Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:30 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (William Daniell)
2. 05:27 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Peter Zutrauen)
3. 06:22 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Ivan Midwing)
4. 07:02 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Gary Leinberger)
5. 07:38 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (europapa)
6. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (William Daniell)
7. 08:11 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Max Cointe)
8. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Paul McAllister)
9. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
10. 09:23 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (europapa)
11. 09:59 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Bob Harrison)
12. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (mau11)
13. 11:18 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Fred Klein)
14. 11:45 AM - Re: Congratulations to Thomas Scherer (tennant)
15. 12:01 PM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Ivan Shaw)
16. 12:14 PM - Smart (Kevin Kedward)
17. 12:33 PM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Ivan Midwing)
18. 12:34 PM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Robert Borger)
19. 01:01 PM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Robert Borger)
20. 05:42 PM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Viking Aircraft engine |
Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without knowing
Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see quite
a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else. This
generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well
have got it right this time.
I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the
volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems
that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally
am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying.
There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM100.
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Stout
Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the Subaru
engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely
unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest
project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I wouldn't
trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education.
Garry Stout
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan <wilwood@earthlink.net>
wrote:
<wilwood@earthlink.net>
>
> Bud or anyone,
> This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda
aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know anything
about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1
reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully
developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator,
Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter,
Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your
airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very
good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop retro
fitable turbo-charge down the road.
> Thanks,
> Bill McClellan
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
fwiw, I've subscribed to his email group list and have been watching the
banter with interest. I too have heard not-to-good things about the fellow.
His on-line demeanor, and his answers to my in-person questions to him at
Osh two years ago suggest arrogance.
My issues with the design are 1- the prop turns the 'wrong' way. 2- he uses
a rubber coupler in an attempt to deal with harmonic resonances, and from
my EAA chapter colleagues experiences (with other redrives) and also my
research on this topic, this damper will not be able to dissipate the power
at the resonance peak (typically at lower rpms and power settings.... just
above idle) for any extended durations. When asked about this design he
didn't really answer it other than stating that the built-in fan 'blades'
in the starter ring gear were designed to cool it.
I think the Honda block has promise tho - it's the same engine that is
raced in the amateur leagues, and also the same one they use in their
outboard marine engines.
Time will tell I guess whether his installation is more sound than his
previous efforts with the Subarus
Cheers,
Pete
On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:27 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell@etb.net.co>wrote:
>
> Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without
> knowing
> Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see
> quite
> a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else. This
> generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well
> have got it right this time.
>
> I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the
> volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems
> that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally
> am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying.
>
> There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a
> Honda/CAM100.
>
> Will
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Stout
> Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
>
>
> This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the
> Subaru
> engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely
> unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest
> project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I
> wouldn't
> trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education.
>
> Garry Stout
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan <wilwood@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> <wilwood@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Bud or anyone,
> > This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda
> aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know
> anything
> about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1
> reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully
> developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator,
> Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter,
> Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your
> airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very
> good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop
> retro
> fitable turbo-charge down the road.
> > Thanks,
> > Bill McClellan
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
Folks,
I have been lurking on the forum now for awhile and would like to suggest to
look at the UL-Power engine instead!
As far as I now there is one in UK I think nearing completion for the Europa
and my personal choice as soon as I can order the kit...
I have no commercial interest in the company but to me that engine is probab
ly the best engine right now.
Blue Skies & Tailwinds!
Ivan
KajakCenter Halland
Org nr; 5805034625
P: +46 703 621310
P: +46 704 694444
M: midwing@telia.com
W: www.kajakcenter-halland.se
27 jan 2012 kl. 14:23 skrev Peter Zutrauen <peterz@zutrasoft.com>:
> fwiw, I've subscribed to his email group list and have been watching the b
anter with interest. I too have heard not-to-good things about the fellow. H
is on-line demeanor, and his answers to my in-person questions to him at Osh
two years ago suggest arrogance.
>
> My issues with the design are 1- the prop turns the 'wrong' way. 2- he use
s a rubber coupler in an attempt to deal with harmonic resonances, and from m
y EAA chapter colleagues experiences (with other redrives) and also my resea
rch on this topic, this damper will not be able to dissipate the power at th
e resonance peak (typically at lower rpms and power settings.... just above i
dle) for any extended durations. When asked about this design he didn't real
ly answer it other than stating that the built-in fan 'blades' in the starte
r ring gear were designed to cool it.
