---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/13/11: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:03 AM - Stall Warner (david park) 2. 04:17 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 (Kingsley Hurst) 3. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 (Trevpond@aol.com) 4. 11:47 AM - Anyone willing to give me a fly in a mono - bucks//beds area (graeme bird) 5. 11:50 AM - Re: Stall Warner (Frans Veldman) 6. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 (Frans Veldman) 7. 03:39 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 8. 06:18 PM - Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long! (Matt Dralle) 9. 08:53 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 (Kingsley Hurst) 10. 09:23 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 (Kingsley Hurst) 11. 09:44 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 (Kingsley Hurst) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:50 AM PST US From: david park Subject: Europa-List: Stall Warner While calibrating the Europa Stall Warner I have had trouble fine tuning th e screw adjustment. I have rigged up a test kit on the ground and find if you connect the plast ic tube to the other side of the sensor=2C opposite to that shown in the Mo d drawings it seems to work better--on the ground!!! Got to try is in the air yet. Has anyone else had any experience setting up the stall warner. Dave G-LDVO ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:35 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 Fellow Listers, Almost 3 weeks ago, Tony Renshaw posted the following plea on my behalf. My apologies for not repsonding before this but circumstances have prevented me from doing so. I would sincerely like to thank those who came forward with suggestions which are now repoduced below together with my responses / comments. The long and the short of it is that given the remoteness of our landing aerodrome, the lack of testing equipment and time constraints, we left the aircraft thankfully in a hangar and intend returning soon to retrieve it with my trailer. Tony's posting . . . . > I've got a mate, who we all know, Kingsley, trying to fly a 914 a long > distance downunder that is giving him angst. Its running rough, real > rough. It seems that at boost power it just simply cuts out! Also, in > cruise when going to climb power it has begun to run really rough. He is a > long way from home trying to limp it home, so any suggestions would be > greatly appreciated. To elaborate, he has flown it 2 hours on AVGAS with > no obvious problem until going to climb power when it ran so rough they > had to pull the power back and land ASAP, luckily with an aerodrome > closeby. Now, it runs rough on the ground too.not sure of what power > settings but I recall they can't get boost happening. The local Rotax > agent says that AVGAS with lead can wreck a set of plugs in no time, so, > they have a new set of plugs about to be installed. Fuel will be drained > and high octane super unleaded mogas will be used instead. The system will > be drained. So, I'm wondering if ASAP those in the know can beam downunder > the "good goss" that can help Kingsley get this bird home. BRIAN DAVIS . . . . > Sorry to hear of Kingsley's troubles. It is difficult to diagnose such a > problem remotely but there are a couple of obvious things to check. If > the engine runs smoothly at lower power settings and cuts out at higher > power settings I would strongly suspect a fuel flow restriction as first > guess. I suggest he does a fuel flow check to see if he is getting enough > flow. Next check that there are no air leaks caused by carb mount > failure/pipes adrift/blocked. Check both carbs are opening together/ no > problems with throttle cables. It could be ignition and changing the plugs and fuel at least eliminates some things but it is unlikely that a short period on Avgas would cause plug failure. Response . . . We are convinced the problem is fuel or rather lack of however, we did fuel flow tests the result of which was 10 litres over a 4 minute period on each of the two fuel pumps. This equates to 150 LPH which is more than enough for the 914. Inspection of the gascolator and another filter revealed they were as clean as a whistle. There were no visible signs of any fuel leaks around the float bowls, carb mounts all appeared normal as did everything else we checked by looking and feeling. Both carbs opened very smoothly and in unison. Both throttle valves simultaneously contact idle stops and in turn, the full throttle stops. There was absolutely no sign of any sticking throttle cables. We replaced the fuel and fitted new spark plugs only because we were advised to do so by the Rotax agent. We were not convinced it would have any effect (and it didn't) but we did as advised because we thought we had nothing to lose. We now have a spare set of spark plugs as a result of the exercise. JIM BROWN . . . . . > Try this. turn off the turbo with the Isolation switch....Do a run up, if > you get full power, and no missing, without the turbo, then leave the > turbo out of the circuit and fly home.... The fuel regulator on top of the airbox is bad. As the engine RPM is going to full power, at about 4400 RPM the missing starts.,the fuel regulator on top of the airbox, is supposed to shut off the return