Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:07 AM - Re: Trailer for XS tri (G-IANI)
2. 01:26 AM - Re: Trailer for XS tri (go signs)
3. 08:44 AM - Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (Fergus Kyle)
4. 08:53 AM - Europa 272 for sale (Fergus Kyle)
5. 10:16 AM - Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
6. 10:29 AM - Re: Trailer for XS tri (William Daniell)
7. 11:18 AM - Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (rparigoris)
8. 11:24 AM - Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (rparigoris)
9. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
10. 03:38 PM - Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (rparigoris)
Message 1
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Subject: | Trailer for XS tri |
Will
The drawing I sent was the basic trailer. My trailer also has:-
1) Car battery, solar panel for charging, interior lights
2) Electric winch, 12 Volt power point for electric tyre pump
3) Vertical mounts for the tailplanes
4) Lots of tie down points
5) Shelves for storage and hooks to hanging up many odds and ends (eg
fuel filler funnel)
6) Small combination safe for valuables
When you have been using it to seven years you just add things as you
discover you need them
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours
Europa Club Mods Specialist
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 2
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Subject: | Trailer for XS tri |
Any chance of some pictures and the drawing Just bought anew n almost -4
wheel Brian James car trailer to move my -sports cars as well but interes
ted in what you have done Nigel H gbupa@hotmail.com-
--- On Sat, 11/6/11, G-IANI <g-iani@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: G-IANI <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trailer for XS tri
Will -The drawing I sent was the basic trailer.- My trailer also has:-1
)----- Car battery, solar panel for charging, interior lights2)
----- Electric winch, 12 Volt power point for electric tyre pump3
)----- Vertical mounts for the tailplanes4)----- Lots o
f tie down points5)----- Shelves for storage and hooks to hanging
up many odds and ends- (eg fuel filler funnel)6)----- Small co
mbination safe for valuables -When you have been using it to seven years
you just add things as you discover you need them - -Ian Rickard G-IANI
XS Trigear, 300hours
Europa Club Mods Specialist
=====0A=0A
Message 3
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Subject: | Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... |
Graham,
Thanks for your latest in that $%^&* lever and its connections.
I remember seeing a 'triangle' plate which slide down abaft the lever to
serve as a "parking" brake. After this sad event subject, it occurred to me
that a similar plate could be slid behind the lever before landing so as to
keep it from bobbing up when encountering bumpy surfaces.
Do you think it might serve to lock the lever or is the linkage
mechanism such that it will simply bend the lever and permit inadvertent
retraction? - I haven't studied the subject, obviously, and am sloughing off
the work out of pure laziness...........
Regards, Ferg
Message 4
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Subject: | Europa 272 for sale |
At the expense of repeating the obvious, I wanted to say that I followed the
exploits of Europa 272 for its expert and detailed build log.
If you may be leaning toward its purchase, I can advise that it was
built by Tony Krzyzewski as ZK-TSK with skill and accuracy AND a great
descriptive history. I have no financial interest or otherwise except to
clarify that it is no mean feat in his case. I have the log to confirm it.
Ferg
A064
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... |
Hi Ferg=0Athere have been collapses when the lock flicked up but the main p
roblem is the =0Aover centre situation. If there is too much O/C, when the
gear hangs down it =0Apulls it off the O/C and momentum of the links can ta
ke it under centre. Then =0Aall the load is transferred to the lever which
then bends and lets go.=0ASetting up is therefore critical, the lever must
not be allowed to move forward =0Awhen in the locked position to prevent th
e links moving away from the over =0Acentre position.=0AI think maybe I nee
d to enhance my previous remarks a little. Just a bit too =0Acryptic as usu
al!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Fergus
Kyle <VE3LVO@rac.ca>=0ATo: 5EUROPALIST <europa-list@matronics.com>=0ASent:
Saturday, 11 June, 2011 16:41:27=0ASubject: Europa-List: Landing gear Fail
ure, ATTN Graham Sing...=0A=0ALanding gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... =0A
Graham,=0AThanks for your latest in that $%^&*lever and its connections.=0A
I remember seeing a=98triangle=99plate which slide downabaftthe
lever to serve as =0Aa=9Cparking=9Dbrake. After this sad event
subject, it occurred to me that a similar =0Aplate could be slid behind the
lever before landing so as to keep it from =0Abobbing up when encountering
bumpy surfaces.=0A Do you think it might serve to lock the leveror
is the linkage mechanism =0Asuch that it will simply bend the lever and per
mit inadvertentretraction?=93I =0Ahaven=99t studied the subject
, obviously, and am sloughingoff the work out of pure =0Alaziness..........
