---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/11/11: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:07 AM - Re: Trailer for XS tri (G-IANI) 2. 01:26 AM - Re: Trailer for XS tri (go signs) 3. 08:44 AM - Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (Fergus Kyle) 4. 08:53 AM - Europa 272 for sale (Fergus Kyle) 5. 10:16 AM - Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 6. 10:29 AM - Re: Trailer for XS tri (William Daniell) 7. 11:18 AM - Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (rparigoris) 8. 11:24 AM - Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (rparigoris) 9. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 10. 03:38 PM - Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... (rparigoris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:50 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trailer for XS tri Will The drawing I sent was the basic trailer. My trailer also has:- 1) Car battery, solar panel for charging, interior lights 2) Electric winch, 12 Volt power point for electric tyre pump 3) Vertical mounts for the tailplanes 4) Lots of tie down points 5) Shelves for storage and hooks to hanging up many odds and ends (eg fuel filler funnel) 6) Small combination safe for valuables When you have been using it to seven years you just add things as you discover you need them Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:26:16 AM PST US From: go signs Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trailer for XS tri Any chance of some pictures and the drawing Just bought anew n almost -4 wheel Brian James car trailer to move my -sports cars as well but interes ted in what you have done Nigel H gbupa@hotmail.com- --- On Sat, 11/6/11, G-IANI wrote: From: G-IANI Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trailer for XS tri Will -The drawing I sent was the basic trailer.- My trailer also has:-1 )----- Car battery, solar panel for charging, interior lights2) ----- Electric winch, 12 Volt power point for electric tyre pump3 )----- Vertical mounts for the tailplanes4)----- Lots o f tie down points5)----- Shelves for storage and hooks to hanging up many odds and ends- (eg fuel filler funnel)6)----- Small co mbination safe for valuables -When you have been using it to seven years you just add things as you discover you need them - -Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist =====0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:57 AM PST US From: Fergus Kyle Subject: Europa-List: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... Graham, Thanks for your latest in that $%^&* lever and its connections. I remember seeing a 'triangle' plate which slide down abaft the lever to serve as a "parking" brake. After this sad event subject, it occurred to me that a similar plate could be slid behind the lever before landing so as to keep it from bobbing up when encountering bumpy surfaces. Do you think it might serve to lock the lever or is the linkage mechanism such that it will simply bend the lever and permit inadvertent retraction? - I haven't studied the subject, obviously, and am sloughing off the work out of pure laziness........... Regards, Ferg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:22 AM PST US From: Fergus Kyle Subject: Europa-List: Europa 272 for sale At the expense of repeating the obvious, I wanted to say that I followed the exploits of Europa 272 for its expert and detailed build log. If you may be leaning toward its purchase, I can advise that it was built by Tony Krzyzewski as ZK-TSK with skill and accuracy AND a great descriptive history. I have no financial interest or otherwise except to clarify that it is no mean feat in his case. I have the log to confirm it. Ferg A064 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:47 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... Hi Ferg=0Athere have been collapses when the lock flicked up but the main p roblem is the =0Aover centre situation. If there is too much O/C, when the gear hangs down it =0Apulls it off the O/C and momentum of the links can ta ke it under centre. Then =0Aall the load is transferred to the lever which then bends and lets go.=0ASetting up is therefore critical, the lever must not be allowed to move forward =0Awhen in the locked position to prevent th e links moving away from the over =0Acentre position.=0AI think maybe I nee d to enhance my previous remarks a little. Just a bit too =0Acryptic as usu al!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Fergus Kyle =0ATo: 5EUROPALIST =0ASent: Saturday, 11 June, 2011 16:41:27=0ASubject: Europa-List: Landing gear Fail ure, ATTN Graham Sing...=0A=0ALanding gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... =0A Graham,=0AThanks for your latest in that $%^&*lever and its connections.=0A I remember seeing a=98triangle=99plate which slide downabaftthe lever to serve as =0Aa=9Cparking=9Dbrake. After this sad event subject, it occurred to me that a similar =0Aplate could be slid behind the lever before landing so as to keep it from =0Abobbing up when encountering bumpy surfaces.=0A Do you think it might serve to lock the leveror is the linkage mechanism =0Asuch that it will simply bend the lever and per mit inadvertentretraction?=93I =0Ahaven=99t studied the subject , obviously, and am sloughingoff the work out of pure =0Alaziness.......... =================== =0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:11 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trailer for XS tri Great - thanks Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI Sent: 11 June, 2011 03:05 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trailer for XS tri Will The drawing I sent was the basic trailer. My trailer also has:- 1) Car battery, solar panel for charging, interior lights 2) Electric winch, 12 Volt power point for electric tyre pump 3) Vertical mounts for the tailplanes 4) Lots of tie down points 5) Shelves for storage and hooks to hanging up many odds and ends (eg fuel filler funnel) 6) Small combination safe for valuables When you have been using it to seven years you just add things as you discover you need them Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:26 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... From: "rparigoris" Hi Graham "If there is too much O/C, when the gear hangs down it pulls it off the O/C and momentum of the links can take it under centre." Sorry, I don't quite know what you are trying to say. Would you mind too much to explain a little more? If lets say we had 1/2" over center. If the gear lever held LG08 against the stop on the undercarriage mounting frame, unless there was some play, the LG08 should stay against the stop, no? 1/2" over center would fail the stops in a hard landing because of the tremendous leverage by being too much over center. Is this perhaps what you are talking about, too much over center will fail the undercarriage mounting frame and cause a collapse? The early Classic undercarriage mounting frames needed to be strengthened to prevent just this scenario with proper amount of over center. I could see if there was play in the system that gravity could pull the gear