---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/07/11: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:46 AM - Re: FlowScan Problems (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 2. 04:58 AM - Re: FlowScan Problems (Karl Heindl) 3. 11:50 AM - Re: Exhaust Pipe Security (Bud Yerly) 4. 01:17 PM - Re: FlowScan Problems (Bud Yerly) 5. 03:13 PM - Re: FlowScan Problems (Karl Heindl) 6. 04:04 PM - Re: FlowScan Problems (Bud Yerly) 7. 06:11 PM - Fuel out the vent tubes (egp8111) 8. 06:37 PM - Re: Fuel out the vent tubes (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 9. 10:50 PM - SV: FlowScan Problems (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:46:30 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems On mine it is pin 25, my EIS is a 1998 model updated around 2003.=0AGraham =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Karl Heindl =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 7 August, 2011 1 :32:09=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems=0A=0A =0AOn my diagram it says 4.8V on pin23.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0ADate: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:11:50 +0100=0AFrom: grahamsingleton@btinternet. com=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems=0ATo: europa-list@matroni cs.com=0A=0A=0AJohn=0Athere is also a regulated 5v supply from the EIS I fo rgot which pin it is but I =0Acan find out iof you need it=0AGraham=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Frans Veldman =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, 6 August, 2 011 16:47:44=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems=0A=0A--> Europa- List message posted by: Frans Veldman =0A=0AOn 08/0 6/2011 11:59 AM, John Greenhalgh wrote:=0A> I have checked the ground and t hats OK and then I checked the voltage=0A> of the power source at the conne ctor to the sensor between the red and=0A> black wires and this was 10.6 vo lts which is a surprise=0A=0AIf I recall correctly this sensor needs 5 Volt s. If that is the case it=0Ais not surprising that it drags the supply down to 10.6Volts. You might=0Ahave damaged the flowscan, but check to be sure what the required=0Avoltage is, I hope for you tSearch & Download, 7-Day Br owse, Chat, gt; =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A_; -Matt Dralcontribution" ========0A=0A=0A=0A=0A target="_blank" >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List =0Ahttp://forums.matronics. ========= =0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:40 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems Interesting. Mine is about the same vintage. For pin 25 it says :fuel flow input connects to white wire of Floscanmodel 201B sensor. From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems On mine it is pin 25=2C my EIS is a 1998 model updated around 2003. Graham From: Karl Heindl Sent: Sunday=2C 7 August=2C 2011 1:32:09 Subject: RE: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems On my diagram it says 4.8V on pin23. From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems John there is also a regulated 5v supply from the EIS I forgot which pin it is b ut I can find out iof you need it Graham From: Frans Veldman Sent: Saturday=2C 6 August=2C 2011 16:47:44 Subject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems On 08/06/2011 11:59 AM=2C John Greenhalgh wrote: > I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage > of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and > black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise If I recall correctly this sensor needs 5 Volts. If that is the case it is not surprising that it drags the supply down to 10.6Volts. You might have damaged the flowscan=2C but check to be sure what the required voltage is=2C I hope for you tSearch & Download=2C 7-Day Browse=2C Chat=2C gt=3B http://forums.matronics.com _=3B -Matt Dralcontribution" ====== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/con=============== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:36 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Exhaust Pipe Security Jim, Sorry to be absent from the list but these 60 hour weeks are making great progress, however I have had to give up the time of getting into these discussions: I too have had enough of the clamping problems. I now weld a small loop of welding rod onto the tail pipe just outboard or the various clamps that are on each model engine/year group of engine/tail pipe combination. The loop is safetied to the engine frame or support for the muffler. This is just a derivation of a more permanent type fix rather than Andy's sheet metal screw. I fear the screw will back out so I weld on a loop. I have tried an experiment as the clamping of my tail pipe got old as it got loose, every other flight, so I had my tail pipe welded on as an experiment three years ago. No problems after the total 300 hours. I have a slightly larger exhaust pipe exit hole, and my expert welder made sure there was not heat creep and potential cracking later on at the TIG weld point. The trigear leg hole in the bottom of the cowl is a bit larger and arced to clear the leg for easy installation of the cowl... On the mono