---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/27/11: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:37 AM - 914 Prop Question (Tony Renshaw) 2. 12:56 AM - Re: oil thermostat mod (graeme bird) 3. 01:00 AM - Tailwheel angle stop (graeme bird) 4. 01:09 AM - Re: 914 Prop Question (Tim Ward) 5. 01:19 AM - Tailwheel angle stop & weighing (graeme bird) 6. 01:27 AM - Re: Tailwheel angle stop (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 7. 01:59 AM - Re: Tailwheel angle stop & weighing (Carl Pattinson) 8. 02:07 AM - Re: 914 Prop Question (David Joyce) 9. 03:11 AM - Re: 914 Prop Question (Mike Toft) 10. 07:58 AM - Re: Rotax 914 Mothballed...what service??? (Tony Renshaw) 11. 08:00 AM - Re: 914 Prop Question (Tony Renshaw) 12. 10:34 AM - Re: 914 Prop Question (Fred Klein) 13. 11:54 AM - Re: 914 Prop Question (Rob Housman) 14. 12:18 PM - Re: 914 Prop Question (ROBERT LINDSAY) 15. 01:12 PM - Re: 914 Prop Question (Andrew Sarangan) 16. 01:27 PM - Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs (Rob Housman) 17. 01:45 PM - Re: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 18. 02:16 PM - Re: 914 Prop Question (David Joyce) 19. 02:17 PM - Fuel Filler Neck (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 20. 02:17 PM - Re: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs (Max Cointe) 21. 02:35 PM - Re: 914 Prop Question (G-IANI) 22. 02:50 PM - Re: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs (Jeff B) 23. 02:56 PM - Re: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs (Rob Housman) 24. 03:36 PM - Re: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs (Rob Housman) 25. 03:36 PM - Re: 914 Prop Question (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 26. 07:17 PM - Re: Fuel Filler Neck (Gavin and Anne Lee) 27. 07:53 PM - Re: 914 Prop Question,,,,,,,,Thanks for the responses (Tony Renshaw) 28. 09:03 PM - Re: 914 Prop Question (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:18 AM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth I still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other limitations are there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of a builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don't and thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, there might be some issues at altitude, although simplistically I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't matter. I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might be wrong with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone can contribute. Thanks Reg Tony Renshaw ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:41 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: oil thermostat mod From: "graeme bird" Thanks Steve, very helpful. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP Build nearing completion Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350715#350715 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:39 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Tailwheel angle stop From: "graeme bird" I am just at final inspection stage but I am not impressed with the small pin as the limit stop having already snapped it off once. I have seen a better way that looks to be part of the rod/rudder (graham singleton) mod. I dont want to redo all the inside rudder, but could I just use the limit bit does anyone know, and is it through Europa? -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP Build nearing completion Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350716#350716 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:52 AM PST US From: Tim Ward Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question Tony, I am not an expert. However, I believe, if you opt for the 914 Rotax then a constant speed propeller would be appropriate. Simply to utilize the extra power in the most efficient way allows you to get out of difficult situations. Airmaster propeller system is just a delight to use and such a reassurance in the countryside we fly over here. I know it comes from this side of the Tasman however you will be very pleased with the ingenuity and simplicity of the Airmaster. .. Hope all is well with you. Now flying the big one from the left seat I hear. I spent 14 years from the right seat and enjoyed it very much. Good luck on the industrial side, don't get locked out! Cheers, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand. ward.t@xtra.co.nz Ph 64 3 3515166 Mob 0210640221 On 27/08/2011, at 7:34 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > > Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth I still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other limitations are there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of a builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don't and thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, there might be some issues at altitude, although simplistically ! > I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't matter. I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might be wrong with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone can contribute. > Thanks > Reg > Tony Renshaw > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:00 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Tailwheel angle stop & weighing From: "graeme bird" I am just at final inspection stage but I am not impressed with the small pin as the limit stop having already snapped it off once while moving it around. I have seen a better way that looks to be part of the rod/rudder (graham singleton) mod. I dont want to redo all the inside rudder, but could I just use the limit bit does anyone know, and is it through Europa? Had the plane weighed, by that nice Roy Sears (inexpensive compared to PlaneWeights) measured 369.5 kg 814.6lb but I dont know if thats normal or what also cofg 1.534m 