Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:59 AM - Re: Re: Flap cross tube (Greg Fuchs)
2. 05:01 AM - Re: Re: Flap cross tube problem (Greg Fuchs)
3. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Flap cross tube (Richard Wheelwright)
4. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: Flap cross tube (Greg Fuchs)
5. 12:41 PM - Re: Flap cross tube (Kelvin Weston)
6. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Flap cross tube (craig)
7. 02:47 PM - Re: UK source for 1000-2000 wet and dry and compounding paste (graeme bird)
8. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: Flap cross tube (Greg Fuchs)
9. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Flap cross tube (Greg Fuchs)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Flap cross tube |
Kelv,
Thanks for the info! It sure does help.
My Port measurement from the closeout web to the inboard face of the FLAP
pin mounting plates is 75.125 (75 1/8)
STDB measurement is 74.875 (74 7/8)
Well, that makes a half an inch difference from your measurement, anyway. I
am stumped. If I assume 1/2 inch short for flap and maybe 1/4 inch for drive
tube, it still doesn't cover 1.75 to 2 inches, which is what it appears I
need to span the distance.
Thanks, that is the only reference for the flaps I have to compare to.
Greg
Greg
My flap cross tube on kit 497 is 44.6 inches as supplied by Europa
(untrimmed and without bearings).
My flap dimensions are shown below, measured from the closeout web between
the flap and aileron and the inboard face of the wing pin mounting plates.
Port 1908 mm or 75.2 inches
Stbd 1912 mm or 75.3 inches
Hope this helps.
--------
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv@kdweston.biz
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| Subject: | Re: Flap cross tube problem |
Pat,
It could indeed be. I think I have enough flap drive tube samples now. My
drive tube may be on the shorter side, but is well within the ballpark it
seems. If you get a chance to measure the flap closeout web (on the wing) to
drive pin metal base on the flap, I could still use a few more samplings..
Greg
>Your problem could be that the flaps are shorter in length at the flap root
close-out, setting the flap drive pins further apart.
Pat Tunney
Kit 558
www.europaxs.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342124#342124
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| Subject: | Re: Flap cross tube |
It may be a silly Question, But have you rigged the wings with the flaps in
place?- I ask, because the flap drive pin slides into the flap cross tub
e as the flaps are retracted. If you are measuring with the flaps extended
it would appear to be short. =0A-=0AI hope this helps. Sorry if you are r
eady know this=0A=0A==================
===0A=0ARichard Wheelwright=0A=============
========0A=0AFrom: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, 7 June 2011, 12:55=0ASubj
ect: RE: Europa-List: Re: Flap cross tube=0A=0A--> Europa-List message post
ed by: "Greg Fuchs " <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>=0A=0A=0AKelv,=0A=0AThank
s for the info! It sure does help.=0A=0AMy Port measurement from the closeo
ut web to the inboard face of the FLAP=0Apin mounting plates is 75.125 (75
1/8)=0A- STDB measurement is 74.875 (74 7/8)=0A=0AWell, that makes a half
an inch difference from your measurement, anyway. I=0Aam stumped. If I ass
ume 1/2 inch short for flap and maybe 1/4 inch for drive=0Atube, it still d
oesn't cover 1.75 to 2 inches, which is what it appears I=0Aneed to span th
e distance.=0A=0AThanks, that is the only reference for the flaps I have to
in Weston" <kelv@kdweston.biz>=0A=0AGreg=0A=0AMy flap cross tube on kit 497
is 44.6 inches as supplied by Europa=0A(untrimmed and without bearings).
=0A=0AMy flap dimensions are shown below, measured from the closeout web be
tween=0Athe flap and aileron and the inboard face of the wing pin mounting
plates.=0A=0APort- 1908 mm or 75.2 inches=0A=0AStbd- 1912 mm or 75.3 in
ches=0A=0AHope this helps.=0A=0A--------=0ARegards=0A=0AKelv Weston=0AKit 4
==
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Flap cross tube |
Hi Richard!
Yes, with the flaps up. The wings are pinned with the main spar pins, but
the lift pins are not in place. Could that be it? ..Rocking the wings fore
and aft, there does not seem to be much movement. There is no hole in the
fuselage to accept the cross tube yet. I am looking ahead to try an see how
things are going to fit in the future, and measurements have an eyeball
factor, since things are not in line, and may be suffering some parallax.
