Europa-List Digest Archive

Wed 08/03/11


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:30 AM - Re: Re: Mysterious vibration on Europa Tri Gear (Frans Veldman)
     2. 12:36 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure again (Frans Veldman)
     3. 12:46 AM - SV: Fuel Pressure again (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
     4. 02:44 AM - Fuel Injection (Martin Olliver)
     5. 03:26 AM - Re: Fuel Injection (Frans Veldman)
     6. 06:02 AM - Re: SV: Fuel Pressure again (Karl Heindl)
     7. 09:16 AM - Re: Fuel Injection (Martin Olliver)
     8. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: Mysterious vibration on Europa Tri Gear (Jeff B)
     9. 11:53 AM - Re: Fuel Injection (Raimo Toivio)
    10. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Injection (Frans Veldman)
    11. 12:39 PM - Re: Fuel Injection (Frans Veldman)
    12. 01:03 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Injection (Nigel Graham)
    13. 01:28 PM - Re: Fuel Injection (Robert Borger)
    14. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Injection (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
    15. 05:44 PM - Re: Fuel Injection (Pete)
    16. 06:09 PM - Re: Fuel Injection (Paul McAllister)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:30:20 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Mysterious vibration on Europa Tri Gear
    For what it is worth: I have a small piece of tape to cover the hole of the rear wing pip pins. Recently the aft end of this tape came loose and I had 1 inch of tape end vibrating in the wind. Unaware of this, I was strucked by a sudden buzzing vibration through the ship. It behaved like described, with some speeds or prop settings it was gone, to return at certain speeds, but a few times by temporarily change a few parameters I could get it to stay away for a while. I'm still surprised how difficult it was to determine what the source of the vibration was, and how much vibration just 1 inch of tape can create. The sound of it was much louder than the engine sound and it appeared to come from everywhere. I was worried enough to consider an immediate off field landing (it could be flutter, or some critical part about to be teared off) but decided to wait a little to see how it would develop. At least the controls felt completely normal. After the landing I discovered this small piece of tape, the end ragged as a proof that it had been vibrating. After removing it the vibration was gone and never returned. Frans


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:36:06 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure again
    On 08/03/2011 03:09 AM, Karl Heindl wrote: > I would also like to wire a fuel pressure sender to my EIS. But where > would I find the T-adapter that the VDO sender is screwed into. What engine do you have? 912 or 914? In the latter case, Bob Borger has a good description about this double banjo bolt. But keep in mind that for a 914 you need a differential pressure sensor: One end is connected to the fuel line, the other end to the airbox. (If turbo boost goes up, the fuel pressure is regulated to go up with it). For a 912 you can probably get away with any T-piece and regular pressure sensor. Frans


    Message 3


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    Time: 12:46:54 AM PST US
    From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
    Subject: Fuel Pressure again
    Karl, I mounted my VDO sender on the firewall, with a piece of fuel hose connecting it to the branch-off from the main fuel line at the right side carb. There is no pressure drop in this piece of fuel hose since there is no flow. Svein


    Message 4


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    Time: 02:44:36 AM PST US
    Subject: Fuel Injection
    From: "Martin Olliver" <martflynut@aol.com>
    Any one know of this company in Germany? Web. www.silent-hektik.com/ul_912_1_htm They make among other things a retro fit fuel injection system for the Rotax 912. Looks a good system from the photos but I do not speak German and have thus far not tried to contact them for a translation. Has anyone fitted this system and if so how well did it perform? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348486#348486


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:26:06 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    On 08/03/2011 11:41 AM, Martin Olliver wrote: > Any one know of this company in Germany? Web. > www.silent-hektik.com/ul_912_1_htm This is the corrected URL: http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_1.htm I didn't know them, thanks! However, there is also an Italian company making a FI-retrokit system. The good news here is that they use the original carbs as throttle body for the fuel injection. You just get two new intake manifolds with injector ports molded in. The nice thing is that if the fuel injection fails, you can just open the fuel valve to the carbs and continue your flight. The have a demo movie where they switch back and forth between carbs and fuel injection without the engine stalling. I wouldn't just fit in fuel injection without fall back. There is no reliability data on the electronics for the fuel injection, nor enough data to make sure the engine doesn't run lean on *any* combinations of density, altitude, rpm, prop load, throttle setting, etc. If the engine runs too lean you risk burning holes in your pistons... And it makes your engine utterly dependent on electricity (unless you go for the Italian solution). What worries me too is that the German site makes false claims, like "Trouble free on ethanol". If there is any trouble with ethanol (and there is), it is not so much carb related but due to the behaviour in combination with moisture from the atmosphere. Ethanol binds water and can keep lots of water suspended in the fuel, until the temperature drops (typical at higher altitudes) where suddenly the water simply falls out of suspension, creating a pool of water at the bottom of the tank which wasn't there when you performed your pre-flight checks. Bad to find out about this while flying over the Alps... And no fuel injection, no matter how advanced, keeps the engine running on pure water either. BTW the main benefit of fuel injection is improved fuel economy. It isn't going to do miracles to the power. It will help a bit but I'm afraid not enough to make a real noticable difference. The improved fuel economy though might be worth it, if you care about fuel economy (improved economy, or improved range, or less fuel weight). Frans


