Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:34 AM - Re: Danish KZ Rally this weekend..... (David Joyce)
2. 05:54 AM - Re: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
3. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly (Bud Yerly)
4. 01:53 PM - Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly (rparigoris)
5. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
6. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly (Bud Yerly)
7. 05:44 PM - Tail wheel stops on the monowheel (Bud Yerly)
8. 11:19 PM - Re: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel (Kingsley Hurst)
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Subject: | Re: Danish KZ Rally this weekend..... |
Bob, Was sorry not to find you at Wickenby for P Propeller, so perhaps you
went to Denmark. I note that Ivor was infringing my airspace (good to hear
your immaculate RT,Ivor) so he clearly didn't go with you.
Regards, David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 4:03 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Danish KZ Rally this weekend.....
> Hi! All.
>
>
> Anyone else intending a visit to this fly in ?
>
>
> Don't forget the Wckenby (EGNW) event 18th and 19th weekend too.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly |
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AHi Graham=0AFirst I th
ink we need to absolute clarify what you mean by O/C. My =0Ainterpretation
is Over Center. In other words if you load the main tire, it will =0Aload t
he swingarm which will load LG08, and if Over Center, LG08 will try and =0A
move forward, in other words towards the prop. It will be jamming into the
=0Aundercarriage mounting frame, the more you load it, the harder it will p
ush into =0Athe undercarriage mounting frame. =0A=0A=0AYes, that's what I w
as trying to say.=0A=0A In Jeffs case I think he was under center and the
loading caused the lever to =0Abend. There is a good chance he has an ill f
abricated undercarriage mounting =0Aframe that did not allow over center, b
ut caused an under center situation.=0A=0AI think you are probably right th
at Jeff's frame was inaccurate and the LG08 =0Acould have been under centre
.=0A=0ASo, do you mean O/C is Over center, =0A=0AYes=0A=0AThus you want 1/1
6" in my term Over center where when you push up on swingarm =0ALG08 is loa
ded and pushes forward. You want LG12 held by the down indent where =0ALG0
8 is held forward against the undercarriage mounting frame stop where there
=0Ais little to no slop that would allow LG08 to go under center (in other
s allow =0ALG08 to swing aft towards the tail).=0A=0AAnd LG12 will try and
swing aft too. The nearer to dead centre the LG08 is the =0Aless load on th
e stops on the frame and the less load on the LG12 too. Also the =0Aless ef
fect G loading will have on the position of the LG08. =0A=0AWhen LG08 and t
he shock absorber assembly pivots are all in line there is no =0Aforce tryi
ng to move them, they are in pure compression. =0A=0A=0ABud, do you have an
opinion on this? I hope I'm not confusing the issue?=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/view
=========================0A
======
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly |
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slideshow<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LEiKSd
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1>
Graham and others,
I see my first email did not get sent complete with photo's and
discussion.
Also, I did not include on the net the answer to Jeff.
First, I will reprint my answer to Jeff on his probable cause.
Second, I will include the design and installation considerations on the
mono hopefully addressing the over center on down design:
Answer to Jeff:
Jeff,
Nobody hurt, hopefully the engine has a clutch in the gearbox, so it
shouldn't be harmed, the prop can be replaced.
The rest is cosmetic.
Now for the gear.
It is clear from the photo's that the gear handle was in the down and
locked position.
It is also clear that the swing arm came aft with the gear handle in the
lock position and since there is not an over center lock for aft
movement (the only stop for the gear is for the LG 08 to contact the
gear frame stops with the gear handle locked down), then the arm was
fatigued until failure. Yes, it can fail (normally from twisting) just
from sitting with the gear down on the ground and the swing arm now
unsupported by the vertical LG 08. Here is a more complete discussion:
If during the build of the mono, the landing gear retraction arm LG 08
was not positioned hard against the frame stops the gear will collapse.
