---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/26/11: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:50 AM - French RSA rally (Guerner Remi) 2. 02:06 AM - Re: French RSA rally (David Lewendon) 3. 04:27 AM - Re: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel (Kingsley Hurst) 4. 06:13 AM - Re: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 5. 07:07 AM - Woodcomp after Sales Service (Paul McAllister) 6. 07:55 AM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (nigel henry) 7. 08:28 AM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (Paul McAllister) 8. 09:19 AM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (Frans Veldman) 9. 12:13 PM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (Jos Okhuijsen) 10. 12:18 PM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (Karl Heindl) 11. 02:29 PM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (houlihan) 12. 03:49 PM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (josok-e) 13. 03:52 PM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (Carl Pattinson) 14. 04:08 PM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (Carl Pattinson) 15. 05:20 PM - Re: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel (JR Gowing) 16. 07:57 PM - Re: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel (Kingsley Hurst) 17. 09:09 PM - Re: Best device to ratify the Actual Fuel Flow on a 914 (sblack) 18. 10:03 PM - Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service (josok-e) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:37 AM PST US From: Guerner Remi Subject: Europa-List: French RSA rally Hi all, The french RSA rally will take place in Blois (about 100 miles SW from Paris) on July 1st to 3rd. Good weather expected, good food and no landing fee! Hope to see many Europas there. Information on http://www.rsafrance.com/ Remi Guerner F-PGKL ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:34 AM PST US From: David Lewendon Subject: Re: Europa-List: French RSA rally If you are going to Blois then you are welcome to come to our own fly in on Sunday the 3rd of July at La Rogerie Mayenne LF5322. We are having a sit down lunch in the hangar. Details here: http://web.mac.com/comancheman/iWeb/Airfield/Airfield%20pics.html file:///Users/davidlewendon/Desktop/La%20Rogerie%20Invitation.pdf Regards David Lewendon Home 00 33 243 08 35 41 Mobile 00 33 622 09 41 42 On 26 juin 11, at 09:47, Guerner Remi wrote: > > > Hi all, > > The french RSA rally will take place in Blois (about 100 miles SW > from Paris) on July 1st to 3rd. Good weather expected, good food > and no landing fee! Hope to see many Europas there. Information on http://www.rsafrance.com/ > Remi Guerner > F-PGKL > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:17 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Apparently some people want to lower the tail of the aircraft a bit Bob but I don't know what they hope to achieve. It would make it that much harder to see over the nose which is already hard enough. I don't have any drawing other than the instructions that came from Europa on how to set up the tail wheel spring rod. I did mine as per the book as I suspect you did too. Don't worry about all this stuff Bob. Quite often, the list gets a subject that everybody expounds upon and all it does is serve as a distraction from what we should be doing. We have just been away again for the last 3 days to see the house. It is almost finished . . . . basically only the light fittings and switches to be installed now. Hopefully, construction will start on the hangar this week. I finish up at work on Thursday 30 June and start my long holiday. I have enough leave to carry me through until March of next year but I will officially resign before then. You are going to have to start thinking about a trip up to see our new "Love Shack" mate ! Chat again soon. K ----- Original Message ----- From: JR Gowing To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 8:54 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Kingsley I have been looking to try to see a drawing of the tailwheel area to see what people are wanting to lower- if you have that drawing at hand in your computer you might send me a copy - but do not waste your own time getting it up - just say you have not got it there. JR From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly Sent: Thursday, 16 June 2011 12:56 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Kingsley, Look on the diagram for the tail wheel installation Chapter 23M-7 figure 10. There are some who have expressed interest in reducing the tail wheel from the 9.25 inches to say 7 inches to get a higher deck angle. Do not do this as the geometry of the tail wheel is changed significantly. Stick with the manual or buy and test your own tail wheel and set the geometry with this new gear to allow the rudder to drive the tail wheel, prevent excess castor and proper rudder to tailwheel geometry so when the tail wheel turns, it does not jam or cause the tail wheel cable to pull the rudder uncommanded... Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Kingsley Hurst To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 2:16 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Bud, You said: "Should the tail wheel spring arm be installed about 2 inches higher than the manual described, the tail wheel geometry will actually drive the rudder and flick the tail wheel around when passing 60 degrees causing the tail wheel to restrict rudder movement and a loss of control will occur." Sorry but I'm not sure exactly what you mean . . . . are you saying that if the rear most part of the tailwheel spring is higher (rear of fuselage lower) or rear most part of the tailwheel sping is lower (rear of fuselage higher) ? Thanks Kingsley in Oz href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="h ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / 06/14/11 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:32 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Kingsley=0AI don't see any point in lowering the deck angle either. One adv erse effect will =0Abe to reduce the -ve angle of attack of the tailplane. And that will reduce the =0Adownload which you need to hold the tailwheel h ard down to give steering when =0Athe rudder starts to get tired, which it does below around 20 kts. The rudder =0Awill probably stall at full deflect ion around this speed. Less steering =0Aauthority.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0AFrom: Kingsley Hurst =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 26 June, 2011 12 :22:45=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel=0A=0A =0AApparently some people want to lower the tail of the aircraft a bit Bob but I =0Adon't know what they hope to achieve. It would make it that muc h harder to see =0Aover the nose which is already hard enough.