fuel, so that all fuel is avaiable for the turbo. In other words the engine is starving for fuel under boost. The engine will run just fine as a non-turbo..... Response . . . . . Turning the turbo isolation switch off was one thing we hadn't thought to try Jim so when Tony relayed your message, I had high hopes it would be the answer to a maiden's prayer. Alas, it had no effect so you can imagine my disappointment. I am however convinced the problem IS the fuel pressure regulator Jim but not having the equipment to do any tests and with very limited tools available, we were unable to check it. The fact that the regulator is common to both carbs indicates to me a logical reason why the engine completely cut like it did on 3 occasions. On one occasion when the throttle was left open, the engine all but stopped before it fired up again. This aircraft had not been flown for 2 years and I suspect the diaphragm may have dried out and become porous or some dried out fuel residue may be in some orifice or something else just as sinister. I may be talking crap here because I have not yet seen the inside of a 914 regulator. Now that I have read your full posting, with hindsight and as a result of the steep learning curve I have been on regarding the 914, maybe if I had clamped off the fuel return line somewhat, we may have at least seen some change in the running to confirm we might be on the right track. KEVIN KLINEFELTER . . . . > You can check the operation of the turbo wastegate on the ground. Observe > the wastegate arm move through it's test cycle when the master is turned > on, to see if it is sticking. Sounds like carburators to me. He can inspect and clean the float bowls without removing the carbs from the engine ( 19 mm bolt on the bottom of the bowls, torque to 5.5nm). Also make sure that the carbs are balanced Response . . . . Wastegate works perfectly on turn on thanks Kevin. Have repeatedly observed it cycle as you suggested. Because of the sophiscated fuel drain trays under the carbs, we were unable to remove the float bowls and didn't have sufficient tools to go any further. However, a few weeks before we picked up the aircraft, a yearly inspection was carried out during which the carbs were both removed, checked and some gaskets replaced. The carbs were also balanced. The complete cutting of the engine we experienced leads me to believe it would not be the carbs because I cannot see two carbs failing simultaneously except for lack of fuel as aforementioned in my response to Jim. WILLIAM DANIELL . . . . > I use 100% AVGAS and in my experience no it doesn't. Plugs last 50 hours > no problem. I have never had a set of plugs foul up in nearly 7 years - > I admit I change them every 25 hours. I have this sort of issue after an overhaul and it had to do with two things. Part of the problem was one of the tubes from the airbox the carb had come loose and unbalanced the carbs Secondly the mating between the turbo and the engine was "out" - which meant that the turbo was providing too much or too little boost relative to the power setting. We tested the system by making the wastegate "manual" with a vernier cable. Response . . . . I agree with you about the AVGAS William. The plugs in this engine had only done 3.5 hrs at the time so it would need to be special Avgas to stuff them in that amount of time. On inspection, the plugs showed signs of running a bit lean if anything which would be consistent with the rough running at higher power settings I would think. There was no sign of lead in them and during the 4 hour return trip by car to purchase new plugs, we had the removed plugs tested on a plug tester. All were Ok. I have not yet had the chance to check the other items you mention William so am unable to comment on those yet but they will be checked at a later stage thanks. PAUL McALLISTER . . . . > If Kingsley's airplane only has a couple of hours on it then I'd be > looking at the fuel filters. I pulled an unbelievable amount of crap out > of the filters for the first 50 hours and I was very careful (or so I > thought) to make sure that fuel system was clean before my first flight. Response . . . . . This aircraft has done 330 hours Paul but nothing for 2 years. As mentioned earlier, we did check the filters to no avail and a fuel flow check proved satisfactory. When I finally get to flying my own aircraft Paul, rest assured your suggestion will be strictly followed. Thank you again one and all for your contributions. Many heads are certainly better than a couple as bereft of 914 knowledge as ours were at the time. I will advise the outcome in due course. Best regards Kingsley ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:57 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 Kingsley, I have a 914 Engined XS Trigear. A year or so ago, I had a rough running engine, had the Rotax Engineer up just before the problem started to service it, and then the trouble starte d. When I did the engine checks, all OK, even tried doing them with the prop fully coarse, still OK. Start up the runway, push through the gate into full turbo, then the engine popped and banged and misfired! Float bowls w ere checked, filters changed, fuel flow checked, jets checked, airbox rubbers checked, turbo wastegate checked, just about everything you could think of .. The problem turned out