---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/20/11: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:47 AM - Re: The demise of AvGas (Nigel Graham) 2. 04:25 AM - Re: The demise of AvGas (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 3. 04:36 AM - Re: The demise of AvGas (Robert Borger) 4. 08:18 AM - Re: 914 TACH/EMSD-10 (h&jeuropa) 5. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: 914 TACH/EMSD-10 (Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard) 6. 10:17 AM - Re: New "constant speed" blade profile offered by Warp Drive for higher speed aircraft (glenn crowder) 7. 10:47 AM - Re: The demise of AvGas (rparigoris) 8. 11:45 AM - Re: Engine Hoods (Bud Yerly) 9. 01:47 PM - Re: The demise of AvGas (Frans Veldman) 10. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: The demise of AvGas (Frans Veldman) 11. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: The demise of AvGas (Greg Fuchs) 12. 08:55 PM - Honda? (scouttwo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:46 AM PST US From: Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: The demise of AvGas Bob, My comment was a rather facetious throw-away, but as so often happens on this forum, it sparked an interesting and well informed debate. I had not considered the new generation of extremely lightweight high-pressure wound-carbon composite tanks used for diving and fire-fighting breathing apparatus. If I think more seriously about applying LPG to aviation, there are a number of drawbacks. LPG has a lower calorific value than AvGas (producing about 45,000 kJ/Kg), meaning that you would have to burn about 15% more to achieve the same work and that equates to a reduced range or the need for a larger capacity tank to achieve an equivalent range. Most auto installations have to be started on petrol (gas) before switching to LPG, meaning that two fuel sources with appropriate switching would need to be fitted. I haven't even begun to consider how you would actually get LPG to your aircraft! Talking of alternative fuels/engines, I once got very excited when I saw an APU turbine buried in the tail of a Chinook helicopter. This minuscule engine belted out around 150 HP and weighed nothing. I pictured it sitting in the nose of a Europa. Then I heard how much fuel it burnt in an hour and realised that if it ever did power a Europa, the endurance would be around half an hour with existing tanks. Aviation is a pile of clever ideas finely balanced on top of compromises. Just when you think you have found the perfect solution, physics creeps up from behind and bites you on the bum! Nigel On 19/04/2011 15:36, Robert Borger wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Robert Borger > > Nigel, > > In all seriousness, an LP tank can be constructed from composite materials and, thus, be kept quite light. The issue with an LP thank is more form factor than weight. It must be cylindro-spherical in shape making locating it within an airframe more an issue. LP is also quite energy dense, even more than diesel, so it could be much smaller, lower volume, than a normal AvGas tank. Same with LNG, another option in the same category. > > Frans, > > You may be correct that there will be composite LP (or LNG) tanks of more random sizes. I have not seen them over here yet. Now all we need is to talk our FBOs into storing another fuel type and figure out how to meter it so you don't over fill. But that's all technical stuff and can probably be worked out. I doubt you will see switch fuel aviation engines. Too much complication with multiple carbs, plumbing, multiple fuel tanks, etc. > > Diesel engines, if it weren't for their weight issues, would be great as aero engines. Gobs of torque at low to moderate RPM lets you swing a big fat air mover at efficient RPM without complications like PSRUs. > > AvGas, as 100LL, isn't going away real soon. There just isn't a suitable replacement at this time and this fact has been recognized by the EPA and other organizations. 100LL WILL go away at some point in the future, but that point has not been set and, hopefully, won't be set till there is a suitable replacement. There are a few contenders for the title of 100LL replacement but only one appears to be making headway in the effort. 