---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/28/11: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:41 AM - Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 (Carl Meek) 2. 12:49 AM - Re: door warp (Max Cointe) 3. 03:55 AM - Re: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 (ANTHONY HIGGINS) 4. 04:10 AM - Re: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 5. 04:56 AM - Re: door warp (Remi Guerner) 6. 04:57 AM - Re: Re: Motor glider Wings (Christoph Both) 7. 05:52 AM - Re: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 (Carl Meek) 8. 07:25 AM - Re: door warp (William McClellan) 9. 12:55 PM - Re: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 (Bob Harrison) 10. 01:31 PM - Re: Best device to ratify the Actual Fuel Flow on a 914 (Snowflake) 11. 01:40 PM - Re: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 (Nigel Graham) 12. 03:02 PM - Re: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 (Carl Meek) 13. 03:11 PM - Re: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 (Nic) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:45 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 From: Carl Meek Hi, This is my first post, I hope it works! I'm posting this to the Europa list rather than the Jabiru engine list because the Jab 3300 getting too hot seems to be a specific Europa problem, even listed on the LAA's approval document as an issue! Anyway, I have been looking at the ROTEC LCH (Liquid Cooled Heads) and I think this is a really interesting idea, bringing a key feature across from the Rotax engines. They claim that in an hour of ground running at WOT the heads only hit 200 degrees! Here's the link: http://www.rotecaerosport.com/product-info/lch/ I'm posting on here not to spark a "Jabiru vs Rotax" debate, we all know how that debate goes, I'm simply looking for people's thoughts on this idea. Technical and otherwise. My other particular line of enquiry is how likely this is to get Prototype Modification Approval with the LAA, how onerous this will be, how much down time the aircraft is likely to have as a result. Regards, -Carl. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:08 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe" Subject: RE: Europa-List: door warp Hi Skip, I think that the elevation of the corners of the doors comes from the original struts positioning. Just applying the mod and change the way the struts push on the doors when closed will solve for a large part. You can effectively accelerate the process by placing heavy weights, but this will be efficient on long term only if you apply the mod. Few hours of job during winter=92s bad MTO J Cheers, Max Cointe F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 400 hours De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Neville Eyre Envoy=E9 : jeudi 27 octobre 2011 22:53 =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Re: Europa-List: door warp Hi Skip, Weights [ shot or sand bag] on the door corners will in time recover the doors to original shape, I have also used a luggage strap around the fuselage with local wood [ 3'' long 1'' x 2''] intensifiers to do the same job. Taking the gas struts off will speed up the recovery, but take care if you have the plastic ball joint sockets as they can only be sprung off a few times before they come too loose. Leave the plane out in the sun, let it come back slowly, could take weeks ! Cheers, Nev. -----Original Message----- From: egp8111 Sent: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:55 Subject: Europa-List: door warp My mono wheel has been sitting up for an extended period in a warm climate and the top rear corners of the doors have warped up slightly from where the gas struts pushed on them. (orginal strut position). Anyone have any suggestions on how I might get the corners back down to the orginal shape ? thanks Skip Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356092#356092 arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:59 AM PST US From: ANTHONY HIGGINS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 Hi,=0A-=0ABest to check this with LAA. I have checked and it seems to be a dead end. Some thing to do with Jabiru not allowing the engine to be seen as a new type in the UK.=0A-=0ARegards Tony Higgins,=0AEuropa Mono G-CHA H Airmaster Prop=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Carl Meek =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, 28 Oc tober 2011, 8:38=0ASubject: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300=0A=0A=0AHi,=0A=0AThis is my first post, I hope it works! -I'm posting this to the Europa list rather than the Jabiru engine list because the Jab 3300 getting too hot seems to be a specific Europa problem, even l isted on the LAA's approval document as an issue!=0A=0AAnyway, I have been looking at the ROTEC LCH (Liquid Cooled Heads) and I think this is a really interesting idea, bringing a key feature across from the Rotax engines. -They claim that in an hour of ground running at WOT the heads only hit 2 00 degrees!=0A=0AHere's the link:=0Ahttp://www.rotecaerosport.com/product-i nfo/lch/=0A=0AI'm posting on here not to spark a "Jabiru vs Rotax" debate, we all know how that debate goes, I'm simply looking for people's thoughts on this idea. -Technical and otherwise.