Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:09 AM - Re: AW: AW: Deformation of canopy (Raimo Toivio)
2. 05:19 AM - Re: Deformation of canopy (tennant)
3. 06:39 AM - AW: AW: AW: Deformation of canopy (uvtreith)
4. 10:35 AM - Re: AW: AW: Deformation of canopy (Fred Klein)
5. 12:47 PM - Re: Deformation of canopy (Raimo Toivio)
6. 01:52 PM - Re: Deformation of canopy (Bob Harrison)
7. 02:24 PM - Re: Deformation of canopy (Paul McAllister)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Deformation of canopy |
Hi Bruno,
there is even more to think:
When green on, you know the bolts are in AND whole system is
operational.
If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you be
pretty sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or fuse
your greens are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they are not.
Cannot be sure!
***
I give you an example:
We have a personal well water in our home. Sometimes in the spring time
the water level goes too low and there is a risk we run out of water.
That is really awful.
That is why I built a warning system like this:
1) We see two blue high bright leds in the house when we have water more
than enough.
2) We see only one blue led when there is still water but not so much
= we have to save it, no jacuzzi any more!
3) We see no leds at all when we have less than 500 litres water which
is a critical amount for us.
So, no led means save water OR system is somehow broken. Problems
anyway.
System cannot jam (there are electrodes in the well) =93 blue led
meas surely we have weter =93 they cannot light if the electrodes
are not in water.
***
Same w Europa=C2=B4s doors and gears and similar =93 better to
have indication when all is ok.
If you really wanna play w gizmos put greens when bolts are closed,
orange when open and reds + bell when open AND airborne or gear
retracted (if you have!). That what I did...fool proof.
Cheers, Raimo
From: uvtreith
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:59 AM
Subject: AW: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Raimo,
In fact, my first idea was to use the green LEDs as you suggest. LEDs on
= doors closed. But than I thought, better no lights on when system is
ok. But you are right; green lights will give you a safer feeling. In my
opinion, as the rear door bolts are critical, switches on the rear bolts
should be do it.
I have seen your pippins to secure the handles. I will do the same for
the passenger side.
Have a nice and safe flight time too.
All the best,
Bruno
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Raimo
Toivio
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 20:03
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno,
I elected to make a system which have two serial connected micro
switches per door. When they are BOTH IN I have a green led. When I have
two green leds I am pretty sure my doors are firmly closed.
Otherwice, they are open OR system is somehow broken. Two Greens = The
System is operational = The Doors are closed.
Maybe you would like to have red lights (when doors are open) instead of
greens or change MS=C2=B4s to be NO (normally open [when doors are
open]) as I have them.
I promise what more you see green lights when flying that happier you
will be (there are possibilities to have masses of green)! ;)
***
Notice also my extra safety: there is also a pip-pin to prevent an
unwanted inflight door opening.
Just my =C2=BD penny or how those englismen that says so gently and good
luck for you!
Raimo
Cheers, Raimo Toivio
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio@fly.to
www.rwm.fi
From: uvtreith
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 6:51 PM
Subject: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Roland,
I would leave the door inside its door frame and would wait for warmer
days; maybe it will set by itself after a while.
The best protection for this is to built in an advice. I will install in
springtime two micro switches mounted on an aluminium plate together
with a common carriage bolt (Schlo=C3=9Fschraube).
Please see attached pictures (just made for you). You have to make one
mirror inverted (spiegelverkehrt). The switch-bolt arrangement weights
35 gramm each.
In my panel I have fitted two small green LED lights and the micro
switches are openers. When the door is correctly closed, the LED will go
out.
Best Regards,
Bruno
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Roland
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 12:32
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi all,
yesterday something embarrassing (and dangerous) happened to me. After
departure (already in 5000 ft) I noticed that the door on the
copilot-side was not locked on the rear side (I almost hear you saying:
"that cannot happen when you worked through the checklist prior take
off"). You are so right!
After the first shock (suddenly the appropriate passage of the POH came
crystal clear in my mind: "when the door springs open it will most
likely depart the aircraft") I asked my Co to pull the handle in front
and I did the same on the rear.
I was so lucky to land with my Europa as a whole!! When leaving the
aircraft my Co noticed a resistance when opening the door. It turned
out, that the frame on the top of the door seemed to be deformed in a
way that the gap between door and frame/roof became too small causing
this resistance approximately when half open (then the door frame
contacts the roof frame) . When complete open or closed everything seems
normal. The hinges and screws where it's mounted are apparently
undamaged.