Currently trying to figure out some way to provide a slot in the
quick-connect area for the wing spars to slide in, to make it easier to
rig/derig (I don't think there is extra Tufnol in the kit for this, maybe
HDPE will work..). ..Final say may well be after the wing is set in its
permanent position with lift pins and cross tube installed through the
fuselage.. I might use some plumb bobs (hanging from flap pin surface) for
a better esitmate, later on today.
Thanks for your input,
Greg
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Wheelwright
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Flap cross tube
It may be a silly Question, But have you rigged the wings with the flaps in
place? I ask, because the flap drive pin slides into the flap cross tube as
the flaps are retracted. If you are measuring with the flaps extended it
would appear to be short.
I hope this helps. Sorry if you are ready know this
===================
Richard Wheelwright
===================
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Flap cross tube |
Greg
I take it you have the flaps hinged to the wing.
If your flaps were too short, you would have had problems aligning the flap hinge
arms with the wing hinge plates.
As the tip or outer flap arm FL3 mounts in the centre of the outboard flap hinge
plates W21, any discrepancy in the length of the flap is visible at the flap
root. The flap arm FL1 will be slightly out of line with the wing root hinge
plate W18.
I know some are slightly out, I have looked at many Europas during my build and
have seen the inboard flap hinge arm W19 bolted to both sides of the inboard
wing plate W18. I have also seen some W19 arms with a double bend to achieve
alignment.
If yours were reasonably lined up at the root hinge then the flaps are likely to
be ok in length.
--------
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv@kdweston.biz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342335#342335
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Flap cross tube |
I used some heavy nylon blocks cut into an L shape to guide the spar as it
slides in, fixed into each spar hole.
As for the flap tube, like you I had doubts the tube was long enough, it
ended it being too long. Rig your wings
Then go ahead and cut the slots for the hinge mounts in the underside of the
fuse so you can get the four holes lined up.
I used a heavy cord for the alignment that was a neat fit in the bolt holes
and basically pulled it tight with tension provided by a 5kg weight
This way you don't have to "eyeball" the centre of the holes for correct
alignment and even if you move something a little by accident the tension
On the cord is enough to keep the alignment correct on the two inner hinges
as the outer two are already fixed in place
craig
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 4:33 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Flap cross tube
Hi Richard!
Yes, with the flaps up. The wings are pinned with the main spar pins, but
the lift pins are not in place. Could that be it? ...Rocking the wings fore
and aft, there does not seem to be much movement. There is no hole in the
fuselage to accept the cross tube yet. I am looking ahead to try an see how
things are going to fit in the future, and measurements have an eyeball
factor, since things are not in line, and may be suffering some parallax.
Currently trying to figure out some way to provide a slot in the
quick-connect area for the wing spars to slide in, to make it easier to
rig/derig (I don't think there is extra Tufnol in the kit for this, maybe
HDPE will work..). ..Final say may well be after the wing is set in its
permanent position with lift pins and cross tube installed through the
fuselage.. I might use some plumb bobs (hanging from flap pin surface) for
a better esitmate, later on today.
Thanks for your input,
Greg
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Wheelwright
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Flap cross tube
It may be a silly Question, But have you rigged the wings with the flaps in
place? I ask, because the flap drive pin slides into the flap cross tube as
the flaps are retracted. If you are measuring with the flaps extended it
would appear to be short.
I hope this helps. Sorry if you are ready know this
===================
Richard Wheelwright
===================
_____
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: UK source for 1000-2000 wet and dry and compounding paste |
I found a vendor - called Refinish Systems and brought the perfect finish III 3M
products, the three grades of compound with the 150mm foam pads, Green, yellow
and blue and 3M wetordry 1200 grit.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP
Build nearing completion
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342343#342343
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| Subject: | Re: Flap cross tube |
Kelv,
>I take it you have the flaps hinged to the wing.
Yes
I did indeed use FL3 as the reference in positioning the flap laterally.
Only about 1/4" of flange needed to be cut off the outboard side of the flap
to center FL3 between the dual flap hinge plates. I had no problem lining up
any of the hinge arms. Most lined up with zero flexing. The inboard most
hinge arms may have had a very very slight flex. It was almost perfect. I
cannot remember which side of the w18's the hinge arms bolted up to, but
both wings were symetric at the root. While setting them up, I remembered
that some builders used S-curves. I was happy to see everything line up. I
would probably re-make the flap end, before s-curving the hinge arm (just my
opinion).
