Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:44 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (David Joyce)
2. 01:14 AM - Flap cross tube (Peter Harrod)
3. 01:34 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Pete Lawless)
4. 02:47 AM - Re: Flap cross tube (craig)
5. 05:45 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Robert Borger)
6. 07:26 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Ken Carpenter)
7. 08:30 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (rparigoris)
8. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Fred Klein)
9. 09:16 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (rparigoris)
10. 01:02 PM - UK source for 1000-2000 wet and dry and compounding paste (graeme bird)
11. 05:31 PM - Re: Flap cross tube (Greg Fuchs)
12. 05:53 PM - Re: Flap cross tube problem (Greg Fuchs)
13. 06:02 PM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Greg Fuchs)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. |
Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can collapse.
My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the gear box
is taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you need go no
further.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey J Paris" <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:15 PM
Subject: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure.
Hi Bud,
We had a major problem today, during a taxi and a stationary run-up our
landing gear collapsed and nuked our prop and pancaked our airplane onto the
tarmac at my local airport. Needless to say I'm feeling a bit devastated,
but I'm very grateful as my Father pointed out ,"that thank god I wasn't
taking off or landing when the gear failed." I had to agree wholeheartedly!
Anyways, any ideas or has anyone else out there suffered the same problem?
During my build I definitely was concerned that the "Gear" handle was doing
3 jobs, deploying/retracting the main gear, flaps and outriggers. My
aircraft has been on the mains since last September and has been moved in
and out of the hanger many times, what gives besides the gear? I have
attached some pictures that may shed some light to your experienced eye.
Looks like a total tear down for the engine? Mod 51 incorporated. The
aircraft is insured, my Father was a successful Insurance Agent and we are
covered pending an inspection from claims.
Accident Information regarding N127ZP Europa Monowheel Classic.
Pilot/Owner: Jeff Paris at controls at time of accident, Phase I of ground
testing.
When: June 3, 2011 approximately 12:30 PM at hanger located SDC perfect VFR
conditions.
Where: Parked on Taxiway on south side of field
How and What: Was test running engine up on taxiway near hanger. Aircraft
was stationary with parking brake engaged. During engine run-up pilot looked
down to close throttle after successful run-up and noticed that the landing
gear handle was bent/bending to the left. Pilot immediately attempted to
shut down engine when the gear collapsed and propeller struck the ground and
stopped engine. At time of preflight inspection and up to accident all
safety latches for the landing gear on the aircraft appeared to be
functioning and engaged as designed. Aircraft dismantled and stored in
owners hanger, pending review of damage.
I guess we all heard the saying there are two types of retractable pilots
one that has had a gear up landing and those that will, I didn't expect to
have a collapse just sitt ing there monitoring the gauges. . . WTF!
Thanks for your time and consideration.
Jeff Paris
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Kit 481 cross tube length 1132mm.
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| Subject: | N127ZP Landing gear failure. |
Hi All
Looking at the pictures the slot for the retract lever looks very wide.
Mine is just wide enough to let the lever slide easily. It is noticeable
that the gear has collapsed because the lever has twisted and deformed.
Is there a connection?
Regards
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce
Sent: 04 June 2011 08:41
Subject: Re: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure.
Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can collapse.
My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the gear box
is taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you need go no
further.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey J Paris" <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:15 PM
Subject: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure.
Hi Bud,
We had a major problem today, during a taxi and a stationary run-up our
landing gear collapsed and nuked our prop and pancaked our airplane onto the
tarmac at my local airport. Needless to say I'm feeling a bit devastated,
but I'm very grateful as my Father pointed out ,"that thank god I wasn't
taking off or landing when the gear failed." I had to agree wholeheartedly!
Anyways, any ideas or has anyone else out there suffered the same problem?
During my build I definitely was concerned that the "Gear" handle was doing
3 jobs, deploying/retracting the main gear, flaps and outriggers. My
aircraft has been on the mains since last September and has been moved in
and out of the hanger many times, what gives besides the gear? I have
attached some pictures that may shed some light to your experienced eye.
Looks like a total tear down for the engine? Mod 51 incorporated. The
aircraft is insured, my Father was a successful Insurance Agent and we are
covered pending an inspection from claims.
Accident Information regarding N127ZP Europa Monowheel Classic.
Pilot/Owner: Jeff Paris at controls at time of accident, Phase I of ground
testing.