this is not necessary. Regards to Heather, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: h&jeuropa To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 9:16 AM Subject: Europa-List: Exhaust Pipe Security > On our 914 powered XS, the exhaust pipe that comes thru the engine cowl gets loose. We once actually had it fall off, fortunately just prior to takeoff! We've tried hi temp nuts, safety wiring the nut and made a longer nut from steel rod which is safety wired, but still the pipe gets loose after a few hours. Yesterday, we noticed an old Tech Talk article from Dec 2002 where Andy suggests drilling thru the stub of the muffler and the tailpipe and inserting a self tapping screw. Then you are to arrange the screw to be under the circular clamp. Has anyone done this and does it work? Jim & Heather N241BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348356#348356 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:05 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems John, It sounds like you need to look at your model as well as wire chasing the EIS/flow scan hookups, as others have so expertly given you advise for. There are different variations for the GRT EIS and differences in the wiring. EASY WAY: Send the unit to GRT and tell Sandy what you want. She'll set up the unit and send the proper wiring diagrams to suit your situation. The flow scan sensor itself is very trustworthy and I doubt it is the problem. However if that is your only problem don't stop flying, as FF is a nice to have. HARDER WAY. Model 2000 is wired differently than Model 4000. The older 4000 models had to be modified for dual fuel flow. Model 2000 and early 4000 were set up for single fuel flow. So power up and find out what version you have. The 2000 is ideal for the 912 but not the 914. Get to know what version you have and study the manuals. The single fuel flow is OK for the 912/912S, and the 914 needs to have the dual fuel flow EIS 4000 mod. Sandy at GRT can send you the wiring schematic/manuals if that is all you need. Attached is an .xlsx file which is my standard wiring hookup for GRT EIS dual fuel flow on the Model 4000 for a 914 and it works. Also attached is the model 2000 wiring hookup from a subie I did years ago, note it is significantly different. I haven't done a 2000 in 10 years (I get them converted) so I am a bit rusty, but I know that for under $400 the Model 2000 can be upgraded to a 4000 the way you want it if you need dual fuel flow or desire additional Aux inputs. It sounds as if you were not supplied with the manuals from the panel builder, so have Sandy email them to you. Hook up is a piece of cake, just follow the schematic. When you call GRT, be sure to explain your particular setup and version, and they will give the the necessary recommendations and offer recommendations, If you send the EIS to them, they'll have the techs set it up for you. Then it is just plug and play, (after you do the setup / calibration procedures in the manual for proper reading of the fuel flow, of course). Regards, Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: John Greenhalgh To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 5:59 AM Subject: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems > I'm still in the process of inital flight testing and now finding the Flowscan always reads 0.0 on my Grand Rapids EIS. All the connections appear correct (previous project builder). Just wondering if anyone could suggest a way forward. I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise as the power cable is connected to the regulated 12 volt supply direct from the EIS. This may or may not be the probem but I'm now in the dark with solving this puzzle. Is there any way to check the output from the Flowscan white sensor wire? I would welcome any suggestions. Regards John http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:55 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems Hi Bud=2C If I read you correctly=2C the 2000 would give me fuel flow with just one F loscan ? I have a 912s. Karl From: budyerly@msn.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems John=2C It sounds like you need to look at your model as well as wire chasing the EIS/flow scan hookups=2C as others have so expertly given you advise for. There are different variations for the GRT EIS and differences in the wiring. EASY WAY: Send the unit to GRT and tell Sandy what you want. She'll set up the unit and send the proper wiring diagrams to suit your situation. The flow scan sensor itself is very trustworthy and I doubt it is the problem. However if that is your only problem don't stop flying=2C as FF is a nice to have. HARDER WAY. Model 2000 is wired differently than Model 4000. The older 4000 models had to be modified for dual fuel flow. Model 2000 and early 4000 were set up for single fuel flow. So power up and find out what version you have. The 2000 is ideal for the 912 but not the 914. Get to know what version you have and study the manuals. The single fuel flow is OK for the 912/912S=2C and the 914 needs to have the dual fuel flow EIS 4000 mod. Sandy at GRT can send you the wiring schematic/manuals if that is all you need. Attached is an .xlsx file which