Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:08 AM - Trailor (Martin Olliver)
2. 08:48 AM - Re: Can we borrow your tank? (Bud Yerly)
3. 12:01 PM - venting cooling system 912S (graeme bird)
4. 12:31 PM - Re: Can we borrow your tank? (Fred Klein)
5. 12:57 PM - Re: Can we borrow your tank? (Nic)
6. 01:04 PM - Re: Can we borrow your tank? (stephen vestuti)
7. 04:09 PM - Re: venting cooling system 912S (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
Message 1
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I am doing a refurbishment of a four wheel tilt bed Stock factory tri gear trailor.
I am about to fit the winch and because of weight at the hitch point propose to
mount the 12v winch on the cross member between the end of the ramps and the
forward wing sling mounting.
I do not have the aircraft to try for size at the moment. Can any one tell me the
rough height clearance between the fuselage bottom and the top of the cross
strut. The reason is that the aircraft sits on the trailer lower at the fin because
the nose wheel ramp is higher than the main gear ramps. This allows for
a lower overall height clearance by lowering the fin.
Can the aircraft be mounted on the trailer with spats still on? If the answer
is no could this be achieved by extending the ramp lengths to reduce the angle
the trailing edge of the spat meets the ramp?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353151#353151
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Can we borrow your tank? |
To all fuel tank concerns
Europa has 25 tanks on order, however, the mold was damaged / discarded
by the manufacturer. The new tank, made by Roger and John that I have
from 2009, holds a bit more fuel (I have 20 gallons useable in my
trigear filled to the brim) and has reinforcements in addition to the
normal support tabs. I am not privy to the new tank manufacturers mold
to see that it is exactly the same. Karen expects delivery in a couple
weeks, but it will have to undergo QC first. I am watching and waiting
for a tank also for a new customer.
For those attempting to build a fiberglass composite tank using the old
tank as a mold, I believe the molding in place to be more time consuming
than just pulling the old tank and replacing it with the new tank and
properly supporting it.
Fiberglass tanks, as pointed out by Graham, have problems with auto
fuel.
No fiberglass tank (epoxy, vinylester, or polyester) holds up with Auto
Fuel with Ethanol. The marine industry coats the inside of fiberglass
tanks with specialized coatings to protect the fiberglass from auto fuel
additives and ethanol. It appears AV Gas is safe with all fiberglass
tanks. However, the AV Gas formula is under review by the FAA for
changes, so no guarantees.
Repairs to the current tank is difficult. Epoxy and glass stick very
well to the PTFE tank material. Jeff Roberts has successfully repaired
his tank, but it depends where your crack is. I have repaired the top
of the tank with glass and pro seal. Note, that proseal softens with
time when exposed to ethanol, but has not failed so far. The problem
with glass repairs to the tank, in my opinion, is that the bond has less
peel strength than ideal and under flexing and pressure will eventually
fail.
I believe, and have put my money where my mouth is, that the solution to
the tank cracking is the support structure used for the tank.
For those of you who haven't seen my previous posts, I have attached one
of my drawings to show what I mean. The front of the tank is totally
unsupported from the area above the spars (the ledge) to the bottom rear
of the tank. Tank flexing of the older and thinner tank will force the
tank to eventually crack at the areas that are glassed hard and not
allowed to move. Whether the tank gets brittle with age, from the
fiberglass interface, gets brittle with being left empty during long
repairs, or what, I really don't care, as all poly tanks will flex, and
going from empty to full will cause a flex of a tank and eventually, if
forced back and forth, will fail.
Metal cracks also unless properly supported, has condensation problems ,
and it is expensive for odd shaped tanks to build, fiberglass has its
fuel compatibility problems, molding issues, etc., and PTFE or poly
tanks have their long term problems unless properly supported.
What has my company done?
Defined how to support the tank. We do not glass the tank directly to
the cockpit module structure per the instruction manual. We put release
plastic between the required build manual supports and tank to prevent
the required supports from sticking permanently and creating a stress
riser. We use glass tabs to secure it at the top, for fore/aft and side
to side movement. Polyurethane foam is used to secure the tank from
shifting, and we carefully build lower tank supports. (On a new build
it means fitting the module a couple more times to fit an expand cell
pad laid along the bottom of the tank perimeter covered with 2 mil
plastic to define where the tank sits and requires support. The expand
cell is then sanded to final shape and glassed over making a very good
support.) The tank also sits on a cork support for padding (kind of
overkill) to prevent wear, but plastic works OK also. This means the
tank is supported vertically and horizontally by the saddle, the bottom,
the front ledge, and foam wedged with urethane foam to prevent movement
fore, aft , up , or down. All weight is carried by a combination of the
floor and the bulkheads.