=0A =0AI don 't have any drawing other than the instructions that came from Europa on =0Ahow to set up the tail wheel spring rod. I did mine as per the book as I =0Asuspect you did too.=0A =0ADon't worry about all this stuff Bob. Qui te often, the list gets a subject =0Athat everybody expounds upon and all it does is serve as a distraction from =0Awhat we should be doing.=0A =0AW e have just been away again for the last 3 days to see the house. It is =0Aalmost finished . . . . basically only the light fittings and switches to be =0Ainstalled now. Hopefully, construction will start on the hangar this week.=0A =0AI finish up at work on Thursday 30 June and start my long holiday. I have =0Aenough leave to carry me through until March of next year but I will officially =0Aresign before then. You are going to have t o start thinking about a trip up to =0Asee our new "Love Shack" mate !=0A =0AChat again soon.=0A =0AK=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: JR Gowing =0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Thursday , June 23, 2011 8:54 AM=0A>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel=0A>=0A>=0A>Kingsley=0A>I have been looking to try to s ee a drawing of the tailwheel area to see what =0A>people are wanting to lower=93 if you have that drawing at hand in your computer =0A>yo u might send me a copy =93 but do not waste your own time getting it up =93 =0A>just say you have not got it there.=0A>JR=0A>From:owne r-europa-list-server@matronics.com =0A>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@mat ronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly=0A>Sent: Thursday, 16 June 2011 12:56 AM=0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail whee l stops on the monowheel=0A> =0A>Kingsley,=0A>Look on the diagram for the tail wheel installation Chapter 23M-7 figure 10. =0A>There are som e who have expressed interest in reducing the tail wheel from =0A>the 9. 25 inches to say 7 inches to get a higher deck angle.=0A>Do not do th is as the geometry of the tail wheel is changed significantly. =0A>Stic k with the manual or buy and test your own tail wheel and set the geometry =0A>with this new gear to allow the rudder to drive the tail wheel, prev ent excess =0A>castor and proper rudder to tailwheel geometry so when th e tail wheel turns, =0A>it does not jam or cause the tail wheel cable to pull the rudder =0A>uncommanded...=0A> =0A>Regards,=0A>Bud=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>From:Kingsley Hurst =0A>>To:europa-list@matro nics.com =0A>>Sent:Monday, June 13, 2011 2:16 AM=0A>>Subject:Re: Europa-Lis t: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel=0A>> =0A>>Bud,=0A>> =0A>>You said:=0A>>"Should the tail wheel spring arm be installed about 2 inch es higher than =0A>>the manual described, the tail wheel geometry will actually drive the =0A>>rudder and flick the tail wheel around when p assing 60 degrees causing the =0A>>tail wheel to restrict rudder movem ent and a loss of control will =0A>>occur."=0A>> =0A>>Sorry but I 'm not sure exactly what you mean . . . . are you saying that =0A>>if the rear most part of the tailwheel spring is higher (rear of fuselage =0A>>lower) or rear most part of the tailwheel sping is lower (rear of fuselage =0A>>higher) ?=0A>> =0A>>Thanks=0A>>Kingsley in Oz=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?E uropa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://fo rums.matronics.com=0A>>=0A>>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c=0A> =0A> =0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigato r?Europa-List=0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution=0A> =0A>=0A________________________________=0A =0A>No virus fou nd in this message.=0A>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=0A>Version: 10.0.138 2 / 06/14/11=0A> =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa- List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m atronics.com=0A> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www. ==================== =0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:22 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service From: Paul McAllister Hi All, I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me the 'good, the bad and the ugly' Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:38 AM PST US From: nigel henry Subject: RE: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service I have spoken to Woodcomp several times and they are very professional an d they even have a Europa ! and I will be ordering a new prop this year for my Europa Nigel Henry Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service From: paul.the.aviator@gmail.com Hi All=2C I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000 W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the forum ab out there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me the 'good =2C the bad and the ugly' Thanks=2C Paul ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service From: Paul McAllister Hi Nigel Thanks for sharing your experience. I was wondering if you have ever sent your propeller in for service and if so how responsive are they. What I am particularly interested in learning about is there after sales service. On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 9:52 AM, nigel henry wrote: > I have spoken to Woodcomp several times and they are very professional > and they even have a Europa ! and I will be ordering a new prop this > year for my Europa Nigel Henry > do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:40 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR > 3000W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the > forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me > the 'good, the bad and the ugly' I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while before I have to replace them. Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop. A few notes though: 1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe characteristics. 2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never allows the RPM to surge off its target. Hope this helps, Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:22 PM PST US From: Jos Okhuijsen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life. I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short. The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were and ,after a change, still are not designed for outside use. Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open for weather. These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the Amp rating is way below the current going through them. The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current drawn. Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw. Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches, both other pilots could land their plane without damage to their plane or themselves. An incident with a loose gear, causing one of the blades at a totally diffent angle then the others was reported to me, and never made it to this forum. This seems to be the happy family show, which i am now spoiling. :-( It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain. or are just very lucky. In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short circuited, taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after take-off. I had been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day. Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands English, if he's not available you are on your own. After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller. What that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got there own controller working decently. As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep up with a 912 with a fixed prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The only good figure seems to be the price. So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life. The choice is yours.... Regards, Jos Okhuijsen (enjoying his second life :-) . 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman > > On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: >> I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR >> 3000W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the >> forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me >> the 'good, the bad and the ugly' > I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller > from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no > reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs > better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a > local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got > a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare > brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were > almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while > before I have to replace them. > > Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop. > A few notes though: > 1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very > configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe > characteristics. > 2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential > future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have > a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp > prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never > allows the RPM to surge off its target. > > Hope this helps, > > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:32 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service Paul=2C No problem with BEFORE sales service. And it is a good product.I had ordere d their original (2 instruments) controller and could not get it to work co rrectly=2C even after receiving a second set. I lost a whole season's flyin g due to extremely poor response from the factory. Only one person speaks E nglish=2C and he is not always there. Emails were not answered. Telephone c alls resulted in : oh=2C he is in a meeting. Promises like: I will ship it tomorrow would mean nothing was shipped for two weeks.At one point I was so frustrated that I contacted the Czech Embassy here in Canada and asked the m to call the factory. After that=2C things improved considerably. Their la test controller looks much better but I have no idea how it performs. One p ositive point about their controllers is that they come completely pre-wire d =2C as opposed to the Smartavionics one=2C which I switched to =2Cwhich i s a tedious DIY project. Woodcomp did refund the money for the controller. I found the Woodcomp agents in Canada and the US most unhelpful. The Canadi an agent especially is a real dickhead and did not seem to have a clue abou t the product. I had two motor failures=2C and now always carry a spare. On e was in flight in a very remote area in the US.Woodcomp responded immediat ely=2C but sent me the wrong motor.I have a 2-blade feathering SR3000/2W =2C the first on a Europa. I also had the first 10 inch spinner.More recent ly like last year I mentioned a small amount of play in my blade set=2C and they sent me a kit f.o.c.for the hub. It was an upgrade consisting of diff erent gears and spring washers=2C which I installed myself and everything s eems fine now.So there you have it.If you buy one and with the Smartavionic s=2C you are unlikely to need any after sales service. You should also orde r a spare motor and set of brushes to save on future shipping. Karl Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service From: paul.the.aviator@gmail.com Hi All=2C I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000 W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the forum ab out there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me the 'good =2C the bad and the ugly' Thanks=2C Paul ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service From: houlihan Hi Further to Jos's comments about his very serious accident I seem to recall that the Austrian authorities planned to issue a report regarding the possible cause. I may have missed it so can anyone let me know what it contained, preferably in English. Not being an expert in these things I find I have problems linking the limit switch failure Jos talks about to the fact that for the propeller to go to fully fine or even beyond fully fine to a beta state requires the motor to be powered to drive it there. I am sure there may be a mechanism that will make that happen but I cannot see how it can do that just because a limit switch fails. Also my understanding is that Woodcomp do not support the Smartavioncs controller not surprising really as it is not their product and it is in competition with them but " banning" it is beyond their remit. Tim H On 26 June 2011 20:10, Jos Okhuijsen wrote: > > Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life. > > I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short. > The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were and ,after > a change, still are not designed for outside use. > Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open for > weather. > These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the Amp > rating is way below the current going through them. > The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current drawn. > Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw. > > Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches, both other > pilots could land their plane without damage to their plane or themselves. > An incident with a loose gear, causing one of the blades at a totally > diffent angle then the others was reported to me, and never made it to this > forum. This seems to be the happy family show, which i am now spoiling. :-( > It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain. or are > just very lucky. > > In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short circuited, > taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after take-off. I had been > flying in heavy rain for hours the other day. > > Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands English, if > he's not available you are on your own. > > After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller. What that > means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got there own > controller working decently. > > As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep up with a 912 with a fixed > prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The only good figure > seems to be the price. > > So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life. > The choice is yours.... > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > (enjoying his second life :-) > > . 