60.2" -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP Build nearing completion Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350718#350718 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailwheel angle stop From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Grame " I have seen a better way that looks to be part of the rod/rudder (Graham Singleton) mod. I don't want to redo all the inside rudder, but could I just use the limit bit does anyone know, and is it through Europa?" I tried to buy just the stop from Graham but at the time he didn't have any nor was he planning on making them. I think Europa is selling his Mod kit, perhaps you could get just the stop from them? I made my own stop along with several other tail wheel mods. See two pages: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27732&g2_page=1 Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:33 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailwheel angle stop & weighing Hello Graeme, You probably noticed that I have the same tail wheel installation as yours. Knowing that the roll pin had a reputation for snapping I never installed it and as far as I can see it doesn't affect the handling at all. When the aircraft is going forward the movement is curtailed by the rudder cables. I guess it depends on whether your inspector is happy with this (ie: the pin being removed). As you will have discovered when it snapped it serves no useful purpose. You just have to be a bit careful when pushing the aircraft backwards but as you may have noticed I have a trolley which the tail wheel drops into when I'm moving the aircraft in the hangar. Your aircraft weighs the same as ours - 815 lbs and the c of g at 60.2 is about as good as it gets. The limits are 58 - 62.5 with 60 being the ideal. I have the pilots handbook with the weighing and c of g notes if you would like to see these. I could scan and email the relavent pages. Regards, Carl G-LABS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of graeme bird Sent: 27 August 2011 09:17 Subject: Europa-List: Tailwheel angle stop & weighing I am just at final inspection stage but I am not impressed with the small pin as the limit stop having already snapped it off once while moving it around. I have seen a better way that looks to be part of the rod/rudder (graham singleton) mod. I dont want to redo all the inside rudder, but could I just use the limit bit does anyone know, and is it through Europa? Had the plane weighed, by that nice Roy Sears (inexpensive compared to PlaneWeights) measured 369.5 kg 814.6lb but I dont know if thats normal or what also cofg 1.534m 60.2" -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP Build nearing completion Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350718#350718 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:37 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question Tim, I wouldn't be without my wobbly prop - would rather trade in the 914 for a 912S if pressed to the choice. You may have a long runway to base yourself at but it's likely you will want to get in/out of a short grass strip or a shortish, high, hot runway where every bit of performance is welcome. There is also the consideration that the speed range of the Europa is so wide (stall speed less than a third of maximum cruise speed) that a fixed pitch prop inevitably seriously cramps performance at one or other end of the range.. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Ward" Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 9:08 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question > > Tony, > I am not an expert. However, I believe, if you opt for the 914 Rotax then > a constant speed propeller would be appropriate. Simply to utilize the > extra power in the most efficient way allows you to get out of difficult > situations. > Airmaster propeller system is just a delight to use and such a reassurance > in the countryside we fly over here. > I know it comes from this side of the Tasman however you will be very > pleased with the ingenuity and simplicity of the Airmaster. > . > > Hope all is well with you. Now flying the big one from the left seat I > hear. I spent 14 years from the right seat and enjoyed it very much. > > Good luck on the industrial side, don't get locked out! > > Cheers, > > Tim > > Tim Ward > 12 Waiwetu Street > Fendalton, > Christchurch, 8052 > New Zealand. > > ward.t@xtra.co.nz > > Ph 64 3 3515166 > Mob 0210640221 > > > On 27/08/2011, at 7:34 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > >> >> >> Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth >> I still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm >> nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on >> whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I >> know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style >> of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my >> engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I >> reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of >> Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a >> couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other >> limitations are there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of >> a builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I >> don't and thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know >> them. Also, there might be some issues at altitude, although >> simplisticall! > y ! >> I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't >> matter. I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might >> be wrong with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone >> can contribute. >> Thanks >> Reg >> Tony Renshaw >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:11:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question From: Mike Toft Tony, I have a 914 