to be the carb slides. All they needed was a very light polish and some lubrication and hey presto, a fully serviceable engine! They had not been running level, despite the cables being spot-on and so the carbs were massively out of balance on full throttle. After the lubrication, they both operated perfectly and balanced without adjustment. As your Engine had not been run for a long time, suggest you have a look and lubricate the slides. best regards Trev G-LINN In a message dated 13/08/2011 12:17:50 GMT Daylight Time, kingsnjan@westnet.com.au writes: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" Fellow Listers, Almost 3 weeks ago, Tony Renshaw posted the following plea on my behalf. My apologies for not repsonding before this but circumstances have prevented me from doing so. I would sincerely like to thank those who came forward with suggestions which are now repoduced below together with my responses / comments. The long and the short of it is that given the remoteness of our landing aerodrome, the lack of testing equipment and time constraints, we left the aircraft thankfully in a hangar and intend returning soon to retrieve it with my trailer. Tony's posting . . . . > I've got a mate, who we all know, Kingsley, trying to fly a 914 a long > distance downunder that is giving him angst. Its running rough, real > rough. It seems that at boost power it just simply cuts out! Also, in > cruise when going to climb power it has begun to run really rough. He is a > long way from home trying to limp it home, so any suggestions would be > greatly appreciated. To elaborate, he has flown it 2 hours on AVGAS with > no obvious problem until going to climb power when it ran so rough they > had to pull the power back and land ASAP, luckily with an aerodrome > closeby. Now, it runs rough on the ground too.not sure of what power > settings but I recall they can't get boost happening. The local Rotax > agent says that AVGAS with lead can wreck a set of plugs in no time, so, > they have a new set of plugs about to be installed. Fuel will be drained > and high octane super unleaded mogas will be used instead. The system will > be drained. So, I'm wondering if ASAP those in the know can beam downunder > the "good goss" that can help Kingsley get this bird home. BRIAN DAVIS . . . . > Sorry to hear of Kingsley's troubles. It is difficult to diagnose such a > problem remotely but there are a couple of obvious things to check. If > the engine runs smoothly at lower power settings and cuts out at higher > power settings I would strongly suspect a fuel flow restriction as first > guess. I suggest he does a fuel flow check to see if he is getting enough > flow. Next check that there are no air leaks caused by carb mount > failure/pipes adrift/blocked. Check both carbs are opening together/ no > problems with throttle cables. It could be ignition and changing the plugs and fuel at least eliminates some things but it is unlikely that a short period on Avgas would cause plug failure. Response . . . We are convinced the problem is fuel or rather lack of however, we did fuel flow tests the result of which was 10 litres over a 4 minute period on each of the two fuel pumps. This equates to 150 LPH which is more than enough for the 914. Inspection of the gascolator and another filter revealed they were as clean as a whistle. There were no visible signs of any fuel leaks around the float bowls, carb mounts all appeared normal as did everything else we checked by looking and feeling. Both carbs opened very smoothly and in unison. Both throttle valves simultaneously contact idle stops and in turn, the full throttle stops. There was absolutely no sign of any sticking throttle cables. We replaced the fuel and fitted new spark plugs only because we were advised to do so by the Rotax agent. We were not convinced it would have any effect (and it didn't) but we did as advised because we thought we had nothing to lose. We now have a spare set of spark plugs as a result of the exercise. JIM BROWN . . . . . > Try this. turn off the turbo with the Isolation switch....Do a run up, if > you get full power, and no missing, without the turbo, then leave the > turbo out of the circuit and fly home.... The fuel regulator on top of the airbox is bad. As the engine RPM is going to full power, at about 4400 RPM the missing starts.,the fuel regulator on top of the airbox, is supposed to shut off the return fuel, so that all fuel is avaiable for the turbo. In other words the engine is starving for fuel under boost. The engine will run just fine as a non-turbo..... Response . . . . . Turning the turbo isolation switch off was one thing we hadn't thought to try Jim so when Tony relayed your message, I had high hopes it would be the answer to a maiden's prayer. Alas, it had no effect so you can imagine my disappointment. I am however convinced the problem IS the fuel pressure regulator Jim but not having the equipment to do any tests and with very limited tools available, we were unable to check it. The fact that the regulator is common to both carbs indicates to me a logical reason why the engine completely cut like it did on 3 occasions. On one occasion when the throttle was left open, the engine all but stopped before it fired up again. This aircraft had not been flown for 2 years and I suspect the diaphragm may have dried