100SF (100 Swift Fuel) appears to be in the lead at the present time. It is in the production pilot plant stage of evaluation. More information can be obtained through the Wikipedia (search avgas) and at http://www.swiftenterprises.net/ if you are interested. > > Bob > > On Apr 19, 2011, at 3:23, Nigel Graham wrote: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Nigel Graham >> >> >> >> On 19/04/2011 07:32, Frans Veldman wrote: >>> .....snip...... >>> ..... go straight to Diesel or propane. Here in the Netherlands about 1/3th of the >>> gas cars has been converted to run on propane (LPG) >> .........and just how much does a propane tank weigh and what would that do for the Europa's C of G and performance? ;-) >> >> Nigel > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:15 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: The demise of AvGas and many of us have the teeth marks to prove it ?;-)=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A__ ______________________________=0AFrom: Nigel Graham =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, 20 April, 2011 10 :44:12=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: The demise of AvGas=0A=0A=0A=0AAviation is a pile of clever ideas finely balanced on top of =0Acompromises. Just wh en you think you have found the perfect solution, =0Aphysics creeps up from behind and bites you on the bum!=0A=0ANigel ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: The demise of AvGas From: Robert Borger Graham, Amen! Bob Borger Do not archive... On Apr 20, 2011, at 6:18, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > and many of us have the teeth marks to prove it ?;-) > Graham > From: Nigel Graham > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, 20 April, 2011 10:44:12 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: The demise of AvGas > > > > Aviation is a pile of clever ideas finely balanced on top of > compromises. Just when you think you have found the perfect solution, > physics creeps up from behind and bites you on the bum! > > Nigel ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:17 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 914 TACH/EMSD-10 From: "h&jeuropa" Ferg & Gert, For a 914 on the TCU plug, pin 26 & 13 are used for the tach. I wired ours to our GRT EIS with 26 as ground (since diagram (fig 52 914 install manual) shows 26 going to the negative terminal of the tach) and 13 as signal. On the Rotax tach, there is a + sign next to terminal 1 and a - sign next to terminal 2, so I connected terminal 1 to +12, terminal 2 to ground & 26 of the TCU and terminal 3 to 13 of the TCU. For a 912 the diagram (figure 67 page 109 of 912 install manual) shows 23 to be the plug from the tach coil (shown as #24) and either wire can go to terminal 3 of the tach, the other wire goes to terminal 2 of the tach which also is connected to ground. Terminal 1 of the tach connects to +12. Hope this helps. Jim & Heather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337602#337602 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: 914 TACH/EMSD-10 From: Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard Hi Jim That info just did the job :) Thanks. Gert Den 20/04/2011 kl. 17.14 skrev h&jeuropa: > > Ferg & Gert, > > For a 914 on the TCU plug, pin 26 & 13 are used for the tach. I wired ours to our GRT EIS with 26 as ground (since diagram (fig 52 914 install manual) shows 26 going to the negative terminal of the tach) and 13 as signal. > > On the Rotax tach, there is a + sign next to terminal 1 and a - sign next to terminal 2, so I connected terminal 1 to +12, terminal 2 to ground & 26 of the TCU and terminal 3 to 13 of the TCU. > > For a 912 the diagram (figure 67 page 109 of 912 install manual) shows 23 to be the plug from the tach coil (shown as #24) and either wire can go to terminal 3 of the tach, the other wire goes to terminal 2 of the tach which also is connected to ground. Terminal 1 of the tach connects to +12. > > Hope this helps. > > Jim & Heather > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337602#337602 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:17 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: New "constant speed" blade profile offered by Warp Drive for higher speed aircraft Fred - thats not my bird. I have no idea whose plane that is! Glenn From: fklein@orcasonline.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: New "constant speed" blade profile offered by War p Drive for higher speed aircraft On Apr 19=2C 2011=2C at 8:12 PM=2C glenn crowder wrote: Just a heads up that Warp Drive is offering what they call a "constant spee d" blade profile that they claim offers higher speed capability than their standard profile. $60 extra per blade. http://www.warpdriveprops.com Hey Glennster=2C Is that your ship in the Warpdrive catalogue?...Looks like you got around t o painting your cowl...please send me some pixs...! Fred do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:15 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: The demise of AvGas From: "rparigoris" Here are some thoughts on using Propane in a Europa: **Remember you need to use liquid propane going to the motor. Somehow you need to have a way of heating the liquid propane where it has a phase change to vapor and is trying to get to approx -42F **In the USA it is hard to find 100% Propane all the time. The boiling point of propane is lower than the boiling point of Butane, thus for a given temperature Butane has a higher vapor pressure. In the winter, (and sometimes in the summer if it is old fill up) you buy a mixture of Propane and Butane. Butane has less BTUs per gallon than Propane. OK so you now want to know just how much power loss there is going to be (and decreased range) compared to 100% Propane with the fuel you are using. You need to keep the vapor pressure high enough to allow full power and low enough to prevent the tank blow off valve from venting. You can warm tanks in the winter with electric heater, or you can inject Nitrogen. The problem with Nitrogen (or Argon or other inert gasses, I think perhaps CO2 will work) is if you don't use all the fuel up, if it gets hot out, the valve may vent. **In aluminium and Stainless tanks you need to over size them by ~ 25% to allow for the expansion of the liquid fuel. Thus you need a physical tank size of 25 gallons to carry 20 gallons **I am a Hot Air Balloonist and build my own burners and tanks. For some time 10 gallon aluminium tanks (capacity is 12.5 gallons) were very common. There were some 15 gallon tanks but boy were they expensive. I used to garbage pick forkllift tanks which hold ~ 7.5 gallons (capacity ~ 10 gallons) and cut the bottom off one and the top off the other and weld them back together. One problem with many tanks were that they used too thin a wall in the dip tube and they would crack and fail. I would just extend the dip tube and make it more robust. Voila! 15 gallon tank for cheap. Anyway tankage kills you. With a 10 gallon Worthington cylinder it weighs over 30 pounds! Anyway keep in mind the tanks have to be over sized to allow for expansion. **WATER IN FUEL IS BAD! When you change phase from liquid to vapor, things get cold. The best scenario is the restriction is at the heat exchanger and is warm. That said if you have any restriction before, it will get below freezing in a hurry. If there is moisture in the fuel it will freeze. Best way is to inject under high pressure some Methanol to be sure. PITA. Of course you could drain tank, open it and pour in. You also want to be able to get inside tank and clean it out from time to time. You can't believe the debris that collects. **I have refueled many hundreds of gallons by simple transfer method. All you need to do is connect a full tank to an empty tank, liquid to liquid line and open the vent on the empty tank. In 5 or 10 minutes 10 gallons is transfered. You can speed the process by raising the full tank above the empty tank and heating the full tank or pressurizing it with some inert gas. So if you were to garbage pick some old fork lift tanks, they are a nice size to carry the stuff around with. BTW if you garbage pick several forklift tanks and gang them together in parallel, they make a nice compressor tank! If you garbage pick a refrigerator (or two or three) compressor/s they work well for pumping up the tanks. Yes there is the hassle of transporting a lot of propane in your vehicle and the fact dumping propane into the atmosphere does not do the the ozone layer any good. **Did you ever see Cozy or Long Easy baggage pods? Anyway seems like an ideal thing to wind your own propane tanks in a nice aerodynamic shape. I would bet that you the wing could support more if some of the weight is not at the root? Anyway here's a pic: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=82116 **I was planning a long distance flight for a while back and decided to use Kerosene as the fuel of choice. Tankage can be unbelievable light. Just hang 1 gallon plastic milk containers from the balloon and discard them when used up. Idea was to pour into one of my 15 gallon garbage picked tanks and pressurize with either propane and use a burner similar to a current hot air balloon burner, or use the monstrosity I made which was a leaf blower connected with a flex shaft to a home oil burner pump. It went to preheating coils and jets. Worked great except it had a motor running that would be annoying after a while. The other problem is burned Kerosene kills balloon fabric, so that needs to be in the equation. Anyway even if you discard lightweight tanks after they are spent, compared to kerosene or gasoline net is less BTUs for more weight. That said it is far far far better than if you compared to the very best electric system out there. Why doesn't someone lend their unfinished project to Mythbusters along with this post?? I say it is plausible! I guess you could use an oil heat exchanger, but water may be easier. Might be nice to add 16 to 18" extra span to each wing where you attach the pods with a full length CF spar? If you want to make a new wing