with the Airmaster Prop and the versatility and performance is exceptional - it is able to absorb almost any change of power setting and I seriously doubt a fixed pitch will be able to handle the additional 15hp boost at 115% - you will likely end up with an rpm overspeed - in which case stay with the 912S Mike On 27 Aug 2011, at 11:05 AM, David Joyce wrote: > > Tim, I wouldn't be without my wobbly prop - would rather trade in the 914 for a 912S if pressed to the choice. You may have a long runway to base yourself at but it's likely you will want to get in/out of a short grass strip or a shortish, high, hot runway where every bit of performance is welcome. There is also the consideration that the speed range of the Europa is so wide (stall speed less than a third of maximum cruise speed) that a fixed pitch prop inevitably seriously cramps performance at one or other end of the range.. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Ward" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 9:08 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question > > >> >> Tony, >> I am not an expert. However, I believe, if you opt for the 914 Rotax then a constant speed propeller would be appropriate. Simply to utilize the extra power in the most efficient way allows you to get out of difficult situations. >> Airmaster propeller system is just a delight to use and such a reassurance in the countryside we fly over here. >> I know it comes from this side of the Tasman however you will be very pleased with the ingenuity and simplicity of the Airmaster. >> . >> >> Hope all is well with you. Now flying the big one from the left seat I hear. I spent 14 years from the right seat and enjoyed it very much. >> >> Good luck on the industrial side, don't get locked out! >> >> Cheers, >> >> Tim >> >> Tim Ward >> 12 Waiwetu Street >> Fendalton, >> Christchurch, 8052 >> New Zealand. >> >> ward.t@xtra.co.nz >> >> Ph 64 3 3515166 >> Mob 0210640221 >> >> >> On 27/08/2011, at 7:34 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote: >> >>> >>> Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth I still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other limitations are there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of a builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don't and thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, there might be some issues at altitude, although simplisticall! >> y ! >>> I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't matter. I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might be wrong with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone can contribute. >>> Thanks >>> Reg >>> Tony Renshaw >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 Mothballed...what service??? From: Tony Renshaw Hey Bob, About my 914, still in its box, "no" I haven't checked with Bert Flood. What I want is to get a perspective other than Bert Floods of what is required. I want to check up on what they tell me, but I am attempting to do it in reverse order. So, the plan was to get overseas opinion such that I would know what the collective view was of what I needed to do, before I spoke to Bert Flood Imports. Anyway, right or wrong, that was the plan. Reg Tony R. On 26/08/2011, at 5:24 PM, JR Gowing wrote: > > Tony > Did you read your manual? > Why not ask the agent in Melbourne? > JR > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw > Sent: Monday, 15 August 2011 5:18 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 Mothballed...what service??? > > --> > > My engine, a 914 is a 2004 model, and still sits in its new box. I bought it > a couple of years ago and am wondering about what advice people would > recommend in relation to maintaining its integrity, and maybe modding it at > the same time. I wish to get it serviced by my local Rotax dealer, to > inspect and protect it. A work colleague who is an ex car mechanic mentioned > the crankshaft bearing housings can absorb moisture and corrosion can > therefore occur. Not sure if this sort of concern is applicable to my > engine, but in essence that is like an engine rebuild. What should I > consider doing? > Lastly, if it did need the block being split, is there a metal coating I > could have applied, even paint, that would stop that "corroded look" some > engines develop as they get older??' > Thanks > Tony Renshaw > Sydney Aussie. > > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question From: Tony Renshaw Thanks Tim, Getting locked out might have the up side in that I might finish my Europa !! TR On 27/08/2011, at 6:08 PM, Tim Ward wrote: > > Tony, > I am not an expert. However, I believe, if you opt for the 914 Rotax then a constant speed propeller would be appropriate. Simply to utilize the extra power in the most efficient way allows you to get out of difficult situations. > Airmaster propeller system is just a delight to use and such a reassurance in the countryside we fly over here. > I know it comes from this side of the Tasman however you will be very pleased with the ingenuity and simplicity of the Airmaster. > . > > Hope all is well with you. Now flying the big one from the left seat I hear. I spent 14 years from the right seat and enjoyed it very much. > > Good luck on the industrial side, don't get locked out! > > Cheers, > > Tim > > Tim Ward > 12 Waiwetu Street > Fendalton, > Christchurch, 8052 > New Zealand. > > ward.t@xtra.co.nz > > Ph 64 3 3515166 > Mob 0210640221 > > > On 27/08/2011, at 7:34 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > >> >> Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth I still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other limitations are there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of a builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don't and thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, there