out and become porous or some dried out fuel residue may be in some orifice or something else just as sinister. I may be talking crap here because I have not yet seen the inside of a 914 regulator. Now that I have read your full posting, with hindsight and as a result of the steep learning curve I have been on regarding the 914, maybe if I had clamped off the fuel return line somewhat, we may have at least seen some change in the running to confirm we might be on the right track. KEVIN KLINEFELTER . . . . > You can check the operation of the turbo wastegate on the ground. Ob serve > the wastegate arm move through it's test cycle when the master is turned > on, to see if it is sticking. Sounds like carburators to me. He can inspect and clean the float bowls without removing the carbs from the engine ( 19 mm bolt on the bottom of the bowls, torque to 5.5nm). Also make sure that the carbs are balanced Response . . . . Wastegate works perfectly on turn on thanks Kevin. Have repeatedly observed it cycle as you suggested. Because of the sophiscated fuel drain trays under the carbs, we were unable to remove the float bowls and didn't have sufficient tools to go any further. However, a few weeks before we picked up the aircraft, a yearly inspection was carried out during which the carbs were both removed, checked and some gaskets replaced. The carbs were also balanced. The complete cutting of the engine we experienced leads me to believe it would not be the carbs because I cannot see two carbs failing simultaneously except for lack of fuel as aforementioned in my response to Jim. WILLIAM DANIELL . . . . > I use 100% AVGAS and in my experience no it doesn't. Plugs last 50 hours > no problem. I have never had a set of plugs foul up in nearly 7 years - > I admit I change them every 25 hours. I have this sort of issue after an overhaul and it had to do with two things. Part of the problem was one of the tubes from the airbox the carb had come loose and unbalanced the carbs Secondly the mating between the turbo and the engine was "out" - which meant that the turbo was providing too much or too little boost relative to the power setting. We tested the system by making the wastegate "manual" wit h a vernier cable. Response . . . . I agree with you about the AVGAS William. The plugs in this engine had only done 3.5 hrs at the time so it would need to be special Avgas to stuff them in that amount of time. On inspection, the plugs showed signs of running a bit lean if anything which would be consistent with the rough running at higher power settings I would think. There was no sign of lead in them and during the 4 hour return trip by car to purchase new plugs, we had the removed plugs tested on a plug tester. All were Ok. I have not yet had the chance to check the other items you mention William so am unable to comment on those yet but they will be checked at a later stage thanks. PAUL McALLISTER . . . . > If Kingsley's airplane only has a couple of hours on it then I'd be > looking at the fuel filters. I pulled an unbelievable amount of crap out > of the filters for the first 50 hours and I was very careful (or so I > thought) to make sure that fuel system was clean before my first flight. Response . . . . . This aircraft has done 330 hours Paul but nothing for 2 years. As mentioned earlier, we did check the filters to no avail and a fuel flow check proved satisfactory. When I finally get to flying my own aircraft Paul, rest assured your suggestion will be strictly followed. Thank you again one and all for your contributions. Many heads are certainly better than a couple as bereft of 914 knowledge as ours were at the time. I will advise the outcome in due course. Best regards Kingsley ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:47:06 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Anyone willing to give me a fly in a mono - bucks//beds area From: "graeme bird" I am about finished and ready for final inspections and paperwork sign off. I have never flown in a Europa and dont worry, I dont intend to test fly mine, but is there anyone near me in Milton Keynes who would be prepared to take me up in a mono for an hour or so? I could even fly and meet someone somewhere (in my C42). I have a number of options on a test pilot but my favourite, has around 300 hours mono but would also like to fly one for a refresher - he has thousands of hours, I have around 500 on c150, PA28. TB9, Rallye etc -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP Build nearing completion Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349322#349322 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:31 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stall Warner On 08/13/2011 12:00 PM, david park wrote: > While calibrating the Europa Stall Warner I have had trouble fine tuning > the screw adjustment. > I have rigged up a test kit on the ground and find if you connect the > plastic tube to the other side of the sensor, opposite to that shown in > the Mod drawings it seems to work better--on the ground!!! I'm not sure what you are trying to do, but you can't adjust it on the ground. You need proper airflow over the wings to get the thing working. On the ground, the aircraft is technically in a stalled condition, but due to lack of air flow the state is undetermined. My stall warner behaves