is my standard wiring hookup for GRT EIS dual fuel flow on the Model 4000 for a 914 and it works. Also attached is the model 2000 wiring hookup from a subie I did years ago =2C note it is significantly different. I haven't done a 2000 in 10 years (I get them converted) so I am a bit rusty=2C but I know that for und er $400 the Model 2000 can be upgraded to a 4000 the way you want it if you ne ed dual fuel flow or desire additional Aux inputs. It sounds as if you were not supplied with the manuals from the panel builder=2C so have Sandy email them to you. Hook up is a piece of cake=2C just follow the schematic. When you call GRT=2C be sure to explain your particular setup and version =2C and they will give the the necessary recommendations and offer recommendations=2C If you send the EIS to them=2C they'll have the techs se t it up for you. Then it is just plug and play=2C (after you do the setup / calibration procedures in the manual for proper reading of the fuel flow =2C of course). Regards=2C Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: John Greenhalgh To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday=2C August 06=2C 2011 5:59 AM Subject: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems m> I'm still in the process of inital flight testing and now finding the Flowscan always reads 0.0 on my Grand Rapids EIS. All the connections appear correct (previous project builder). Just wondering if anyone could suggest a way forward. I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise as the power cable is connected to the regulated 12 volt supply direct from the EIS. This may or may not be the probem but I'm now in the dark with solving this puzzle. Is there any way to check the output from the Flowscan white sensor wire? I would welcome any suggestions. Regards nbsp=3B Features Chat=2C http://www.matronnbsp=3B via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p=3B generous bsp=3B title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ================ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:25 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems Yes, The EIS 2000 will work with the supplied GRT fuel flow option. If you add on the fuel flow after purchase, the unit should only need to be programmed (really easy) and on the very old EIS 2000 units, it may need to go back to GRT for upgrade. My particular experience was installing a GRT 2000 (purchased as a two stroke unit by accident, i.e. it was cheaper) bought in 1999. I then hooked up the customers supplied Floscan senders. I couldn't get it to work. I then called GRT and found, the model I had needed to be upgraded for $375 (new wiring inside), so I sent it to them and had them upgrade the 2000 to a 4000 for a couple bucks more, and on return, it worked right out of the box after a one week turn around. Again, Grand Rapids is the expert on the 2000 models years, programming and setup. I just know it will work fine with one Floscan on a 912S (where the small amount of fuel through the return line with orifice is not counted) when ordered direct from GRT with the fuel flow option. The 2000 is quite a deal price wise, and is fine for the basic 912S. However, it does not have all the capabilities of the 4000. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Heindl To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 6:10 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems Hi Bud, If I read you correctly, the 2000 would give me fuel flow with just one Floscan ? I have a 912s. Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: budyerly@msn.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 16:13:54 -0400 John, It sounds like you need to look at your model as well as wire chasing the EIS/flow scan hookups, as others have so expertly given you advise for. There are different variations for the GRT EIS and differences in the wiring. EASY WAY: Send the unit to GRT and tell Sandy what you want. She'll set up the unit and send the proper wiring diagrams to suit your situation. The flow scan sensor itself is very trustworthy and I doubt it is the problem. However if that is your only problem don't stop flying, as FF is a nice to have. HARDER WAY. Model 2000 is wired differently than Model 4000. The older 4000 models had to be modified for dual fuel flow. Model 2000 and early 4000 were set up for single fuel flow. So power up and find out what version you have. The 2000 is ideal for the 912 but not the 914. Get to know what version you have and study the manuals. The single fuel flow is OK for the 912/912S, and the 914 needs to have the dual fuel flow EIS 4000 mod. Sandy at GRT can send you the wiring schematic/manuals if that is all you need. Attached is an .xlsx file which is my standard wiring hookup for GRT EIS dual fuel flow on the Model 4000 for a 914 and it works. Also attached is the model 2000 wiring hookup from a subie I did years ago, note it is significantly different. I haven't done a 2000 in 10 years (I get them converted) so I am a bit rusty, but I know that for under $400 the Model 2000 can be upgraded to a 4000 the way you want it if you need dual fuel flow or desire additional Aux inputs. It sounds as if you were not supplied with the