---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/21/11: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 09:25 AM - Make Sure You're Listed -- List of Contributors Published Dec 1! (Matt Dralle) 1. 07:27 AM - Control fork assembly friction against skin (Andrew Sarangan) 2. 08:03 AM - Rotax EASA AD (Frans Veldman) 3. 08:14 AM - Re: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) (Frans Veldman) 4. 08:20 AM - Re: Control fork assembly friction against skin (Jeff B) 5. 08:20 AM - Re: Nose Wheel! (robertpeterfrost) 6. 08:22 AM - Re: Rotax EASA AD (goff) 7. 08:37 AM - Re: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) (Peter Zutrauen) 8. 08:46 AM - Re: Rotax EASA AD (Peter Zutrauen) 9. 08:46 AM - Fw: question from Rough River (Jeffrey Roberts) 10. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Rotax EASA AD (Max Cointe) 11. 09:35 AM - Re: Re: Nose Wheel! (Brian Davies) 12. 10:06 AM - Re: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) (Neville Eyre) 13. 10:35 AM - Re: Nose Wheel! (robertpeterfrost) 14. 11:02 AM - carb bowl insulation (graeme bird) 15. 11:05 AM - Re: Control fork assembly friction against skin (Tim Ward) 16. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: Rotax EASA AD (Frans Veldman) 17. 12:38 PM - SV: carb bowl insulation (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 18. 12:57 PM - Re: Fw: question from Rough River (Robert Borger) 19. 12:58 PM - Re: Fw: question from Rough River (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 20. 02:52 PM - Re: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) (ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk) 21. 02:53 PM - Re: Flap up method for single handed rigging (ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk) 22. 03:39 PM - Re: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) (Peter Zutrauen) 23. 04:06 PM - Re: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) (Frans Veldman) 24. 04:38 PM - Re: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) (Nigel Graham) 25. 05:07 PM - Re: Flap up method for single handed rigging (AirEupora) 26. 09:05 PM - Stick control movement - how many degrees? (Andrew Sarangan) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:35 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Make Sure You're Listed -- List of Contributors Published Dec 1! Dear Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! On December 1st I post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. As a number of people have pointed out in their Contribution comments, the Lists are a whole lot more valuable than your typical magazine subscription! Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:12 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Europa-List: Control fork assembly friction against skin I just did some trial fitting of the control fork in the cockpit module. Although I took great pains to make sure the alignment was perfect, I overlooked something. I am talking about the fork assembly (CS02/Tufnol/CS03 sandwich) where it enters the tunnel through the hole in the thigh support. Since the manual insisted on cutting this hole as low as possible on the cockpit module's floor, I might have gone a hair too low. The edges of the CS02 fork is now pressing against the lower glassfiber flange. This friction is not serious, but even a small change in the setup can make it stiffen up significantly. My thought is to cut that part of the skin off, since I don't see it serving any special purpose. Photos are attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:38 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Rotax EASA AD Hi everyone, I came aware of a recent AD concerning the Rotax engines. Something about certain faulty crankshafts installed in 912's and 914's, serious enough to warrant an emergency AD for certified airplanes. Before I attempt to find out if my engine could have this faulty crankshaft, does anyone know if there is a list with engine serial numbers / years of built, that could possibly have this faulty crankshaft? It would be great if I would not have to dig out the crankshaft to find out whether it is ok or not, and don't have to worry about it at all. Maybe there is such a list but the art of managing paperwork is not my best developed area, so forgive me if I asked for the obvious. Frans ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:48 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) On 11/18/2011 08:04 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > Hi! Herewith a photo of the tie down location on the wing/flap hinge block > on G-PTAG . Ehm, the flap hinge is designed for holding the flap in position. Tying down the aircraft with it imposes the hinge to possible jerking loads, in a different angle than the hinge is supposed to receive during its intended use. I remember some notes about not using pencil marks on this apparently sensitive and critical part. Can anyone make an educated guess whether using this part as tie down point would not compromise the attachment or strength of the hinge? Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:58 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Control fork assembly friction against skin Andrew. Simply trim away the offending portion of the flange and continue on... Jeff - Baby Blue On 11/21/2011 9:22 AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > I just did some trial fitting of the control fork in the cockpit module. > Although I took great pains to make sure the alignment was perfect, I > overlooked something. I am talking about the fork assembly > (CS02/Tufnol/CS03 sandwich) where it enters the tunnel through the hole > in the thigh support. Since the manual insisted on cutting this hole as > low as possible on the cockpit module's floor, I might have gone a hair > too low. The edges of the CS02 fork is now pressing against the lower > glassfiber flange. This friction is not serious, but even a small change > in the setup can make it stiffen up significantly. My thought is to cut > that part of the skin off, since I don't see it serving any special > purpose. Photos are attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:59 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Nose Wheel! From: "robertpeterfrost" I am trying to source Nyogel 767A but it is not held in the UK by Newgate Simms they have to import it and it will be in 100ml tubs and will take 3 weeks to come. It costs about 31.00 for this small tub, but that isn't the main problem it's the 3 week wait which then clashes with me being overseas for nearly 3 weeks over the Christmas Holidays, so no flying until the New Year!! Has anyone a small amount of Nyogel 767A I can purchase to save me the wait? Regards Robert -------- Robert Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358633#358633 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:58 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rotax EASA AD From: "goff" Frans, The EASA notification is misleading in that it only refers to certified engines because EASA only deal with certified aircraft. If you go to the Rotax website you can download the Rotax Alert Service Bulletin (Mandatory) that lists ALL the offending ENGINE numbers. Apparently only about 200 crankshafts were dodgy and they are all more recent, being numbers which start with 6. Hope this helps. Goff ps I'm also going to try and attach a pdf of the bulletin. Never done this before so fingers crossed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358634#358634 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/d05094_507.pdf ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:01 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) That would be my concern, I'm planning on a dedicated hard point slightly outboard of the hinge. Cheers, Pete A239 On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 11/18/2011 08:04 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > >> Hi! Herewith a photo of the tie down location on the wing/flap hinge >> block >> on G-PTAG . >> > > Ehm, the flap hinge is designed for holding the flap in position. Tying > down the aircraft with it imposes the hinge to possible jerking loads, in a > different angle than the hinge is supposed to receive during its intended > use. I remember some notes about not using pencil marks on this apparently > sensitive and critical part. Can anyone make an educated guess whether > using this part as tie down point would not compromise the attachment or > strength of the hinge? > > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:03 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax EASA AD fwiw, http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?785-RotaxOwner.com-Alert-912-amp-914-Crankshaft-check-your-serial-number-Manditory On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I came aware of a recent AD concerning the Rotax engines. > Something about certain faulty crankshafts installed in 912's and 914's, > serious enough to warrant an emergency AD for certified airplanes. > > Before I attempt to find out if my engine could have this faulty > crankshaft, does anyone know if there is a list with engine serial numbers > / years of built, that could possibly have this faulty crankshaft? > > It would be great if I would not have to dig out the crankshaft to find > out whether it is ok or not, and don't have to worry about it at all. > > Maybe there is such a list but the art of managing paperwork is not my > best developed area, so forgive me if I asked for the obvious. > > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:49 AM PST US From: Jeffrey Roberts Subject: Europa-List: Fwd: question from Rough River To All, Below is a note that I received today from Rough River. I apologize not being able to make it last year as life got in the way. It seems maybe Labor day weekend may not be the best time for this event. A lot of Family commitments for all. I think this year we should consider maybe the week after or even two weeks after as we did a few years back. I seem to remember there was someone else that was considering planning the 2012 event. If so let me know or I would be happy to do it. Either way is fine but maybe we should go for a list earlier this year to see if the interest is still there. Looks like by there message below their prices have been lowered a bit. I for one will do my best to attend. My Kid is back in the states and most family emergencies have subsided... LOL! Regards, Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush Begin forwarded message: > From: "Clark, Donna F (Parks)" > Date: November 21, 2011 10:23:08 AM CST > To: > Subject: question from Rough River > > > Morning, > Just checking in to see if you would like to book for September 2012 > Lodging prices are lowerJ > Lodge Room $80.96 > Standard Cottage$107.96 > Thanks > Group Sales Coordinator > Rough River State Dam Park > 450 Lodge Road > Falls of Rough Ky,40119 > 270-257-2311 > 1-800-325-1713 > DonnaF.Clark@ky.gov > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:52 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Rotax EASA AD Hi Frans and Goff, Here it is... Not that recent as mine is 6.811.381 built in 2002... Cheers, Max Cointe F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 400 hours -----Message d'origine----- De-: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de goff Envoy=E9-: lundi 21 novembre 2011 17:17 =C0-: europa-list@matronics.com Objet-: Europa-List: Re: Rotax EASA AD Frans, The EASA notification is misleading in that it only refers to certified engines because EASA only deal with certified aircraft. If you go to the Rotax website you can download the Rotax Alert Service Bulletin (Mandatory) that lists ALL the offending ENGINE numbers. Apparently only about 200 crankshafts were dodgy and they are all more recent, being numbers which start with 6. Hope this helps. Goff ps I'm also going to try and attach a pdf of the bulletin. Never done this before so fingers crossed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358634#358634 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/d05094_507.pdf ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:11 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Nose Wheel! Nyogel 868H is available from Farnell in the UK. 100cc costs 18.79. I use a sample of it on my aircraft two weeks ago and it works just fine. I obtained a sample from Nyogel in the USA which was delivered within 7 days. Regards Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of robertpeterfrost Sent: 21 November 2011 16:16 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Nose Wheel! --> I am trying to source Nyogel 767A but it is not held in the UK by Newgate Simms they have to import it and it will be in 100ml tubs and will take 3 weeks to come. It costs about 31.00 for this small tub, but that isn't the main problem it's the 3 week wait which then clashes with me being overseas for nearly 3 weeks over the Christmas Holidays, so no flying until the New Year!! Has anyone a small amount of Nyogel 767A I can purchase to save me the wait? Regards Robert -------- Robert Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358633#358633 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) From: Neville Eyre No Problem ! This is the position of the Mono Wheel Outriggers, the attachment and struc ture in the wing was set up to take the loads from that. Only point I will make, Bob must have had an early Mono Kit with the Alloy latch block [ that he has drilled though for the eye bolt] Trigear Kits hav e a plastic [ spacer ] block, later Mono Kits had a three piece[ tufnel / h ardened steel / tufnel ] latch block assembly. You won't drill though it i f you have converted from a Mono and left the steel latch block in place ! I suggest Trigear owners do what I do, back up the plastic with an alloy pl ate to spread the load. I also put a tube guide down to near the fairing to help find the hole. Check you have three bolts through each bracket to the embedded plates in t he wing. Cheers, Nev. -----Original Message----- From: Frans Veldman Sent: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:14 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block ( trike only) On 11/18/2011 08:04 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: Hi! Herewith a photo of the tie down location on the wing/flap hinge bloc k on G-PTAG . Ehm, the flap hinge is designed for holding the flap in position. Tying own the aircraft with it imposes the hinge to possible jerking loads, n a different angle than the hinge is supposed to receive during its ntended use. I remember some notes about not using pencil marks on this pparently sensitive and critical part. Can anyone make an educated uess whether using this part as tie down point would not compromise the ttachment or strength of the hinge? Frans - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on -= the Contribution link below to find out more about -= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided -= by: -= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com -= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com -= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com - -= List Contribution Web Site: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution - -= Thank you for your generous support! - -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - -======================== -= - The Europa-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:54 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Nose Wheel! From: "robertpeterfrost" Thanks Brian, I will give them a call to see if they have any in stock. Regards Robert -------- Robert Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358725#358725 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:02 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: carb bowl insulation From: "graeme bird" I would like to put some heat insulation under my 912 carb bowls and was thinking of that sticky matting with foil on one side and stick to the bowls. but I am not sure if thats a good idea or not or which foil to use from ASpruce. I can only really see one fixing point - the engine bolt for a aluminium drip tray. Any better ideas? Not flown yet, should be the 10th Dec ish. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP Build nearing completion Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358729#358729 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:00 AM PST US From: Tim Ward Subject: Re: Europa-List: Control fork assembly friction against skin Andrew, Remember that the range of play needed in the Aileron is restricted by two limbs either side of stick. So any rubbing on the extremes is not an issue. Cheers, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand. ward.t@xtra.co.nz Ph 64 3 3515166 Mob 0210640221 On 22/11/2011, at 4:22 AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > I just did some trial fitting of the control fork in the cockpit module. Although I took great pains to make sure the alignment was perfect, I overlooked something. I am talking about the fork assembly (CS02/Tufnol/CS03 sandwich) where it enters the tunnel through the hole in the thigh support. Since the manual insisted on cutting this hole as low as possible on the cockpit module's floor, I might have gone a hair too low. The edges of the CS02 fork is now pressing against the lower glassfiber flange. This friction is not serious, but even a small change in the setup can make it stiffen up significantly. My thought is to cut that part of the skin off, since I don't see it serving any special purpose. Photos are attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:36 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Rotax EASA AD On 11/21/2011 06:07 PM, Max Cointe wrote: > Here it is... Not that recent as mine is 6.811.381 built in 2002... Whoops. My engine is uncomfortably close with 6772973, but still outside the range! Thanks for the document (and the others also thanks for the info)! Frans ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:37 PM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: carb bowl insulation Graeme, Attached are five photos of my carb heat shields (912 ULS), which I hope will say more than a thousand words. The shield is made of thin stainless steel plate. The support is one continous strip cut from a stainless steel plate, riveted to the shield. The zig-zag shape makes the support sufficiently stiff against vibrations. You will see that the aft, lower fixation of the shield support is the screw clamp that holds the exhaust temp thermocouple in place, while the forward, upper fixation is a standard stainless steel screw hose clamp. Both are tightened "just so" - no point tightening hard. If you do not have these thermocouples installed, use hose clamps. Good luck. Regards, Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:55 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwd: question from Rough River Jeff, We are sure interested in attending the next fly-in. Date doesn't matter much to us, but Labor Day weekend is tougher to plan. Soon as a date is decided, we'll reserve a room. Glad to hear your son is back safe and sound. Will make for a good Thanksgiving. Hope to see Y'all there. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Nov 21, 2011, at 10:44 AM, Jeffrey Roberts wrote: > To All, > Below is a note that I received today from Rough River. I apologize not being able to make it last year as life got in the way. It seems maybe Labor day weekend may not be the best time for this event. A lot of Family commitments for all. I think this year we should consider maybe the week after or even two weeks after as we did a few years back. I seem to remember there was someone else that was considering planning the 2012 event. If so let me know or I would be happy to do it. Either way is fine but maybe we should go for a list earlier this year to see if the interest is still there. Looks like by there message below their prices have been lowered a bit. I for one will do my best to attend. My Kid is back in the states and most family emergencies have subsided... LOL! > > Regards, > > Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "Clark, Donna F (Parks)" >> Date: November 21, 2011 10:23:08 AM CST >> To: >> Subject: question from Rough River >> >> >> Morning, >> Just checking in to see if you would like to book for September 2012 >> Lodging prices are lowerJ >> Lodge Room $80.96 >> Standard Cottage$107.96 >> Thanks >> Group Sales Coordinator >> Rough River State Dam Park >> 450 Lodge Road >> Falls of Rough Ky,40119 >> 270-257-2311 >> 1-800-325-1713 >> DonnaF.Clark@ky.gov >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:00 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwd: question from Rough River Jeff- Later would be better for all concerned I think. The more we can push it toward the end of September, or maybe even the first part of October, the better. Jim Puglise ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Roberts" Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:44:21 AM Subject: Europa-List: Fwd: question from Rough River To All, Below is a note that I received today from Rough River. I apologize not being able to make it last year as life got in the way. It seems maybe Labor day weekend may not be the best time for this event. A lot of Family commitments for all. I think this year we should consider maybe the week after or even two weeks after as we did a few years back. I seem to remember there was someone else that was considering planning the 2012 event. If so let me know or I would be happy to do it. Either way is fine but maybe we should go for a list earlier this year to see if the interest is still there. Looks like by there message below their prices have been lowered a bit. I for one will do my best to attend. My Kid is back in the states and most family emergencies have