When: June 3, 2011 approximately 12:30 PM at hanger located SDC perfect VFR
conditions.
Where: Parked on Taxiway on south side of field
How and What: Was test running engine up on taxiway near hanger. Aircraft
was stationary with parking brake engaged. During engine run-up pilot looked
down to close throttle after successful run-up and noticed that the landing
gear handle was bent/bending to the left. Pilot immediately attempted to
shut down engine when the gear collapsed and propeller struck the ground and
stopped engine. At time of preflight inspection and up to accident all
safety latches for the landing gear on the aircraft appeared to be
functioning and engaged as designed. Aircraft dismantled and stored in
owners hanger, pending review of damage.
I guess we all heard the saying there are two types of retractable pilots
one that has had a gear up landing and those that will, I didn't expect to
have a collapse just sitt ing there monitoring the gauges. . . WTF!
Thanks for your time and consideration.
Jeff Paris
--
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Kit 577 1125 installed (some trimming was required as per build manual to
allow full retraction without jamming)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harrod
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 6:11 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Flap cross tube
<peterandbettyharrod@btopenworld.com>
Kit 481 cross tube length 1132mm.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. |
Jeff,
Agreed, failure of the over center lock allowed the gear to retract.
Rotax has a set procedure for checking the engine after a prop strike. http://www.rotax-owner.com/all-videos has a general prop strike inspection video and two videos showing the procedure to check the crankshaft runout and to check for crankshaft distortion. These checks should best be made by an experienced Rotax repair shop.
Looks like you are just east of Rochester. One of the frequent contributors to
the Rotax Engines List is a fellow who operates a Rotax Shop in the Buffalo area.
If I remember correctly, his name is Thom Riddle. I'll see if I can find
one of his postings with contact information. Here is what information is available:
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
You can probably find him through a White Pages search or contact him through the
list.
I hope this helps.
Good luck,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232
http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046
Europa Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Jun 4, 2011, at 2:41, David Joyce wrote:
>
> Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can collapse.
My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the gear box is
taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you need go no further.
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. |
Had the same thing happen to me but I did not have mod 51. The tunnel looked like
yours too. I had to replace the prop blades but did not do anything to the
rotax. Maybe should have but all is well 550 hrs and eight years later. There
is a problem with the gear being over center or something like that. I recall
filing on a stop to get it to be just a bit more over center. You can lift
the plane by a hoist attached to the engine. Suggest a conference with Bud
Yerly.
Looks like a beautiful plane except for the damage.
Sent from my iPad
Ken Carpenter
On Jun 4, 2011, at 12:41 AM, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can collapse.
My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the gear box is
taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you need go no further.
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey J Paris" <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
> To: <budyerly@msn.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:15 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure.
>
>
> Hi Bud,
>
> We had a major problem today, during a taxi and a stationary run-up our landing
gear collapsed and nuked our prop and pancaked our airplane onto the tarmac
at my local airport. Needless to say I'm feeling a bit devastated, but I'm very
grateful as my Father pointed out ,"that thank god I wasn't taking off or landing
when the gear failed." I had to agree wholeheartedly! Anyways, any ideas
or has anyone else out there suffered the same problem? During my build I definitely
was concerned that the "Gear" handle was doing 3 jobs, deploying/retracting
the main gear, flaps and outriggers. My aircraft has been on the mains
since last September and has been moved in and out of the hanger many times, what
gives besides the gear? I have attached some pictures that may shed some light
to your experienced eye.
>
> Looks like a total tear down for the engine? Mod 51 incorporated. The aircraft
is insured, my Father was a successful Insurance Agent and we are covered pending
an inspection from claims.
>
>
> Accident Information regarding N127ZP Europa Monowheel Classic.
>
> Pilot/Owner: Jeff Paris at controls at time of accident, Phase I of ground testing.
>
> When: June 3, 2011 approximately 12:30 PM at hanger located SDC perfect VFR conditions.
>
> Where: Parked on Taxiway on south side of field
>
> How and What: Was test running engine up on taxiway near hanger. Aircraft was
stationary with parking brake engaged. During engine run-up pilot looked down
to close throttle after successful run-up and noticed that the landing gear handle
was bent/bending to the left. Pilot immediately attempted to shut down engine
when the gear collapsed and propeller struck the ground and stopped engine.