down and get it on center or even under, but if there is no play and the down detente is solidly pushing LG08 against stop i am at a loss to visualize how too much would equate to under-center and cause a collapse? I scuff sanded LG08 and my gear lever and reamed the holes and bonded with Redux in an attempt to keep play to a minimum, in addition to installing the stiffener angle (think Mod 51? could be wrong on the number) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342732#342732 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:39 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... From: "rparigoris" One solution that I liked and incorporated is a spring to hold the down latch down. No matter what I did (which included reaming holes and trying NAS hardware), if I fooled with the latch I could get it to jam in the up position once in a while. It was due to sideway racking/skew and friction from point loading and it was just not reliable enough for my taste considering consequences if it got stuck in the up position. Anyway here are details for down-latch spring: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=86937 open the album on the left. Simple, stupid, cheap, easy to make and lightweight. Sorry I can't remember who sent me the .jpg of the spring. I wound it out of some stainless spring wire i picked up from www.mcmaster.com Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342733#342733 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:40 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... <<1/2" over center would fail the stops in a hard landing because of the =0Atremendous leverage by being too much over center. Is this perhaps what you are =0Atalking about, too much over center will fail the undercarriage mounting frame =0Aand cause a collapse? The early Classic undercarriage mounting frames needed to =0Abe strengthened to prevent just this scenario with proper amount of over =0Acenter.=0A=0AI could see if there was play in the system that gravity could pull the gear =0Adown and get it on center or even under, but if there is no play and the down =0Adetente is solidly pushing LG08 against stop i am at a loss to visualize how =0Atoo much wou ld equate to under-center and cause a collapse?>>=0A=0AHi Ron=0Ayes, this is pretty much what I was trying to explain. But still haven't quite =0Adon e it? The play that matters is the clearance between LG 12 and the part it =0Alocks into in the gear down position. I think there is an ideal amount o f O/C =0Awhich is quite small so that the load on LG12 is low. Your suggest ion of 1/16" =0Asounds about right but I suggest not more than 1/16". Then there must be very =0Asmall clearance between LG12 and the lock so that it can't go forward when G =0A(during a bounce) tries to pull the gear down fr om the O/C position.=0AYou can see from the original picture Jeff posted th at the loads can be =0Aconsiderable, enough to completely fail the LG12. I wouldn't have thought there =0Awas much gap on the one that failed but the combined effect of too much O/C and =0Atoo much LG12 clearance probably cau sed Jeff's failure. imho of course. Hope =0Athis is a clearer explanation o f my thinking, please excuse the creaking and =0Agroaning from the old gear s in my head!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFro m: rparigoris =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 11 June, 2011 19:15:29=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Landi ng gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing...=0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by : "rparigoris" =0A=0AHi Graham=0A=0A"If there i s too much O/C, when the gear hangs down it pulls it off the O/C and =0Amom entum of the links can take it under centre."=0A=0ASorry, I don't quite kno w what you are trying to say.=0A=0AWould you mind too much to explain a lit tle more?=0A=0AIf lets say we had 1/2" over center. If the gear lever held LG08 against the =0Astop on the undercarriage mounting frame, unless there was some play, the LG08 =0Ashould stay against the stop, no?=0A=0A1/2" over center would fail the stops in a hard landing because of the =0Atremendous leverage by being too much over center. Is this perhaps what you are =0Ata lking about, too much over center will fail the undercarriage mounting fram e =0Aand cause a collapse? The early Classic undercarriage mounting frames needed to =0Abe strengthened to prevent just this scenario with proper amou nt of over center.=0A=0AI could see if there was play in the system that gr avity could pull the gear =0Adown and get it on center or even under, but i f there is no play and the down =0Adetente is solidly pushing LG08 against stop i am at a loss to visualize how too =0Amuch would equate to under-cent er and cause a collapse?=0A=0AI scuff sanded LG08 and my gear lever and rea med the holes and bonded with Redux =0Ain an attempt to keep play to a mini mum, in addition to installing the stiffener =0Aangle (think Mod 51? could be wrong on the number)=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahtt p://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342732#342732=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ================= ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:37 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Graham Sing... From: "rparigoris" Hi Graham Thanks for the reply. Sorry but I am still confused. I think a few more questions answered will get me on track. First I think we need to absolute clarify what you mean by O/C. My interpretation is Over Center. In other words if you load the main tire, it will load the swingarm which will load LG08, and if Over Center, LG08 will try and move forward, in other words towards the prop. It will be jamming into the undercarriage mounting frame, the more you load it, the harder it will push into the undercarriage mounting frame. Like I mentioned in a prior post, My undercarriage mounting frame was ill fabricated where the stops did not allow LG08s to go over center. One was on center and the other was under center. Under center means if you load the tire, it will load the swingarm which will load LG08s. The one that was under center will begin to push backwards towards the tail. Again this is under center. The only thing holding the LG08s forward in a situation where you are under center is the LG12. In Jeffs case I think he was under center and the loading caused the lever to bend. There is a good chance he has an ill fabricated undercarriage mounting frame that did not allow over center, but caused an under center situation. So, do you mean O/C is Over center, or do you mean by O/C is what Iconsider under center? Thus you want 1/16" in my term Over center where when you push up on swingarm LG08 is loaded and pushes forward. You want LG12 held by the down indent where LG08 is held forward against the undercarriage mounting frame stop where there is little to no slop that would allow LG08 to go under center (in others allow LG08 to swing aft towards the tail). Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342746#342746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.