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman> *> >> >> On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: >> >>> I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR >>> 3000W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the >>> forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me >>> the 'good, the bad and the ugly' >>> >> I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller >> from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no >> reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs >> better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a >> local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got >> a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare >> brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were >> almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while >> before I have to replace them. >> >> Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop. >> A few notes though: >> 1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very >> configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe >> characteristics. >> 2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential >> future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have >> a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp >> prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never >> allows the RPM to surge off its target. >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> Frans >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:41 PM PST US From: josok-e Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service Tim, I've sent the report to somebody who is German en fluently in English, on his offer to translate. This translation takes an incredible amount of time obviously. But, as a matter of fact, the investigator thanks me for diverting from my line of descent into an occupied office building to trees. The wreckage was badly burnt. He also reports that he had Woodcomp check the remains of the propellor, and that they stated that the blades "must have been at a flyable angle" Also there was no obvious fault with the engine. It has not been possible to determine what the cause of the accident was. You may doubt of course that i have summarized properly as well. Significant might be also that after the accident Rotax was the first to talk to me, smartavionics next, the factory was very interested also. But no question, no word from Woodcomp. I find it strange that you start an argument by telling us that you are not an expert. And reach a conclusion, which is false. I am an expert, electricity, electronics have been my profession and hobby. I know microswitches and diodes, and if i tell you they are grossly underrated and not up wet conditions, you can take my word for it. My only interest is to save your lives. If you don't want it, please let me know. So, let me explain how the prop ended in a non-flyable position, so simple that a non-expert can understand. I commanded via the controller to go finer. That makes the motor run the blades to fine. The motor runs then as long as the controller command it to go finer or the fine limit switch cuts the current. In this case, because the desired rpm was high, and i was climbing, the fine limit switch should cut in. But it didn't because it was burnt, and short circuited to earth. The controller reversed it voltage to increase pitch and we had a short circuit on the plus now. The circuitbreaker popped. The revs went to 6200, with no pull. Attempting to reset it booted the controller. Which proved it was still working, And after the boot it popped again, The accident conditions were there, low on altitude, low on speed. I find it amazing that people defend such a product. Everybody i spoke to privatly admids there have been problems with communication, with quality of parts, with forgotten or loose parts, splitting blades, whatever. Oh, of course, they will cut the blades in a banana form, or apple, or anything else you fancy as fast. Very flexible indeed. There is a good working product available, has been for years, factory choice, with only plusses but the price. Everybody makes a mistake, and i can admit it was my mistake to go on the cheap and settle for a Woodcomp. Regards, Jos 27.6.2011 0:25, houlihan kirjoitti: > Hi > Further to Jos's comments about his very serious accident I seem to > recall that the Austrian authorities planned to issue a report > regarding the possible cause. I may have missed it so can anyone let > me know what it contained, preferably in English. > Not being an expert in these things I find I have problems linking the > limit switch failure Jos talks about to the fact that for the > propeller to go to fully fine or even beyond fully fine to a beta > state requires the motor to be powered to drive it there. I am sure > there may be a mechanism that will make that happen but I cannot see > how it can do that just because a limit switch fails. > Also my understanding is that Woodcomp do not support the Smartavioncs > controller not surprising really as it is not their product and it is > in competition with them but " banning" it is beyond their remit. > Tim H > > On 26 June 2011 20:10, Jos Okhuijsen > wrote: > > Hi > > Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life. > > I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short. > The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were > and ,after a change, still are not designed for outside use. > Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open > for weather. > These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the > Amp rating is way below the current going through them. > The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current > drawn. > Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw. > > Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches, > both other pilots could land their plane without damage to their > plane or themselves. An incident with a loose gear, causing one > of the blades at a totally diffent angle then the others was > reported to me, and never made it to this forum. This seems to be > the happy family show, which i am now spoiling. :-( > It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain. > or are just very lucky. > > In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short > circuited, taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after > take-off. I had been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day. > > Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands > English, if he's not available you are on your own. > > After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller. > What that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got > there own controller working decently. > > As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep up with a 912 with a > fixed prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The > only good figure seems to be the price. > > So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life. > The choice is yours.... > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > (enjoying his second life :-) > > . 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti: > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans > Veldman> > > On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got > with his SR > 3000W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some > feedback from the > forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp. > Please give me > the 'good, the bad and the ugly' > > I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the > propeller > from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I > had no > reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and > performs > better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did > that at a > local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was > missing and got > a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare > brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the > brushes were > almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while > before I have to replace them. > > Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop. > A few notes though: > 1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very > configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the > engine/airframe > characteristics. > 2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a > potential > future use of the glider wings). The props with feather > capability have > a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the > Woodcomp > prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it > never > allows the RPM to surge off its target. > > Hope this helps, > > Frans > > > =================================== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > =================================== > http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:54 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service Hi Paul, We had to return our prop (second hand) to Woodcomp several times (nothing to do with reliability - it's a long story). The gentleman I was dealing with Jiri Holubek (at least I think that's the correct spelling) was extremely helpful. On each occasion they replaced almost everything that showed any signs of wear. Brushes, gears, micro switches, wiring etc and the blades when returned could be mistaken for new. The prop was also rebalanced on each occasion I have only dealt by email but Jiri responds usually the same or next working day - his English is very good. On each occasion, the prop was serviced and returned within a week. Returning the prop to Czechoslovakia is a pricey exercise due to carriage costs but IMHO well worth it. If you need any more info email me directly - carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk Regards, Carl Pattinson G-LABS From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 26 June 2011 15:03 Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service Hi All, I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me the 'good, the bad and the ugly' Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:43 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service As far as I am aware Woodcomp do not ban the use of the Smart Avionics controller - Jiri was aware this was the controller of choice for me and didnt have a problem with it. Regarding the allegedly faulty micro-switches It has to be accepted that micro-switches occasionally fail and this is a potential risk. On the Woodcomp installation there are 2 microswitches that should prevent the prop going into superfine. If the first one fails, the second one cuts out 1 degree later. In addition to this, most of the Woodcomp props have a physical stop that prevents the blades from going into super fine. Its only when the reverse pitch option is used that this ultimate safety feature is lost. Moral of the story is don't have a prop that can go into reverse pitch. In the UK the LAA won't allow a CS prop without physical limit stops for that very reason. Carl Pattinson From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of houlihan Sent: 26 June 2011 22:25 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service Hi Further to Jos's comments about his very serious accident I seem to recall that the Austrian authorities planned to issue a report regarding the possible cause. I may have missed it so can anyone let me know what it contained, preferably in English. Not being an expert in these things I find I have problems linking the limit switch failure Jos talks about to the fact that for the propeller to go to fully fine or even beyond fully fine to a beta state requires the motor to be powered to drive it there. I am sure there may be a mechanism that will make that happen but I cannot see how it can do that just because a limit switch fails. Also my understanding is that Woodcomp do not support the Smartavioncs controller not surprising really as it is not their product and it is in competition with them but " banning" it is beyond their remit. Tim H On 26 June 2011 20:10, Jos Okhuijsen wrote: >Hi Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life. I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short. The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were and ,after a change, still are not designed for outside use. Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open for weather. These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the Amp rating is way below the current going through them. The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current drawn. Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw. Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches, both other pilots could land their plane without damage to their plane or themselves. An incident with a loose gear, causing one of the blades at a totally diffent angle then the others was reported to me, and never made it to this forum. This seems to be the happy family show, which i am now spoiling. :-( It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain. or are just very lucky. In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short circuited, taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after take-off. I had been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day. Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands English, if he's not available you are on your own. After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller. What that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got there own controller working decently. As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep up with a 912 with a fixed prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The only good figure seems to be the price. So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life. The choice is yours.... Regards, Jos Okhuijsen (enjoying his second life :-) . 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti: --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me the 'good, the bad and the ugly' I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while before I have to replace them. Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop. A few notes though: 1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe characteristics. 2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never allows the RPM to surge off its target. Hope this helps, Frans =================================== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List =================================== http://forums.matronics.com =================================== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:48 PM PST US From: "JR Gowing" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel K I am not changing the Singleton Tailwheel from what I have now! Thank you for the invitation to come up there again - I am keeping it ready for the next opportunity... Best Wishes to you and Janet! JR From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst Sent: Sunday, 26 June 2011 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Apparently some people want to lower the tail of the aircraft a bit Bob but I don't know what they hope to achieve. It would make it that much harder to see over the nose which is already hard enough. I don't have any drawing other than the instructions that came from Europa on how to set up the tail wheel spring rod. I did mine as per the book as I suspect you did too. Don't worry about all this stuff Bob. Quite often, the list gets a subject that everybody expounds upon and all it does is serve as a distraction from what we should be doing. We have just been away again for the last 3 days to see the house. It is almost finished . . . . basically only the light fittings and switches to be installed now. Hopefully, construction will start on the hangar this week. I finish up at work on Thursday 30 June and start my long holiday. I have enough leave to carry me through until March of next year but I will officially resign before then. You are going to have to start thinking about a trip up to see our new "Love Shack" mate ! Chat again soon. K ----- Original Message ----- From: JR Gowing Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 8:54 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Kingsley I have been looking to try to see a drawing of the tailwheel area to see what people are wanting to lower- if you have that drawing at hand in your computer you might send me a copy - but do not waste your own time getting it up - just say you have not got it there. JR From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly Sent: Thursday, 16 June 2011 12:56 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Kingsley, Look on the diagram for the tail wheel installation Chapter 23M-7 figure 10. There are some who have expressed interest in reducing the tail wheel from the 9.25 inches to say 7 inches to get a higher deck angle. Do not do this as the geometry of the tail wheel is changed significantly. Stick with the manual or buy and test your own tail wheel and set the geometry with this new gear to allow the rudder to drive the tail wheel, prevent excess castor and proper rudder to tailwheel geometry so when the tail wheel turns, it does not jam or cause the tail wheel cable to pull the rudder uncommanded... Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Kingsley Hurst Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 2:16 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Bud, You said: "Should the tail wheel spring arm be installed about 2 inches higher than the manual described, the tail wheel geometry will actually drive the rudder and flick the tail wheel around when passing 60 degrees causing the tail wheel to restrict rudder movement and a loss of control will occur." Sorry but I'm not sure exactly what you mean . . . . are you saying that if the rear most part of the tailwheel spring is higher (rear of fuselage lower) or rear most part of the tailwheel sping is lower (rear of fuselage higher) ? Thanks Kingsley in Oz href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / 06/14/11 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:50 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail wheel stops on the monowheel Apologies all . . . . last email was obviously not meant to go to the list. Anyway, you all now know what I'm up to. Cheers Kingsley ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:55 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Best device to ratify the Actual Fuel Flow on a 914 From: "sblack" I have the mgl ff1 and the ft60 red cube and there is a snag. The ft60 has a k factor of 68000 but the ff1 only allows k factors up to 60000! Have you dealt with this Ian? Thanks Scott -------- Scott Black Montreal Jodel F11 O-200 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344189#344189 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:20 PM PST US From: josok-e Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service Carl, Microswitches do not regularely fail. Their MTBF is typical one ot 10 million. However, thanks for confirming this, in this (Woodcomp) application they fail for 2 reasons. Wrong environment, not intended for outdoor use. Underrated for heavy DC current. Maybe an example helps. Take a look at the brake-light switch of your car. It would be a typical place for a microswitch, but instead a 4 times bigger lump sits there. Why? Because it has to switch DC, although far less then for a heavy motor. Becaue the inside of a car is not classiefied as dry, although it will seldom rain