At time of preflight inspection and up to accident all safety latches for
the landing gear on the aircraft appeared to be functioning and engaged as designed.
Aircraft dismantled and stored in owners hanger, pending review of damage.
>
> I guess we all heard the saying there are two types of retractable pilots one
that has had a gear up landing and those that will, I didn't expect to have a
collapse just sitt ing there monitoring the gauges. . . WTF!
>
> Thanks for your time and consideration.
>
> Jeff Paris
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. |
Hi Jeff
When working on my XS gear of A265, I made a jig and fixture to
observe and allow myself to fully understand how the gear worked.
I was able to make a measuring jig and to my horror my undercarriage
mounting frame was allowing one side to be on center, and the other under center.
I believe there is a good chance this is a recipe for the disaster you and Ken
experienced.
You want both sides over center by at least 1/16".
There is no mention in the manual of checking this or just how important it is
to be over center, but keep in mind not too much over center or you can bend components
on the under carriage mounting frame.
BTW on early Classic undercarriage mounting frames there was a mod to add more
steel and melt it in place. I forget the number of the mod or bulletin.
I urged Steve D. to check his, and his needed attention as well.
I ended up lopped off the stops to allow about 1/8" overcenter, then Reduxed in
place a nice piece of hard durometer polyurethane obtained from McMaster in addition
to using a #3 bolt to hold the slug of Polyurethane in place. The Polyurethane
allows for a small amount of shock absorption, but even if it were to
fail, only 1/8" overcenter could be achieved.
it's been a while and I forget exactly how i made my measuring tool, but going
from memory now, I made something that went inside the LG08 large diameter pivot
that had a pin central located the same diameter as the pin at the base of
LG08, which is also the same diameter as the pin (LG04) that the bottom shock
absorber plate pivots on.
Anyway you have now 3 pins the same diameter. using a thin steel rule you can measure
to see if they are absolute in alignment (which would mean they are on
center) or if the bottom LG08 pin is a bit forward (over center) like you want.
Here arew some drawings:
http://www.europa-aircraft.biz/upload/cmb_29m_landinggear_mono.pdf
BTW to save yourself at a remote airport or if you need to get off
runway quick, John Hurst mentioned you could remove right stabilator, remove right
wing, take seat cushions on put under fuse, and roll plane on right side,
pull gear down, get stuck and then roll your bird off the runway.
Good luck.
Ron P.
BTW looks like Jab, not Rotax, not sure procedure on Jab for prop strike.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342042#342042
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. |
On Jun 4, 2011, at 8:26 AM, rparigoris wrote:
> When working on my XS gear of A265, I made a jig and fixture to
> observe and allow myself to fully understand how the gear worked.
> I was able to make a measuring jig and to my horror my undercarriage
> mounting frame was allowing one side to be on center, and the other
> under center.
Following the advice of Kingsley Hurst, I studied this condition at
length and I too found that one of the two stops on the LG mounting
frame needed some filing in order for them to make contact
simultaneously. As clever and simple as the retraction design is, a
high level of precision appears to be essential for it to function
properly.
Fred
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. |
Hi Fred
When you filed the stops to allow LG08s contact to occur at the same time, did
you insure that in fact both LG08s were over center?
How much did you go over center?
>From memory I needed to take 3/16" off one stop and 1/8" off the other. There
was only a hollow tube left on each side.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342047#342047
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| Subject: | UK source for 1000-2000 wet and dry and compounding paste |
Top paint coats are on and I am ready to compound, can anyone in the uk recommend
a source for good wet and dry and pastes?
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP
Build nearing completion
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342063#342063
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Thanks to the responders,
and for all of the measurements, and the few extra that came in recently.
They all appear pretty representatively similar. That is plenty enough to
see that my cross tube length may be on the smaller side, but is pretty
close to what most are measuring. Of course, mine is uncut, and it appears
that some have been trimmed already. Still, that does not explain how far
off it appears to be.
Now I am looking at flap lengths. Maybe a few more measurements will help
towards solving this puzzle. Flap lengths measured from flange to flange are
variable though, but If one measures from the outer flap closeout (on the
wing) to the drive plates (where the pin inserts, on the flap), I think this
would be helpful. This describes the would-be flap containment area,
assuming the cross tube butts up against it inboard, and the flap butts
against the outboard closeout at the tightest flap position setting. Easier
for those folks that haven't filled their wing yet, to see the plates
through the glass flange. See attachment for further detail...hopefully I
described it well enough as to make it understandable. I measured mine too,
but misplaced the paper it was written on I will have to do it again.
