=0A =0ATruth be kn own, I don't have time to tinker on my own plane anymore, so I need =0Aa l azy mans fire wall forward for the trigear.=0AThat is why I have a Rotax an d an Airmaster Prop. To me it is just easier to =0Amaintain and work on t his combination. It is as close to FADEC as I can get =0Awith my wallet. Climb and dive, winter or summer, just smack the throttle =0Aaround and i t takes it. No oil leaks, shock cooling, taxi cooling, or noisy =0Aprop n oise requiring ANR headsets to limit my flying. Although those pesky =0Al eaky tires required me to make new wheel pants for easy filling since it s its =0Aa lot...=0A =0AWe are tinkering with the setup right now of the olde r model Jab and Rotax in =0Athe shop. Tuning is an issue. When the storm damage is fixed, we'll fly more =0Aand report back. Same with the Airmas ter two blade vs three. The setbacks =0Awe've had have slowed us down and removed labor and financial assets, but we =0Awill press on.=0A =0ANote: Keep your ear to the ground as the recent storm damage across the US has =0Aleft many aircraft owners with totaled aircraft, but they still have en gines, =0Aand sales may be on the horizon.=0A =0AWe have a new US owner. T hey are Mike and Erin DePeugh of Pekin Il. Ken =0AGresham flew him in his Europa and he was hooked. I'll send some pictures as =0Asoon as his plane and he arrives at the shop in May.=0A =0AHave a great week. I am off to m y son's graduation and will have my first 4 =0Aday in a row break since 20 06. Ed and Chris will run the shop as I may not =0Awant to come back to w ork.=0A =0ARegards,=0ABud=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk =0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent : Sunday, April 17, 2011 12:04 PM=0A>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIR U 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING =0A>TAXI=0A>=0A>--> Europa-List message posted by: "ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk" =0A><ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> =0A>=0A>Not any more =C2=B4Bud I was lucky to be able to change it for a Rotax 914!=0A>Regards=0A>Bob Harrison GPTAG=0A>=0A>>----Original Mes sage----=0A>>From: budyerly@msn.com=0A>>Date: 15/04/2011 22:48 =0A>>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>=0A>>Subj: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 B RAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE =0A>DURING TAXI=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>>I had thought I was the only one with sleepless nights.=0A>=0A>>Bud=0A>=0A>> ----- Original Message ----- =0A>=0A>> From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag .dev@tiscali.co.uk> =0A>=0A>> To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa- list@matronics.com> =0A>=0A>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:51 AM=0A>=0A >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER TEMPERATURE =0A>DURING TAXI=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> --> Europa-List message pos ted by: "ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:=0A>ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>" <ptag.d ev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.=0A>dev@tiscali.co.uk>>=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> Hi! Frans, Graham /all=0A>=0A>> With comments about the Jabiru you are subjecting me to a =0A>nightmare =0A>=0A>> !!!!!!!!!!!! don't tempt me !=0A>=0A>> Regards=0A>=0A>> Bob Harrison G_PTAG=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >-- --Original Message----=0A>=0A>> >From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com<m ailto:=0A>grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>=0A>=0A>> >Date: 15/04/2011 11 :46 =0A>=0A>> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics .com>>=0A>=0A>> >Subj: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND =0A>=0A>> NEW OVER TEMPERATURE DURING TAXI=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >=0A>=0A>>=0A> =0A>> >Frans=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >I think you are right, much more logic al conclusions than mine !:-=0A>)=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >Agree about the Ja biru also, sad but geared and liquid cooled =0A>will =0A>=0A>> always h ave a =0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >performance advantage. More complication too of course but a more =0A>=0A>> sensible =0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >compromise I think.