---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/29/11: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:11 AM - Just Two Days Left - Still Way Behind... (Matt Dralle) 1. 07:13 AM - Re: Diameter of 912 oil hose and oil hose type (Christoph Both) 2. 10:40 AM - Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd (Jeffrey Roberts) 3. 11:00 AM - Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes (Andrew Sarangan) 4. 11:22 AM - Re: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd (Peter Jeffers) 5. 11:27 AM - Re: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes (Peter Jeffers) 6. 11:39 AM - Re: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd (Jeffrey Roberts) 7. 11:44 AM - Re: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd (Robert Borger) 8. 11:57 AM - Re: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes (Andrew Sarangan) 9. 12:25 PM - Re: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes (Peter Jeffers) 10. 12:30 PM - Re: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd (Peter Jeffers) 11. 12:53 PM - Re: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes (Kingsley Hurst) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:26 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Just Two Days Left - Still Way Behind... Dear Listers, There are just two more days left in this years List Fund Raiser. Over the last few weeks I have received some really nice comments from members on what the Lists have meant to them. I have included some of them below. Please read over the comments and ponder on your own feelings about the Lists and the support and camaraderie you have found here. We are still way behind last year in terms of the number of contributions. I really want to keep providing these services to the homebuilt community, but it take resources. Since there's no advertising budget or deep pockets to keep the operation a float, its solely your generosity during the Fund Raiser that keeps things going. Please make a Contribution today. If you've been putting off showing your support for the Lists, now is the time to do it! Make a contribution with a Credit Card or though PayPal at that Matronics Contribution web site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a check in the mail: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you in advance for your support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ==================== A Few List Member Comments ===================== I get a lot of useful information and satisfaction from belonging to your groups. Somehow you foster a great sense of community without the baggage that accompanies other lists. Dave S. We do appreciate you running the lists spam and advertising free. Jeff P. I am celebrating my first flight day and you and the lists deserve a thanks since without it my build would have taken twice as long. Chris L. I enjoy the list. Have my morning coffee with it! Buddy M. Your lists are the best investment of my time and money, bar none, when it comes to interfacing with my fellow amateur builders. Owen B. Keep it going!! Thanks for taking over. Wallace J. I enjoy the Pietenpol List a lot. Malcolm Z. Thanks for your great site! As a new CJ-6 owner, your web site is an invaluable resource. Ken B. Great informational source. Fred S. Thanks for doing this! Lance G. Thank you for the service i do enjoy the many hours I use on line with the banter/ serious technical items. Noel G. Thanks for the years of builder support. Roy H. Great forum! Roger C. Thank you VERY MUCH, Matt, for carrying on with this great service. The "Europa" community really appreciates it. All the best, Svein - now celebrating 10 years as a subscriber, I think! Svein J. Matt, I'm building a much nicer and safer airplane because of your efforts. Robert D. 21 years for you 9 years for me on the Zenith lists. Could not imagine building and flying without Matronics. Brian U. Thanks for ALL the hard work and time you put into maintaining these forums. As an EAA Tech counselor I recommend them often. Paul M. This Pietenpol list is a huge part of the motivation that keeps me working on my project. This has been a great place for meeting like minded folks and getting help for the difficult parts. Thomas S. Thanks for the excellent service Matt. Frank S. Matt, I'm a Sonex building, but I have to say that the Piet group is without a doubt the most interesting. Ken M. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the Piet List. This is one of my sanity lifelines! Daniel H. Your site has provided us over the years with excellent connections to others for advice. Good job! Bob M. Kolb List is my #1 source! Henry V. Matt, you do a great job with this site. I've been with it since the beginning! John M. I am very grateful for all of your excellent work on the List. Arthur L. Thank you for the service you provide us all! Nicholas C. ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:53 AM PST US From: Christoph Both Subject: RE: Europa-List: Diameter of 912 oil hose and oil hose type Hi Frans, Thanks for your thoughts. I ended up calling Rotax Canada - they had the right hose and the firesleeves, at quite a reasonable price. Lesson learned - ask Rotax first, then fan out. Thanks to all those taking the time to address my question. Christoph Europa TRI CLASSIC 912S, SR3000-2 blade prop, in final assembly after 16 years of slow building... -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 4:47 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Diameter of 912 oil hose and oil hose type On 11/28/2011 03:15 AM, Neville Eyre wrote: > What I was [ poorly] trying to say is fancy Teflon / Stainless lines are > not needed , and in fact difficult to hook up to the Rotax tank and > motor connections with the Aeroquip / Earls type fittings and too stiff > to run in the limited space easily.. [ and at 25 / $35 + an end !] The link a gave earlier in this thread points to a hose that is light weight, very flexible, and able to handle high temperatures. Rubber hoses age and need to be replaced at least every five years, are heavy, and not tolerant of very high temperatures. Normally you wouldn't need the additional protection of a "fancy" hose, but what if you have a crack in the exhaust and the resulting plume heats up the hose, or something breaks loose in the engine compartment (I once had a factory drip tray fall off during flight) and abbrases the oil hose? I have been flying with the standard rubber hoses and barb fittings, but when I took them off after one year I was glad I did so (one hose had softened considerably and had became a bit sticky) and I feel much more comfortable with my new "fancy" hoses. ;-) Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:00 AM PST US From: Jeffrey Roberts Subject: Europa-List: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd Hi All, Finally managed to get to Donna at Rough River lodge as she's been on vacation. She's the one that books the group blocks of rooms & cabins. When you call I would ask for her. I believe most everyone has agreed that the Labor Day weekend wasn't right and most wanted to go as close to October as possible. So here's the deal... The weekend of the 14th & 15th had sport aviation booked and not many rooms left. The weekend of the 28th & 29th had no avails due to a large wedding so that left us with either the 7&8th or the 21st & 22nd. So I went with the 21st & 22nd. I hope you all agree. I know some have shown an interest in the 1st week of October and the lodge has some opening's that weekend however going from memory I think weather can start being more of a factor then. The 28th & 29th is wide open as far as rooms go so unless I contact her we're good to go on that weekend. She has set aside a block of rooms and cabins to cover us based on years past but the sooner we each book the better we are. Last year was slow due to weather & commitments so lets turn this around and make 2012 the best yet. Hope this is good for you all. If we as a group feel we should change lets chime in here and I'll get er done. I will also contact the weather gods early and put our order in for a fabulous weekend and suggest you all do the same. Just let me know and I'll start the list. Best Regards, Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush.... Flying great once again. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:58 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Europa-List: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes I am about to embark on bonding the spar alignment bushes into the cockpit module (chapter 14). The manual says to set the wing spar parallel to the front of the seat back, and that this is good enough for now. That seems rather arbitrary to me, given that the tolerance required later is 2.5 +/- 0.05 degrees. I am confused how the angle of incidence can be adjusted in the future with the bushes already bonded in. Would it not be best if the bushes are bonded after setting the 2.5 deg incidence? But then I am uncertain how to infer the angle of incidence with the cockpit module sitting face down on the floor. Any thoughts from experienced builders would be appreciated! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:12 AM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd Hi Jeff, We can only thank you for your good works and attempt at controlling the weather gods. However please can you confirm which week end we are going for. You have left an ambiguity. Is it 21st & 22nd or 28th & 29th? Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Roberts Sent: 29 November 2011 18:35 Subject: Europa-List: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd Hi All, Finally managed to get to Donna at Rough River lodge as she's been on vacation. She's the one that books the group blocks of rooms & cabins. When you call I would ask for her. I believe most everyone has agreed that the Labor Day weekend wasn't right and most wanted to go as close to October as possible. So here's the deal... The weekend of the 14th & 15th had sport aviation booked and not many rooms left. The weekend of the 28th & 29th had no avails due to a large wedding so that left us with either the 7&8th or the 21st & 22nd. So I went with the 21st & 22nd. I hope you all agree. I know some have shown an interest in the 1st week of October and the lodge has some opening's that weekend however going from memory I think weather can start being more of a factor then. The 28th & 29th is wide open as far as rooms go so unless I contact her we're good to go on that weekend. She has set aside a block of rooms and cabins to cover us based on years past but the sooner we each book the better we are. Last year was slow due to weather & commitments so lets turn this around and make 2012 the best yet. Hope this is good for you all. If we as a group feel we should change lets chime in here and I'll get er done. I will also contact the weather gods early and put our order in for a fabulous weekend and suggest you all do the same. Just let me know and I'll start the list. Best Regards, Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush.... Flying great once again. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:27:38 AM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes Hi Andrew, The wing incidence is pre determined by the pre drilled bushes in both the wing spars and the fuselage. The angle of attack does need to be set by you. Parallel to the front of the seat back refers to both spars being parallel to the seat back when viewed from ABOVE. Hope this will give you a different view on the problem Pete Europa club LAA inspector -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan Sent: 29 November 2011 18:57 Subject: Europa-List: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes I am about to embark on bonding the spar alignment bushes into the cockpit module (chapter 14). The manual says to set the wing spar parallel to the front of the seat back, and that this is good enough for now. That seems rather arbitrary to me, given that the tolerance required later is 2.5 +/- 0.05 degrees. I am confused how the angle of incidence can be adjusted in the future with the bushes already bonded in. Would it not be best if the bushes are bonded after setting the 2.5 deg incidence? But then I am uncertain how to infer the angle of incidence with the cockpit module sitting face down on the floor. Any thoughts from experienced builders would be appreciated! ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd From: Jeffrey Roberts See thats what happens when I get in a hurry and more frequently as I get older. It's the 21st & the 22nd. Thanks for the correction Pete. Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush On Nov 29, 2011, at 1:18 PM, Peter Jeffers wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > We can only thank you for your good works and attempt at controlling the > weather gods. However please can you confirm which week end we are going > for. You have left an ambiguity. Is it 21st & 22nd or 28th & 29th? > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Roberts > Sent: 29 November 2011 18:35 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd > > > Hi All, > Finally managed to get to Donna at Rough River lodge as she's been on > vacation. She's the one that books the group blocks of rooms & cabins. When > you call I would ask for her. > I believe most everyone has agreed that the Labor Day weekend wasn't right > and most wanted to go as close to October as possible. So here's the deal... > The weekend of the 14th & 15th had sport aviation booked and not many rooms > left. The weekend of the 28th & 29th had no avails due to a large wedding so > that left us with either the 7&8th or the 21st & 22nd. So I went with the > 21st & 22nd. I hope you all agree. I know some have shown an interest in the > 1st week of October and the lodge has some opening's that weekend however > going from memory I think weather can start being more of a factor then. The > 28th & 29th is wide open as far as rooms go so unless I contact her we're > good to go on that weekend. She has set aside a block of rooms and cabins to > cover us based on years past but the sooner we each book the better we are. > Last year was slow due to weather & commitments so lets turn this around and > make 2012 the best yet. > Hope this is good for you all. If we as a group feel we should change lets > chime in here and I'll get er done. I will also contact the weather gods > early and put our order in for a fabulous weekend and suggest you all do the > same. Just let me know and I'll start the list. > > Best Regards, > > Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush.... Flying great once again. > > > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd From: Robert Borger Hi Jeff & All, >From your explanation of choice of dates being 7/8 or 21/22, I'm assuming that the 2nd reference to 28th & 29th is in error and you actually mean 21st & 22nd. Upon clarification, I will call Donna and reserve a room (as I hope to fly mine up this year). Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Nov 29, 2011, at 12:34 PM, Jeffrey Roberts wrote: > > Hi All, > Finally managed to get to Donna at Rough River lodge as she's been on vacation. She's the one that books the group blocks of rooms & cabins. When you call I would ask for her. > I believe most everyone has agreed that the Labor Day weekend wasn't right and most wanted to go as close to October as possible. So here's the deal... The weekend of the 14th & 15th had sport aviation booked and not many rooms left. The weekend of the 28th & 29th had no avails due to a large wedding so that left us with either the 7&8th or the 21st & 22nd. So I went with the 21st & 22nd. I hope you all agree. I know some have shown an interest in the 1st week of October and the lodge has some opening's that weekend however going from memory I think weather can start being more of a factor then. The 28th & 29th is wide open as far as rooms go so unless I contact her we're good to go on that weekend. She has set aside a block of rooms and cabins to cover us based on years past but the sooner we each book the better we are. Last year was slow due to weather & commitments so lets turn this around and make 2012 the best yet. > Hope this is good for you all. If we as a group feel we should change lets chime in here and I'll get er done. I will also contact the weather gods early and put our order in for a fabulous weekend and suggest you all do the same. Just let me know and I'll start the list. > > Best Regards, > > Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush.... Flying great once again. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:57:20 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes Hi Pete, Thanks for that response. It is good to know that the drilled holes are predetermined for the correct angle. My concern actually arose from reading others' posting that the the pins were difficult to engage, which I assumed came from small twists during the angle setting process. These are long bolts, so I suspect even a fraction of a degree rotation would cause the holes to become misaligned. If I could somehow verify using some reference points inside the cockpit module that the bushes I am about to bond are actually at the correct angle, that would be a great relief. On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Peter Jeffers wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > The wing incidence is pre determined by the pre drilled bushes in both the > wing spars and the fuselage. The angle of attack does need to be set by > you. Parallel to the front of the seat back refers to both spars being > parallel to the seat back when viewed from ABOVE. > > > Hope this will give you a different view on the problem > > > Pete Europa club LAA inspector > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan > Sent: 29 November 2011 18:57 > To: Europa List > Subject: Europa-List: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment > bushes > > > > > I am about to embark on bonding the spar alignment bushes into the > > cockpit module (chapter 14). The manual says to set the wing spar > > parallel to the front of the seat back, and that this is good enough > > for now. That seems rather arbitrary to me, given that the tolerance > > required later is 2.5 +/- 0.05 degrees. I am confused how the angle of > > incidence can be adjusted in the future with the bushes already bonded > > in. Would it not be best if the bushes are bonded after setting the > > 2.5 deg incidence? But then I am uncertain how to infer the angle of > > incidence with the cockpit module sitting face down on the floor. Any > > thoughts from experienced builders would be appreciated! > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:49 PM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes Hi Andrew, It is a long time ago that I did this bit so my memory is a little hazy but the pins are not actually a tight fit and the bushes themselves are quite short. I have worked with a number of builders through this phase and none have had a problem. To be quite honest none of them have really raised any questions, they followed the instructions in the manual and all worked OK. It is good that you have thought through and anticipated problems but in this instance it probably seems worse than it is. Pete Europa Club LAA inspector -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan Sent: 29 November 2011 19:55 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes Hi Pete, Thanks for that response. It is good to know that the drilled holes are predetermined for the correct angle. My concern actually arose from reading others' posting that the the pins were difficult to engage, which I assumed came from small twists during the angle setting process. These are long bolts, so I suspect even a fraction of a degree rotation would cause the holes to become misaligned. If I could somehow verify using some reference points inside the cockpit module that the bushes I am about to bond are actually at the correct angle, that would be a great relief. On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Peter Jeffers wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > The wing incidence is pre determined by the pre drilled bushes in both the > wing spars and the fuselage. The angle of attack does need to be set by > you. Parallel to the front of the seat back refers to both spars being > parallel to the seat back when viewed from ABOVE. > > > Hope this will give you a different view on the problem > > > Pete Europa club LAA inspector > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan > Sent: 29 November 2011 18:57 > To: Europa List > Subject: Europa-List: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment > bushes > > > > > I am about to embark on bonding the spar alignment bushes into the > > cockpit module (chapter 14). The manual says to set the wing spar > > parallel to the front of the seat back, and that this is good enough > > for now. That seems rather arbitrary to me, given that the tolerance > > required later is 2.5 +/- 0.05 degrees. I am confused how the angle of > > incidence can be adjusted in the future with the bushes already bonded > > in. Would it not be best if the bushes are bonded after setting the > > 2.5 deg incidence? But then I am uncertain how to infer the angle of > > incidence with the cockpit module sitting face down on the floor. Any > > thoughts from experienced builders would be appreciated! > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:36 PM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd Jeff, Thank you for the clarification. That weekend may just put it out of range for us coming from the UK. One of our daughters is getting married just days before that and we had hoped to come to Florida first so that we could drive up to RR from there to support N283JL. We will have to wait till nearer the time for a final decision. Pete & Sue -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Roberts Sent: 29 November 2011 19:35 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd See thats what happens when I get in a hurry and more frequently as I get older. It's the 21st & the 22nd. Thanks for the correction Pete. Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush On Nov 29, 2011, at 1:18 PM, Peter Jeffers wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > We can only thank you for your good works and attempt at controlling the > weather gods. However please can you confirm which week end we are going > for. You have left an ambiguity. Is it 21st & 22nd or 28th & 29th? > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Roberts > Sent: 29 November 2011 18:35 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Rough River Dates September 21st & 22nd > > > Hi All, > Finally managed to get to Donna at Rough River lodge as she's been on > vacation. She's the one that books the group blocks of rooms & cabins. When > you call I would ask for her. > I believe most everyone has agreed that the Labor Day weekend wasn't right > and most wanted to go as close to October as possible. So here's the deal... > The weekend of the 14th & 15th had sport aviation booked and not many rooms > left. The weekend of the 28th & 29th had no avails due to a large wedding so > that left us with either the 7&8th or the 21st & 22nd. So I went with the > 21st & 22nd. I hope you all agree. I know some have shown an interest in the > 1st week of October and the lodge has some opening's that weekend however > going from memory I think weather can start being more of a factor then. The > 28th & 29th is wide open as far as rooms go so unless I contact her we're > good to go on that weekend. She has set aside a block of rooms and cabins to > cover us based on years past but the sooner we each book the better we are. > Last year was slow due to weather & commitments so lets turn this around and > make 2012 the best yet. > Hope this is good for you all. If we as a group feel we should change lets > chime in here and I'll get er done. I will also contact the weather gods > early and put our order in for a fabulous weekend and suggest you all do the > same. Just let me know and I'll start the list. > > Best Regards, > > Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush.... Flying great once again. > > > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Setting angle of incidence for bonding spar alignment bushes From: Kingsley Hurst Andrew, I shared your dilemma when at the same stage. A couple of pertinent points that may assist ...... 1 When the cockpit module is installed, the seat back is reclined at 2.5 degrees to the horizontal axis of the aircraft hence the need to set up the spars parallel to the seat back.. 2 You will find that the bushes you have to fit are quite a sloppy fit on the main wing pins which allows for considerable tolerance. 3 I'm fairly sure the 2.5 +/- 0.05 degrees reference is in relation to each wing rather than the incidence setting overall. If you go ahead as per the manual taking as much care as you can, you can expect things to turn out like you hope. All the best Kingsley Sent from my iPhone On 30/11/2011, at 4:57 AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > I am about to embark on bonding the spar alignment bushes into the > cockpit module (chapter 14). The manual says to set the wing spar > parallel to the front of the seat back, and that this is good enough > for now. That seems rather arbitrary to me, given that the tolerance > required later is 2.5 +/- 0.05 degrees. I am confused how the angle of > incidence can be adjusted in the future with the bushes already bonded > in. Would it not be best if the bushes are bonded after setting the > 2.5 deg incidence? But then I am uncertain how to infer the angle of > incidence with the cockpit module sitting face down on the floor. Any > thoughts from experienced builders would be appreciated! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.