>
> I think the Honda block has promise tho - it's the same engine that is rac
ed in the amateur leagues, and also the same one they use in their outboard m
arine engines.
>
> Time will tell I guess whether his installation is more sound than his pre
vious efforts with the Subarus
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:27 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell@etb.net.co> wro
te:
>
> Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without knowi
ng
> Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see qui
te
> a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else. Thi
s
> generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well
> have got it right this time.
>
> I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the
> volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems
> that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally
> am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying.
>
> There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM10
0.
>
> Will
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Stout
> Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
>
>
> This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the Suba
ru
> engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely
> unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest
> project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I wouldn
't
> trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education.
>
> Garry Stout
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan <wilwood@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> <wilwood@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Bud or anyone,
> > This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda
> aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know anythi
ng
> about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1
> reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully
> developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator,
> Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter,
> Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your
> airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very
> good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop ret
ro
> fitable turbo-charge down the road.
> > Thanks,
> > Bill McClellan
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Viking Aircraft engine |
I looked at using auto engines in my Europa - the applications (car versus
airplane) are just so different. While the base cost of these converted en
gines seems attractive, the problems soon run the cost (and the aggravation
) far above the cost of a Rotax - just started my 912S and am impressed wi
th it. Like all German/Austria equipment, if maintained by the book, they s
eem to run forever. After nine years of building the last thing I want is t
o experiment with an engine generally backed by an undercapitalized entrepr
eneur.
If you are just starting your build, my advice is to wait to buy. One never
knows how long it will take to build and any savings in buying the engine
earlier (prices do go up with inflation) are eaten up in maintenance on dr
ied-out o-rings and required updates that are standard for new engines. I l
ooked at the 912S when I started the build in 2003 and it was $15K or so li
st, and in 2010 bought my engine for $23K (with all the bits and shipping).
This is about a 6% increase a year. But the engine is far superior to the
2003 engines (the U.S. Army required a bunch of very good changes) and Rota
x improved the engine in other ways. Several other people that bought early
(and cheaper) are paying more in the long run for an inferior early engine
.
Gary Leinberger
A237
Hope to fly this spring.
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
fwiw, I've subscribed to his email group list and have been watching the ba
nter with interest. I too have heard not-to-good things about the fellow. H
is on-line demeanor, and his answers to my in-person questions to him at Os
h two years ago suggest arrogance.
My issues with the design are 1- the prop turns the 'wrong' way. 2- he uses
a rubber coupler in an attempt to deal with harmonic resonances, and from
my EAA chapter colleagues experiences (with other redrives) and also my res
earch on this topic, this damper will not be able to dissipate the power at
the resonance peak (typically at lower rpms and power settings.... just ab
ove idle) for any extended durations. When asked about this design he didn'
t really answer it other than stating that the built-in fan 'blades' in the
starter ring gear were designed to cool it.
I think the Honda block has promise tho - it's the same engine that is race
d in the amateur leagues, and also the same one they use in their outboard
marine engines.
Time will tell I guess whether his installation is more sound than his prev
ious efforts with the Subarus
Cheers,
Pete
On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:27 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell@etb.net.co<mailt
o:wdaniell@etb.net.co>> wrote:
ailto:wdaniell@etb.net.co>>
Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without knowin
g
Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see quit
e
a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else. This
generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well
have got it right this time.
I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the
volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems
that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally
am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying.
There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM100
.
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europa-list-serve
r@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europa-list-ser
ver@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Garry Stout
Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
to:garrys@tampabay.rr.com>>
This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the Subar
u
engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely
unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest
project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I wouldn'
t
trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education.
Garry Stout
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan <wilwood@earthlink.net<mailt
o:wilwood@earthlink.net>>
wrote:
<wilwood@earthlink.net<mailto:wilwood@earthlink.net>>
>
> Bud or anyone,
> This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda
aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know anythin
g
about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1
reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully
developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator,
Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter,
Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your
airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very
good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop retr
o
fitable turbo-charge down the road.
> Thanks,
> Bill McClellan
>
>
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
There are some alternatives to the Rotax like this German one:
http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_M800a_1.htm
but I too would not dare to try it out.
Juergen
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364946#364946
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
Interesting site - they have a big bore kit for the 912 taking it to
110hp....add a turbo....130-140hp.....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of europapa
Sent: 27 January, 2012 10:35
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine
There are some alternatives to the Rotax like this German one:
http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_M800a_1.htm
but I too would not dare to try it out.