=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >regards=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >Graham=0A>=0A> >=0A>=0A>> >=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A> > >=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >________________________________=0A>=0A>>=0A >=0A>> >From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl<mailto:=0A>frans@pr ivatepilots.nl>>=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailt o:europa-list@matronics.com>=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >Sent: Friday, 15 April, 2011 11:17:12=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: JABIRU 3300 BRAND NEW OVER =0A>TEMPERATURE =0A>=0A>> DURING =0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >TAXI=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >--> Europa-List messag e posted by: Frans Veldman =0A><frans@privatepilots<mailto:frans@privatepil ots>.=0A>=0A>> nl>=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >On 04/15 /2011 10:17 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >=0A>=0A>>=0A >=0A>> >> To a certain extent the same thing happens with Rotax so the =0A>front=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >> cylinders get more fuel than the rear at some throttle =0A>settings, =0A>=0A>> drops=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >> of fuel don't turn corners the same as air molecules!=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> > =0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >I believe the "problem" with the Rotax is of a diff erent nature. =0A>=0A>> There=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >are two carbs, and th e inlet pulses are not equally distributed. =0A>Each=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >carb will see two inlet pulses in sequence, then followed by a =0A>long =0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >pause when the cylinders on the other side (fed by the other =0A>carb) =0A>=0A>> have=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >their respective inlet pulses.=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >After the pause, the flow of fuel inside the nozzles is stalled. =0A>With=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >the first cy linder breathing, the fuel has to start moving again, =0A>and=0A>=0A>>=0A> =0A>> >the second cylinder has the benefit that the fuel is already up to=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >speed. So the second cylinder in the sequence rec eives a slightly =0A>=0A>> richer=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >mixture.=0A> =0A>>=0A>=0A>> >A solution can be to use a bigger bore balance tube. So me Italian=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >company is selling a pair of manifolds an d balance tube for this=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >purpose, and the manifolds h ave already the bosses in them to =0A>mount =0A>=0A>> fuel=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> >injectors for future upgrades (and using the carbs as fuelle ss =0A>=0A>> throttle=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >bodies and backup in case the EFI fails).=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >Ok,the subject was "Jabiru". To keep it in the subject: After the =0A>=0A>> long=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> >list of problems and disadvantages, can anybody enlighten me what =0A>the=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >benefit is of the Jab over the Rotax? (I assume there must be =0A>one, =0A>=0A>> why=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >else would anyone bother to install one?)=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> >=0A>=0A>>=0A> =0A>> >Frans===================0A> =0A>>=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> =0A>>http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?Europa-Listhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>=0A>>=0A> =0A>> =0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/c ontribution>=0A>=0A>> Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; via th e Web =0A>>title=http://forums.matronics.com/ =0A>>href="http://for ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>_p; generous bsp; =0A>title=http://www.matronics.com/contributio n =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.c om/c==================0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ============== =0A