subsided... LOL! Regards, Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush Begin forwarded message: From: "Clark, Donna F (Parks)" < DonnaF.Clark@ky.gov > Subject: question from Rough River Morning, Just checking in to see if you would like to book for September 2012 Lodging prices are lower J Lodge Room $80.96 Standard Cottage$107.96 Thanks Group Sales Coordinator Rough River State Dam Park 450 Lodge Road Falls of Rough Ky,40119 270-257-2311 1-800-325-1713 DonnaF.Clark@ky.gov ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:26 PM PST US From: "ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) Hi! Frans/Peter/all. I would draw your attention to a simple fact that when the flaps are extended at 82 knots a large proportion of the aircraft weight is carried on the flap hinges. The hinges at the outboard end of the flaps are integral with and cured in place as part of two ribs which extend over the full width of the wing which in turn also is cured and envelopes the wing spar thus spreading any loading over a massive part of the wing structure. These structural factors are I would venture to suggest likely stronger than any integral tie down that could be separately constructed into the wing anywhere else without such considerable weight increase when an existing potential facility is already available. With regards to receiving snatch blows through the aircraft "bucking about" this is entirely without foundation since on tying down through these points it is possible to load up and deflect the main gear legs to ensure the system is constantly in tension. In conclusion I can advise that G-PTAG has always been tied down in this manner and has withstood some severe gusting wind conditions without any damage ensuing what or where ever over it's 900 hours life time. However all this advice is provided without liability as to the engineering capability suggested. In other words why don't you all do as you prefer but with the benefit of Neville Eyre's information I suggest you establish your own aircraft's integrity with regards to the type of block in use. May I thank Neville Eyre for his kind intervention on this matter and I can confirm that the blocks on G-PTAG are aluminium alloy and were part of it's original Mono Wheel Kit since the aircraft was originally built as a convertible so embodying all things Trike and Mono together. Best regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list- server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 21 November 2011 16:11 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) nl> On 11/18/2011 08:04 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > Hi! Herewith a photo of the tie down location on the wing/flap hinge block > on G-PTAG . Ehm, the flap hinge is designed for holding the flap in position. Tying down the aircraft with it imposes the hinge to possible jerking loads, in a different angle than the hinge is supposed to receive during its intended use. I remember some notes about not using pencil marks on this apparently sensitive and critical part. Can anyone make an educated guess whether using this part as tie down point would not compromise the attachment or strength of the hinge? Frans ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:33 PM PST US From: "ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap up method for single handed rigging Hi! Tony. You have me completely baffled . My a/c is a trike and has the electric drive flaps. However it also has a slotted link in the outboard hinge mechanism on each wing which prevents the flap from falling past fully extended position. I can not for the life of me understand why you would need to leave this hard ware out. when it serves the purpose which you are trying to solve? Regards Bob H G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list- server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw Sent: 20 November 2011 20:05 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap up method for single handed rigging com> Thanks Fred,Bob Graham and co re flap rigging. I will have electric flaps and could therefore rig with the flaps at any position. At the moment they will fall right out of the close out and rotate such that the trailing edge of the flap can be against the wing, because I don't have the outrigger hardware to create an extended stop. I either need to come up with an extended stop for my flaps, or rig the wing with the flaps up. Has any of the electric flap Tri-gear guys managed this other ways, or have any suggestions? Reg Tony Renshaw ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:54 PM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) All very good valid points. Thanks for the post! My concern would be with any side-loads on the brackets, but that could likely be mitigated. Cheers, Pete A239 On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 5:48 PM, ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk < ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > > Hi! Frans/Peter/all. > I would draw your attention to a simple fact that when the flaps are > extended at 82 knots a large proportion of the aircraft weight is > carried on the flap hinges. The hinges at the outboard end of the > flaps are integral with and cured in place as part of two ribs which > extend over the full width of the wing which in turn also is cured and > envelopes the wing spar thus spreading any loading over a massive part > of the wing structure. > > These structural factors are I would venture to suggest likely > stronger than any integral tie down that could be separately > constructed into the wing anywhere else without such considerable > weight increase when an existing potential facility is already > available. > > With regards to receiving snatch blows through the aircraft "bucking > about" this is entirely without foundation since on tying down through > these points it is possible to load up and deflect the main gear legs > to ensure the system is constantly in tension. > > In conclusion I can advise that G-PTAG has always been tied down in > this manner and has withstood some severe gusting wind conditions > without any damage ensuing what or where ever over it's 900 hours life > time. However all this advice is provided without liability as to the > engineering capability suggested. In other words why don't you all do > as you prefer but with the benefit of Neville Eyre's information I > suggest you establish your own aircraft's integrity with regards to the > type of block in use. > > May I thank Neville Eyre for his kind intervention on this matter and I > can confirm that the blocks on G-PTAG are aluminium alloy and were part > of it's original Mono Wheel Kit since the aircraft was originally built > as a convertible so embodying all things Trike and Mono together. > > Best regards > > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman > > Sent: 21 November 2011 16:11 > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge > block (trike only) > > > nl> > > > On 11/18/2011 08:04 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > > > Hi! Herewith a photo of the tie down location on the wing/flap hinge > block > > > on G-PTAG . > > > Ehm, the flap hinge is designed for holding the flap in position. > Tying > > down the aircraft with it imposes the hinge to possible jerking > loads, > > in a different angle than the hinge is supposed to receive during its > > intended use. I remember some notes about not using pencil marks on > this > > apparently sensitive and critical part. Can anyone make an educated > > guess whether using this part as tie down point would not compromise > the > > attachment or strength of the hinge? > > > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:52 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) Hi Bob, > I would draw your attention to a simple fact that when the flaps are > extended at 82 knots a large proportion of the aircraft weight is > carried on the flap hinges. Yes, but this load is in the opposite direction and from quite a different nature, and most likely in an angled direction whereas the flap exerts a "straight" line of load. Many of us have a "no push" or "no step" mark on the flap, while it is very unlikely that someone weighs more than the lift potential of the flap. Apparently some people feel that not all loads are of a similar nature. I'm a bit cautious, I have to admit, I couldn't help wondering about this. I just prefer to limit the use of critical parts to their intended usage. > With regards to receiving snatch blows through the aircraft "bucking > about" this is entirely without foundation since on tying down through > these points it is possible to load up and deflect the main gear legs > to ensure the system is constantly in tension. We all know what happens with the doors when they are in constant tension by the support springs: they deform. I can imagine when you load up the structure of the aircraft while being parked in the sun that it may deform a bit over time. Maybe just a millimeter, but that said, while building the airplane I did the measurements down to a precision of better than 1 millimeter. So if I tie down the aircraft I make sure not to tie any load on the wing. Downside of course is that if the airplane rocks in the wind that it will jerk on the tie downs. But I don't use the flap hinges as tie down points. But who knows? Maybe your method is better. We are just guessing here, aren't we? > In conclusion I can advise that G-PTAG has always been tied down in > this manner and has withstood some severe gusting wind conditions > without any damage ensuing what or where ever over it's 900 hours life > time. It is impressive, but no guarantee by itself that it could never have any negative consequences. You are probably right but I had an uneasy feeling when I red about it. If it was about a bicycle I would have ignored it, but we are talking airplanes here and I feel that if any of us has an uneasy feeling about something that he should bring it up. > May I thank Neville Eyre for his kind intervention on this matter and I I hope I didn't irritate you, I was just wondering whether using a critical aircraft part outside the scope of its intended usage would be safe by definition. I have to admit that I would never have thought that just a pencil mark would compromise the strength of that part either. I think it is a good thing if we discuss the safety of some ideas before they become common practice. I would really hate to read someday that one of us lost his flap during flight and that a hinge with an eyebolt was discovered some distance away from the wreckage... Especially if I remember having questioned it silently and never brought up the subject. I guess we won't be able to obtain a definite verdict on this matter, everyone should make his own decision. It is probably ok to use the flap hinge for this but you can't know for sure I think. Frans ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eye bolt tie down