=================== =0A
Message 6
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Subject: | Trailer for XS tri |
Great - thanks
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
Sent: 11 June, 2011 03:05
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trailer for XS tri
Will
The drawing I sent was the basic trailer. My trailer also has:-
1) Car battery, solar panel for charging, interior lights
2) Electric winch, 12 Volt power point for electric tyre pump
3) Vertical mounts for the tailplanes
4) Lots of tie down points
5) Shelves for storage and hooks to hanging up many odds and ends (eg
fuel filler funnel)
6) Small combination safe for valuables
When you have been using it to seven years you just add things as you
discover you need them
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours
Europa Club Mods Specialist
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... |
Hi Graham
"If there is too much O/C, when the gear hangs down it pulls it off the O/C and
momentum of the links can take it under centre."
Sorry, I don't quite know what you are trying to say.
Would you mind too much to explain a little more?
If lets say we had 1/2" over center. If the gear lever held LG08 against the stop
on the undercarriage mounting frame, unless there was some play, the LG08 should
stay against the stop, no?
1/2" over center would fail the stops in a hard landing because of the tremendous
leverage by being too much over center. Is this perhaps what you are talking
about, too much over center will fail the undercarriage mounting frame and cause
a collapse? The early Classic undercarriage mounting frames needed to be
strengthened to prevent just this scenario with proper amount of over center.
I could see if there was play in the system that gravity could pull the gear down
and get it on center or even under, but if there is no play and the down detente
is solidly pushing LG08 against stop i am at a loss to visualize how too
much would equate to under-center and cause a collapse?
I scuff sanded LG08 and my gear lever and reamed the holes and bonded with Redux
in an attempt to keep play to a minimum, in addition to installing the stiffener
angle (think Mod 51? could be wrong on the number)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342732#342732
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... |
One solution that I liked and incorporated is a spring to hold the down latch down.
No matter what I did (which included reaming holes and trying NAS hardware),
if I fooled with the latch I could get it to jam in the up position once in
a while. It was due to sideway racking/skew and friction from point loading
and it was just not reliable enough for my taste considering consequences if it
got stuck in the up position.
Anyway here are details for down-latch spring:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=86937
open the album on the left.
Simple, stupid, cheap, easy to make and lightweight.
Sorry I can't remember who sent me the .jpg of the spring.