erratically on the ground. Most often it is off, but just a slight breeze will trigger it. Sometimes it is activated on the ground, but gets quiet during the take off roll. While flying it works perfect. Occasionally it gives a chirp in turbulence when the aircraft momentarily sinks into a void, and of course during the landing flare it reassures me that we are indeed landing. ;-) Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:01 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 On 08/13/2011 01:14 PM, Kingsley Hurst wrote: > The fuel regulator on top of the airbox is bad. As the engine RPM is > going to full power, at about 4400 RPM the missing starts.,the fuel > regulator on top of the airbox, is supposed to shut off the return fuel, > so that all fuel is avaiable for the turbo. No that is not how it works. It just maintains proper fuel pressure over the airbox pressure. It is just a pressure valve, opening the return if the pressure gets higher, closing it a bit more when the pressure gets lower. Even during full power plenty of fuel returns to the tank. This is intentional to overcome filter losses and to prevent vapor lock. This situation again shows the importance of a differential fuel pressure gauge. Why not install one now permanently, and see what is going on, now you have to hook up a gauge anyway? It is a must have for the 914. Without such a gauge you can't tell whether your regulator is working correctly, or that your filters are clogging, or whatever. If a differential fuel pressure gauge shows a healthy value you can pretty much rule out the majority of the fuel related problems. I would place my bets on the carb slides, just like Trev said. It is common that after some months out of use the slides get a very small layer of oxidation due to lack of fuel, and they get a bit "sticky". You might not notice it on the ground, but temperature changes might be enough to get the slides stuck during flight. There have been a couple of crashes exactly due to this phenomenon. If they get sticky they usually limit the power, or get stuck in the full power configuration and flood the engine when the pilot reduces power. In both instances the engine cuts, typically in an awkward situation. > I am however convinced the problem IS the > fuel pressure regulator Without a differential gauge you really can't tell. > Now that I have read your full posting, with hindsight and as a result > of the steep learning curve I have been on regarding the 914, maybe if I > had clamped off the fuel return line somewhat, we may have at least seen > some change in the running to confirm we might be on the right track. It wouldn't tell anything, even if the engine runs better. You might overcome the improper mixture due to a stuck slide by changing the fuel pressure outside the normal range, but for sure this fix wouldn't be airworthy. It would be similar like intentionally clogging the fuel filter to keep your engine running with the choke stuck in the activated position. Clogging the fuel filter would make the engine run better in this situation, but it wouldn't be an airworthy fix either. Never mess with the fuel return of the 914, or you risk flooding the carbs. Proper fuel pressure is of utter importance for the 914. Frans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:34 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 Kingsley=0Acan't remember but did you check the carbs? Standing for a coupl e of years isn't =0Agood, all sorts of crap comes out of the fuel including sometimes bacteria/yeast =0Adeposits which can block small jets in the car bs=0AI just cleaned my Andair gascolator after a year with not much running and that =0Ahad a fair amount of sludge in it.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____ ____________________________=0AFrom: Kingsley Hurst =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, 13 August, 2011 12:14 :19=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 t.com.au>=0A=0AFellow Listers,=0A=0AAlmost 3 weeks ago, Tony Renshaw posted the following plea on my behalf. My =0Aapologies for not repsonding befor e this but circumstances have prevented me =0Afrom doing so.=0AI would sinc erely like to thank those who came forward with suggestions which =0Aare no w repoduced below together with my responses / comments. The long and the =0Ashort of it is that given the remoteness of our landing aerodrome, the l ack of =0Atesting equipment and time constraints, we left the aircraft than kfully in a =0Ahangar and intend returning soon to retrieve it with my trai ler.=0A=0ATony's posting . . . .=0A> I've got a mate, who we all know, King sley, trying to fly a 914 a long distance =0A>downunder that is giving him angst. Its running rough, real rough. It seems that =0A>at boost power it j ust simply cuts out! Also, in cruise when going to climb =0A>power it has b egun to run really rough. He is a long way from home trying to =0A>limp it home, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. To elaborate, he =0A >has flown it 2 hours on AVGAS with no obvious problem until going to climb power =0A>when it ran so rough they had to pull the power back and land AS AP, luckily with =0A>an aerodrome closeby. Now, it runs rough on the ground too.not sure of what =0A>power settings but I recall they can't g et boost happening. The local Rotax =0A>agent says that AVGAS with lead can wreck a set of plugs in no time, so, they =0A>have a new set of plugs abou t to be installed. Fuel will be drained and high =0A>octane super unleaded mogas will be used instead. The system will be drained. =0A>So, I'm wonderi ng if ASAP those in the know can beam downunder the "good goss" =0A>that ca n help Kingsley get this bird home.