might be some issues at altitude, although simplisticall! > y ! >> I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't matter. I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might be wrong with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone can contribute. >> Thanks >> Reg >> Tony Renshaw >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:27 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question Hi Tony, You wrote: > I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to > comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could > work on a 914. I first met Catto (that would be Craig, not "Bob") in the mid-70s when he was a 15 yr. old kid carving props in his parents' garage...rather audacious stuff...I think I've seen the recent videos to which you refer...as you know, he now has an impressive record for designing and building specialty props for a broad spectrum of aircraft and uses. Glenn Crowder (on the europa list) is very happy w/ his Catto on his 125 hp Sube-powered Classic which he flies out of Golden, CO (@5000+ ASL)...Glenn can compare performance w/ (I believe) his in-flight adjustable NSI prop. If you can track down the CAFE test data done on Kim Prout's Classic and forward it to Catto, perhaps that info could guide Catto to be able to estimate what he can do in the way of a FP prop for your XS...he, of course, has his data from Glenn's prop as well. As others have opined, matching the Europa to a FP prop is somewhat counter intuitive, but depending upon your operational requirements, I suspect it might work for you. Fred ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:07 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question You can see the CAFE report here: http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_cafe_apr/Europa%20APR.pdf Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Rotax 914 S/N A070 Airframe complete Avionics soon -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question Hi Tony, You wrote: > I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to > comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work > on a 914. I first met Catto (that would be Craig, not "Bob") in the mid-70s when he was a 15 yr. old kid carving props in his parents' garage...rather audacious stuff...I think I've seen the recent videos to which you refer...as you know, he now has an impressive record for designing and building specialty props for a broad spectrum of aircraft and uses. Glenn Crowder (on the europa list) is very happy w/ his Catto on his 125 hp Sube-powered Classic which he flies out of Golden, CO (@5000+ ASL)...Glenn can compare performance w/ (I believe) his in-flight adjustable NSI prop. If you can track down the CAFE test data done on Kim Prout's Classic and forward it to Catto, perhaps that info could guide Catto to be able to estimate what he can do in the way of a FP prop for your XS...he, of course, has his data from Glenn's prop as well. As others have opined, matching the Europa to a FP prop is somewhat counter intuitive, but depending upon your operational requirements, I suspect it might work for you. Fred ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:56 PM PST US From: "ROBERT LINDSAY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question About the turn of the century the Europa Florida US office tested various engine/prop combinations. One conclusion was that the 914 fixed prop combination had a signicant issue at higher altitudes. The 914 having a critical altitude of 16Kft resulted in needing to reduce throttle setting to prevent prop overspeed as one climbed into the teens. It seems to me that if you are not going to go high or don't have density altitude problems, you are better off with a 912. Bob Lindsay 914/Whirlwind XS Monowheel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Renshaw" Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 12:34 AM Subject: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question > > Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth I > still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm > nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on > whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I > know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style > of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my > engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I reckon > my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of Bob Catto > speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a couple of > hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other limitations are > there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of a builder of > anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don't and thats > why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, > there might be some issues at altitude, although simplistically ! > I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't matter. > I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might be wrong > with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone can > contribute. > Thanks > Reg > Tony Renshaw > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:15 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question Not sure if this makes sense or not, but how about installing a simple fixed pitch first and then upgrading to a constant speed? My feeling is that the chances of ground loops or prop strikes are greater during the first few months of flying. I recall reading about a landing gear failure while taxiing. On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 6:07 AM, Mike Toft wrote: > > Tony, > > I have a 914 with the Airmaster Prop and the versatility and performance is exceptional - it is able to absorb almost any change of power setting and I seriously doubt a fixed pitch will