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:02:34 AM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Fuel Pressure again
    Hi Svein=2CBob=2CPaul=2CFrans Many thanks. I should have realized that I don't need an inline connection =2C just a branch-off. That makes it pretty simple. Karl From: sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no Subject: SV: Europa-List: Fuel Pressure again Karl=2C I mounted my VDO sender on the firewall=2C with a piece of fuel hos e connecting it to the branch-off from the main fuel line at the right side carb. There is no pressure drop in this piece of fuel hose since there is no flow. Svein


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:16:57 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    From: "Martin Olliver" <martflynut@aol.com>
    Thank you Frans for the info. Having had time to look on the Internet I assume the Italian engineers you refer are EPA Power? I was thinking the system would be a lot simpler to maintain than Rotax stock carbs and fittings. Power increase was not so important. I believe 95 ish HP could be possible for the 912ul by fitting a different set of pistons if this was required. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348507#348507


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:26:36 AM PST US
    From: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Mysterious vibration on Europa Tri Gear
    Frans, You need some stronger tape... :) Jeff - Baby Blue do not archive On 8/3/2011 2:26 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman<frans@privatepilots.nl> > > For what it is worth: > I have a small piece of tape to cover the hole of the rear wing pip > pins. Recently the aft end of this tape came loose and I had 1 inch of > tape end vibrating in the wind. > Unaware of this, I was strucked by a sudden buzzing vibration through > the ship. It behaved like described, with some speeds or prop settings > it was gone, to return at certain speeds, but a few times by temporarily > change a few parameters I could get it to stay away for a while. > I'm still surprised how difficult it was to determine what the source of > the vibration was, and how much vibration just 1 inch of tape can > create. The sound of it was much louder than the engine sound and it > appeared to come from everywhere. > I was worried enough to consider an immediate off field landing (it > could be flutter, or some critical part about to be teared off) but > decided to wait a little to see how it would develop. At least the > controls felt completely normal. > After the landing I discovered this small piece of tape, the end ragged > as a proof that it had been vibrating. After removing it the vibration > was gone and never returned. > > Frans > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 11:53:22 AM PST US
    From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    Hi Martin This is slightly off-topic but I cannot resist: How about this vehicle engined by Rotax? Fuel injected, water cooled, three cylinder, four cyckles, super charged with intercooler, 255 HP @ 8000 rpm, 1493 cm3, very sophisticated sound and with extremely smooth endless power. Used to be inside GRP /composite structure. Very fast. It is my new toy but what is it? Cheers, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 Updated flight hours /landings: 37500 Lempaala FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio@fly.to www.rwm.fi -----Alkuper=E4inen viesti----- From: Martin Olliver Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 12:41 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Injection Olliver" <martflynut@aol.com> Any one know of this company in Germany? Web. www.silent-hektik.com/ul_912_1_htm They make among other things a retro fit fuel injection system for the Rotax 912. Looks a good system from the photos but I do not speak German and have thus far not tried to contact them for a translation. Has anyone fitted this system and if so how well did it perform? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348486#348486 browse Un/Subscription, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List Forums! List Admin.


    Message 10


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    Time: 12:39:30 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    On 08/03/2011 06:13 PM, Martin Olliver wrote: > Thank you Frans for the info. Having had time to look on the Internet > I assume the Italian engineers you refer are EPA Power? I was referring to these: http://www.flygas.info/en/kit-fly-safe.html Another thing you could do is to buy the modified intake manifolds only, and use some generic programmable aftermarket kit for the fuel injection. There exists also a high pressure fuel pump that will fit in place of the stock Rotax fuel pump. It is the same one Bob Borger has. > I was > thinking the system would be a lot simpler to maintain than Rotax > stock carbs and fittings. Well EFI-systems can sometimes be a nightmare to maintain. Clogged injectors, faulty sensors, lots of electrical wiring/connectors that can get dirty, oxidated or just develop faults for no apparent reason, etc. If maintenance is the issue, I believe that the stock configuration is more reliable and easier to maintain. Frans