manuals from the panel builder, so have Sandy email them to you. Hook up is a piece of cake, just follow the schematic. When you call GRT, be sure to explain your particular setup and version, and they will give the the necessary recommendations and offer recommendations, If you send the EIS to them, they'll have the techs set it up for you. Then it is just plug and play, (after you do the setup / calibration procedures in the manual for proper reading of the fuel flow, of course). Regards, Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: John Greenhalgh To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 5:59 AM Subject: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems > I'm still in the process of inital flight testing and now finding the Flowscan always reads 0.0 on my Grand Rapids EIS. All the connections appear correct (previous project builder). Just wondering if anyone could suggest a way forward. I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise as the power cable is connected to the regulated 12 volt supply direct from the EIS. This may or may not be the probem but I'm now in the dark with solving this puzzle. Is there any way to check the output from the Flowscan white sensor wire? I would welcome any suggestions. Regards nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ================ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:18 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fuel out the vent tubes From: "egp8111" I'm returning my 912ul monowheel the flight status after not being flown in several years. The problem I have is that when I turn on the electric fuel pump ,gas runs out of the vent tubes on the carbs. It's never done that before. Obviously I have some stuck needle valves, just seems odd that both carbs are doing the same thing. Anyone have in suggestion on where to start troble shooting this thing. thanks EG Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348876#348876 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel out the vent tubes From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi EG I have a BMW R100GS that has two type 64 Bing Carbs. It has happened to me several times after sitting for a long period (even if I run out of fuel before storage), carb snot forms and glues the floats to the bottom position. Be sure to clean the enrichment circuit jets in the float bowl along with the rest of the carb or you will not be able to get the motor running unless you hand choke it of course. Ron Parigoris > > I'm returning my 912ul monowheel the flight status after not being flown > in several years. The problem I have is that when I turn on the electric > fuel pump ,gas runs out of the vent tubes on the carbs. It's never done > that before. Obviously I have some stuck needle valves, just seems odd > that both carbs are doing the same thing. Anyone have in suggestion on > where to start troble shooting this thing. > > thanks > EG > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348876#348876 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:11 PM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems Bud, I am one of the very many who greatly appreciate the knowledge you share with the Europa community and all the time you spend to help us out when a problem occurs. Your last posting puzzled me, however, because I have a different experience: You write: >Again, Grand Rapids is the expert on the 2000 models years, programming and setup. I just know it will work fine with one Floscan >on a 912S (where the small amount of fuel through the return line with orifice is not counted) when ordered direct from GRT with >the fuel flow option. I have a 912ULS, GRT EIS with fuel flow option and installed the Floscan that was supplied by GRT in the fuel line (I do not have the model number at hand, but for this discussion it is not important). After calibration of the flow reading, I found to my big surprise that the return flow through the orifice was in the 10 litres range (roughly 4 gallons) per hours. As the return flow varies with the fuel pressure (and therefore to some extent depends on the engine RPM), I did not wish to base my "consumption reading" on an unknown return flow to be subtracted. I therefore first installed a shut-off valve in the return line (mounted on the tunnel side, to be operated during flight) for short-period reading of flow during my test flights, to determine consumption and most economical speed. Later, I have replaced it with Electronics International's fuel totalizer, which has a flow pickup both in the feed and the return line - superb instrument. I was very surprised that the return flow is this high (at least in my installation, where I think I have the restrictor with the correct orifice installed!), but concluded that the reason is the very low viscosity in gasoline compared to for example water. It of course makes sense to have a significant return flow, as the objective is to flush through the fuel system forward of the firewall with "cold" fuel, especially on the ground when idling or taxiing, when the consumption flow is very low, to reduce the risk of vapor lock. Kind regards, Svein LN-SKJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.