When the LG 08 is against the stop, the entire retraction arm is
slightly (and it is only slightly) forward of vertical with the shock
block hinge points of LG 04 and LG 05 and against the gear frame stops
when the handle is in the handle slot in the locked position. If the
gear frame stops are not the right length, keeping the gear aft of
vertical, movement can occur with disastrous results. However, if the
stops leave the LG 08s too far forward, it has been surmised that the
gear in a bounce can actually spring the other way (aft) when the
airplane bounces up (extension) and then will collapse (especially if
the handle is loose, or the slot for the lock is sloppy fore and aft or
bushings are worn out in the system) if the gear goes over center (aft)
on the the return impact. Note that in Chapter 28M page 2 the handle
position in the locked position is set by fixing the LG 08s (even before
attaching the rest of the gear) pushed up hard against the gear frame
stop and then setting the handle into position in the lock spot. Many
hours were spent by the builders and the factory to warn that the gear
arms LG08 must be located against the stops to preclude the gear from
collapsing and from inadvertent retraction during rough field
operations.
It is interesting but necessary that the gear handle is set in the
section where we set the flaps to the full down position, and the manual
does amplify the results of the discussion but does not include warnings
in the next chapter when setting the gear and checking the alignment of
the gear LG 08 and the bock pivots below. I thought we made sure in
Annex E that the LG 08s were checked prior to initial flight testing. I
may need to readdress that.
I see by the damage that the gear collapsed by folding aft after the
gear handle finally gave up as is was the only thing that held the gear
from collapsing.
I have one mono in the shop, and will see if I can provide pictures. I
fear that somewhere in the build or perhaps a defect in manufacture of
your gear frame may have put the gear arms slightly aft of vertical or
with the LG 08s not quite touching the stops. In the mono's I have
inspected, I see more often the three bolts on the gear retraction
handle are worn or miss-drilled allowing the gear to move. I have seen
only one gear collapse and that was due to an off field landing. The
plane was not built particularly well and the problems were very easy to
fix. The collapse was because even with the gear handle retract lever
in the lock position, you could move the gear LG08 arms fore and aft due
to a poorly installed gear handle. The gear frame was bent in the
collapse so a new gear frame was installed, and the gear reinstalled
uneventfully.
Now for the analysis of the installation and techniques with photo's not
included in my first email:
Chapter 21M gives clear instruction on the LG 09 and bushing
installation. The stops are called appropriately the over center stops.
These stops allow a slightly over center position of the gear LG08 and
shock block assembly. Again, this is only just over center.
Chapter 28M clearly indicates that for setting the flap in the down
position that LG 08 must be positioned hard against the stops built into
the landing gear frame. From the initial set of the flap, the builder
is instructed in how to install the gear handle. Note that the lower
gear swing arm is not set on the aircraft at this time.
Chapter 29M explains the install of the rest of the gear frame. No
other comments to my knowledge are made about the gear geometry.
Annex E (Mono) indicates that the LG 08 arms are to be affixed against
their stops prior to clearance for flight.
The gear handle is not the mechanism to hold the gear in the down
position. In fact, the gear handle has the following jobs to do in its
design:
a.. The handle is the lock for the over center condition of the gear
when extended (arms LG08 and rubber block lower shocks bent slightly
forward as LG 08 contacts the frame stops). As the instruction manual
indicates the LG 12 safety lock prevents inadvertent gear retraction.
Please note that technically, you can, while sitting on the ground,
retract the LG 12 safety lock and pull the gear handle out of the slot
and as long as you don't put ANY forward pressure on the handle, the
gear should not retract. I haven't tried this.
b.. The handle is the retraction mechanism, but is assisted by the
bungees in the actual retraction of the gear.
c.. The handle is the up lock mechanism only! The bungee geometry
really helps hold the gear up, but the handle does the job. So that
diagonal gear handle brace is necessary for both up and down, because
those three bolts that attach the gear handle to the LG08 are going to
wear those holes out eventually.
<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LEiKSdooxx9v4CF
FiF2tnPzfqiCRx5lZJ3t2ol6z9!Q9u31z2Gf34UKChg6aSaSkGODYJ1SdylXQ%24%24>
Note that the wire line shows the center pivot at the pin through
the lower LG08 arm is just forward of vertical. Typically just about
1mm when everything is bench fitted.