with internal tanks, be sure to allow for easy cleaning and inspection. Can you say BLEVI? (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnsAV1ph2CU Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337612#337612 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:05 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Engine Hoods Fred, I was using the weight on the shipping document to be honest, I haven't really weighted it until today. While waiting for my wife to give me a ride to the airport, I weighed my cowl with the very scientific scale from Wal-Mart and it is 8 pounds finished painted and with vinyl graphics. I have a lot of glass and fixes to this old cowl as it was one that was improperly cut (I scrounged everything). So probably a normal cowl is 5-6 pounds finished. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 7:20 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Engine Hoods On Apr 19, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: Making a car hood to hold shape and the whole cowl only weighing 10 pounds is quite a task. (OK, my painter puts on a lot of paint so it's 15.) Bud...are you saying the stock Europa cowl, upper plus lower, weighs 10 to 15 pounds? Hmmmmm...my upper weighs 5.7#, lower weighs about 13# including inlet and exit ducts for the twin rads...all filled and sanded, but no paint... Fred http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:42 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: The demise of AvGas On 04/20/2011 11:44 AM, Nigel Graham wrote: > If I think more seriously about applying LPG to aviation, there are a > number of drawbacks. LPG has a lower calorific value than AvGas > (producing about 45,000 kJ/Kg), meaning that you would have to burn > about 15% more to achieve the same work and that equates to a reduced > range or the need for a larger capacity tank to achieve an equivalent > range. Not completely right if you take into account that you can have a higher compression ratio, so taking out more power, and that LPG by its very nature has no atomization problems and blends extremely well with oxygen, also enhancing efficiency. > Most auto installations have to be started on petrol (gas) before > switching to LPG, Not right. Almost all cars start perfect on LPG. > I haven't even begun to consider how you would actually get LPG to your > aircraft! With a removable tank? It could be done. I bet the Rotax would run quite good on LPG without any modifications, except for a small extension on the carbs to feed the LPG in. Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:12 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: The demise of AvGas On 04/20/2011 07:42 PM, rparigoris wrote: > **Remember you need to use liquid propane going to the motor. Somehow > you need to have a way of heating the liquid propane where it has a > phase change to vapor and is trying to get to approx -42F ** In the Netherlands we have a few million cars driving on LPG. All these problems have been solved long time ago. The pressure regulator has water connections and is connected to the cooling system, this takes care of vaporizing the fuel. > You can warm tanks in the winter with electric heater, or > you can inject Nitrogen. No need for all this: just use a mixture of propane and butane. I have been driving the whole winter without using any gas, just LPG. Even for starting in temperatures below freezing. No problem. Frans ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:47 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: The demise of AvGas No problem. Just do all that stuff right before you are headed out of the shop for the day. :) Remember to take your pat alligator with you! Greg -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigoris Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 10:42 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: The demise of AvGas --> Here are some thoughts on using Propane in a Europa: ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:01 PM PST US From: "scouttwo" Subject: Europa-List: Honda? - I was just looking at the last line of your post on the forum You have a Honda CBR1000 engine powering your baby?- craig - Sure, why not? The parts will be done in a few months. Major firewall surgery is required to make kr-2 like front end with tall spring gear. It will ride a little low on the new firewall, but i like the profile modelled on the computer - p40 ish Big oil cooler, piston oil jetting, fully functioning modular factory gearbox rocks. Big woodie race prop - shift down/winde out, 2000 fpm climb? 100bhp @ 6k, 120 @ 7k, 140 @ 8k, 150 @ 9k, 160 @ 10k. Burn it up, wear it out and re-install in cycle frame! Nic - Sorry about the politics ya'll ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.