Does anyone have a suggestion how to bring the door into a perfect fit
again?
Thanks for your input!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
Trigear XS
Rotax 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365518#365518
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| Subject: | Re: Deformation of canopy |
Hi Roland,
I would like to have a look at your problem. It's only a 10 min flight from EDLM.
Will you be at the airfield on Sunday morning (if it's not below -5).
Best regards
Barry
--------
Barry Tennant
D-EHBT
At EDLM - Germany
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365713#365713
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| Subject: | Deformation of canopy |
Hi Raimo,
You are right. I will change the switches so that the green lights are
on
when the bolts are engaged.
If the lights are not on it could be that the doors are not engaged (or
one
of them), that the LED is dead or that something with the power supply
is
not ok.
Thanks for that advice.
Best Regards,
Bruno
_____
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Raimo
Toivio
Gesendet: Montag, 6. Februar 2012 12:07
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno,
there is even more to think:
When green on, you know the bolts are in AND whole system is
operational.
If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you be
pretty
sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or fuse your
greens
are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they are not. Cannot be
sure!
***
I give you an example:
We have a personal well water in our home. Sometimes in the spring time
the
water level goes too low and there is a risk we run out of water. That
is
really awful.
That is why I built a warning system like this:
1) We see two blue high bright leds in the house when we have water more
than enough.
2) We see only one blue led when there is still water but not so much
= we
have to save it, no jacuzzi any more!
3) We see no leds at all when we have less than 500 litres water which
is a
critical amount for us.
So, no led means save water OR system is somehow broken. Problems
anyway.
System cannot jam (there are electrodes in the well) ' blue led meas
surely
we have weter ' they cannot light if the electrodes are not in water.
***
Same w Europa=B4s doors and gears and similar ' better to have
indication when
all is ok.
If you really wanna play w gizmos put greens when bolts are closed,
orange
when open and reds + bell when open AND airborne or gear retracted (if
you
have!). That what I did...fool proof.
Cheers, Raimo
From: uvtreith <mailto:uvtreith@t-online.de>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:59 AM
Subject: AW: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Raimo,
In fact, my first idea was to use the green LEDs as you suggest. LEDs on
doors closed. But than I thought, better no lights on when system is ok.
But
you are right; green lights will give you a safer feeling. In my
opinion, as
the rear door bolts are critical, switches on the rear bolts should be
do
it.
I have seen your pippins to secure the handles. I will do the same for
the
passenger side.
Have a nice and safe flight time too.
All the best,
Bruno
_____
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Raimo
Toivio
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 20:03
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno,
I elected to make a system which have two serial connected micro
switches
per door. When they are BOTH IN I have a green led. When I have two
green
leds I am pretty sure my doors are firmly closed.
Otherwice, they are open OR system is somehow broken. Two Greens = The
System is operational = The Doors are closed.
Maybe you would like to have red lights (when doors are open) instead of
greens or change MS=B4s to be NO (normally open [when doors are open])
as I
have them.
I promise what more you see green lights when flying that happier you
will
be (there are possibilities to have masses of green)! ;)
***
Notice also my extra safety: there is also a pip-pin to prevent an
unwanted
inflight door opening.
Just my =BD penny or how those englismen that says so gently and good
luck for
you!
Raimo
Cheers, Raimo Toivio
Europa A2A-ala2OK
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
<mailto:toivio@fly.to> toivio@fly.to
<http://www.rwm.fi/> www.rwm.fi
From: uvtreith <mailto:uvtreith@t-online.de>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 6:51 PM
Subject: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Roland,
I would leave the door inside its door frame and would wait for warmer
days;
maybe it will set by itself after a while.
The best protection for this is to built in an advice. I will install in
springtime two micro switches mounted on an aluminium plate together
with a
common carriage bolt (Schlo=DFschraube).
Please see attached pictures (just made for you). You have to make one
mirror inverted (spiegelverkehrt). The switch-bolt arrangement weights
35
gramm each.
In my panel I have fitted two small green LED lights and the micro
switches
are openers. When the door is correctly closed, the LED will go out.
Best Regards,
Bruno
-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Roland
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 12:32
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi all,
yesterday something embarrassing (and dangerous) happened to me. After
departure (already in 5000 ft) I noticed that the door on the
copilot-side
was not locked on the rear side (I almost hear you saying: "that cannot
happen when you worked through the checklist prior take off"). You are
so
right!