Juergen
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364946#364946
Message 7
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| Subject: | Viking Aircraft engine |
Hi there all,
The club in which I was (and still am) flying owns an Ecoflyer 135CDI
from
Robin. The engine is the A Class Mercedes engine modified by Thielert
(now
Centurion). Performances and easy to fly were there till we discovered
the
many troubles and lack of reliability attached to the transformation.
Then
the maintenance costs increased dramatically, and this was part of the
failed over of Thielert.
Socata (previously a subsidiary of EADS and now part of Daher) built
from
scratch an engine 230HP turbo charged. Even if the staff in charge was
previously the one which mad the Renault 10 cylinders
leader in Formula One , it took them 10 years to make it reliable, but
still
very expensive=85
My conclusion is: an engine made for a car is not made to be installed
in a
plane!
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Gary
Leinberger
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 27 janvier 2012 15:58
=C0 : 'europa-list@matronics.com'
Objet : RE: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
I looked at using auto engines in my Europa ' the applications (car
versus
airplane) are just so different. While the base cost of these converted
engines seems attractive, the problems soon run the cost (and the
aggravation) far above the cost of a Rotax - just started my 912S and
am
impressed with it. Like all German/Austria equipment, if maintained by
the
book, they seem to run forever. After nine years of building the last
thing
I want is to experiment with an engine generally backed by an
undercapitalized entrepreneur.
If you are just starting your build, my advice is to wait to buy. One
never
knows how long it will take to build and any savings in buying the
engine
earlier (prices do go up with inflation) are eaten up in maintenance on
dried-out o-rings and required updates that are standard for new
engines. I
looked at the 912S when I started the build in 2003 and it was $15K or
so
list, and in 2010 bought my engine for $23K (with all the bits and
shipping). This is about a 6% increase a year. But the engine is far
superior to the 2003 engines (the U.S. Army required a bunch of very
good
changes) and Rotax improved the engine in other ways. Several other
people
that bought early (and cheaper) are paying more in the long run for an
inferior early engine.
Gary Leinberger
A237
Hope to fly this spring.
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Zutrauen
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
fwiw, I've subscribed to his email group list and have been watching the
banter with interest. I too have heard not-to-good things about the
fellow.
His on-line demeanor, and his answers to my in-person questions to him
at
Osh two years ago suggest arrogance.
My issues with the design are 1- the prop turns the 'wrong' way. 2- he
uses
a rubber coupler in an attempt to deal with harmonic resonances, and
from my
EAA chapter colleagues experiences (with other redrives) and also my
research on this topic, this damper will not be able to dissipate the
power
at the resonance peak (typically at lower rpms and power settings....
just
above idle) for any extended durations. When asked about this design he
didn't really answer it other than stating that the built-in fan
'blades' in
the starter ring gear were designed to cool it.
I think the Honda block has promise tho - it's the same engine that is
raced
in the amateur leagues, and also the same one they use in their outboard
marine engines.
Time will tell I guess whether his installation is more sound than his
previous efforts with the Subarus
Cheers,
Pete
On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:27 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
wrote:
<wdaniell@etb.net.co>
Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without
knowing
Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see
quite
a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else.
This
generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well
have got it right this time.
I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and
the
volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing
problems
that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am
personally
am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying.
There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a
Honda/CAM100.
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Stout
Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the
Subaru
engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely
unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest
project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I
wouldn't
trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education.
Garry Stout
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan <wilwood@earthlink.net>
wrote:
<wilwood@earthlink.net>
>
> Bud or anyone,
> This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda
aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know
anything
about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max,
2.33/1
reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully
developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A
Alternator,
Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter,
Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your
airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very
good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop
retro
fitable turbo-charge down the road.
> Thanks,
> Bill McClellan
>
>
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
Guys,
I'll toss my 2 cents worth into the ring on alternative engines. Fristly I
would like to preface my comments with the statement that if we didn't try
new things then we would be still flying with stuff powered from designs
that trace there roots back 50 years. Come to think of it, if we didn't
try new stuff then we wouldn't be even flying Europa's.
Installing alternative power plants is not for the faint of heart, even
proven designs. I recently completed some cooling modifications to my 914
and it was a lot of testing, work, re work and more testing. My
modifications are trivial compared to something like a Viking. Even
conventional conversions such as the Jabaru have taken a lot of collective
effort to get them to the point of being a viable alternative.
I don't want to discourage anyone from trying alternatives, but please be
aware that once you move away from the original design that you moving
down a path that will consume considerable resources.