I wound it out of some stainless spring wire i picked up from www.mcmaster.com
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342733#342733
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... |
<<1/2" over center would fail the stops in a hard landing because of the
=0Atremendous leverage by being too much over center. Is this perhaps what
you are =0Atalking about, too much over center will fail the undercarriage
mounting frame =0Aand cause a collapse? The early Classic undercarriage
mounting frames needed to =0Abe strengthened to prevent just this scenario
with proper amount of over =0Acenter.=0A=0AI could see if there was play
in the system that gravity could pull the gear =0Adown and get it on center
or even under, but if there is no play and the down =0Adetente is solidly
pushing LG08 against stop i am at a loss to visualize how =0Atoo much wou
ld equate to under-center and cause a collapse?>>=0A=0AHi Ron=0Ayes, this
is pretty much what I was trying to explain. But still haven't quite =0Adon
e it? The play that matters is the clearance between LG 12 and the part it
=0Alocks into in the gear down position. I think there is an ideal amount o
f O/C =0Awhich is quite small so that the load on LG12 is low. Your suggest
ion of 1/16" =0Asounds about right but I suggest not more than 1/16". Then
there must be very =0Asmall clearance between LG12 and the lock so that it
can't go forward when G =0A(during a bounce) tries to pull the gear down fr
om the O/C position.=0AYou can see from the original picture Jeff posted th
at the loads can be =0Aconsiderable, enough to completely fail the LG12. I
wouldn't have thought there =0Awas much gap on the one that failed but the
combined effect of too much O/C and =0Atoo much LG12 clearance probably cau
sed Jeff's failure. imho of course. Hope =0Athis is a clearer explanation o
f my thinking, please excuse the creaking and =0Agroaning from the old gear
s in my head!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFro
m: rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Saturday, 11 June, 2011 19:15:29=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Landi
ng gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing...=0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by
: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>=0A=0AHi Graham=0A=0A"If there i
s too much O/C, when the gear hangs down it pulls it off the O/C and =0Amom
entum of the links can take it under centre."=0A=0ASorry, I don't quite kno
w what you are trying to say.=0A=0AWould you mind too much to explain a lit
tle more?=0A=0AIf lets say we had 1/2" over center. If the gear lever held
LG08 against the =0Astop on the undercarriage mounting frame, unless there
was some play, the LG08 =0Ashould stay against the stop, no?=0A=0A1/2" over
center would fail the stops in a hard landing because of the =0Atremendous
leverage by being too much over center. Is this perhaps what you are =0Ata
lking about, too much over center will fail the undercarriage mounting fram
e =0Aand cause a collapse? The early Classic undercarriage mounting frames
needed to =0Abe strengthened to prevent just this scenario with proper amou
nt of over center.=0A=0AI could see if there was play in the system that gr
avity could pull the gear =0Adown and get it on center or even under, but i
f there is no play and the down =0Adetente is solidly pushing LG08 against
stop i am at a loss to visualize how too =0Amuch would equate to under-cent
er and cause a collapse?=0A=0AI scuff sanded LG08 and my gear lever and rea
med the holes and bonded with Redux =0Ain an attempt to keep play to a mini
mum, in addition to installing the stiffener =0Aangle (think Mod 51? could
be wrong on the number)=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahtt
p://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342732#342732=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=================
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... |
Hi Graham
Thanks for the reply. Sorry but I am still confused. I think a few more questions
answered will get me on track.
First I think we need to absolute clarify what you mean by O/C. My interpretation
is Over Center. In other words if you load the main tire, it will load the
swingarm which will load LG08, and if Over Center, LG08 will try and move forward,
in other words towards the prop. It will be jamming into the undercarriage
mounting frame, the more you load it, the harder it will push into the undercarriage
mounting frame.
Like I mentioned in a prior post, My undercarriage mounting frame was ill fabricated
where the stops did not allow LG08s to go over center. One was on center
and the other was under center. Under center means if you load the tire, it will
load the swingarm which will load LG08s. The one that was under center will
begin to push backwards towards the tail. Again this is under center. The only
thing holding the LG08s forward in a situation where you are under center is
the LG12. In Jeffs case I think he was under center and the loading caused the
lever to bend. There is a good chance he has an ill fabricated undercarriage
mounting frame that did not allow over center, but caused an under center situation.
So, do you mean O/C is Over center, or do you mean by O/C is what Iconsider under
center?
Thus you want 1/16" in my term Over center where when you push up on swingarm LG08
is loaded and pushes forward. You want LG12 held by the down indent where
LG08 is held forward against the undercarriage mounting frame stop where there
is little to no slop that would allow LG08 to go under center (in others allow
LG08 to swing aft towards the tail).
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342746#342746
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