=0A=0AMy other particular line of enquiry is how likely this is to get Prototype Modification Approval with t he LAA, how onerous this will be, how much down time the aircraft is likely ==== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:41 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 That's a shame Tony,=0Aseems to me it's the sensible thing to do with a Jab . Or a Lycoming if it comes =0Ato that! {{;-<=0ASomeones cage needs to be rattled (imho)=0Aregards=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________________ __=0AFrom: ANTHONY HIGGINS =0ATo: "europa -list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Friday, 28 October , 2011 11:52:48=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for t he Jabiru 3300=0A=0A=0AHi,=0A =0ABest to check this with LAA. I have checke d and it seems to be a dead end. Some =0Athing to do with Jabiru not allowi ng the engine to be seen as a new type in the =0AUK.=0A =0ARegards Tony Hig gins,=0AEuropa Mono G-CHAH Airmaster Prop=0A=0AFrom: Carl Meek =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, 28 October 2011, 8 :38=0ASubject: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 =0A=0A=0AHi,=0A=0AThis is my first post, I hope it works! I'm posting this to the Europa list =0Arather than the Jabiru engine list because the Jab 3 300 getting too hot seems to =0Abe a specific Europa problem, even listed o n the LAA's approval document as an =0Aissue!=0A=0AAnyway, I have been look ing at the ROTEC LCH (Liquid Cooled Heads) and I think =0Athis is a really interesting idea, bringing a key feature across from the Rotax =0Aengines. They claim that in an hour of ground running at WOT the heads only hit =0A 200 degrees!=0A=0AHere's the link:=0Ahttp://www.rotecaerosport.com/product- info/lch/=0A=0AI'm posting on here not to spark a "Jabiru vs Rotax" debate, we all know how =0Athat debate goes, I'm simply looking for people's thoug hts on this idea. =0A Technical and otherwise.=0A=0AMy other particular lin e of enquiry is how likely this is to get Prototype =0AModification Approva l with the LAA, how onerous this will be, how much down time =0Athe aircraf t is likely to have as a result.=0A=0ARegards,=0A-Carl.=0A el=nofollow t arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List =0Aet=_blan k>http://forums.matronics.com llow =0Atarget=_blank>http://www.matronics. ======================= =0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: door warp From: "Remi Guerner" Hi Skip, I agree with Max: the key is to do the strut repositioning mod first. In my case the rear corners came back on their own to their original flush position a few months after I performed the mod. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356170#356170 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:03 AM PST US From: Christoph Both Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Motor glider Wings Hello, Having classic wings I was advised then to set the socket and classic forwa rd wing lift pin exactly 12 mm lower than the original manual specifies. I just managed to do so before drilling the holes! Cheers, Christoph Both #223 Classic (almost completed) Nova Scotia, Canada From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neville Eyre Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Motor glider Wings Hi, The XS lift pins are [ from memory ] 1/2'' lower than the Classic. Remove the pins with heat and Mole grips [ with a cloth wrap if you are goi ng to re use the pins].Mask the root rib with thick card and alloy foil, ge t the pin hot quick, and quench the root rib with a wet towel ASAP. Grind the Bid off the face of the alloy plate stack with a B&D Fingerfile, keep grinding on the alloy to get heat into the plate, ping it off with a c hisel. Keep going on the next two lots of Bid and plates. Feather and scuff sand the glass lay up on the root rib. Replace 3 new plates as per Manual.[XS] Drill / Tap for the pins as per Man ual. Fuselage; Cut away the vertical stiffener [ foam / glass ] inside the cockpit, behind the lift socket. Unbolt the lift socket from the fuselage, sweat off with heat. The ''neat'' way now is to grind through the glass lay ups on the inside t o expose the alloy plate imbedded in the fuselage, and with the fingerfile sander, get heat into the alloy and dig that out, then replace the alloy / glass........ easy way is to fill the three holes with flox, a 4 Bid patch over the original plate, another plate , 4 Bid over the top of the plate, r efer to Manual for the original instruction, usual deal regarding scuff san ding / flox etc.... Fitting the socket to the fuselage is as per Manual, but it is a lot easier as with the drag pins engaged, and the spar pins in, there is no incedence setting to do. Replace the foam core that was removed, repair the stiffener skin, overlapp ing at least 2'' onto the original. Sounds drastic, but not as bad as you might think. -----Original Message----- From: flyingphil2 Sent: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:09 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Motor glider Wings to:ptiller@lolacars.com>> That's an interesting question. Has the Europa motor glider ever been flow n by any gliding pundits and reviewed? I've not seen any. Also, I seem to remember John or Roger at Europa telling me that that the forward pin on the Classic wing would need moving (to the XS position????) in order to take the glider wing. I could be wrong but check that with the pe ople that know. I'm sure Roger said there was a procedure