there. Failsafing with a second switch does not help. It just doubles the fail factor. In case of water ingress this might be clear, there are now 2 paths to short. As help for underrated switches, it is even for layman fairly easy to understand that due to unavoidable mechanical tolerances, the switches will never switch at te same time. As a result all load will be carried by one switch. Until it has melted, which will never be discovered until the second one goes. Unless it melts to ground. Another monkey story indeed is the mechanical stop. If all fails, that should stop the blades from running in idle. In flying you have to be sure that your minimal pitch is flyable. How sure are you that your mechanical stop A does keep you in the air and B does not burn your motor or break the gears? How many of you Woodcomp jockeys do test their electrical endstops on a regular bases? Who has ever tested the mechanical endstops? Maybe its is easyer to forget and just enjoy flying. But recommending your favourite deathtrap goes really one step too far. Wether you have a regular, reversing or feathering woodcomp prop. The prop on OH-XJO took 182 hours before it tried to kill me. Regards, Jos OKhuijsen 27.6.2011 2:05, Carl Pattinson kirjoitti: > > As far as I am aware Woodcomp do not ban the use of the Smart Avionics > controller Jiri was aware this was the controller of choice for me > and didnt have a problem with it. > > Regarding the allegedly faulty micro-switches It has to be accepted > that micro-switches occasionally fail and this is a potential risk. On > the Woodcomp installation there are 2 microswitches that should > prevent the prop going into superfine. If the first one fails, the > second one cuts out 1 degree later. > > In addition to this, most of the Woodcomp props have a physical stop > that prevents the blades from going into super fine. Its only when the > reverse pitch option is used that this ultimate safety feature is lost. > > Moral of the story is dont have a prop that can go into reverse > pitch. In the UK the LAA wont allow a CS prop without physical limit > stops for that very reason. > > Carl Pattinson > > *From:*owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *houlihan > *Sent:* 26 June 2011 22:25 > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp after Sales Service > > Hi > > Further to Jos's comments about his very serious accident I seem to > recall that the Austrian authorities planned to issue a report > regarding the possible cause. I may have missed it so can anyone let > me know what it contained, preferably in English. > > Not being an expert in these things I find I have problems linking the > limit switch failure Jos talks about to the fact that for the > propeller to go to fully fine or even beyond fully fine to a beta > state requires the motor to be powered to drive it there. I am sure > there may be a mechanism that will make that happen but I cannot see > how it can do that just because a limit switch fails. > > Also my understanding is that Woodcomp do not support the Smartavioncs > controller not surprising really as it is not their product and it is > in competition with them but " banning" it is beyond their remit. > > Tim H > > > On 26 June 2011 20:10, Jos Okhuijsen > wrote: > > > > Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life. > > I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short. > The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were and > ,after a change, still are not designed for outside use. > Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open for > weather. > These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the Amp > rating is way below the current going through them. > The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current drawn. > Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw. > > Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches, both > other pilots could land their plane without damage to their plane or > themselves. An incident with a loose gear, causing one of the blades > at a totally diffent angle then the others was reported to me, and > never made it to this forum. This seems to be the happy family show, > which i am now spoiling. :-( > It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain. or > are just very lucky. > > In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short > circuited, taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after > take-off. I had been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day. > > Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands > English, if he's not available you are on your own. > > After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller. What > that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got there > own controller working decently. > > As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep up with a 912 with a > fixed prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The only > good figure seems to be the price. > > So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life. > The choice is yours.... > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > (enjoying his second life :-) > > . 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti: > > Veldman> > > On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR > 3000W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the > forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me > the 'good, the bad and the ugly' > > I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller > from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no > reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs > better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a > local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got > a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare > brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were > almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while > before I have to replace them. > > Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop. > A few notes though: > 1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very > configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe > characteristics. > 2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential > future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have > a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp > prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never > allows the RPM to surge off its target. > > Hope this helps, > > Frans > > > =================================== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > =================================== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List* > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > ** > * * > > > * > > > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.