Cheers, Paul
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
Hi Paul=0AI agree with everything you say, I would add that even now the Ja
b is still not a viable alternative (imho) I onlyknow of one successful Jab
6 owner and he isn't completely satisfied.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A______________
__________________=0A From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>=0A
ject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine=0A =0A=0AGuys, =0A=0AI'll
toss my 2 cents worth into the ring on alternative engines.- Fristly I w
ould like to preface my comments with the statement that if we didn't try n
ew things then we would be still flying with stuff powered from designs tha
t trace there roots back 50 years.- Come to think of it, if we didn't try
new stuff then we wouldn't be even flying Europa's.=0A=0AInstalling altern
ative power plants is not for the faint of heart, even proven designs. I re
cently completed some cooling modifications to my 914 and it was a lot of t
esting, work, re work and more testing.- My modifications are trivial com
pared to something like a Viking.- Even conventional conversions such as
the Jabaru have taken a lot of collective effort to get them to the point o
f being a viable alternative.=0A=0AI don't want to discourage anyone from t
rying alternatives, but please be aware that once you move away from- the
original design that you moving down a path that will consume considerable
=========================0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
I have been interested in new aircraft engines for a long time and I have learned
that there are more problems with the gearbox, the clutch or both than with
the engine itself.
Thats why I wouldn't trust the the three cogs they call gearbox on the silent hektik
engine.
http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_M800a_1.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364959#364959
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
Hi! Graham /all
Right on the money ! ...and I certainly know a good amount of the hassle
associated with the subject!
Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: 27 January 2012 16:44
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine
Hi Paul
I agree with everything you say, I would add that even now the Jab is still
not a viable alternative (imho) I onlyknow of one successful Jab 6 owner and
he isn't completely satisfied.
Graham
_____
From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 27 January 2012, 16:17
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine
Guys,
I'll toss my 2 cents worth into the ring on alternative engines. Fristly I
would like to preface my comments with the statement that if we didn't try
new things then we would be still flying with stuff powered from designs
that trace there roots back 50 years. Come to think of it, if we didn't try
new stuff then we wouldn't be even flying Europa's.
Installing alternative power plants is not for the faint of heart, even
proven designs. I recently completed some cooling modifications to my 914
and it was a lot of testing, work, re work and more testing. My
modifications are trivial compared to something like a Viking. Even
conventional conversions such as the Jabaru have taken a lot of collective
effort to get them to the point of being a viable alternative.
I don't want to discourage anyone from trying alternatives, but please be
aware that once you move away from the original design that you moving down
a path that will consume considerable resources.
Cheers, Paul
http://www.matro===================
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 26 [cn]
An aircraft engine is a "good engine" when he have made ten years of flight life
minimum! To resolve all problems.
Michel AUVRAY
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:27 AM, William Daniell wrote:
> I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant
> and the
> volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing
> problems
> that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am
> personally
> am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying.
>
> There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/
> CAM100.
Will...that would be Alex Bowman who flies out of Nanaimo, BC...he has
the CAM125 which is built around (I believe) a mid-80s Honda Civic
engine...and he's been quite satisfied w/ performance, ops, and
maintenance. He flew it to the EAA show at Arlington, WA back in 2004
or 5, and I've seen it at a fly-in at Pemberton, BC alongside Peter
Timm's Classic. Alex is now in his late 80s and has had some medical
issues which, I believe, have been the sole reason for why he has not
been burning holes in the sky w/ his Europa...it remains a low-time
aircraft, but I much admire what he has achieved. Incidentally, he
built his plane where he lives on a small island "off the grid", and
true to form, the manufacturers of the CAM engines have evaporated.
Though the success rate for auto engine conversions for aircraft use
may be low, Alex's CAM125 installation along w/ his Airmaster CS prop
has been one of the success stories...of course, it would be more
convincing to be able to point to say 10 Europas thus powered, each w/
a thousand hours and still going strong. Some listers may recall that
w/ the demise of the original Europa company, I attempted to assemble
a group of FWF'less builders to utilize Alex's production cowl molds
and experience w/ mating the CAM125 to the Europa, but alas, that
never happened.
Of course, auto engine conversions are a subset of the question of
whether or not one may choose to deviate from orthodoxy...anyone so
interested can do some web searches and find any number of scholarly
papers and descriptive narratives on the pros and cons of doing so.