As you say, it intuitively appears at least, that they are not considerably
short for sure. Little shorter than your measurement though. Thanks for
those! Still hoping for a few more measurements to compare to..
Regards,
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelvin Weston
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:38 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Flap cross tube
Greg
I take it you have the flaps hinged to the wing.
If your flaps were too short, you would have had problems aligning the flap
hinge arms with the wing hinge plates.
As the tip or outer flap arm FL3 mounts in the centre of the outboard flap
hinge plates W21, any discrepancy in the length of the flap is visible at
the flap root. The flap arm FL1 will be slightly out of line with the wing
root hinge plate W18.
I know some are slightly out, I have looked at many Europas during my build
and have seen the inboard flap hinge arm W19 bolted to both sides of the
inboard wing plate W18. I have also seen some W19 arms with a double bend
to achieve alignment.
If yours were reasonably lined up at the root hinge then the flaps are
likely to be ok in length.
--------
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv@kdweston.biz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342335#342335
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Flap cross tube |
Hi Craig,
Maybe the flap tube clearance is too close a call to make at the moment.
Might have to shelve that thought for now, as one of those things that can't
be looked into until later when other things are finalized.
Sounds like a good technique with the cord for setting up the hinge mounts
on the fuselage. When potting in the center flap hinge arm a few years ago
(on the same axis as the outer hinge arms), I used the lightest stuff I
could get my hands on, to eliminate droop. That turned out to be
monofilament fishing line. A small toothpick-like stick, which was tied to
the line, had plenty of friction to hold itself in place under tension, on
the back side of the hinge, with the line going through the exact center of
the holes on the outer edges of the flap. Used eyeball and painted the
fishing line in the area it went through the holes, to achieve good
visibility. Not sure how that technique will work with the fuse hinge arms
though, due to accessibility and parallax error. I might have to visit your
technique, it sounds pretty good.
I am heading down to pick up some HDPE right now and am hoping it will work
at least as well as nylon. I think someone else here had good results.
Afraid glue won't stick to either like it does with TUFNOL, though. Might
put them on the top side of the spar hole too. Hopefully, it will help
one-person attempts to align the wing pins so many times. How did you
anchor in the nylon blocks, a number of screws and some glue around the
edges of the block? New thread could be started here...almost (prob too
short).
Greg F
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:46 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Flap cross tube
I used some heavy nylon blocks cut into an L shape to guide the spar as it
slides in, fixed into each spar hole.
As for the flap tube, like you I had doubts the tube was long enough, it
ended it being too long. Rig your wings
Then go ahead and cut the slots for the hinge mounts in the underside of the
fuse so you can get the four holes lined up.
I used a heavy cord for the alignment that was a neat fit in the bolt holes
and basically pulled it tight with tension provided by a 5kg weight
This way you don't have to "eyeball" the centre of the holes for correct
alignment and even if you move something a little by accident the tension
On the cord is enough to keep the alignment correct on the two inner hinges
as the outer two are already fixed in place
craig
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 4:33 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Flap cross tube
Hi Richard!
Yes, with the flaps up. The wings are pinned with the main spar pins, but
the lift pins are not in place. Could that be it? ...Rocking the wings fore
and aft, there does not seem to be much movement. There is no hole in the
fuselage to accept the cross tube yet. I am looking ahead to try an see how
things are going to fit in the future, and measurements have an eyeball
factor, since things are not in line, and may be suffering some parallax.
Currently trying to figure out some way to provide a slot in the
quick-connect area for the wing spars to slide in, to make it easier to
rig/derig (I don't think there is extra Tufnol in the kit for this, maybe
HDPE will work..). ..Final say may well be after the wing is set in its
permanent position with lift pins and cross tube installed through the
fuselage.. I might use some plumb bobs (hanging from flap pin surface) for
a better esitmate, later on today.
Thanks for your input,
Greg
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Wheelwright
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Flap cross tube
It may be a silly Question, But have you rigged the wings with the flaps in
place? I ask, because the flap drive pin slides into the flap cross tube as
the flaps are retracted. If you are measuring with the flaps extended it
would appear to be short.
I hope this helps. Sorry if you are ready know this
===================
Richard Wheelwright
===================
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
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06/07/11
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