After the first shock (suddenly the appropriate passage of the POH came
crystal clear in my mind: "when the door springs open it will most
likely
depart the aircraft") I asked my Co to pull the handle in front and I
did
the same on the rear.
I was so lucky to land with my Europa as a whole!! When leaving the
aircraft
my Co noticed a resistance when opening the door. It turned out, that
the
frame on the top of the door seemed to be deformed in a way that the gap
between door and frame/roof became too small causing this resistance
approximately when half open (then the door frame contacts the roof
frame) .
When complete open or closed everything seems normal. The hinges and
screws
where it's mounted are apparently undamaged.
Does anyone have a suggestion how to bring the door into a perfect fit
again?
Thanks for your input!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
Trigear XS
Rotax 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365518#365518
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| Subject: | Re: Deformation of canopy |
On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
> If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you
> be pretty sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or
> fuse your greens are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they
> are not.
All,
I have followed this thread with interest as it seems to embody the
tension between keeping things simple on one hand and fitting out our
planes sufficiently to ensure safe flight on the other.
I've paid some attention to the issue of ensuring the rear shoot-bolts
engage because when fitting the doors, I found that the rear portion
of the door seemed to spring outward just enough for the rear shoot-
bolts to miss the aluminum tubing which prevented proper closure...not
good!
After sitting in the left seat...twisting my body and reaching about
to determine where I could reach in order to pull in the aft portion
of the door prior to closing the lever and engaging the shoot-
bolts...I installed a simple tab on the window frames (both port and
stbd) which I could grip and pull inward. One thing I noticed while
checking out my little ergonomics exercise was that I found that I
could not feel whether or not the shoot-bolts were properly engaged or
not, nor could I readily see likewise. The fundemental idea I took
away from these exercises was that it was essential to pull the rear
portion of the window/door inward BEFORE moving the latching handle
forward.
As luck would have it, after installing the plexiglas windows, I found
that the additional weight completely eliminates the tendency for the
rear portion of the window/door to spring outward and for the shoot-
bolts to not engage; however, I have not as yet fitted the tubular
rubber seal...so perhaps the conditions may change.
My hunch at this point is that my checklist MUST include an item
stating: PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING.
For the moment, I'm content with that and will not add the additional
complexity of a warning light system. I've had a look at about 20
Europas and, I believe, have yet to see a microswitch/LED
installation...I'm wondering how common are such installations.
Fred
A194
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Deformation of canopy |
Fred
that is true. An ideal Europa=B4s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790
lbs). That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and
build extra. They are also not free!
I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
Why?
- for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator,
heating and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15
kgs 34 lbs penalty).
- for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS,
TCAS, alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights,
panel and a cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc
means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy
painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and
extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
- for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration
etc say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
That is all together 70 kgs and those kilos make Romeo Tango
personalized for our taste.
For me it was the best part of the building to think about all these
extras and judge what to do and what do not.
***
Door bolts warning system:
2xmicroswitch (4 is not necessary)
some wire
one led (two is not necessary)
connected to the fuse you already have
Penalty is not more than 0,1 kg = 0,225 lbs.
You will build it about 2 hours only.
And spend money let=B4s say few bugs like 20 dollars.
It is a bit ackward to check rearbolts. Really. At least my body does
not want to twist to the left so much. It is dangerous to your healthy.
It is human not to do it always. But it is easy to check one green led.
Very easy!
You can still have your statement PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING and
then verify you have the green led.
Do it, for me please!
Raimo OH-XRT
Finland
From: Fred Klein
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: AW: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you be
pretty sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or fuse
your greens are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they are not.
All,
I have followed this thread with interest as it seems to embody the
tension between keeping things simple on one hand and fitting out our
planes sufficiently to ensure safe flight on the other.
I've paid some attention to the issue of ensuring the rear shoot-bolts
engage because when fitting the doors, I found that the rear portion of
the door seemed to spring outward just enough for the rear shoot-bolts
to miss the aluminum tubing which prevented proper closure...not good!
After sitting in the left seat...twisting my body and reaching about to
determine where I could reach in order to pull in the aft portion of the
door prior to closing the lever and engaging the shoot-bolts...I
installed a simple tab on the window frames (both port and stbd) which I
could grip and pull inward. One thing I noticed while checking out my
little ergonomics exercise was that I found that I could not feel
whether or not the shoot-bolts were properly engaged or not, nor could I
readily see likewise. The fundemental idea I took away from these
exercises was that it was essential to pull the rear portion of the
window/door inward BEFORE moving the latching handle forward.
As luck would have it, after installing the plexiglas windows, I found
that the additional weight completely eliminates the tendency for the
rear portion of the window/door to spring outward and for the
shoot-bolts to not engage; however, I have not as yet fitted the tubular
rubber seal...so perhaps the conditions may change.
My hunch at this point is that my checklist MUST include an item
stating: PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING.
For the moment, I'm content with that and will not add the additional
complexity of a warning light system. I've had a look at about 20
Europas and, I believe, have yet to see a microswitch/LED
installation...I'm wondering how common are such installations.
Fred
A194
Message 6
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| Subject: | Deformation of canopy |
Hi! Fred/Raimo.
I have a couple of wood =93pull handles=94 on the rear portion of each
door to
ensure they are shut. I have to say they are never used because I would
need
to be a damn contortionist to get at them from the Europa seat
positions. If
Raimo=92s system is fool proof then go for it but I use my eyes on the
starboard side and ask the passenger to check port side to verify they
are
closed and the bolt is =93home=94.
Over 800 hours perhaps 900 and never yet a take off with a door not
properly
closed.
Regards
Bob Harrison (G-PTAG)
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo
Toivio
Sent: 06 February 2012 20:44
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Fred
that is true. An ideal Europa=B4s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790
lbs).
That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and build
extra.
They are also not free!
I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
Why?
- for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator,
heating
and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15 kgs 34
lbs
penalty).
- for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS,
TCAS,
alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights, panel and
a
cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc means about
20
kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy
painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and
extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
- for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration
etc
say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
-------------------------------------------
That is all together 70 kgs and those kilos make Romeo Tango
personalized
for our taste.
For me it was the best part of the building to think about all these
extras
and judge what to do and what do not.
***
Door bolts warning system:
2xmicroswitch (4 is not necessary)
some wire
one led (two is not necessary)
connected to the fuse you already have
Penalty is not more than 0,1 kg = 0,225 lbs.
You will build it about 2 hours only.
And spend money let=B4s say few bugs like 20 dollars.
It is a bit ackward to check rearbolts. Really. At least my body does
not
want to twist to the left so much. It is dangerous to your healthy. It
is
human not to do it always. But it is easy to check one green led. Very
easy!
You can still have your statement PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING and
then
verify you have the green led.
Do it, for me please!
Raimo OH-XRT
Finland
From: Fred Klein <mailto:fklein@orcasonline.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: AW: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you be
pretty
sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or fuse your
greens
are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they are not.
All,
I have followed this thread with interest as it seems to embody the
tension
between keeping things simple on one hand and fitting out our planes
sufficiently to ensure safe flight on the other.
I've paid some attention to the issue of ensuring the rear shoot-bolts
engage because when fitting the doors, I found that the rear portion of
the
door seemed to spring outward just enough for the rear shoot-bolts to
miss
the aluminum tubing which prevented proper closure...not good!
After sitting in the left seat...twisting my body and reaching about to
determine where I could reach in order to pull in the aft portion of the
door prior to closing the lever and engaging the shoot-bolts...I
installed a
simple tab on the window frames (both port and stbd) which I could grip
and
pull inward. One thing I noticed while checking out my little ergonomics
exercise was that I found that I could not feel whether or not the
shoot-bolts were properly engaged or not, nor could I readily see
likewise.
The fundemental idea I took away from these exercises was that it was
essential to pull the rear portion of the window/door inward BEFORE
moving
the latching handle forward.
As luck would have it, after installing the plexiglas windows, I found
that
the additional weight completely eliminates the tendency for the rear
portion of the window/door to spring outward and for the shoot-bolts to
not
engage; however, I have not as yet fitted the tubular rubber seal...so
perhaps the conditions may change.
My hunch at this point is that my checklist MUST include an item
stating:
PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING.
For the moment, I'm content with that and will not add the additional
complexity of a warning light system. I've had a look at about 20
Europas
and, I believe, have yet to see a microswitch/LED installation...I'm
wondering how common are such installations.
Fred
A194
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Deformation of canopy |
You didn't mention the hot tub and sauna [?]
do not archive.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
> Fred
>
> that is true. An ideal Europa=B4s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790 lbs
).
> That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and build
> extra. They are also not free!
>
> I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
>
> Why?
>
> - for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator,
> heating and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15
> kgs 34 lbs penalty).
>
> - for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS,
> TCAS, alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights, panel
> and a cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc means
> about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
>
> - for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy
> painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
>
> - for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and
> extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
>
> - for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration
> etc say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
>
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