For myself...as I continue my XS mono powered w/ a derivative of a
Subaru (the RAM Performance 140 hp, MPEFIed engine w/ an Autoflight
helical-geared PSRU)...I spent about 15 months molding the cowls,
designing and fabricating the mounting frame, ditto for cooling and
tuned exhaust systems, plus temp & pressure sensors...176# "wet" but
excluding cooling & exhaust systems.
I find that a high tolerance for ambiguity has been essential...
I will post test/performance data when available.
I trust that there's a place in the Europa community for the
occasional deviant,
Fred
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Congratulations to Thomas Scherer |
I must second the congratulations.
I must agree with Richard. Having also done some time in West Africa I can only
hope that the Europa will someday return to Europe.
I think that leaving an aircraft in Cameroon without an armed guard is braver than
flying the Atlantic!!
Wishing Thomas all the best on his posting there.
Barry Tennant
--------
Barry Tennant
D-EHBT
At EDLM - Germany
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364966#364966
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
Words of wisdom in deed
Ivan
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mau11
Sent: 27 January 2012 18:18
Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
An aircraft engine is a "good engine" when he have made ten years of flight
life minimum! To resolve all problems.
Michel AUVRAY
Message 16
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Hi Guys, What happened to the Smart car engine installation ?
Regards
Kevin
Sent from my iPhone
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
The "other" Ivan agrees!
Cheers!
Ivan Midwing
Sweden
KajakCenter Halland
Org nr; 5805034625
P: +46 703 621310
P: +46 704 694444
M: midwing@telia.com
W: www.kajakcenter-halland.se
27 jan 2012 kl. 20:58 skrev "Ivan Shaw" <ivanshaw@btinternet.com>:
> Words of wisdom in deed
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser
ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mau11
> Sent: 27 January 2012 18:18
> To: europa-list
> Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine
>
>
>
> An aircraft engine is a "good engine" when he have made ten years of fligh
t life minimum! To resolve all problems.
>
> Michel AUVRAY
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> < - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
Bill,
Think about all that has to be developed to put in a non-standard engine.
1. New cowling - probably has to be made from scratch. Have you ever made a female
mold?
2. New baffling - probably will require multiple tries and much effort to get the
cooling right.
3. New engine mount - you'll be lucky to get it right the first time.
4. New Plumbing - probably not too terrible once the above has been settled.
5. New Electrical - again, probably not too terrible once the above has been settled.
Depends a lot on the electrical requirements of the engine, F/I, ignition,
etc.
6. New Physical connections - throttle, mixture, carb heat, etc.
The Europa was designed for and around the Rotax 9xx engine. A complete FWF kit
is available for purchase and it all works (at least it did on mine).
Electrical and plumbing are all worked out, just do it like the instructions say.
Physical connections are all worked out for you (no mixture or carb heat to
fuss over). They are light, powerful, economical and reliable (if you follow
the instructions). No they are not perfect but they are pretty darn good.
Anything else and you become the chief engineer and developer on a serious experimental
project.
Ya pays your money and takes your chances. (And do check into Mr. Eggenfeller)
Good luck which ever way you go.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jan 26, 2012, at 12:18 PM, William McClellan wrote:
>
> Bud or anyone,
> This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda aircraft engine.
The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know anything about this
engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1 reduction drive,
fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully developed package for
aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator, Dual Engine controllers,
Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter, Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel
pumps and Engine mounting for your airplane. The engine is fully assembled.
$13,000 Looks like a very good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet
but likely to develop retro fitable turbo-charge down the road.
> Thanks,
> Bill McClellan
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
Fred,
There's plenty of room in the Europa (and total OBAM) community for you wild and
crazy guys. You are out there on the pointy end of this whole Experimental
thing. God bless you for all your efforts, failures and successes. I hope to
see you at RR this year.
BTW, nice looking cowl!
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:15 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:27 AM, William Daniell wrote:
>
>> I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the
>> volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems
>> that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally
>> am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying.
>>
>> There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM100.
>
> Will...that would be Alex Bowman who flies out of Nanaimo, BC...he has the CAM125
which is built around (I believe) a mid-80s Honda Civic engine...and he's
been quite satisfied w/ performance, ops, and maintenance. He flew it to the
EAA show at Arlington, WA back in 2004 or 5, and I've seen it at a fly-in at Pemberton,
BC alongside Peter Timm's Classic. Alex is now in his late 80s and has
had some medical issues which, I believe, have been the sole reason for why
he has not been burning holes in the sky w/ his Europa...it remains a low-time
aircraft, but I much admire what he has achieved. Incidentally, he built his
plane where he lives on a small island "off the grid", and true to form, the
manufacturers of the CAM engines have evaporated.