be able to handle the additional 15hp boost at 115% - you will likely end up with an rpm overspeed - in which case stay with the 912S > Mike > On 27 Aug 2011, at 11:05 AM, David Joyce wrote: > >> >> Tim, I wouldn't be without my wobbly prop - would rather trade in the 914 for a 912S if pressed to the choice. You may have a long runway to base yourself at but it's likely you will want to get in/out of a short grass strip or a shortish, high, hot runway where every bit of performance is welcome. There is also the consideration that the speed range of the Europa is so wide (stall speed less than a third of maximum cruise speed) that a fixed pitch prop inevitably seriously cramps performance at one or other end of the range.. >> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Ward" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 9:08 AM >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question >> >> >>> >>> Tony, >>> I am not an expert. However, I believe, if you opt for the 914 Rotax then a constant speed propeller would be appropriate. Simply to utilize the extra power in the most efficient way allows you to get out of difficult situations. >>> Airmaster propeller system is just a delight to use and such a reassurance in the countryside we fly over here. >>> I know it comes from this side of the Tasman however you will be very pleased with the ingenuity and simplicity of the Airmaster. >>> . >>> >>> Hope all is well with you. Now flying the big one from the left seat I hear. I spent 14 years from the right seat and enjoyed it very much. >>> >>> Good luck on the industrial side, don't get locked out! >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> Tim Ward >>> 12 Waiwetu Street >>> Fendalton, >>> Christchurch, 8052 >>> New Zealand. >>> >>> ward.t@xtra.co.nz >>> >>> Ph 64 3 3515166 >>> Mob 0210640221 >>> >>> >>> On 27/08/2011, at 7:34 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth I still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other limitations are there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of a builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don't and thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, there might be some issues at altitude, although simplistica! > ll! >>> y ! >>>> I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't matter. I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might be wrong with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone can contribute. >>>> Thanks >>>> Reg >>>> Tony Renshaw >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:58 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs I've encountered another one of those "minor" problems I have come to accept as normal with the factory's step child, the Tri-Gear. The diameter of the Landing Gear Frame is 1.55 inch (39.4 mm) and the opening in the spring that must hook onto it is 1.35 inch (34.3 mm). This seems to allow for either of two solutions, neither one particularly elegant. 1) use brute force to deform the hook in the spring, 2) cut off some of the end of the hook. Comments and suggestions from those who have perhaps already dealt with this, or anyone else for that matter, would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Rotax 914 S/N A070 Airframe complete Avionics soon ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:54 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:35 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question Tony, One benefit of a VP prop that I don't believe has been mentioned but which reference to ground looping brings to mind is that in fine pitch the slowing down effect of the idling prop is very noticeably greater than in coarse pitch. If you are trying to glide somewhere and the prop pitch change system still works, fine pitch is a great asset whereas to stop in a short distance you definitely want it in fine. On T/Off fine pitch also takes you very quickl;y through the dodgy steering phase if you have a mono. Clearly a fixed pitch prop is going to miss out somewhat on both counts. So I guess you are less likely to lose control on the ground and end up ground looping if you have a VP/CS prop. Incidentally have you looked at the list of flying planes on the Europa Club website where engines & props are listed for pretty much every flying Europa? Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:05 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Filler Neck I went out to calibrate my Princeton Capacitance meter today and the first step is to fill the tank. I Have the metal tube between the filler neck and the tank with a black rubber coupling on each end, between the metal and the glass filler neck, and the metal and the glass tank. I found that gas leaked a little on both ends of the metal tube. When I used a paper towel to clean the gas off, it had a big, black streak on it from the rubber coupling tube. More gas, more black. The tube looks like radiator hose, but I am sure it came with the kit. If avgas is causing it to break down, am I using the proper material on both ends? If not, what should be used? Jim Puglise A283 -- Close to flying ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:22 PM PST US From: "Max Cointe" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs Hi there, Bought the mod71 and installed it last July. Fitted perfectly to the gear frame, so either the springs are not the right ones or your frame is wrong=85 Cheers, Max Cointe Auxerre, France Kit #560 3-gear 912ULS / 385 hours De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Rob Housman Envoy=E9 : samedi 27 ao=FBt 2011 22:24 =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs I=92ve encountered another one of those =93minor=94 problems I have come to accept as normal with the factory=92s step child, the Tri-Gear. The diameter of the Landing Gear Frame is 1.55 inch (39.4 mm) and the opening in the spring that must hook onto it is 1.35 inch (34.3 mm). This seems to allow for either of two solutions, neither one particularly elegant. 