Existing tanks have added non expanding polyurethane foam sprayed under
the tank to support the bottom, but this is not ideal as I prefer a
longeron and ribs be glassed to the floor for the tunnel area and across
the front of the tank for vertical support. This adds support for the
tank bottom, back and sides as opposed to the previous supports which
hung the tank solely off the bulkheads...
Other bandaids:
We have a plastic welder and have tried it recently on PTFE tanks used
in commercial lawn equipment (which are poorly supported fuel tanks and
prone to cracking with age) and have had success so far. Not an exact
science but we have also done an auto radiator, and a auto overflow
coolant tank to see what the long term effects are. We are concerned
that the heat stress near the weld may be brittle and fail, so time will
tell. Pulling the tank and welding is not cost effective as one may as
well drop in another tank.
In the mean time, I am waiting for a new tank to drop in as that is the
easiest of all solutions, as the tank supports can be put in quite
easily through the hole in the top of the module. This I believe will
solve the problems of stress risers and tank failures. Anyone can
replace a tank in less than a week.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Nic<mailto:scouttwo@sbcglobal.net>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Can we borrow your tank?
<scouttwo@sbcglobal.net<mailto:scouttwo@sbcglobal.net>>
Fred,
I have read the stories of failing fuel tanks while landing in trees.
While a challenging feat to be sure, the tank shouid still not fail.
Aluminum would suffice but I already have one sized to fit.
I always figured the inner layer bonds with the outer layer throught
the
holes.
This should encase the plastic which now would merely provide the
shape.
I think I would also make a removeable lid panel to mount all tank
access
through.
I have several motorcycle fuel pumps for 50 psi output for my CBR
engine.
Nic :)
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 3
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| Subject: | venting cooling system 912S |
I seem to recall seeing somewhere how to vent the cooling system to remove potential
air bubbles but cant find it. I have been doing some engine runs while waiting
for permission to test fly and it seems to be getting pretty warm - water
to 120 C after around 20 mins at 2200 rpm and I wondered if there is air in
the system or if that is normal.
Am I right in thinking you slip up the port side radiator connection rubber and
drill a small hole on the rad flange?
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP
Build nearing completion
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353176#353176
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Can we borrow your tank? |
On Sep 25, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Bud Yerly wrote:
> To all fuel tank concerns...
Bud...
Thank you for your comprehensive review of fuel tank concerns, your
clear description of "band aids", and assurances that tank-replacement
is a viable long-term solution...I believe that, once again, you've
demonstrated real leadership for the Europa community and disseminated
critically important information to all.
I confess to have had reservations about what's said in the manual
about glassing-in the tank and fears of creating stress concentrations
which could lead to failures...but...I merely proved the point that
the only stupid questions are those which are not asked.
With appreciation,
Fred
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Can we borrow your tank? |
Bud,
Good show.
The reinforcing around the tank looks proper and I am certain it will
protect the tank.
I just discovered a British company that offers "Phenol Novolac Epoxy Gas
Tank Sealer".
This might be the fix from the ethanol plight.
I am still several lifetimes away from installation so I will wait and see.
Nic :) a145xs
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Can we borrow your tank? |
Excellent report Bud and thanks for passing the information on,
Steve,
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353180#353180
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: venting cooling system 912S |
Graeme=0Ayes you are right, if memory serves it was referred to as "Nev's O
rifice"=0AIf the swirl pot is higher than the radiator you won't need it bu
t it's awkward =0Aon a Classic=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________
______________=0AFrom: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@m
atronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, 25 September, 2011 19:58:05=0ASubject: Europa-
graeme bird" <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>=0A=0AI seem to recall seeing somewhere ho
w to vent the cooling system to remove =0Apotential air bubbles but cant fi
nd it. I have been doing some engine runs while =0Awaiting for permission t
o test fly and it seems to be getting pretty warm - =0Awater to 120 C after
around 20 mins at 2200 rpm and I wondered if there is air =0Ain the system
or if that is normal.=0A=0AAm I right in thinking you slip up the port sid
e radiator connection rubber and =0Adrill a small hole on the rad flange?
=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp dr
ive FP=0ABuild nearing completion=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here
:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353176#353176=0A=0A=0A
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