<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LEiKSdooxx9v4CF
FiF2tnPzfqiCRx5lZJ3t2ol6z9!Q9u31z2Gf34UKChg6aSaSkE!zuM!0*scuA%24%24>
I rigged this arm without bearings in the LG09 to show what a stop
that was too long would look like. Note that if the main swing arm was
put under pressure the gear would collapse.
In the the past some discussions were made that the gear leg stops on
the frame were too long (as shown in the photo above) and the gear
mechanism was not vertical. In this case the stops needed to be ground
down.
As with all installations, some fit and check operations should be done.
I know of a couple of gear frames that were incorrect in pre 2004
sales, but Roger worked out these issues and the welding subcontractor
has a superb jig to keep this from happening, but mistakes can happen.
Problems I have seen:
a.. If the gear frame is inserted into the aircraft as per the manual
before thinking about the gear and trial fitting the gear parts first to
check geometry, then very inconvenient checks must be made with your
head in the wheel well to ensure the gear geometry is correct. It is
not hard to do, but requires some dexterity.
b.. It is a main quality control point to make sure the gear stops are
installed and spaced correctly at the factory. However, I trust no
component completely and inspect components myself when setting the
flap, gear handle and gear lock mechanism. I trial fit the retract
mechanism after installation of the LG 08 / 09 in chapter 21 and prior
to gluing it in. It allows me to ensure the under aircraft work is
minimized.
c.. Next I make sure that during gear installation (Chapter 29M) the
gear handle and swing arm geometry assures that the LG 08 and shock arm
assembly is just forward of vertical on both arms a slight amount (1mm
at the joint). To do this I insert a #20 wire or similar through the LG
08/09 and pull it down to the center of the main swing arm 1/4 inch pin
LG 04. Simply look up and check the MS 20392-5 pin is slightly forward
of vertical. Finally, check that the gear handle is secure in holding
the LG08 affixed to the stop, and you are good to go.
d.. Finally, since the LG 08s are fixed together by us amatuers, one
arm may be lazy about hitting the stop, especially if the flap is
dragging or the rubber block shock mount is loose or worn or was
installed twisted slightly (really hard since it is a welded structure
but it probably could). So be really anal about this installation
getting the arms straight and the pins installed well.
Most of us are relieved and gratified when we put the gear handle down,
a distinct snap to the down position is made during retraction/extension
tests. The bungee amplifies the sound of the slight over center and
normally you cannot even get a feeler gauge between the LG08 and stop
when extended. Further, in a well built gear system, the gear handle
drops itself into the lock slot and the safety catch drops in on its
own. That is the test of the gear down lock, when the gear handle is
taken from the up lock position, and it drops itself and slams firmly
into the lock position.
Finally, if the gear over center locks are filed so they are grossly
over center, this is a major problem. If too far forward, the gear
handle geometry is going to be off. The gear handle will work against
the bungee to spring the gear from its over center then up and the
motion of the gear handle travel will be longer than normal. It also
will allow the rubber block and shock when compressed and released to
act as a spring and pull so hard on the LG 08 that if the gear handle
has any sloppiness in it, then it is possible, if the frequency of the
gear shock/block and the landing surface were just right, the LG08 may
be snapped from its contact with the uplock back to vertical, or worse
yet, rebound to slightly over center aft to the unlock side and become
unlocked. This condition is seen as an unintentional gear retraction
with bent handle as in Jeff's excellent pictures.
I believe someone has built a latch that firmly holds the LG 08s to the
stops, but this is quite a bit of more Rube Goldberg work. The existing
gear has gone hundreds of hours and landings without failure when
installed correctly and without any manufacturing defects.
Don't ask me about outriggers, I follow the instructions in the book,
and I have never installed the new bushing mods in my shop, in fact Jim
Butcher showed me on his plane. It takes me a couple tries to get one
right. And it is a comedy routine to watch me try to reassemble one
after disassembly after paint if the lock blocks were not marked with
the orientation. My hat is off to you guys that get it right the first
time.