    Message 6


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:21:04 PM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax
    Rick=0Athere's a lot of good experience out there for you to benefit from. (I don't =0Ahave much) =0A=0AI recommend a good engine monitor with 6 EGTs and 6 CHTs, Mixture distribution =0Ais tricky and important.=0AGraham=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: AirEupora <AirEupora@s bcglobal.net>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 17 April, 201 1 18:41:04=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax=0A=0A--> Europa-Lis t message posted by: "AirEupora" <AirEupora@sbcglobal.net>=0A=0AYou are rig ht Kevin. Trying to compare a Jabiru to a Rotax 912 or 914 is like =0Acomp aring Apples and Oranges. Both taste good. =0A=0A=0AThe Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it will cost me =0A$5.00 more an h our to operate. If I get to fly 100 hour this coming year it =0Awill cost me $500.00 dollars this year over your cost for fuel. I can still =0Adivid e that into the initial cost firewall forward.=0A=0AI looked on the web pag es today and Rotax 912ULS is 21K plus the cost of =0Afirewall forward vs. 1 8K for everything on the Jabiru. =0A=0A=0ARick Stockton=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p =========================0A ==


    Message 7


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:53:20 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax
    > The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it > will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate. Rick, To anyone with or contemplating a Jab for their Europa, I can't think of a better resource than archived europa-list posts by John Lawton. As I recall, he's posted better performance figures than Bud mentions. John's been to Jabiru school and has a Rotax maintenance certification as well inasmuch as he regularly flys a motorglider w/ a Rotax in addition to his Jabbed Europa trigear. He's also very generous with his time to discus issues and his experiences w/ both engines...and quite satisfied w/ his Europa installation...I believe his engine has mechanical lifters. I was very interested in the Jab (with a fairly complete FWF kit) before the demise of Suncoast Aviation. As some of you know, I've proceeded to install a 140 hp MPEFI'd Sube variant I bought from RAM Performance Ltd which comes w/ a PSRU from N. Zealand, Airtex fuel pump, and a plug-n-play ECU. Cost was $16.5k USD. Spent almost a year designing and fabricating mounting frame, cooling & exhaust systems, cowls, remote oil filter/cooler and adding sensors for a compatible EMS. The proof will be in the pudding, but I hope to join Glenn Crowder who regularly flies his 125 hp carburated Sube powered Classic out of his home field at 5000' ASL in Colorado. Stay tuned, Fred A194


    Message 8


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:14:28 PM PST US
    From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax
    Hey Graham, Why 6 EGTs and CHTs?? (Hope this finds you and Joan well.) Reg Tony Renshaw On 18/04/2011, at 5:17 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > Rick > there's a lot of good experience out there for you to benefit from. (I don 't have much) > I recommend a good engine monitor with 6 EGTs and 6 CHTs, Mixture distribu tion is tricky and important. > Graham > > > From: AirEupora <AirEupora@sbcglobal.net> > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, 17 April, 2011 18:41:04 > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax > > > You are right Kevin. Trying to compare a Jabiru to a Rotax 912 or 914 is l ike comparing Apples and Oranges. Both taste good. > > The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate. If I get to fly 100 hour this coming yea r it will cost me $500.00 dollars this year over your cost for fuel. I can s till divide that into the initial cost firewall forward. > > I looked on the web pages today and Rotax 912ULS is 21K plus the cost of f irewall forward vs. 18K for everything on the Jabiru. > > Rick Stockton > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337229#337====== ==================http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Eurp; --> > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 9


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:15:17 PM PST US
    From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
    Graham and co, I was thinking in terms if a 4 cylinder Rotax and Realize your advice pertained to the 6 cylinder Jabiru and to be able to monitor each cylinder. (Buenos Aires to Sydney yesterday. Brain is about Over International dateline, or the Pacific somewhere, certainly not in my body.) Reg Tony Renshaw On 18/04/2011, at 5:17 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > Rick > there's a lot of good experience out there for you to benefit from. (I don 't have much) > I recommend a good engine monitor with 6 EGTs and 6 CHTs, Mixture distribu tion is tricky and important. > Graham > > > From: AirEupora <AirEupora@sbcglobal.net> > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, 17 April, 2011 18:41:04 > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax > > > You are right Kevin. Trying to compare a Jabiru to a Rotax 912 or 914 is l ike comparing Apples and Oranges. Both taste good. > > The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate. If I get to fly 100 hour this coming yea r it will cost me $500.00 dollars this year over your cost for fuel. I can s till divide that into the initial cost firewall forward. > > I looked on the web pages today and Rotax 912ULS is 21K plus the cost of f irewall forward vs. 18K for everything on the Jabiru. > > Rick Stockton > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337229#337====== ==================http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Eurp; --> > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >




    Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   europa-list@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
  • Web Forum Interface To Lists
  •   http://forums.matronics.com
  • Matronics List Wiki
  •   http://wiki.matronics.com
  • 7-Day List Browse
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list
  • Browse Europa-List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list
  • Browse Other Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Live Online Chat!
  •   http://www.matronics.com/chat
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contribution

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --