---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/27/12: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:30 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (William Daniell) 2. 05:27 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Peter Zutrauen) 3. 06:22 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Ivan Midwing) 4. 07:02 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Gary Leinberger) 5. 07:38 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (europapa) 6. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (William Daniell) 7. 08:11 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Max Cointe) 8. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Paul McAllister) 9. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 10. 09:23 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (europapa) 11. 09:59 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Bob Harrison) 12. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (mau11) 13. 11:18 AM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Fred Klein) 14. 11:45 AM - Re: Congratulations to Thomas Scherer (tennant) 15. 12:01 PM - Re: Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Ivan Shaw) 16. 12:14 PM - Smart (Kevin Kedward) 17. 12:33 PM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Ivan Midwing) 18. 12:34 PM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Robert Borger) 19. 01:01 PM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (Robert Borger) 20. 05:42 PM - Re: Viking Aircraft engine (klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:30 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without knowing Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see quite a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else. This generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well have got it right this time. I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying. There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM100. Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Stout Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the Subaru engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I wouldn't trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education. Garry Stout Sent from my iPad On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan wrote: > > Bud or anyone, > This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know anything about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1 reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator, Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter, Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop retro fitable turbo-charge down the road. > Thanks, > Bill McClellan > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:32 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine fwiw, I've subscribed to his email group list and have been watching the banter with interest. I too have heard not-to-good things about the fellow. His on-line demeanor, and his answers to my in-person questions to him at Osh two years ago suggest arrogance. My issues with the design are 1- the prop turns the 'wrong' way. 2- he uses a rubber coupler in an attempt to deal with harmonic resonances, and from my EAA chapter colleagues experiences (with other redrives) and also my research on this topic, this damper will not be able to dissipate the power at the resonance peak (typically at lower rpms and power settings.... just above idle) for any extended durations. When asked about this design he didn't really answer it other than stating that the built-in fan 'blades' in the starter ring gear were designed to cool it. I think the Honda block has promise tho - it's the same engine that is raced in the amateur leagues, and also the same one they use in their outboard marine engines. Time will tell I guess whether his installation is more sound than his previous efforts with the Subarus Cheers, Pete On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:27 AM, William Daniell wrote: > > Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without > knowing > Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see > quite > a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else. This > generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well > have got it right this time. > > I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the > volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems > that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally > am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying. > > There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a > Honda/CAM100. > > Will > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Stout > Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine > > > This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the > Subaru > engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely > unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest > project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I > wouldn't > trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education. > > Garry Stout > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan > wrote: > > > > > > Bud or anyone, > > This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda > aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know > anything > about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1 > reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully > developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator, > Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter, > Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your > airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very > good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop > retro > fitable turbo-charge down the road. > > Thanks, > > Bill McClellan > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine From: Ivan Midwing Folks, I have been lurking on the forum now for awhile and would like to suggest to look at the UL-Power engine instead! As far as I now there is one in UK I think nearing completion for the Europa and my personal choice as soon as I can order the kit... I have no commercial interest in the company but to me that engine is probab ly the best engine right now. Blue Skies & Tailwinds! Ivan KajakCenter Halland Org nr; 5805034625 P: +46 703 621310 P: +46 704 694444 M: midwing@telia.com W: www.kajakcenter-halland.se 27 jan 2012 kl. 14:23 skrev Peter Zutrauen : > fwiw, I've subscribed to his email group list and have been watching the b anter with interest. I too have heard not-to-good things about the fellow. H is on-line demeanor, and his answers to my in-person questions to him at Osh two years ago suggest arrogance. > > My issues with the design are 1- the prop turns the 'wrong' way. 2- he use s a rubber coupler in an attempt to deal with harmonic resonances, and from m y EAA chapter colleagues experiences (with other redrives) and also my resea rch on this topic, this damper will not be able to dissipate the power at th e resonance peak (typically at lower rpms and power settings.... just above i dle) for any extended durations. When asked about this design he didn't real ly answer it other than stating that the built-in fan 'blades' in the starte r ring gear were designed to cool it. > > I think the Honda block has promise tho - it's the same engine that is rac ed in the amateur leagues, and also the same one they use in their outboard m arine engines. > > Time will tell I guess whether his installation is more sound than his pre vious efforts with the Subarus > > Cheers, > Pete > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:27 AM, William Daniell wro te: > > Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without knowi ng > Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see qui te > a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else. Thi s > generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well > have got it right this time. > > I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the > volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems > that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally > am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying. > > There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM10 0. > > Will > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Stout > Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine > > > This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the Suba ru > engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely > unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest > project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I wouldn 't > trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education. > > Garry Stout > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan > wrote: > > > > > > Bud or anyone, > > This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda > aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know anythi ng > about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1 > reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully > developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator, > Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter, > Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your > airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very > good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop ret ro > fitable turbo-charge down the road. > > Thanks, > > Bill McClellan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:24 AM PST US From: Gary Leinberger Subject: RE: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine I looked at using auto engines in my Europa - the applications (car versus airplane) are just so different. While the base cost of these converted en gines seems attractive, the problems soon run the cost (and the aggravation ) far above the cost of a Rotax - just started my 912S and am impressed wi th it. Like all German/Austria equipment, if maintained by the book, they s eem to run forever. After nine years of building the last thing I want is t o experiment with an engine generally backed by an undercapitalized entrepr eneur. If you are just starting your build, my advice is to wait to buy. One never knows how long it will take to build and any savings in buying the engine earlier (prices do go up with inflation) are eaten up in maintenance on dr ied-out o-rings and required updates that are standard for new engines. I l ooked at the 912S when I started the build in 2003 and it was $15K or so li st, and in 2010 bought my engine for $23K (with all the bits and shipping). This is about a 6% increase a year. But the engine is far superior to the 2003 engines (the U.S. Army required a bunch of very good changes) and Rota x improved the engine in other ways. Several other people that bought early (and cheaper) are paying more in the long run for an inferior early engine .. Gary Leinberger A237 Hope to fly this spring. From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:24 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine fwiw, I've subscribed to his email group list and have been watching the ba nter with interest. I too have heard not-to-good things about the fellow. H is on-line demeanor, and his answers to my in-person questions to him at Os h two years ago suggest arrogance. My issues with the design are 1- the prop turns the 'wrong' way. 2- he uses a rubber coupler in an attempt to deal with harmonic resonances, and from my EAA chapter colleagues experiences (with other redrives) and also my res earch on this topic, this damper will not be able to dissipate the power at the resonance peak (typically at lower rpms and power settings.... just ab ove idle) for any extended durations. When asked about this design he didn' t really answer it other than stating that the built-in fan 'blades' in the starter ring gear were designed to cool it. I think the Honda block has promise tho - it's the same engine that is race d in the amateur leagues, and also the same one they use in their outboard marine engines. Time will tell I guess whether his installation is more sound than his prev ious efforts with the Subarus Cheers, Pete On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:27 AM, William Daniell > wrote: ailto:wdaniell@etb.net.co>> Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without knowin g Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see quit e a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else. This generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well have got it right this time. I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying. There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM100 .. Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Stout Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine to:garrys@tampabay.rr.com>> This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the Subar u engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I wouldn' t trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education. Garry Stout Sent from my iPad On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan > wrote: > > > Bud or anyone, > This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know anythin g about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1 reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator, Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter, Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop retr o fitable turbo-charge down the road. > Thanks, > Bill McClellan > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:47 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine From: "europapa" There are some alternatives to the Rotax like this German one: http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_M800a_1.htm but I too would not dare to try it out. Juergen Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364946#364946 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:11 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine Interesting site - they have a big bore kit for the 912 taking it to 110hp....add a turbo....130-140hp..... -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of europapa Sent: 27 January, 2012 10:35 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine There are some alternatives to the Rotax like this German one: http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_M800a_1.htm but I too would not dare to try it out. Juergen Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364946#364946 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:45 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine Hi there all, The club in which I was (and still am) flying owns an Ecoflyer 135CDI from Robin. The engine is the A Class Mercedes engine modified by Thielert (now Centurion). Performances and easy to fly were there till we discovered the many troubles and lack of reliability attached to the transformation. Then the maintenance costs increased dramatically, and this was part of the failed over of Thielert. Socata (previously a subsidiary of EADS and now part of Daher) built from scratch an engine 230HP turbo charged. Even if the staff in charge was previously the one which mad the Renault 10 cylinders leader in Formula One , it took them 10 years to make it reliable, but still very expensive=85 My conclusion is: an engine made for a car is not made to be installed in a plane! Max Cointe F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 400 hours De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Gary Leinberger Envoy=E9 : vendredi 27 janvier 2012 15:58 =C0 : 'europa-list@matronics.com' Objet : RE: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine I looked at using auto engines in my Europa ' the applications (car versus airplane) are just so different. While the base cost of these converted engines seems attractive, the problems soon run the cost (and the aggravation) far above the cost of a Rotax - just started my 912S and am impressed with it. Like all German/Austria equipment, if maintained by the book, they seem to run forever. After nine years of building the last thing I want is to experiment with an engine generally backed by an undercapitalized entrepreneur. If you are just starting your build, my advice is to wait to buy. One never knows how long it will take to build and any savings in buying the engine earlier (prices do go up with inflation) are eaten up in maintenance on dried-out o-rings and required updates that are standard for new engines. I looked at the 912S when I started the build in 2003 and it was $15K or so list, and in 2010 bought my engine for $23K (with all the bits and shipping). This is about a 6% increase a year. But the engine is far superior to the 2003 engines (the U.S. Army required a bunch of very good changes) and Rotax improved the engine in other ways. Several other people that bought early (and cheaper) are paying more in the long run for an inferior early engine. Gary Leinberger A237 Hope to fly this spring. From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:24 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine fwiw, I've subscribed to his email group list and have been watching the banter with interest. I too have heard not-to-good things about the fellow. His on-line demeanor, and his answers to my in-person questions to him at Osh two years ago suggest arrogance. My issues with the design are 1- the prop turns the 'wrong' way. 2- he uses a rubber coupler in an attempt to deal with harmonic resonances, and from my EAA chapter colleagues experiences (with other redrives) and also my research on this topic, this damper will not be able to dissipate the power at the resonance peak (typically at lower rpms and power settings.... just above idle) for any extended durations. When asked about this design he didn't really answer it other than stating that the built-in fan 'blades' in the starter ring gear were designed to cool it. I think the Honda block has promise tho - it's the same engine that is raced in the amateur leagues, and also the same one they use in their outboard marine engines. Time will tell I guess whether his installation is more sound than his previous efforts with the Subarus Cheers, Pete On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:27 AM, William Daniell wrote: Yes I too looked at this option but as garry points out, and without knowing Eggenfelner, I saw a lot of negative stuff on the web and also you see quite a few of his engines for sale...being changed out for something else. This generates a significant degree of caution in me at least. He might well have got it right this time. I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying. There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM100. Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Stout Sent: 26 January, 2012 20:54 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine This engine is being sold by Eggenfeller.........formerly selling the Subaru engine conversions. Those Subaru engines turned out to be completely unreliable and downright dangerous. I know nothing about his latest project, the Honda conversion, but based on his previous engines, I wouldn't trust him. Google his name and you'll get a real education. Garry Stout Sent from my iPad On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William McClellan wrote: > > Bud or anyone, > This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know anything about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1 reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator, Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter, Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop retro fitable turbo-charge down the road. > Thanks, > Bill McClellan > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, Browse, Chat, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine From: Paul McAllister Guys, I'll toss my 2 cents worth into the ring on alternative engines. Fristly I would like to preface my comments with the statement that if we didn't try new things then we would be still flying with stuff powered from designs that trace there roots back 50 years. Come to think of it, if we didn't try new stuff then we wouldn't be even flying Europa's. Installing alternative power plants is not for the faint of heart, even proven designs. I recently completed some cooling modifications to my 914 and it was a lot of testing, work, re work and more testing. My modifications are trivial compared to something like a Viking. Even conventional conversions such as the Jabaru have taken a lot of collective effort to get them to the point of being a viable alternative. I don't want to discourage anyone from trying alternatives, but please be aware that once you move away from the original design that you moving down a path that will consume considerable resources. Cheers, Paul ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:26 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine Hi Paul=0AI agree with everything you say, I would add that even now the Ja b is still not a viable alternative (imho) I onlyknow of one successful Jab 6 owner and he isn't completely satisfied.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A______________ __________________=0A From: Paul McAllister =0A ject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine=0A =0A=0AGuys, =0A=0AI'll toss my 2 cents worth into the ring on alternative engines.- Fristly I w ould like to preface my comments with the statement that if we didn't try n ew things then we would be still flying with stuff powered from designs tha t trace there roots back 50 years.- Come to think of it, if we didn't try new stuff then we wouldn't be even flying Europa's.=0A=0AInstalling altern ative power plants is not for the faint of heart, even proven designs. I re cently completed some cooling modifications to my 914 and it was a lot of t esting, work, re work and more testing.- My modifications are trivial com pared to something like a Viking.- Even conventional conversions such as the Jabaru have taken a lot of collective effort to get them to the point o f being a viable alternative.=0A=0AI don't want to discourage anyone from t rying alternatives, but please be aware that once you move away from- the original design that you moving down a path that will consume considerable =========================0A ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:16 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine From: "europapa" I have been interested in new aircraft engines for a long time and I have learned that there are more problems with the gearbox, the clutch or both than with the engine itself. Thats why I wouldn't trust the the three cogs they call gearbox on the silent hektik engine. http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_M800a_1.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364959#364959 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:57 AM PST US From: Bob Harrison Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine Hi! Graham /all Right on the money ! ...and I certainly know a good amount of the hassle associated with the subject! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 27 January 2012 16:44 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine Hi Paul I agree with everything you say, I would add that even now the Jab is still not a viable alternative (imho) I onlyknow of one successful Jab 6 owner and he isn't completely satisfied. Graham _____ From: Paul McAllister Sent: Friday, 27 January 2012, 16:17 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Viking Aircraft engine Guys, I'll toss my 2 cents worth into the ring on alternative engines. Fristly I would like to preface my comments with the statement that if we didn't try new things then we would be still flying with stuff powered from designs that trace there roots back 50 years. Come to think of it, if we didn't try new stuff then we wouldn't be even flying Europa's. Installing alternative power plants is not for the faint of heart, even proven designs. I recently completed some cooling modifications to my 914 and it was a lot of testing, work, re work and more testing. My modifications are trivial compared to something like a Viking. Even conventional conversions such as the Jabaru have taken a lot of collective effort to get them to the point of being a viable alternative. I don't want to discourage anyone from trying alternatives, but please be aware that once you move away from the original design that you moving down a path that will consume considerable resources. Cheers, Paul http://www.matro=================== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:41 AM PST US From: "mau11" Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 26 [cn] An aircraft engine is a "good engine" when he have made ten years of flight life minimum! To resolve all problems. Michel AUVRAY ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:59 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:27 AM, William Daniell wrote: > I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant > and the > volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing > problems > that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am > personally > am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying. > > There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/ > CAM100. Will...that would be Alex Bowman who flies out of Nanaimo, BC...he has the CAM125 which is built around (I believe) a mid-80s Honda Civic engine...and he's been quite satisfied w/ performance, ops, and maintenance. He flew it to the EAA show at Arlington, WA back in 2004 or 5, and I've seen it at a fly-in at Pemberton, BC alongside Peter Timm's Classic. Alex is now in his late 80s and has had some medical issues which, I believe, have been the sole reason for why he has not been burning holes in the sky w/ his Europa...it remains a low-time aircraft, but I much admire what he has achieved. Incidentally, he built his plane where he lives on a small island "off the grid", and true to form, the manufacturers of the CAM engines have evaporated. Though the success rate for auto engine conversions for aircraft use may be low, Alex's CAM125 installation along w/ his Airmaster CS prop has been one of the success stories...of course, it would be more convincing to be able to point to say 10 Europas thus powered, each w/ a thousand hours and still going strong. Some listers may recall that w/ the demise of the original Europa company, I attempted to assemble a group of FWF'less builders to utilize Alex's production cowl molds and experience w/ mating the CAM125 to the Europa, but alas, that never happened. Of course, auto engine conversions are a subset of the question of whether or not one may choose to deviate from orthodoxy...anyone so interested can do some web searches and find any number of scholarly papers and descriptive narratives on the pros and cons of doing so. For myself...as I continue my XS mono powered w/ a derivative of a Subaru (the RAM Performance 140 hp, MPEFIed engine w/ an Autoflight helical-geared PSRU)...I spent about 15 months molding the cowls, designing and fabricating the mounting frame, ditto for cooling and tuned exhaust systems, plus temp & pressure sensors...176# "wet" but excluding cooling & exhaust systems. I find that a high tolerance for ambiguity has been essential... I will post test/performance data when available. I trust that there's a place in the Europa community for the occasional deviant, Fred ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:33 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Congratulations to Thomas Scherer From: "tennant" I must second the congratulations. I must agree with Richard. Having also done some time in West Africa I can only hope that the Europa will someday return to Europe. I think that leaving an aircraft in Cameroon without an armed guard is braver than flying the Atlantic!! Wishing Thomas all the best on his posting there. Barry Tennant -------- Barry Tennant D-EHBT At EDLM - Germany Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364966#364966 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:05 PM PST US From: "Ivan Shaw" Subject: RE: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine Words of wisdom in deed Ivan From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mau11 Sent: 27 January 2012 18:18 Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine An aircraft engine is a "good engine" when he have made ten years of flight life minimum! To resolve all problems. Michel AUVRAY ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:42 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Smart From: Kevin Kedward Hi Guys, What happened to the Smart car engine installation ? Regards Kevin Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine From: Ivan Midwing The "other" Ivan agrees! Cheers! Ivan Midwing Sweden KajakCenter Halland Org nr; 5805034625 P: +46 703 621310 P: +46 704 694444 M: midwing@telia.com W: www.kajakcenter-halland.se 27 jan 2012 kl. 20:58 skrev "Ivan Shaw" : > Words of wisdom in deed > > Ivan > > > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mau11 > Sent: 27 January 2012 18:18 > To: europa-list > Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine > > > > An aircraft engine is a "good engine" when he have made ten years of fligh t life minimum! To resolve all problems. > > Michel AUVRAY > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > < - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine From: Robert Borger Bill, Think about all that has to be developed to put in a non-standard engine. 1. New cowling - probably has to be made from scratch. Have you ever made a female mold? 2. New baffling - probably will require multiple tries and much effort to get the cooling right. 3. New engine mount - you'll be lucky to get it right the first time. 4. New Plumbing - probably not too terrible once the above has been settled. 5. New Electrical - again, probably not too terrible once the above has been settled. Depends a lot on the electrical requirements of the engine, F/I, ignition, etc. 6. New Physical connections - throttle, mixture, carb heat, etc. The Europa was designed for and around the Rotax 9xx engine. A complete FWF kit is available for purchase and it all works (at least it did on mine). Electrical and plumbing are all worked out, just do it like the instructions say. Physical connections are all worked out for you (no mixture or carb heat to fuss over). They are light, powerful, economical and reliable (if you follow the instructions). No they are not perfect but they are pretty darn good. Anything else and you become the chief engineer and developer on a serious experimental project. Ya pays your money and takes your chances. (And do check into Mr. Eggenfeller) Good luck which ever way you go. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jan 26, 2012, at 12:18 PM, William McClellan wrote: > > Bud or anyone, > This seems to be a very nice engine for the Europa, a Viking Honda aircraft engine. The Viking shop in in Edgewater, FL. Do you know anything about this engine? It is the Honda 1500 cc, 117 hp, 6300 rpm max, 2.33/1 reduction drive, fuel injected, liquid cooled, 178 lb dry weight, fully developed package for aircraft use. The package includes 40A Alternator, Dual Engine controllers, Exhaust / Muffler, Air intake, K&N Filter, Starter, Radiator, Oil cooler, fuel pumps and Engine mounting for your airplane. The engine is fully assembled. $13,000 Looks like a very good alternative to the Rotax. They haven't yet but likely to develop retro fitable turbo-charge down the road. > Thanks, > Bill McClellan ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine From: Robert Borger Fred, There's plenty of room in the Europa (and total OBAM) community for you wild and crazy guys. You are out there on the pointy end of this whole Experimental thing. God bless you for all your efforts, failures and successes. I hope to see you at RR this year. BTW, nice looking cowl! Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:15 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:27 AM, William Daniell wrote: > >> I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the >> volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems >> that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally >> am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying. >> >> There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM100. > > Will...that would be Alex Bowman who flies out of Nanaimo, BC...he has the CAM125 which is built around (I believe) a mid-80s Honda Civic engine...and he's been quite satisfied w/ performance, ops, and maintenance. He flew it to the EAA show at Arlington, WA back in 2004 or 5, and I've seen it at a fly-in at Pemberton, BC alongside Peter Timm's Classic. Alex is now in his late 80s and has had some medical issues which, I believe, have been the sole reason for why he has not been burning holes in the sky w/ his Europa...it remains a low-time aircraft, but I much admire what he has achieved. Incidentally, he built his plane where he lives on a small island "off the grid", and true to form, the manufacturers of the CAM engines have evaporated. > > Though the success rate for auto engine conversions for aircraft use may be low, Alex's CAM125 installation along w/ his Airmaster CS prop has been one of the success stories...of course, it would be more convincing to be able to point to say 10 Europas thus powered, each w/ a thousand hours and still going strong. Some listers may recall that w/ the demise of the original Europa company, I attempted to assemble a group of FWF'less builders to utilize Alex's production cowl molds and experience w/ mating the CAM125 to the Europa, but alas, that never happened. > > Of course, auto engine conversions are a subset of the question of whether or not one may choose to deviate from orthodoxy...anyone so interested can do some web searches and find any number of scholarly papers and descriptive narratives on the pros and cons of doing so. > > For myself...as I continue my XS mono powered w/ a derivative of a Subaru (the RAM Performance 140 hp, MPEFIed engine w/ an Autoflight helical-geared PSRU)...I spent about 15 months molding the cowls, designing and fabricating the mounting frame, ditto for cooling and tuned exhaust systems, plus temp & pressure sensors...176# "wet" but excluding cooling & exhaust systems. > > I find that a high tolerance for ambiguity has been essential... > > I will post test/performance data when available. > > I trust that there's a place in the Europa community for the occasional deviant, > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Viking Aircraft engine From: klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com Super nice looking cowl. Put some paint on that thing and let's go fly! Kevin On Jan 27, 2012, at 12:58 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > > Fred, > > There's plenty of room in the Europa (and total OBAM) community for you wild and crazy guys. You are out there on the pointy end of this whole Experimental thing. God bless you for all your efforts, failures and successes. I hope to see you at RR this year. > > BTW, nice looking cowl! > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger@mac.com > > On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:15 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:27 AM, William Daniell wrote: >> >>> I think the base Honda fit engine is a very interesting powerplant and the >>> volume and quality control is unlikely to have the manufacturing problems >>> that the aviation manufacturers have like dodgy cranks but I am personally >>> am not up for the experimentation process required to get it flying. >>> >>> There was a chap flying in Canada whose name escapes me with a Honda/CAM100. >> >> Will...that would be Alex Bowman who flies out of Nanaimo, BC...he has the CAM125 which is built around (I believe) a mid-80s Honda Civic engine...and he's been quite satisfied w/ performance, ops, and maintenance. He flew it to the EAA show at Arlington, WA back in 2004 or 5, and I've seen it at a fly-in at Pemberton, BC alongside Peter Timm's Classic. Alex is now in his late 80s and has had some medical issues which, I believe, have been the sole reason for why he has not been burning holes in the sky w/ his Europa...it remains a low-time aircraft, but I much admire what he has achieved. Incidentally, he built his plane where he lives on a small island "off the grid", and true to form, the manufacturers of the CAM engines have evaporated. >> >> Though the success rate for auto engine conversions for aircraft use may be low, Alex's CAM125 installation along w/ his Airmaster CS prop has been one of the success stories...of course, it would be more convincing to be able to point to say 10 Europas thus powered, each w/ a thousand hours and still going strong. Some listers may recall that w/ the demise of the original Europa company, I attempted to assemble a group of FWF'less builders to utilize Alex's production cowl molds and experience w/ mating the CAM125 to the Europa, but alas, that never happened. >> >> Of course, auto engine conversions are a subset of the question of whether or not one may choose to deviate from orthodoxy...anyone so interested can do some web searches and find any number of scholarly papers and descriptive narratives on the pros and cons of doing so. >> >> For myself...as I continue my XS mono powered w/ a derivative of a Subaru (the RAM Performance 140 hp, MPEFIed engine w/ an Autoflight helical-geared PSRU)...I spent about 15 months molding the cowls, designing and fabricating the mounting frame, ditto for cooling and tuned exhaust systems, plus temp & pressure sensors...176# "wet" but excluding cooling & exhaust systems. >> >> I find that a high tolerance for ambiguity has been essential... >> >> I will post test/performance data when available. >> >> I trust that there's a place in the Europa community for the occasional deviant, >> >> Fred >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.