---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/04/11: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:44 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (David Joyce) 2. 01:14 AM - Flap cross tube (Peter Harrod) 3. 01:34 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Pete Lawless) 4. 02:47 AM - Re: Flap cross tube (craig) 5. 05:45 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Robert Borger) 6. 07:26 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Ken Carpenter) 7. 08:30 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (rparigoris) 8. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Fred Klein) 9. 09:16 AM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (rparigoris) 10. 01:02 PM - UK source for 1000-2000 wet and dry and compounding paste (graeme bird) 11. 05:31 PM - Re: Flap cross tube (Greg Fuchs) 12. 05:53 PM - Re: Flap cross tube problem (Greg Fuchs) 13. 06:02 PM - Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. (Greg Fuchs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:23 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can collapse. My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the gear box is taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you need go no further. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey J Paris" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:15 PM Subject: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. Hi Bud, We had a major problem today, during a taxi and a stationary run-up our landing gear collapsed and nuked our prop and pancaked our airplane onto the tarmac at my local airport. Needless to say I'm feeling a bit devastated, but I'm very grateful as my Father pointed out ,"that thank god I wasn't taking off or landing when the gear failed." I had to agree wholeheartedly! Anyways, any ideas or has anyone else out there suffered the same problem? During my build I definitely was concerned that the "Gear" handle was doing 3 jobs, deploying/retracting the main gear, flaps and outriggers. My aircraft has been on the mains since last September and has been moved in and out of the hanger many times, what gives besides the gear? I have attached some pictures that may shed some light to your experienced eye. Looks like a total tear down for the engine? Mod 51 incorporated. The aircraft is insured, my Father was a successful Insurance Agent and we are covered pending an inspection from claims. Accident Information regarding N127ZP Europa Monowheel Classic. Pilot/Owner: Jeff Paris at controls at time of accident, Phase I of ground testing. When: June 3, 2011 approximately 12:30 PM at hanger located SDC perfect VFR conditions. Where: Parked on Taxiway on south side of field How and What: Was test running engine up on taxiway near hanger. Aircraft was stationary with parking brake engaged. During engine run-up pilot looked down to close throttle after successful run-up and noticed that the landing gear handle was bent/bending to the left. Pilot immediately attempted to shut down engine when the gear collapsed and propeller struck the ground and stopped engine. At time of preflight inspection and up to accident all safety latches for the landing gear on the aircraft appeared to be functioning and engaged as designed. Aircraft dismantled and stored in owners hanger, pending review of damage. I guess we all heard the saying there are two types of retractable pilots one that has had a gear up landing and those that will, I didn't expect to have a collapse just sitt ing there monitoring the gauges. . . WTF! Thanks for your time and consideration. Jeff Paris ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:28 AM PST US From: Peter Harrod Subject: Europa-List: Flap cross tube Kit 481 cross tube length 1132mm. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:45 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. Hi All Looking at the pictures the slot for the retract lever looks very wide. Mine is just wide enough to let the lever slide easily. It is noticeable that the gear has collapsed because the lever has twisted and deformed. Is there a connection? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce Sent: 04 June 2011 08:41 Subject: Re: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can collapse. My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the gear box is taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you need go no further. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey J Paris" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:15 PM Subject: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. Hi Bud, We had a major problem today, during a taxi and a stationary run-up our landing gear collapsed and nuked our prop and pancaked our airplane onto the tarmac at my local airport. Needless to say I'm feeling a bit devastated, but I'm very grateful as my Father pointed out ,"that thank god I wasn't taking off or landing when the gear failed." I had to agree wholeheartedly! Anyways, any ideas or has anyone else out there suffered the same problem? During my build I definitely was concerned that the "Gear" handle was doing 3 jobs, deploying/retracting the main gear, flaps and outriggers. My aircraft has been on the mains since last September and has been moved in and out of the hanger many times, what gives besides the gear? I have attached some pictures that may shed some light to your experienced eye. Looks like a total tear down for the engine? Mod 51 incorporated. The aircraft is insured, my Father was a successful Insurance Agent and we are covered pending an inspection from claims. Accident Information regarding