Hope this does not add to the confusion.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: GRAHAM SINGLETON<mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Hi Graham
First I think we need to absolute clarify what you mean by O/C. My
interpretation is Over Center. In other words if you load the main tire,
it will load the swingarm which will load LG08, and if Over Center, LG08
will try and move forward, in other words towards the prop. It will be
jamming into the undercarriage mounting frame, the more you load it, the
harder it will push into the undercarriage mounting frame.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say.
In Jeffs case I think he was under center and the loading caused the
lever to bend. There is a good chance he has an ill fabricated
undercarriage mounting frame that did not allow over center, but caused
an under center situation.
I think you are probably right that Jeff's frame was inaccurate and
the LG08 could have been under centre.
So, do you mean O/C is Over center,
Yes
Thus you want 1/16" in my term Over center where when you push up on
swingarm LG08 is loaded and pushes forward. You want LG12 held by the
down indent where LG08 is held forward against the undercarriage
mounting frame stop where there is little to no slop that would allow
LG08 to go under center (in others allow LG08 to swing aft towards the
tail).
And LG12 will try and swing aft too. The nearer to dead centre the
LG08 is the less load on the stops on the frame and the less load on the
LG12 too. Also the less effect G loading will have on the position of
the LG08.
When LG08 and the shock absorber assembly pivots are all in line there
is no force trying to move them, they are in pure compression.
Bud, do you have an opinion on this? I hope I'm not confusing the
issue?
Graham
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viollow" target="_blank"
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly |
Hi Bud
Thx. for pictures and explanations.
Just to make sure everyone knows that under center is a bad thing, your second
picture clearly shows that the LG08 is under center which is exactly what you
don't want. The first picture looks OK.
Instead of using a string, I turned a pin that fits into the large shaft of LG08
and has a portion turned the same diameter as the other two pins. Now in situation
can check with a straight edge
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342803#342803
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly |
Thanks Bud :-)=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0AFrom: Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASen
t: Sunday, 12 June, 2011 21:14:56=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Landing g
ear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly=0A=0A=EF=BB =EF=BB =0A Photo E-mail
=0A Play slideshow | Download images =0AGraham and others,
=0AI see my first email did not get sent complete with photo's and discuss
ion.=0AAlso, I did not include on the net the answer to Jeff.=0AFirst, I wi
ll reprint my answer to Jeff on his probable cause.=0ASecond, I will includ
e the design and installation considerations on the mono =0Ahopefully addr
essing the over center on down design:
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Subject: | Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly |
Yes, picture two, on the good bad scale, is bad.
I have used a straight edge also. The custom pins are a bit over the
top, but useful as sometimes the cradle structure gets in the way of
seeing just how close it is to over center aft where a collapse can
happen....
By the way Ron, I still haven't gotten to fly my bird after the Sun n
Fun damage, but a couple years ago you commented on running the 914 at
altitude in turbo and the way the turbo waste gate automatic programing
worked. It took a bit of time for me to comprehend what you were saying
and I started troubleshooting.
We have a slight adjustment to the turbo cable. It seems you had hit
the nail on the head about the turbo control unit. Now that I have a
new controller for the turbo and I can monitor the engine on the laptop
computer, I hope to cure or at least minimize the problem with "the
worlds slowest Europa with 914" problem I have been chasing. I hope to
cure the problem of my manifold pressure climbing as I increase altitude
which limits my speed. More to follow, but your question of the
pressure/temp controls on the 914 kept me thinking on it.