1) use brute force to deform the hook in the spring, 2) cut off some of the end of the hook. Comments and suggestions from those who have perhaps already dealt with this, or anyone else for that matter, would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Rotax 914 S/N A070 Airframe complete Avionics soon ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:19 PM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question Graeme There are two LAA standard Mod to fit an oil thermostat to a 912. You will find this under Rotax 9xx mods rather than under Europa. SM12808 is a little more expensive. Let me know if you have any questions. I have attached a copy for you. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:37 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs Rob, I used a cutoff tool and trimmed the end of the spring. Works fine for 5+ years... Jeff - Baby Blue On 8/27/2011 3:24 PM, Rob Housman wrote: > Ive encountered another one of those minor problems I have come to > accept as normal with the factorys step child, the Tri-Gear. > > The diameter of the Landing Gear Frame is 1.55 inch (39.4 mm) and the > opening in the spring that must hook onto it is 1.35 inch (34.3 mm). > This seems to allow for either of two solutions, neither one > particularly elegant. 1) use brute force to deform the hook in the > spring, 2) cut off some of the end of the hook. > > Comments and suggestions from those who have perhaps already dealt with > this, or anyone else for that matter, would be greatly appreciated. > > Best regards, > > Rob Housman > > Irvine, California > > Europa XS > > Rotax 914 > > S/N A070 > > Airframe complete > > Avionics soon > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:15 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs Although it is usually not a good idea, because a drawing may not be to scale, I =93verified=94 the diameter of the Landing Gear Frame as 39.4 mm by doing just that from Fig. 6 of the Mod. This suggests that the spring is not quite right. Using the same scale, the opening at the hook (on Fig. 6) is 38.1 mm, almost 4 mm greater than the actual spring I have, but still less than the diameter of the LGF. I=92ll allow for errors I may have made in scaling from Fig. 6 but is now looks like the factory may not have allowed much clearance when the springs were designed. Soooo, shall I cut or bend? Anyone? Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Rotax 914 S/N A070 Airframe complete Avionics soon From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Max Cointe Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 2:15 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs Hi there, Bought the mod71 and installed it last July. Fitted perfectly to the gear frame, so either the springs are not the right ones or your frame is wrong=85 Cheers, Max Cointe Auxerre, France Kit #560 3-gear 912ULS / 385 hours De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Rob Housman Envoy=E9 : samedi 27 ao=FBt 2011 22:24 =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs I=92ve encountered another one of those =93minor=94 problems I have come to accept as normal with the factory=92s step child, the Tri-Gear. The diameter of the Landing Gear Frame is 1.55 inch (39.4 mm) and the opening in the spring that must hook onto it is 1.35 inch (34.3 mm). This seems to allow for either of two solutions, neither one particularly elegant. 1) use brute force to deform the hook in the spring, 2) cut off some of the end of the hook. Comments and suggestions from those who have perhaps already dealt with this, or anyone else for that matter, would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Rotax 914 S/N A070 Airframe complete Avionics soon ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:35 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs Just what I wanted to hear - something that works. Thank you very much. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Rotax 914 S/N A070 Airframe complete Avionics soon -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 71 - Nose gear leg bungee, replacement with springs Rob, I used a cutoff tool and trimmed the end of the spring. Works fine for 5+ years... Jeff - Baby Blue On 8/27/2011 3:24 PM, Rob Housman wrote: > I've encountered another one of those "minor" problems I have come to > accept as normal with the factory's step child, the Tri-Gear. > > The diameter of the Landing Gear Frame is 1.55 inch (39.4 mm) and the > opening in the spring that must hook onto it is 1.35 inch (34.3 mm). > This seems to allow for either of two solutions, neither one > particularly elegant. 1) use brute force to deform the hook in the > spring, 2) cut off some of the end of the hook. > > Comments and suggestions from those who have perhaps already dealt > with this, or anyone else for that matter, would be greatly appreciated. > > Best regards, > > Rob Housman > > Irvine, California > > Europa XS > > Rotax 914 > > S/N A070 > > Airframe complete > > Avionics soon > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:38 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question Tony=0AI hear that flying transport is a more civilsed way to earn a living . A friend =0Aof mine recently resigned from LH seat 747 and is planning to do just that. =0ADon't buy your prop until you are nearer needing it, same with =0Ainstrumentation/avionics. They are getting better steadily, if you buy now you =0Awill be owning second best by the time you fly (imho btw!) =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Tony Re nshaw =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sa turday, 27 August, 2011 15:57:38=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Quest ail.com>=0A=0AThanks Tim,=0AGetting locked out might have the up side in th at I might finish my Europa !!=0ATR=0A=0A=0AOn 27/08/2011, at 6:08 PM, Tim .co.nz>=0A> =0A> Tony,=0A> I am not an expert. However, I believe, if you opt for the 914 Rotax then a =0A>constant speed propeller would be appropri ate. Simply to utilize the extra power =0A>in the most efficient way allows you to get out of difficult situations.=0A> Airmaster propeller system is just a delight to use and such a reassurance in =0A>the countryside we fly over here.=0A> I know it comes from this side of the Tasman however you wil l be very pleased =0A>with the ingenuity and simplicity of the Airmaster. =0A> .=0A> =0A> Hope all is well with you. Now flying the big one from the left seat I hear. I =0A>spent 14 years from the right seat and enjoyed it v ery much.=0A> =0A> Good luck on the industrial side, don't get locked out! =0A> =0A> Cheers,=0A> =0A> Tim=0A> =0A> Tim Ward=0A> 12 Waiwetu Street=0A> Fendalton,=0A> Christchurch, 8052=0A> New Zealand.=0A> =0A> ward.t@xtra.co .nz=0A> =0A> Ph 64 3 3515166=0A> Mob 0210640221=0A> =0A> =0A> On 27/08/2011 , at 7:34 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote:=0A> =0A>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw =0A>> =0A>> Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In t ruth I =0A>>still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again . I'm =0A>>nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comm ent on whether a =0A>>fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I know the pitch of =0A>>the prop would need to be determined to suit the style of flying I prefer, and =0A>>lets say that is to go as fast as m y engine/airframe combination will allow, at =0A>>75% power. To that end I reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but =0A>>recent video of Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the =0A>>order of a couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other =0A>>lim itations are there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of a =0A >>builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don' t and =0A>>thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, =0A>>there might be some issues at altitude, although simplisti cal!=0Al!=0A> y !=0A>> I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so ma ybe it doesn't matter. I =0A>>think there is probably even issues of aerody namics that might be wrong with =0A>>that last statement, so I'm happy to r ead whatever someone can contribute. =0A>>=0A>> Thanks=0A>> Reg=0A>> Tony R enshaw=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A=0A ================= ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:14 PM PST US From: "Gavin and Anne Lee" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Filler Neck Had the same problem, you need to seal the connections between the metal and the rubber, best way to do this is with redux (or what ever they call it nowdays) mix some up and smear it inside the rubber connecting pieces and then reassemble and tighten the hose clamps, haven=99t had a problem since Gavin Lee ##355 ZK-EPA From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimpuglise@comcast.net Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011 9:15 a.m. Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Filler Neck I went out to calibrate my Princeton Capacitance meter today and the first step is to fill the tank. I Have the metal tube between the filler neck and the tank with a black rubber coupling on each end, between the metal and the glass filler neck, and the metal and the glass tank. I found that gas leaked a little on both ends of the metal tube. When I used a paper towel to clean the gas off, it had a big, black streak on it from the rubber coupling tube. More gas, more black. The tube looks like radiator hose, but I am sure it came with the kit. If avgas is causing it to break down, am I using the proper material on both ends? If not, what should be used? Jim Puglise A283 -- Close to flying ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question,,,,,,,,Thanks for the responses From: Tony Renshaw Thanks to all that replied regarding the negatives of a Fixed Pitch prop on a 914. It was more a revision of knowledge than a serious desire, but Bob Catto is a very impressive fellow and it got me thinking. As for better abilities in gliding and stopping re pitch settings and other good advice, I am now the wiser. Reg Tony Renshaw On 28/08/2011, at 7:12 AM, David Joyce wrote: > > Tony, One benefit of a VP prop that I don't believe has been mentioned but which reference to ground looping brings to mind is that in fine pitch the slowing down effect of the idling prop is very noticeably greater than in coarse pitch. If you are trying to glide somewhere and the prop pitch change system still works, fine pitch is a great asset whereas to stop in a short distance you definitely want it in fine. On T/Off fine pitch also takes you very quickl;y through the dodgy steering phase if you have a mono. Clearly a fixed pitch prop is going to miss out somewhat on both counts. So I guess you are less likely to lose control on the ground and end up ground looping if you have a VP/CS prop. > Incidentally have you looked at the list of flying planes on the Europa Club website where engines & props are listed for pretty much every flying Europa? > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:52 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Prop Question On Aug 27, 2011, at 3:33 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > I hear that flying transport is a more civilsed way to earn a living. Graham...translation needed for (some of) the Yanks...What indeed is "flying transport"? Would that be the art of "transporting"?...Is this related to "trainspotting"? Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.