N127ZP Europa Monowheel Classic. Pilot/Owner: Jeff Paris at controls at time of accident, Phase I of ground testing. When: June 3, 2011 approximately 12:30 PM at hanger located SDC perfect VFR conditions. Where: Parked on Taxiway on south side of field How and What: Was test running engine up on taxiway near hanger. Aircraft was stationary with parking brake engaged. During engine run-up pilot looked down to close throttle after successful run-up and noticed that the landing gear handle was bent/bending to the left. Pilot immediately attempted to shut down engine when the gear collapsed and propeller struck the ground and stopped engine. At time of preflight inspection and up to accident all safety latches for the landing gear on the aircraft appeared to be functioning and engaged as designed. Aircraft dismantled and stored in owners hanger, pending review of damage. I guess we all heard the saying there are two types of retractable pilots one that has had a gear up landing and those that will, I didn't expect to have a collapse just sitt ing there monitoring the gauges. . . WTF! Thanks for your time and consideration. Jeff Paris -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:07 AM PST US From: "craig" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap cross tube Kit 577 1125 installed (some trimming was required as per build manual to allow full retraction without jamming) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harrod Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 6:11 PM Subject: Europa-List: Flap cross tube Kit 481 cross tube length 1132mm. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. From: Robert Borger Jeff, Agreed, failure of the over center lock allowed the gear to retract. Rotax has a set procedure for checking the engine after a prop strike. http://www.rotax-owner.com/all-videos has a general prop strike inspection video and two videos showing the procedure to check the crankshaft runout and to check for crankshaft distortion. These checks should best be made by an experienced Rotax repair shop. Looks like you are just east of Rochester. One of the frequent contributors to the Rotax Engines List is a fellow who operates a Rotax Shop in the Buffalo area. If I remember correctly, his name is Thom Riddle. I'll see if I can find one of his postings with contact information. Here is what information is available: Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 You can probably find him through a White Pages search or contact him through the list. I hope this helps. Good luck, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232 http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046 Europa Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jun 4, 2011, at 2:41, David Joyce wrote: > > Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can collapse. My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the gear box is taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you need go no further. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. From: Ken Carpenter Had the same thing happen to me but I did not have mod 51. The tunnel looked like yours too. I had to replace the prop blades but did not do anything to the rotax. Maybe should have but all is well 550 hrs and eight years later. There is a problem with the gear being over center or something like that. I recall filing on a stop to get it to be just a bit more over center. You can lift the plane by a hoist attached to the engine. Suggest a conference with Bud Yerly. Looks like a beautiful plane except for the damage. Sent from my iPad Ken Carpenter On Jun 4, 2011, at 12:41 AM, "David Joyce" wrote: > > Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can collapse. My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the gear box is taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you need go no further. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey J Paris" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:15 PM > Subject: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. > > > Hi Bud, > > We had a major problem today, during a taxi and a stationary run-up our landing gear collapsed and nuked our prop and pancaked our airplane onto the tarmac at my local airport. Needless to say I'm feeling a bit devastated, but I'm very grateful as my Father pointed out ,"that thank god I wasn't taking off or landing when the gear failed." I had to agree wholeheartedly! Anyways, any ideas or has anyone else out there suffered the same problem? During my build I definitely was concerned that the "Gear" handle was doing 3 jobs, deploying/retracting the main gear, flaps and outriggers. My aircraft has been on the mains since last September and has been moved in and out of the hanger many times, what gives besides the gear? I have attached some pictures that may shed some light to your experienced eye. > > Looks like a total tear down for the engine? Mod 51 incorporated. The aircraft is insured, my Father was a successful Insurance Agent and we are covered pending an inspection from claims. > > > Accident Information regarding N127ZP Europa Monowheel Classic. > > Pilot/Owner: Jeff Paris at controls at time of accident, Phase I of ground testing. > > When: June 3, 2011 approximately 12:30 PM at hanger located SDC perfect VFR conditions. > > Where: Parked on Taxiway on south side of field > > How and What: Was test running engine up on taxiway near hanger. Aircraft was stationary with parking brake engaged. During engine run-up pilot looked down to close throttle after successful run-up and noticed that the landing gear handle was bent/bending to the left. Pilot immediately attempted to shut down engine when the gear collapsed and propeller struck the ground and stopped engine. At time of preflight inspection and up to accident all safety latches for the landing gear on the aircraft appeared to be functioning and engaged as designed. Aircraft dismantled and stored in owners hanger, pending review of damage. > > I guess we all heard the saying there are two types of retractable pilots one that has had a gear up landing and those that will, I didn't expect to have a collapse just sitt ing there monitoring the gauges. . . WTF! > > Thanks for your time and consideration. > > Jeff Paris > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:32 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. From: "rparigoris" Hi Jeff When working on my XS gear of A265, I made a jig and fixture to observe and allow myself to fully understand how the gear worked. I was able to make a measuring jig and to my horror my undercarriage mounting frame was allowing one side to be on center, and the other under center. I believe there is a good chance this is a recipe for the disaster you and Ken experienced. You want both sides over center by at least 1/16". There is no mention in the manual of checking this or just how important it is to be over center, but keep in mind not too much over center or you can bend components on the under carriage mounting frame. BTW on early Classic undercarriage mounting frames there was a mod to add more steel and melt it in place. I forget the number of the mod or bulletin. I urged Steve D. to check his, and his needed attention as well. I ended up lopped off the stops to allow about 1/8" overcenter, then Reduxed in place a nice piece of hard durometer polyurethane obtained from McMaster in addition to using a #3 bolt to hold the slug of Polyurethane in place. The Polyurethane allows for a small amount of shock absorption, but even if it were to fail, only 1/8" overcenter could be achieved. it's been a while and I forget exactly how i made my measuring tool, but going from memory now, I made something that went inside the LG08 large diameter pivot that had a pin central located the same diameter as the pin at the base of LG08, which is also the same diameter as the pin (LG04) that the bottom shock absorber plate pivots on. Anyway you have now 3 pins the same diameter. using a thin steel rule you can measure to see if they are absolute in alignment (which would mean they are on center) or if the bottom LG08 pin is a bit forward (over center) like you want. Here arew some drawings: http://www.europa-aircraft.biz/upload/cmb_29m_landinggear_mono.pdf BTW to save yourself at a remote airport or if you need to get off runway quick, John Hurst mentioned you could remove right stabilator, remove right wing, take seat cushions on put under fuse, and roll plane on right side, pull gear down, get stuck and then roll your bird off the runway. Good luck. Ron P. BTW looks like Jab, not Rotax, not sure procedure on Jab for prop strike. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342042#342042 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:23 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. On Jun 4, 2011, at 8:26 AM, rparigoris wrote: > When working on my XS gear of A265, I made a jig and fixture to > observe and allow myself to fully understand how the gear worked. > I was able to make a measuring jig and to my horror my undercarriage > mounting frame was allowing one side to be on center, and the other > under center. Following the advice of Kingsley Hurst, I studied this condition at length and I too found that one of the two stops on the LG mounting frame needed some filing in order for them to make contact simultaneously. As clever and simple as the retraction design is, a high level of precision appears to be essential for it to function properly. Fred ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:53 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: N127ZP Landing gear failure. From: "rparigoris" Hi Fred When you filed the stops to allow LG08s contact to occur at the same time, did you insure that in fact both LG08s were over center? How much did you go over center? >From memory I needed to take 3/16" off one stop and 1/8" off the other. There was only a hollow tube left on each side. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342047#342047 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:10 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: UK source for 1000-2000 wet and dry and compounding paste From: "graeme bird" Top paint coats are on and I am ready to compound, can anyone in the uk recommend a source for good wet and dry and pastes? -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP Build nearing completion Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342063#342063 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:02 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap cross tube Thanks to the responders, and for all of the measurements, and the few extra that came in recently. They all appear pretty representatively similar. That is plenty enough to see that my cross tube length may be on the smaller side, but is pretty close to what most are measuring. Of course, mine is uncut, and it appears that some have been trimmed already. Still, that does not explain how far off it appears to be. Now I am looking at flap lengths. Maybe a few more measurements will help towards solving this puzzle. Flap lengths measured from flange to flange are variable though, but If one measures from the outer flap closeout (on the wing) to the drive plates (where the pin inserts, on the flap), I think this would be helpful. This describes the would-be flap containment area, assuming the cross tube butts up against it inboard, and the flap butts against the outboard closeout at the tightest flap position setting. Easier for those folks that haven't filled their wing yet, to see the plates through the glass flange. See attachment for further detail...hopefully I described it well enough as to make it understandable. I measured mine too, but misplaced the paper it was written on I will have to do it again. Greg ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:53 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap cross tube problem Thanks Ian, At least a variation in fuselage width won't affect how the flap cross tube mates up to the flaps, since all the dimensions appear to be referenced to the wings and wing pins. It does look like my cross tube is similar to others, so your memory serves you well. I am not sure why some fuselages are wider, either. When I put in my cockpit module, I used straps arount the fuselage to suck it to the cp module. That was done to stay away from putting rivet holes through the outer shell of the fuselage, which would just be a lot of work filling them in again later. Maybe that might create a 'slightly' smaller fuselage width? I would indeed be interested in how the flap tube fits on 576.. Regards, Greg Greg Just measured the tube from Kit 576 and it is 44-5/8th long. I am not aware that there has been any variation in the tube lengths that Frans referred to. There is some variation in the fuselage width which I have never been able to explain given the rigidity of the cockpit module. For example Kit 576 is some 12mm wider at the forward wing pins than I would expect. I am about to do the flap tube on 576 so I can let you know if this cross tube is long enough for this aircraft. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:53 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. posted by: Ken Carpenter : Looks like a beautiful plane except for the damage. I was thinking the same thing. Very pretty! Sorry for the damage suffered to your beautiful bird. :( Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Carpenter Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 7:22 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. --> Had the same thing happen to me but I did not have mod 51. The tunnel looked like yours too. I had to replace the prop blades but did not do anything to the rotax. Maybe should have but all is well 550 hrs and eight years later. There is a problem with the gear being over center or something like that. I recall filing on a stop to get it to be just a bit more over center. You can lift the plane by a hoist attached to the engine. Suggest a conference with Bud Yerly. Looks like a beautiful plane except for the damage. Sent from my iPad Ken Carpenter On Jun 4, 2011, at 12:41 AM, "David Joyce" wrote: > --> > > Jeff, Bad luck. Very strange that an over centre locked system can collapse. My understanding of the Rotax routine for prop strikes is that the gear box is taken off & professionally examined & if that is OK then you need go no further. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey J Paris" > > To: > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:15 PM > Subject: Europa-List: N127ZP Landing gear failure. > > > Hi Bud, > > We had a major problem today, during a taxi and a stationary run-up our landing gear collapsed and nuked our prop and pancaked our airplane onto the tarmac at my local airport. Needless to say I'm feeling a bit devastated, but I'm very grateful as my Father pointed out ,"that thank god I wasn't taking off or landing when the gear failed." I had to agree wholeheartedly! Anyways, any ideas or has anyone else out there suffered the same problem? During my build I definitely was concerned that the "Gear" handle was doing 3 jobs, deploying/retracting the main gear, flaps and outriggers. My aircraft has been on the mains since last September and has been moved in and out of the hanger many times, what gives besides the gear? I have attached some pictures that may shed some light to your experienced eye. > > Looks like a total tear down for the engine? Mod 51 incorporated. The aircraft is insured, my Father was a successful Insurance Agent and we are covered pending an inspection from claims. > > > Accident Information regarding N127ZP Europa Monowheel Classic. > > Pilot/Owner: Jeff Paris at controls at time of accident, Phase I of ground testing. > > When: June 3, 2011 approximately 12:30 PM at hanger located SDC perfect VFR conditions. > > Where: Parked on Taxiway on south side of field > > How and What: Was test running engine up on taxiway near hanger. Aircraft was stationary with parking brake engaged. During engine run-up pilot looked down to close throttle after successful run-up and noticed that the landing gear handle was bent/bending to the left. Pilot immediately attempted to shut down engine when the gear collapsed and propeller struck the ground and stopped engine. At time of preflight inspection and up to accident all safety latches for the landing gear on the aircraft appeared to be functioning and engaged as designed. Aircraft dismantled and stored in owners hanger, pending review of damage. > > I guess we all heard the saying there are two types of retractable pilots one that has had a gear up landing and those that will, I didn't expect to have a collapse just sitt ing there monitoring the gauges. . . WTF! > > Thanks for your time and consideration. > > Jeff Paris > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.