in progress for it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355932#355932 arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 From: Carl Meek I will give Andy Draper at the LAA a call, perhaps he already reads this list. It would be a shame if Jabiru were to block this from happening, I'm a big Jabiru engine fan=8A. In concept=8A but the poor thing has struggled with temperature issues throughout it's life. I'd love to climb to 5,000ft full power without it cooking! I have little doubt water cooled heads would improve reliability, reduce risk of valves dropping, and improve probabilit y of hitting TBO. If there is no way to put innovations like this forward, with all the prope r controls and checks, the UK would be missing out =AD and that's a shame. From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 That's a shame Tony, seems to me it's the sensible thing to do with a Jab. Or a Lycoming if it comes to that! {{;-< Someones cage needs to be rattled (imho) regards Graham From: ANTHONY HIGGINS Sent: Friday, 28 October, 2011 11:52:48 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 Hi, Best to check this with LAA. I have checked and it seems to be a dead end. Some thing to do with Jabiru not allowing the engine to be seen as a new type in the UK. Regards Tony Higgins, Europa Mono G-CHAH Airmaster Prop From: Carl Meek Sent: Friday, 28 October 2011, 8:38 Subject: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 Hi, This is my first post, I hope it works! I'm posting this to the Europa lis t rather than the Jabiru engine list because the Jab 3300 getting too hot seems to be a specific Europa problem, even listed on the LAA's approval document as an issue! Anyway, I have been looking at the ROTEC LCH (Liquid Cooled Heads) and I think this is a really interesting idea, bringing a key feature across from the Rotax engines. They claim that in an hour of ground running at WOT the heads only hit 200 degrees! Here's the link: http://www.rotecaerosport.com/product-info/lch/ I'm posting on here not to spark a "Jabiru vs Rotax" debate, we all know ho w that debate goes, I'm simply looking for people's thoughts on this idea. Technical and otherwise. My other particular line of enquiry is how likely this is to get Prototype Modification Approval with the LAA, how onerous this will be, how much down time the aircraft is likely to have as a result. Regards, -Carl. el=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://====================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:06 AM PST US From: William McClellan Subject: Europa-List: RE: door warp There is a mod I believe first conceived by Ted Gladstone and Justin Kennedy. Kingsley Hurst adapted it further and I took Kingsley's method and modified it for my installation. The bracket hinge system removes essentially all load the strut puts on the door and frame, whether the original or subsequent door strut mod is used. Attached is a picture of the Gladstone door hinge. Bill McClellan A164 XS ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:57 PM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 Jabiru over heating, heads distorting, ......................never heard such poppycock !! No one has ever had such happenings ! Please excuse my sarcasm! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa originally with 3300 Jab but now in the real world with a Rotax turbo 914! From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Meek Sent: 28 October 2011 13:49 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 I will give Andy Draper at the LAA a call, perhaps he already reads this list. It would be a shame if Jabiru were to block this from happening, I'm a big Jabiru engine fan.. In concept. but the poor thing has struggled with temperature issues throughout it's life. I'd love to climb to 5,000ft full power without it cooking! I have little doubt water cooled heads would improve reliability, reduce risk of valves dropping, and improve probability of hitting TBO. If there is no way to put innovations like this forward, with all the proper controls and checks, the UK would be missing out - and that's a shame. From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 That's a shame Tony, seems to me it's the sensible thing to do with a Jab. Or a Lycoming if it comes to that! {{;-< Someones cage needs to be rattled (imho) regards Graham _____ From: ANTHONY HIGGINS Sent: Friday, 28 October, 2011 11:52:48 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 Hi, Best to check this with LAA. I have checked and it seems to be a dead end. Some thing to do with Jabiru not allowing the engine to be seen as a new type in the UK. Regards Tony Higgins, Europa Mono G-CHAH Airmaster Prop From: Carl Meek Sent: Friday, 28 October 2011, 8:38 Subject: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 Hi, This is my first post, I hope it works! I'm posting this to the Europa list rather than the Jabiru engine list because the Jab 3300 getting too hot seems to be a specific Europa problem, even listed on the LAA's approval document as an issue! Anyway, I have been looking at the ROTEC LCH (Liquid Cooled Heads) and I think this is a really interesting idea, bringing a key feature across from the Rotax engines. They claim that in an hour of ground running at WOT the heads only hit 200 degrees! Here's the link: http://www.rotecaerosport.com/product-info/lch/ I'm