through wing/flap hinge block (trike only) From: Nigel Graham Frans, Don't forget that this mounting point was originally designed and stressed to mount the outrigger on the original mono-wheel. Consider if you will, the compressive shock loads imposed by an unforgiving landing on rough grass, or the lateral loads imposed during turning. I cannot recall a single incidence of this part of the wing/flap/outrigger mounting ever failing (and there have been numerous mono groung handling "incidents"). Your arguments are however, all valid. Nigel Hi Bob, I would draw your attention to a simple fact that when the flaps are extended at 82 knots a large proportion of the aircraft weight is carried on the flap hinges. Yes, but this load is in the opposite direction and from quite a different nature, and most likely in an angled direction whereas the flap exerts a "straight" line of load. Many of us have a "no push" or "no step" mark on the flap, while it is very unlikely that someone weighs more than the lift potential of the flap. Apparently some people feel that not all loads are of a similar nature. I'm a bit cautious, I have to admit, I couldn't help wondering about this. I just prefer to limit the use of critical parts to their intended usage. With regards to receiving snatch blows through the aircraft "bucking about" this is entirely without foundation since on tying down through these points it is possible to load up and deflect the main gear legs to ensure the system is constantly in tension. We all know what happens with the doors when they are in constant tension by the support springs: they deform. I can imagine when you load up the structure of the aircraft while being parked in the sun that it may deform a bit over time. Maybe just a millimeter, but that said, while building the airplane I did the measurements down to a precision of better than 1 millimeter. So if I tie down the aircraft I make sure not to tie any load on the wing. Downside of course is that if the airplane rocks in the wind that it will jerk on the tie downs. But I don't use the flap hinges as tie down points. But who knows? Maybe your method is better. We are just guessing here, aren't we? In conclusion I can advise that G-PTAG has always been tied down in this manner and has withstood some severe gusting wind conditions without any damage ensuing what or where ever over it's 900 hours life time. It is impressive, but no guarantee by itself that it could never have any negative consequences. You are probably right but I had an uneasy feeling when I red about it. If it was about a bicycle I would have ignored it, but we are talking airplanes here and I feel that if any of us has an uneasy feeling about something that he should bring it up. May I thank Neville Eyre for his kind intervention on this matter and I I hope I didn't irritate you, I was just wondering whether using a critical aircraft part outside the scope of its intended usage would be safe by definition. I have to admit that I would never have thought that just a pencil mark would compromise the strength of that part either. I think it is a good thing if we discuss the safety of some ideas before they become common practice. I would really hate to read someday that one of us lost his flap during flight and that a hinge with an eyebolt was discovered some distance away from the wreckage... Especially if I remember having questioned it silently and never brought up the subject. I guess we won't be able to obtain a definite verdict on this matter, everyone should make his own decision. It is probably ok to use the flap hinge for this but you can't know for sure I think. Frans =========== BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:55 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Flap up method for single handed rigging From: "AirEupora" I built a telescoping square brace tubing that attaches to the tie down bolt hole. I have an over center brace that I can take the wings off my dolly and place the spar into the hole in the fuselage. I then lift the wing and straighten it out from the wing tip then slide it into the fuselage. I only have one picture, take in the rain, but can sent the measurements and some pictures. The square tubing is welded to a square legs that have 360 degrees rolls installed. The telescoping inner tube is secured with a Vise Grip pliers on each wing. I have then marked with magic marker and once I have the wings in I telescope the tube to the correct height to install the pins. I have the flap in the down position and work the wing into the fuselage to just before engaging the flaps. I hope this makes sense. I have put the wings on using this method for the last year by myself. If you want the pictures e-mail off line aireupora@sbcglobal.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358772#358772 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0296_104.jpg ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:50 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Europa-List: Stick control movement - how many degrees? It seems the suggested 5-7mm gap between the CS08 crank and the cockpit floor may cause interference of the control stick. Some builders have suggested increasing this gap. I hate guessing how much gap to leave, so it would help if I knew how many degrees the stick is expected to swing for a full left or right deflection. Does anyone have this information, or willing to check for me? 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