=0A=0ABRIAN DAVIS . . . .=0A> Sorry to h ear of Kingsley's troubles. It is difficult to diagnose such a =0A>problem remotely but there are a couple of obvious things to check. If the =0A>en gine runs smoothly at lower power settings and cuts out at higher power =0A >settings I would strongly suspect a fuel flow restriction as first guess. I =0A>suggest he does a fuel flow check to see if he is getting enough flo w. Next =0A>check that there are no air leaks caused by carb mount failure /pipes =0A>adrift/blocked. Check both carbs are opening together/ no probl ems with =0A>throttle cables.=0A=0AIt could be ignition and changing the pl ugs and fuel at least eliminates some =0Athings but it is unlikely that a s hort period on Avgas would cause plug failure.=0A=0AResponse . . .=0AWe are convinced the problem is fuel or rather lack of however, we did fuel flow =0Atests the result of which was 10 litres over a 4 minute period on each o f the =0Atwo fuel pumps. This equates to 150 LPH which is more than enough for the 914. =0AInspection of the gascolator and another filter revealed they were as clean as a =0Awhistle.=0A=0AThere were no visible signs of any fuel leaks around the float bowls, carb =0Amounts all appeared normal as d id everything else we checked by looking and =0Afeeling. Both carbs opened very smoothly and in unison. Both throttle valves =0Asimultaneously conta ct idle stops and in turn, the full throttle stops. There =0Awas absolutel y no sign of any sticking throttle cables.=0A=0AWe replaced the fuel and fi tted new spark plugs only because we were advised to =0Ado so by the Rotax agent. We were not convinced it would have any effect (and =0Ait didn't) b ut we did as advised because we thought we had nothing to lose. We =0Anow have a spare set of spark plugs as a result of the exercise.=0A=0AJIM BROWN . . . . .=0A> Try this. turn off the turbo with the Isolation switch....Do a run up, if you =0A>get full power, and no missing, without the turbo, th en leave the turbo out of =0A>the circuit and fly home....=0AThe fuel regul ator on top of the airbox is bad. As the engine RPM is going to =0Afull po wer, at about 4400 RPM the missing starts.,the fuel regulator on top of =0A the airbox, is supposed to shut off the return fuel, so that all fuel is =0Aavaiable for the turbo. In other words the engine is starving for fuel u nder =0Aboost. The engine will run just fine as a non-turbo.....=0A=0ARespo nse . . . . .=0ATurning the turbo isolation switch off was one thing we had n't thought to try =0AJim so when Tony relayed your message, I had high hop es it would be the answer =0Ato a maiden's prayer. Alas, it had no effect so you can imagine my =0Adisappointment. I am however convinced the proble m IS the fuel pressure =0Aregulator Jim but not having the equipment to do any tests and with very limited =0Atools available, we were unable to check it. The fact that the regulator is =0Acommon to both carbs indicates to m e a logical reason why the engine completely =0Acut like it did on 3 occasi ons. On one occasion when the throttle was left =0Aopen, the engine all bu t stopped before it fired up again. This aircraft had not =0Abeen flown for 2 years and I suspect the diaphragm may have dried out and become =0Aporou s or some dried out fuel residue may be in some orifice or something else =0Ajust as sinister. I may be talking crap here because I have not yet see n the =0Ainside of a 914 regulator.=0ANow that I have read your full postin g, with hindsight and as a result of the =0Asteep learning curve I have bee n on regarding the 914, maybe if I had clamped =0Aoff the fuel return line somewhat, we may have at least seen some change in the =0Arunning to confir m we might be on the right track.=0A=0AKEVIN KLINEFELTER . . . .=0A> You ca n check the operation of the turbo wastegate on the ground. Observe the =0A >wastegate arm move through it's test cycle when the master is turned on, t o see =0A>if it is sticking.=0ASounds like carburators to me. He can inspec t and clean the float bowls without =0Aremoving the carbs from the engine ( 19 mm bolt on the bottom of the bowls, =0Atorque to 5.5nm). Also make sure that the carbs are balanced=0A=0AResponse . . . .=0AWastegate works perfe ctly on turn on thanks Kevin. Have repeatedly observed it =0Acycle as you suggested. Because of the sophiscated fuel drain trays under the =0Acarbs, we were unable to remove the float bowls and didn't have sufficient tools =0Ato go any further. However, a few weeks before we picked up the aircr aft, a =0Ayearly inspection was carried out during which the carbs were bot h removed, =0Achecked and some gaskets replaced. The carbs were also balan ced. The complete =0Acutting of the engine we experienced leads me to beli eve it would not be the =0Acarbs because I cannot see two carbs failing sim ultaneously except for lack of =0Afuel as aforementioned in my response to Jim.=0A=0AWILLIAM DANIELL . . . .