At the time of engine installation, I set my turbo control cable exactly
as the manual calls for as I have on all the birds in my shop, but on my
aircraft, it sucks. The Rotax method to set the turbo cable position
actually puts my engine well over 40 inches of boost at takeoff (if I
let it, but the waste gate controller of course pulls the gate closed to
prevent that) and when I throttle back out of turbo to the 100% stop
(max continuous) my manifold pressure is well above 34 inches requiring
me to throttle back below 100%. Even with the throttle pulled back to
maintain 34-35 inches, the airbox pressure is running a bit high and the
airbox will actually blow off the carbs on climbout. The cable on my
aircraft has been adjusted to allow the turbo waste gate to only open
just far enough to give me 34 inches at 100% and behold, I just make the
38 inches at full tubo (that is the limit on my engine). Of course full
power is available at sea level and 100% throttle for climb so no risks
are anticipated in testing. It was only about 2 threads on the turbo
cable adjustment point to achieve this. So now I have to flight test
and go through some trial and error to get the climb/max continuous
setup to allow me to not have to fly at 60% throttle at cruise. I have
found in the past, my fuel mileage is great, but my cruise power sucks.
More to follow and thanks for your comments which hopefully will solve
my problem.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: rparigoris<mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 4:51 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Landing gear Failure, ATTN Bud Yerly
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us<mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>>
Hi Bud
Thx. for pictures and explanations.
Just to make sure everyone knows that under center is a bad thing,
your second picture clearly shows that the LG08 is under center which is
exactly what you don't want. The first picture looks OK.
Instead of using a string, I turned a pin that fits into the large
shaft of LG08 and has a portion turned the same diameter as the other
two pins. Now in situation can check with a straight edge
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342803#342803<http://forums
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342803#342803>
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avigator?Europa-List>
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on>
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Subject: | Tail wheel stops on the monowheel |
Gentlemen,
Two recent ground loops have occurred to proficient pilots.
In both cases the tail wheel had no stop installed or it had failed
previously during ground operations and was not repaired. In the course
of the landing and rollout, during a bounce and heading excursion the
tail wheel went well beyond 45 degrees of course and control was lost on
landing rollout which resulted in an outrigger grabbing and during the
ground loop the tips of the prop were damaged when tail rise occurred.
One pilot insisted the tail wheel actually spun forward at low speed.
Some older incidents indicate thatd without the limiter, other low speed
ground loops have occurred as the tail wheel control was lost. Europa
has always maintained that the limiter was necessary. Some have
insisted that a limiter was not necessary and or a swivel tail wheel was
preferred. Ground handling incidents indicate that the safer course is
to install the limiter as described in the manual.
Bottom line:
The mono needs a limiter on the tail wheel to preclude loss of control.
Either the Europa supplied spring pin limiter or a Graham Singleton
stop should be used.
Taxi, landing, and takeoff without the limiter may cause loss of
control.
To prevent tail wheel limiter damage, the aircraft should not be pushed
backwards as the tail wheel hollow shaft will contact the spring pin and
eventually the spring pin can be damaged and fail. Without a spring pin
limiter, the tail wheel can be flipped around and cause the tail wheel
springs to be stretched and fail especially when pushing the aircraft
backwards. Use a proper tail wheel trolley to pull the aircraft
backwards.
On a similar note:
Should the tail wheel spring arm be installed about 2 inches higher than
the manual described, the tail wheel geometry will actually drive the
rudder and flick the tail wheel around when passing 60 degrees causing
the tail wheel to restrict rudder movement and a loss of control will
occur.
I have voiced my opinion on the spring pin used in the tail wheel was
not as robust as I would like and should be inspected annually, but the
Graham Singleton V block works great and is pretty much full proof.
Either way, please install the limiter, as without it, it is just a
matter of time before a potential loss of control may occur during
ground operations.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
Europa Tech Support
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Subject: | Re: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel |
Bud,
You said:
"Should the tail wheel spring arm be installed about 2 inches higher
than the manual described, the tail wheel geometry will actually drive
the rudder and flick the tail wheel around when passing 60 degrees
causing the tail wheel to restrict rudder movement and a loss of control
will occur."
Sorry but I'm not sure exactly what you mean . . . . are you saying
that if the rear most part of the tailwheel spring is higher (rear of
fuselage lower) or rear most part of the tailwheel sping is lower (rear
of fuselage higher) ?
Thanks
Kingsley in Oz
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