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:39:49 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    On 08/03/2011 08:50 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > Hi Martin > > This is slightly off-topic but I cannot resist: > > How about this vehicle engined by Rotax? > > Fuel injected, water cooled, three cylinder, four cyckles, super charged > with intercooler, 255 HP @ 8000 rpm, 1493 cm3, very sophisticated sound > and with extremely smooth endless power. Used to be inside GRP > /composite structure. Very fast. > > It is my new toy but what is it? Boat? Frans


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:03:38 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    From: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
    BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } Well, your last topic covered the mundane subject of a flat tyre and that quickly developed into a full blown sexual fantasy, I can only hazzard a guess that that you have developed a new femail sex toy? (Can't wait to see where this will go ;-) Nigel On Wed 03/08/11 19:50 , "Raimo Toivio" raimo.toivio@rwm.fi sent: Hi Martin This is slightly off-topic but I cannot resist: How about this vehicle engined by Rotax? Fuel injected, water cooled, three cylinder, four cyckles, super charged with intercooler, 255 HP @ 8000 rpm, 1493 cm3, very sophisticated sound and with extremely smooth endless power. Used to be inside GRP /composite structure. Very fast. It is my new toy but what is it? Cheers, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 Updated flight hours /landings: 37500 Lempaala FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 www.rwm.fi [2] -----Alkuper=C3=A4inen viesti----- From: Martin Olliver Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 12:41 PM To: Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Injection Olliver" Any one know of this company in Germany? Web. www.silent-hektik.com/ul_912_1_htm [5] They make among other things a retro fit fuel injection system for the Rotax 912. Looks a good system from the photos but I do not speak German and have thus far not tried to contact them for a translation. Has anyone fitted this system and if so how well did it perform? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348486#348486 [6] browse Un/Subscription, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [7] Forums! List Admin. Links: ------ [2] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/parse.php?redirect=http://www.rwm.fi [5] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/parse.php?redirect=http://www.silent-hektik .com%2Ful_912_1_htm [6] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matr onics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D348486%23348486 [7] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matroni cs.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List


    Message 13


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    Time: 01:28:19 PM PST US
    From: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    Nigel, I'm not going to touch that one with a 3 meter pole. But I will guess snowmobile for Raimo's SuperDuper engine. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Europa XS, Short Wing, Intercooled Rotax 914 rlborger@mac.com Cel: 817-992-1117 On Aug 3, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Nigel Graham wrote: > Well, your last topic covered the mundane subject of a flat tyre and that quickly developed into a full blown sexual fantasy, I can only hazzard a guess that that you have developed a new femail sex toy? > > (Can't wait to see where this will go ;-) > > > Nigel


    Message 14


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    Time: 04:39:07 PM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    Nevertheless, a good fuel injection system would always be better than =0Ac arburetors which on the 91x engines never give even distribution, just watc h =0Athe EGTs.. Question is how do you achieve it? =0A=0Aregards Frans=0AGr aham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frans Veldman < frans@privatepilots.nl>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0A=0AWell EFI-syste ms can sometimes be a nightmare to maintain. Clogged=0Ainjectors, faulty se nsors, lots of electrical wiring/connectors that can=0Aget dirty, oxidated or just develop faults for no apparent reason, etc.=0AIf maintenance is the issue, I believe that the stock configuration is=0Amore reliable and easie r to maintain.=0A=0AFrans=0A


    Message 15


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    Time: 05:44:42 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    Seadoo, a big and very fast seadoo :-) Endless coolant supply, and I wonder what their longevity/reliability is? Cheers, Pete a239 On Aug 3, 2011, at 3:37 PM, Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl> wrote: > > On 08/03/2011 08:50 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: >> Hi Martin >> >> This is slightly off-topic but I cannot resist: >> >> How about this vehicle engined by Rotax? >> >> Fuel injected, water cooled, three cylinder, four cyckles, super charged >> with intercooler, 255 HP @ 8000 rpm, 1493 cm3, very sophisticated sound >> and with extremely smooth endless power. Used to be inside GRP >> /composite structure. Very fast. >> >> It is my new toy but what is it? > > Boat? > > Frans > > > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 06:09:52 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuel Injection
    From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
    I'll bite. Jet Ski? Do not archive On Wednesday, August 3, 2011, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote: > Hi Martin > > This is slightly off-topic but I cannot resist: > > How about this vehicle engined by Rotax? > > Fuel injected, water cooled, three cylinder, four cyckles, super charged with intercooler, 255 HP @ 8000 rpm, 1493 cm3, very sophisticated sound and with extremely smooth endless power. Used to be inside GRP /composite structure. Very fast. > > It is my new toy but what is it? > >




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