=0A> I use 100% AVGAS and in my experienc e no it doesn't. Plugs last 50 hours no =0A>problem. I have never had a s et of plugs foul up in nearly 7 years - I admit I =0A>change them every 25 hours.=0AI have this sort of issue after an overhaul and it had to do with two things. =0APart of the problem was one of the tubes from the airbox t he carb had come loose =0Aand unbalanced the carbs=0ASecondly the mating be tween the turbo and the engine was "out" - which meant =0Athat the turbo wa s providing too much or too little boost relative to the power =0Asetting. We tested the system by making the wastegate "manual" with=0Aa vernier ca ble.=0A=0AResponse . . . .=0AI agree with you about the AVGAS William. The plugs in this engine had only =0Adone 3.5 hrs at the time so it would need to be special Avgas to stuff them in =0Athat amount of time. On inspectio n, the plugs showed signs of running a bit =0Alean if anything which would be consistent with the rough running at higher =0Apower settings I would th ink. There was no sign of lead in them and during the =0A4 hour return tri p by car to purchase new plugs, we had the removed plugs tested =0Aon a plu g tester. All were Ok. I have not yet had the chance to check the =0Aothe r items you mention William so am unable to comment on those yet but they =0Awill be checked at a later stage thanks.=0A=0APAUL McALLISTER . . . .=0A > If Kingsley's airplane only has a couple of hours on it then I'd be looki ng at =0A>the fuel filters. I pulled an unbelievable amount of crap out of the filters =0A>for the first 50 hours and I was very careful (or so I tho ught) to make sure =0A>that fuel system was clean before my first flight. =0A=0AResponse . . . . .=0AThis aircraft has done 330 hours Paul but nothin g for 2 years. As mentioned =0Aearlier, we did check the filters to no ava il and a fuel flow check proved =0Asatisfactory. When I finally get to fly ing my own aircraft Paul, rest assured =0Ayour suggestion will be strictly followed.=0A=0AThank you again one and all for your contributions. Many he ads are certainly =0Abetter than a couple as bereft of 914 knowledge as our s were at the time. I =0Awill advise the outcome in due course.=0A=0ABest = ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:24 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long! Just a heads up to those installing or planning on installing Bose X or A20 Active NR headsets using the inline power jacks. Specifically these units: http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/headphones/aviation_headsets/accessories/headset_installkit_acc.jsp They now come with only 3 feet of cable! Three years ago they came with 6 feet of cable and I thought at the time that 6 feet seemed a little short. Now 3 feet? What idiot penny pincher in Bose marketing decided "three feet should be plenty". Here's quote from the Bose web page above: "Three-foot wiring harness with six pin female connector allows for *placement in locations throughout aircraft*." WTF? On what planet will a 3-foot hardness reach "locations throughout the aircraft". That's just plain stupid. If these were third rate, el-cheapo headsets, I'd write it off to penny pinching, but for a >$1000 product that you then have to spend an additional $32 for an installation cable, cheaping out on the cable length is just simply unacceptable. I have the jacks mounted in the center of the RV-8, and the cables don't even reach to the righthand control console. What does Bose expect people to do; splice the wire? That's ridiculous! What would somebody installing in the back seats of a 4 or 6 place airplane do? Of course I wrote a scathing email to Bose Support just now. I'm sure they will write back with "for most of our customers, three feet is sufficient". Given this direction within Bose, I'd definitely consider the new Sennheiser S1 if I had to do it over again. Additionally, the Sennheiser's Bluetooth supports the A2DP, AVRCP STEREO profiles. The Bose A20's Bluetooth does NOT support stereo. It must have been the same marketing moron that dictated 3' cables that decided not to include stereo Bluetooth profiles. Unbelievable. Matt - Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:50 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 Trev, Many thanks for this heads-up. As I said in my posting, the carbs were removed and checked during the inspection and since I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the engineer, I have been tending to believe they should not be causing trouble. I have seen stranger things happen in the past so rest assured I will definitely check out the slides once I have the means to be able to do so. Really do appreciate the input from you 914 fellows. Cheers Kingsley ----- Original Message ----- From: Trevpond@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:18 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 Kingsley, I have a 914 Engined XS Trigear. A year or so ago, I had a rough running engine, had the Rotax Engineer up just before the problem started to service it, and then the trouble started. When I did the engine checks, all OK, even tried doing them with the prop fully coarse, still OK. Start up the runway, push through the gate into full turbo, then the engine popped and banged and misfired! Float bowls were checked, filters changed, fuel flow checked, jets checked, airbox