Greg
Message 12
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| Subject: | Flap cross tube problem |
Thanks Ian,
At least a variation in fuselage width won't affect how the flap cross tube
mates up to the flaps, since all the dimensions appear to be referenced to
the wings and wing pins. It does look like my cross tube is similar to
others, so your memory serves you well. I am not sure why some fuselages
are wider, either. When I put in my cockpit module, I used straps arount the
fuselage to suck it to the cp module. That was done to stay away from
putting rivet holes through the outer shell of the fuselage, which would
just be a lot of work filling them in again later. Maybe that might create
a 'slightly' smaller fuselage width?
I would indeed be interested in how the flap tube fits on 576..
Regards,
Greg
Greg
Just measured the tube from Kit 576 and it is 44-5/8th long. I am not aware
that there has been any variation in the tube lengths that Frans referred
to.
There is some variation in the fuselage width which I have never been able
to explain given the rigidity of the cockpit module. For example Kit 576 is
some 12mm wider at the forward wing pins than I would expect. I am about to
do the flap tube on 576 so I can let you know if this cross tube is long
enough for this aircraft.
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours
Europa Club Mods Specialist
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | N127ZP Landing gear failure. |
posted by: Ken Carpenter : Looks like a beautiful plane except for the
damage.
I was thinking the same thing. Very pretty! Sorry for the damage suffered to
your beautiful bird. :(
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Carpenter
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure.
--> <kbcarpenter@comcast.net>
Had the same thing happen to me but I did not have mod 51. The tunnel
looked like yours too. I had to replace the prop blades but did not do
anything to the rotax. Maybe should have but all is well 550 hrs and eight
years later. There is a problem with the gear being over center or
something like that. I recall filing on a stop to get it to be just a bit
more over center. You can lift the plane by a hoist attached to the engine.
Suggest a conference with Bud Yerly.
Looks like a beautiful plane except for the damage.
Sent from my iPad
Ken Carpenter
On Jun 4, 2011, at 12:41 AM, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
wrote:
> --> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can
collapse. My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the
gear box is taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you
need go no further.
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey J Paris"
> <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
> To: <budyerly@msn.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:15 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure.
>
>
> Hi Bud,
>
> We had a major problem today, during a taxi and a stationary run-up our
landing gear collapsed and nuked our prop and pancaked our airplane onto the
tarmac at my local airport. Needless to say I'm feeling a bit devastated,
but I'm very grateful as my Father pointed out ,"that thank god I wasn't
taking off or landing when the gear failed." I had to agree wholeheartedly!
Anyways, any ideas or has anyone else out there suffered the same problem?
During my build I definitely was concerned that the "Gear" handle was doing
3 jobs, deploying/retracting the main gear, flaps and outriggers. My
aircraft has been on the mains since last September and has been moved in
and out of the hanger many times, what gives besides the gear? I have
attached some pictures that may shed some light to your experienced eye.
>
> Looks like a total tear down for the engine? Mod 51 incorporated. The
aircraft is insured, my Father was a successful Insurance Agent and we are
covered pending an inspection from claims.
>
>
> Accident Information regarding N127ZP Europa Monowheel Classic.
>
> Pilot/Owner: Jeff Paris at controls at time of accident, Phase I of ground
testing.
>
> When: June 3, 2011 approximately 12:30 PM at hanger located SDC perfect
VFR conditions.
>
> Where: Parked on Taxiway on south side of field
>
> How and What: Was test running engine up on taxiway near hanger. Aircraft
was stationary with parking brake engaged. During engine run-up pilot looked
down to close throttle after successful run-up and noticed that the landing
gear handle was bent/bending to the left. Pilot immediately attempted to
shut down engine when the gear collapsed and propeller struck the ground and
stopped engine. At time of preflight inspection and up to accident all
safety latches for the landing gear on the aircraft appeared to be
functioning and engaged as designed. Aircraft dismantled and stored in
owners hanger, pending review of damage.
>
> I guess we all heard the saying there are two types of retractable pilots
one that has had a gear up landing and those that will, I didn't expect to
have a collapse just sitt ing there monitoring the gauges. . . WTF!
>
> Thanks for your time and consideration.
>
> Jeff Paris
>
>
>
>
>
>
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