posting on here not to spark a "Jabiru vs Rotax" debate, we all know how that debate goes, I'm simply looking for people's thoughts on this idea. Technical and otherwise. My other particular line of enquiry is how likely this is to get Prototype Modification Approval with the LAA, how onerous this will be, how much down time the aircraft is likely to have as a result. Regards, -Carl. el=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://====================== //www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List com ronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:06 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Best device to ratify the Actual Fuel Flow on a 914 From: "Snowflake" sblack wrote: > I have the mgl ff1 and the ft60 red cube and there is a snag. The ft60 has a k factor of 68000 but the ff1 only allows k factors up to 60000! Have you dealt with this Ian? Resurrecting an old thread, I know, but I just found this after a Google search for info on using an FT-60 Red Cube with an FF-1. The MGL website has info on setting the right K-factor when using the FT-60: http://www.mglavionics.com/Red_Cube_Instructions.pdf > The EI manual lists the K-factor of the FT-60 at 68,000 pulses per Gallon. Since the MGL Avionics system uses a liters K-factor, this value has to be divided by 3.785 (Gallon/Liter ratio). > Use the following in the setup: > K-Factor: 18,000 > (Every FT-60 has the same K-factor) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356215#356215 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 From: Nigel Graham Looks like an elegant solution to well documented problem. The only potential problem I can see (and the LAA might object to) is that it uses an electic water pump and this makes it dependant on the electrical system. With a belt driven mechanical water pump (automotive practice) this could work. Nigel On Fri 28/10/11 08:38 , Carl Meek carlmeek@gmail.com sent: Hi, This is my first post, I hope it works! I'm posting this to the Europa list rather than the Jabiru engine list because the Jab 3300 getting too hot seems to be a specific Europa problem, even listed on the LAA's approval document as an issue! Anyway, I have been looking at the ROTEC LCH (Liquid Cooled Heads) and I think this is a really interesting idea, bringing a key feature across from the Rotax engines. They claim that in an hour of ground running at WOT the heads only hit 200 degrees! Here's the link: http://www.rotecaerosport.com/product-info/lch [1]/ I'm posting on here not to spark a "Jabiru vs Rotax" debate, we all know how that debate goes, I'm simply looking for people's thoughts on this idea. Technical and otherwise. My other particular line of enquiry is how likely this is to get Prototype Modification Approval with the LAA, how onerous this will be, how much down time the aircraft is likely to have as a result. Regards, -Carl. HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/NAVIGATOR?EUROPA-LIST [2] HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/CONTRIBUTION [4] Links: ------ [1] http://www.rotecaerosport.com/product-info/lch [2] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/NAVIGATOR?EUROPA-LIS T [3] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/HTTP://FORUMS.MATRONICS.COM/ [4] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/CONTRIBUTION ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 From: Carl Meek However they tested this and concluded it cooled without water pump no worse than the factory heads. Sounds good to me! Sent from my iPhone On 28 Oct 2011, at 21:37, Nigel Graham wrote: > Looks like an elegant solution to well documented problem. The only potent ial problem I can see (and the LAA might object to) is that it uses an elect ic water pump and this makes it dependant on the electrical system. With a b elt driven mechanical water pump (automotive practice) this could work. > > Nigel > > On Fri 28/10/11 08:38 , Carl Meek carlmeek@gmail.com sent: > > Hi, > > This is my first post, I hope it works! I'm posting this to the Europa li st rather than the Jabiru engine list because the Jab 3300 getting too hot s eems to be a specific Europa problem, even listed on the LAA's approval docu ment as an issue! > > Anyway, I have been looking at the ROTEC LCH (Liquid Cooled Heads) and I t hink this is a really interesting idea, bringing a key feature across from t he Rotax engines. They claim that in an hour of ground running at WOT the h eads only hit 200 degrees! > > Here's the link: > http://www.rotecaerosport.com/product-info/lch/ > > I'm posting on here not to spark a "Jabiru vs Rotax" debate, we all know h ow that debate goes, I'm simply looking for people's thoughts on this idea. Technical and otherwise. > > My other particular line of enquiry is how likely this is to get Prototype Modification Approval with the LAA, how onerous this will be, how much down time the aircraft is likely to have as a result. > > Regards, > -Carl. > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Eu= --> http://for======= > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:19 PM PST US From: "Nic" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotec Liquid Cooled Heads for the Jabiru 3300 Friends, Air/oil cooling is a function of air and oil ... cooling. Oil at 120F is not a crime. Pistons last and heads no warp. Nic :) a-145 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.