rubbers checked, turbo wastegate checked, just about everything you could think of. The problem turned out to be the carb slides. All they needed was a very light polish and some lubrication and hey presto, a fully serviceable engine! They had not been running level, despite the cables being spot-on and so the carbs were massively out of balance on full throttle. After the lubrication, they both operated perfectly and balanced without adjustment. As your Engine had not been run for a long time, suggest you have a look and lubricate the slides. best regards Trev G-LINN ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:20 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 Hello Frans and thank you too for your input. > No that is not how it works. It just maintains proper fuel pressure over > the airbox pressure. It is just a pressure valve, opening the return if > the pressure gets higher, closing it a bit more when the pressure gets > lower. I was unaware of how the regulator works and still am to a large degree. What you say makes sense and when I get a chance to read some 914 literature, I hope to understand a lot more things about the 914. > This situation again shows the importance of a differential fuel > pressure gauge. Why not install one now permanently, and see what is > going on, now you have to hook up a gauge anyway? It is a must have for > the 914. Without such a gauge you can't tell whether your regulator is > working correctly, or that your filters are clogging, or whatever. If a > differential fuel pressure gauge shows a healthy value you can pretty > much rule out the majority of the fuel related problems. After the experience we had and seeing where the fuel pressure is taken from on this aircraft, I couldn't agree with you more Frans. Subsequent to viewing the Rotax Owners video on testing the regulator, I had already decided that a differential fuel pressure gauge is the meaningful way to go. The fuel pressure readings we are getting on this aircraft are next to useless on a 914. > I would place my bets on the carb slides, just like Trev said. It is > common that after some months out of use the slides get a very small > layer of oxidation due to lack of fuel, and they get a bit "sticky". As I said to Trev, this will be thoroughly checked out and now that I have been made aware of this phenomenon, I am certainly not discounting this as the cause. >> I am however convinced the problem IS the >> fuel pressure regulator > > Without a differential gauge you really can't tell. Well you will be pleased to know I am now not so convinced given the revelations about the carb slides. I agree that without a differential gauge I won't be able to tell and this is another test that I will be carrying out. >> Now that I have read your full posting, with hindsight and as a result >> of the steep learning curve I have been on regarding the 914, maybe if I >> had clamped off the fuel return line somewhat, we may have at least seen >> some change in the running to confirm we might be on the right track. > > It wouldn't tell anything, even if the engine runs better. You might > overcome the improper mixture due to a stuck slide by changing the fuel > pressure outside the normal range, but for sure this fix wouldn't be > airworthy. It would be similar like intentionally clogging the fuel > filter to keep your engine running with the choke stuck in the activated > position. . . . . . . . I wasn't for a moment suggesting that restricting the return line would be a FIX Frans, rather, I thought that in the middle of nowhere like we were (up the creek without a paddle so to speak!) it just might have been a method to help diagnose the problem but as you have pointed out, it might also have given us a bum steer. Thanks again Frans. Kingsley ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:06 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 G'day Graham, > can't remember but did you check the carbs? Standing for a couple of years isn't good, all sorts of crap comes out of the fuel including sometimes bacteria/yeast deposits which can block small jets in the > carbs No we didn't check the carbs Graham because we didn't have the means to be able to do so. The engineer who completed the inspection however, assured us that he had checked them thoroughly. Once we get the aircraft home, I will be able to check all items put forward by our fellow Europa owners and will hopefully be able to advise the outcome. This might take some time however because we are in the process of shifting house, getting a hangar built, doing final touches to the trailer to enable a 4,000 km round trip to rescue the aircraft and so it goes on . . .. . Arrrrrh ! > I just cleaned my Andair gascolator after a year with not much running and that had a fair amount of sludge in it. On checking our gascolator, I found it could not have been cleaner thanks mate. My son and I were so much looking forward to a great trip home but it wasn't to be. As well as the eventual engine problem, we couldn't go home the way we wished to go because of the shocking weather Melbourne put on for us. It was for this reason, we tried to go around the coast ending up in Mallacoota, the most South Easterly seaside township on the Australian mainland. Just a bit of trivia! 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