---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/25/11: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:07 AM - Fuel Hose Clips/ Clamps Question (JonSmith) 2. 12:54 AM - Re: Fuel Hose Clips/ Clamps Question (Pete Lawless) 3. 09:36 AM - Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri (Allan Skanderup Nielsen) 4. 11:00 AM - Re: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri (Fred Klein) 5. 11:19 AM - Re: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri (G-IANI) 6. 11:24 AM - Re: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri (Fred Klein) 7. 01:46 PM - Re: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri (Bud Yerly) 8. 03:16 PM - Re: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri (Karl Heindl) 9. 04:14 PM - Re: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri (Greg Fuchs) 10. 06:07 PM - Re: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri (Karl Heindl) 11. 11:23 PM - Re: Fuel Hose Clips/ Clamps Question (JonSmith) 12. 11:42 PM - Bonding of upper fuselage (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:07:04 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Hose Clips/ Clamps Question From: "JonSmith" Hi, Could anyone recommend a better type of fuel hose clip than the standard Jubilee-type clip that is supplied by the factory and if so where I could buy them in the UK? (For the 6 & 8 mm hose which I think is 9-13 mm clips) I don't want to go down the route of better fittings such as aeroquip or AN fittings yet - maybe a winter job, just want some better clips as with my heavyhandedness I seem to have about a 50% success rate with the jubilees (keep stripping the d*mn things!). Thanks, Jon -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340893#340893 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:18 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Hose Clips/ Clamps Question Hi Jon Demon Tweaks have Mikalor Stainless Clamps which are tightened with a nut and bolt. http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Fasteners_Hose_Clips/Hose_Clips/198 8 Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JonSmith Sent: 25 May 2011 07:59 Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Hose Clips/ Clamps Question Hi, Could anyone recommend a better type of fuel hose clip than the standard Jubilee-type clip that is supplied by the factory and if so where I could buy them in the UK? (For the 6 & 8 mm hose which I think is 9-13 mm clips) I don't want to go down the route of better fittings such as aeroquip or AN fittings yet - maybe a winter job, just want some better clips as with my heavyhandedness I seem to have about a 50% success rate with the jubilees (keep stripping the d*mn things!). Thanks, Jon -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340893#340893 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:37 AM PST US From: Allan Skanderup Nielsen Subject: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri I have reached the stage where it would be natural to fit the main landing gear as access is easy and the top moulding is not in the way yet=2C but ac cording to the flow chart in the manual page 10T-1 I should not fit the mai n landing gear before the top moulding is fitted. My question is: Is it allright to fit the main landing gear before the top moulding? Kind regards=2C Allan Skanderup Nielsen Kit no. 0622=2C Denmark. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:37 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri On May 25, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Allan Skanderup Nielsen wrote: > My question is: Is it allright to fit the main landing gear before > the top moulding? Allan, Notwithstanding the sequence outlined in the Europa manual, I've done exactly what you're considering. I did so however only after making a substantial "cradle" frame in which the lower half of the fuselage sits in a manner which ensures that the moulding is fully supported to maintain its shape. I also used clecos at 12" o.c. in order to be able to temporarily secure the upper fuselage to the lower half. In the process of doing this, I worked hard to ensure the fuselage was level and true by using my digital level and string lines fore and aft. I don't regret a bit my decision to defer bonding the upper and lower fuselage mouldings together until the last possible moment. Happy building, Fred ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:26 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri Allan The cockpit module, once bonded in, makes the forward part of the aircraft very stiff. I was advised back in 2001 that it would be OK and have now done two aircraft this way and both l worked OK. In addition I recommend that you fit everything you can think of before the top goes on. With the top off these take half the time that they do later, with the top on. Think about your cable and pipe runs and install clips for the cables, install the ground plane for the transponder, any supports for the rudder cable runs or cable adjusters. While the top is off you can invert it to facilitate jobs such as the head lining panel, cable ducts up to the head lining, stiffening support behind the fuel filler. So leave the top moulding off as long as possible. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:38 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri On May 25, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Allan Skanderup Nielsen wrote: > My question is: Is it allright to fit the main landing gear before > the top moulding? Allan, I should add to my previous post that my plane is a monowheel, not a trigear. Fred ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:47 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri Alan, Not to but in, but the reason for putting the top on is that that makes the fuselage quite stiff. If the wing pins and tail plane tubes as well as tail post are all square and level, it would also be ridged enough to stay that way. So when you jig the aircraft to put the trigear on a closed out fuselage, any slight warpage from the installation of the gear would be resisted. Please note that with the top on, the glassing is challenging, you will have some back aches, chest bruising and appreciate people who are five foot and 100 lbs. with see in the dark capability. With proper jigging it is quite easy to install the gear with the top off. As Ian and Fred have commented, it is far more comfortable spending the time peering in over the side with an unobstructed view of your work. It is necessary to build a platform for the fuselage that allows you to get the tail and fuselage alignment spot on. I even cleco on the top and prep for glue up as it isn't perfectly square all the time right out of the box. If the one side of the top is cut 1 mm shorter than the other, you have a leaning tail post. Sometimes the tail plane tube is a bit off from the actual wing pins so they need to be shored up to level. Put timbers from the floor to the tail tube and shore up until level with the wing pins and I have always had good luck with a nice straight aircraft. I recommend gluing in your baggage bay in as well.(Yes, I put the wing pins or bolts in the fuselage and level the plane by putting a 40 inch long angle stock on the bar and compare to the tailplane tube, rather than with a level across the seat back. Leveling across the seat back has not been as reliable in my experience.) Once jigged solid I can consider the gear. Once all jigged, then take your time to get the fuselage centerline scribed or marked to the floor, then set your trigear angle stock jig piece precisely. Glue it all in place to the floor to prevent movement during initial assembly. Then do your leg assembly in an upright fashion with good posture and lighting. Cut paper templates of your gear braces out and check for fit rather than trusting your templates. The templates are very close, but your holes will vary a little and a nip and tuck may be needed for a good fit. The glass it up. Finally, the placement of wiring, brake lines, fuel tubing, rudder cable guides and fairleads, autopilots, ELTs, antennas, fuel drains, battery boxes, solenoids, tailplane trim bar travel, tie downs, the baggage bay, flap drives, etc. can all be installed comfortably. I even trial fit my tabs on top of the tail post and cut my bump stop before final glue up of the top. Just add Redux and glue on the top when ready. It is all about the prep. If you have problems jigging the aircraft in your shop, then by all means put the top on, get someone five foot and 100 pounds and pay them to glass in the gear. If no person of that stature lives around you, then build up a platform to stand on, buy some nice lighting which is cool and work from the sides with plenty of ventilation. It is hard on the back, but can be done with only a couple days needed for back recovery. Only a neophyte looks at the top on the airplane and thinks, "there, the fuselage is done, lets go fly". Better to have everything open until well into the project then a closeout party later on when everything you can think of is done on your punch list for the fuselage and wings internals. No one ever sees all the details inside that big simple model airplane shell, but those details are the real part of aircraft building... Regards, Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations, Inc. Europa Tech Support www.customflightcreations.com (813) 653-4989 ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Skanderup Nielsen To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:33 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri I have reached the stage where it would be natural to fit the main landing gear as access is easy and the top moulding is not in the way yet, but according to the flow chart in the manual page 10T-1 I should not fit the main landing gear before the top moulding is fitted. My question is: Is it allright to fit the main landing gear before the top moulding? Kind regards, Allan Skanderup Nielsen Kit no. 0622, Denmark. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:34 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri Allan=2C I agree with all the other builders. I did practically everything before pu tting the top on. Even painted the bottom=2C because that is easy in the in verted position. I had no need to crawl into the tail after the top was bon ded on. When you put in all the wall and head lining=2C leave extra materia l along the edges so you can trim that off afterwards. Only the wings shoul d be fitted AFTER the top is on. Karl From: allan_skanderup@hotmail.com Subject: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri I have reached the stage where it would be natural to fit the main landing gear as access is easy and the top moulding is not in the way yet=2C but ac cording to the flow chart in the manual page 10T-1 I should not fit the mai n landing gear before the top moulding is fitted. My question is: Is it allright to fit the main landing gear before the top moulding? Kind regards=2C Allan Skanderup Nielsen Kit no. 0622=2C Denmark. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:08 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri --->"Only the wings should be fitted AFTER the top is on." I too, am trying to do everything with the top off, to not have to crawl back into the dungeon of doom. One more climb will be needed probably, to set the final position of the mass balance 'H' tower in the back, even with its false fuselage hat. It conforms to the fuse, but does not seem to adequately position itself with the top mounted down. I am hoping that having clecoes every 3-4 inches on the main fuselage, and every 2-3 inches (more where needed, in both cases) in the tail area, and the top in its final pre-glue resting state including any spacers, will be an adequate replacement for a glued-in fuse...to allow wing lift and flap pin plus actuator installation, and not have them move later. Seem ok? Anyone do this...or just thoughts? _____ Allan, I agree with all the other builders. I did practically everything before putting the top on. Even painted the bottom, because that is easy in the inverted position. I had no need to crawl into the tail after the top was bonded on. When you put in all the wall and head lining, leave extra material along the edges so you can trim that off afterwards. Only the wings should be fitted AFTER the top is on. Karl ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:32 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri Greg=2C I think I used clecoes to position the top=2C and then I had a load of smal l screws and I put them wherever I could see a gap. After about 5 hours of redux cure I undid the screws about 1/4 turn to make them easy to remove ne xt day. Karl From: gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fitting of main landing gear on XS-Tri --->"Only the wings should be fitted AFTER the top is on." I too=2C am trying to do everything with the top off=2C to not have to crawl back into the dungeon of doom. One more climb will be nee ded probably=2C to set the final position of the mass balance 'H' tower in the back=2C even with its false fuselage hat. It conforms to the fuse=2C but does not s eem to adequately position itself with the top mounted down. I am hoping that having clecoes every 3-4 inches on the main fuselage=2C and every 2-3 inches (more where needed=2C in both cases) in the tail area=2C and the top in its final pre-glue resting state including any spacers=2C will be an adequate replacement for a glued-in fuse...to allow w ing lift and flap pin plus actuator installation=2C and not have them move later. Seem ok? Anyone do this...or just thoughts? Allan=2C I agree with all the other builders. I did practically everything before putting the top on. Even painted the bottom=2C because that is easy in the inverted position. I had no need to crawl into the tail after the top was b onded on. When you put in all the wall and head lining=2C leave extra material al ong the edges so you can trim that off afterwards. Only the wings should be fitted AFTER the top is on. Karl ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:35 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Hose Clips/ Clamps Question From: "JonSmith" Many thanks for the replies. Excellent - nut and bolt - that's what I need! Philip - I've sent you an e-mail to your hotmail. Cheers. -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341074#341074 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:17 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: Bonding of upper fuselage On a related subject, regardless of when its done, I tried something which may have merit...in my case I'm very satisfied with the results. When trial fitting the fuselage (using clecoes on 6" ctrs from firewall to baggage bay bulkhead, 12" ctrs. back towards the tail, and then 6" ctrs. or as necessary around the horizontal tailplane) I noticed that the joggle joint between upper and lower fuselage mouldings did not give a nice vertical plane across the intersection...an issue easily solved of course with a couple of millimeters of filler, but one which I'd hoped to minimize. What I did was use my 3/4" hole saw to make a bunch of FG washers in 2 thicknesses. The pilot drill of the holesaw made a nice 1/4" hole in the washers. Using a scrap of FG w/ a semicircular 3/4" hole in one end, I had a nice little tool to push/slide the washers between the joggle at each clecoe, going down the length of the joint on port and starboard. In each instance, I could add whatever thickness of washers was necessary in order to align the adjacent edges of the upper and lower fuselage along the entire length of the joint, marking the fuselage w/ the washer count at each clecoe. Then w/ the upper fuselage removed, I used 5 min. epoxy to bond the washers around each clecoe hole. Stiff floxed Redux was applied to the lower fuselage, making sure that there was a thick enough coat to ensure full bedding w/ some "squeeze- out". I experienced no bulging between clecoes. Due to the special qualities of our floxed-Redux, I have no concerns about using it to fill the gap caused by my FG washer-spacers...If anyone thinks I'm off-base on this from a structural standpoint, please say so! The result is my horizontal fuselage joint finished out smooth w/ minimal filler, except back at where the seam goes diagonal and then aft above the tailplane. A couple of pixs below. Happily building, Fred PS: I don't regret having 4 helpers present to place the upper fuselage in position after the Redux was applied to the joint. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.