>
> Though the success rate for auto engine conversions for aircraft use may be low,
Alex's CAM125 installation along w/ his Airmaster CS prop has been one of
the success stories...of course, it would be more convincing to be able to point
to say 10 Europas thus powered, each w/ a thousand hours and still going strong.
Some listers may recall that w/ the demise of the original Europa company,
I attempted to assemble a group of FWF'less builders to utilize Alex's production
cowl molds and experience w/ mating the CAM125 to the Europa, but alas,
that never happened.
>
> Of course, auto engine conversions are a subset of the question of whether or
not one may choose to deviate from orthodoxy...anyone so interested can do some
web searches and find any number of scholarly papers and descriptive narratives
on the pros and cons of doing so.
>
> For myself...as I continue my XS mono powered w/ a derivative of a Subaru (the
RAM Performance 140 hp, MPEFIed engine w/ an Autoflight helical-geared PSRU)...I
spent about 15 months molding the cowls, designing and fabricating the mounting
frame, ditto for cooling and tuned exhaust systems, plus temp & pressure
sensors...176# "wet" but excluding cooling & exhaust systems.
>
> I find that a high tolerance for ambiguity has been essential...
>
> I will post test/performance data when available.
>
> I trust that there's a place in the Europa community for the occasional deviant,
>
> Fred
>
> <DSCN3071.jpg>
>
>
> <DSCN3688.jpg>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Viking Aircraft engine |
Super nice looking cowl. Put some paint on that thing and let's go fly!
Kevin
On Jan 27, 2012, at 12:58 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com> wrote:
>
> Fred,
>
> There's plenty of room in the Europa (and total OBAM) community for you wild
and crazy guys. You are out there on the pointy end of this whole Experimental
thing. God bless you for all your efforts, failures and successes. I hope
to see you at RR this year.
>
> BTW, nice looking cowl!
>
> Blue skies & tailwinds,
> Bob Borger
> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
> Cel: 817-992-1117
> rlborger@mac.com
>
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:15 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
>
>> On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:27 AM, William Daniell wrote:
>>
>>> I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the
>>> volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems
>>> that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally
>>> am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying.
>>>
>>> There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM100.
>>
>> Will...that would be Alex Bowman who flies out of Nanaimo, BC...he has the CAM125
which is built around (I believe) a mid-80s Honda Civic engine...and he's
been quite satisfied w/ performance, ops, and maintenance. He flew it to the
EAA show at Arlington, WA back in 2004 or 5, and I've seen it at a fly-in at
Pemberton, BC alongside Peter Timm's Classic. Alex is now in his late 80s and
has had some medical issues which, I believe, have been the sole reason for why
he has not been burning holes in the sky w/ his Europa...it remains a low-time
aircraft, but I much admire what he has achieved. Incidentally, he built his
plane where he lives on a small island "off the grid", and true to form, the
manufacturers of the CAM engines have evaporated.
>>
>> Though the success rate for auto engine conversions for aircraft use may be
low, Alex's CAM125 installation along w/ his Airmaster CS prop has been one of
the success stories...of course, it would be more convincing to be able to point
to say 10 Europas thus powered, each w/ a thousand hours and still going strong.
Some listers may recall that w/ the demise of the original Europa company,
I attempted to assemble a group of FWF'less builders to utilize Alex's production
cowl molds and experience w/ mating the CAM125 to the Europa, but alas,
that never happened.
>>
>> Of course, auto engine conversions are a subset of the question of whether or
not one may choose to deviate from orthodoxy...anyone so interested can do some
web searches and find any number of scholarly papers and descriptive narratives
on the pros and cons of doing so.
>>
>> For myself...as I continue my XS mono powered w/ a derivative of a Subaru (the
RAM Performance 140 hp, MPEFIed engine w/ an Autoflight helical-geared PSRU)...I
spent about 15 months molding the cowls, designing and fabricating the mounting
frame, ditto for cooling and tuned exhaust systems, plus temp & pressure
sensors...176# "wet" but excluding cooling & exhaust systems.
>>
>> I find that a high tolerance for ambiguity has been essential...
>>
>> I will post test/performance data when available.
>>
>> I trust that there's a place in the Europa community for the occasional deviant,
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> <DSCN3071.jpg>
>>
>>
>> <DSCN3688.jpg>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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