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1. 03:10 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Pip-pins_in_the?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa=C2=B4s_doors_-_more_safety_or?= =?utf-8?Q?_not=3F_=28earlier:_deformation_of_t?= =?utf-8?Q?he_canopy=29? (Raimo Toivio)
2. 06:14 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Pip-pins_in_the?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa=C2=B4s_doors_-_more_safety_or?= =?utf-8?Q?_not=3F_=28earlier:_deformation_of_t?= =?utf-8?Q?he_canopy=29? (Max Cointe)
3. 08:27 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Pip-pins_in_the?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa=C2=B4s_doors_-_more_safety_or?= =?utf-8?Q?_not=3F_=28earlier:_deformation_of_t?= =?utf-8?Q?he_canopy=29? (Raimo Toivio)
4. 09:55 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Pip-pins_in_the?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa=C2=B4s_doors_-_more_safety_or?= =?utf-8?Q?_not=3F_=28earlier:_deformation_of_t?= =?utf-8?Q?he_canopy=29? (Raimo Toivio)
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| Subject: | Re: f-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Pip-pins_in_the?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa=C2=B4s_doors_-_more_safety_or?= |
=?utf-8?Q?_not=3F_=28earlier:_deformation_of_t?= =?utf-8?Q?he_canopy=29?
Max
Laurent have to be a real fast builder: KIT # 560 and completed 2003. I
have a KIT # 417 and completed 1999 =93 2007. I assume he build it
only a year or two?
***
I wrote =9CFrench James Bond =9C because I do not believe
original JB is not so brave he could separate by purpose Europa=C2=B4s
door during flight (like you did but one only). Now I know =93 he
will be OSS117. I assume you are OSS116.
***
Welcome to Finland =93 F-PMLH would be 2nd F-registered Europa in
EFTP (attachment).
If you are going to fly w/o doors, I recommend you to come when
midsummer...
Raimo
OH-XRT
FINLAND
do not archive
From: Max Cointe
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 12:40 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Raimo,
Many thanks for your good wishes! Yes we like our small toy, but
it=99s not so new as we bought it when it had already ~300
hours It has been built by a good fellow named Laurent
Houssette and his first flight was in 2003!
James Bond was Brit, not French (OSS117 is French). I hope never have to
try the T-bar version (specially at 130 Kt) but if it happens, then
I=99ll do my best also to save me and my and I and the passenger
and the plane (typical British expression) J
Have good flight in your cold but wonderful country, I hope to go over
there sometime!
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 8 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 22:33
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Re: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Max,
great.
After your thrilling experience you are so cool, that you only
- removed the big buttons
and
- pay more attention!
What if you have next time 130 kts AND that happens because you have
earlier some other difficulties like your situational awareness has
almost gone (hasle in the cockpit)?
***
Impact on the tail =93 no damages at all?
***
JUST WONDER HOW MANY OF US HAS LOST OR HAS ALMOST LOST HIS DOOR DURING
FLIGHT???
During past years I have noticed several cases there and there. Most
will never publish them. How many extra doors Europa Aircraft have sold?
With simple electrics and more simple pip-pins that will never happen.
BTW =93 when the door is open and the safety belts are tight I
could not reach the door which is up until now, when my pip-pins have a
lanyard...
***
After reading your story I got an influence Europa is flyable without
doors as a convertible /like Corvette with T-bar-roof ?
Have anybody tried that (to remove both doors on the ground or inflight
like French James Bond)?
If safe that would be fun!
***
captain is the boss (not God as I=99m layman)
We too. I wrote =9CGod=9D to give an absolute & universal
meaning =9CThe Captain is The First of All in his /her
plane=9D.
As a layman we do not believe somebody is watching us. Or taking care.
Or nothing.
That is a principal reason for example for those funny pip-pins.
I have to do my best by myself to get a max safety. I try to be better.
***
Obviously you like your plane. Almost new and already 400 hrs.
I wish you a smooth engine sound over Massif Central,
Raimo (full of pip-pins now =93 good night)
OH-XRT
FINLAND
From: Max Cointe
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Hi There All,
We experienced a door opening during the third take-off after we bought
F-PMLH! Did the copilot (also co-owner) shacked the handle by accident
with elbow, did the DLO7 went out before closing we=99ll never
know! But passing 500Ft over the forest close to the strip, we had a big
stress time when the door departed and got an impact somewhere back on
the tail BUT no stall, no asymmetric drag under full power on
climb, no more at 80-90 Kt on the circuit (we had to make a standard
pattern because of traffic on the field) before we landed without
trouble. As we are partisan of no-paper for flight (iPad including maps
and VACs + Garmin 296) no paper spread over (redundant paper maps are in
the luggage on the back). For sure it didn=99t happened at 130Kt
IAS (our current speed) nor at 8 500 Ft (altitude needed when flying
over Massif Central) but I guess that main danger remain the pilot
reaction and panic mode! We may have been lucky as the impact on the
tail did not affect rudder or direction, but believe it or not but this
incident gave us an BIG trust on qualities of flight of the plane! And a
VERY BIG motivation on executing the check list: verify the DLO7 before
jumping aboard (yes I can jump in because of gymnastic every morning),
verify doors closing front (easy) and rear (more difficult but doable
when alone may be also because gymnastic every morning) and / or teach
passenger or copilot to verify your side, is part of the check list and
done at each flight! (The only mod was to remove the big buttons on the
handles to avoid inattentive pull-up).
This is our experience, no a lesson and the captain is the boss (not God
as I=99m layman) in his plane when flying but I (and my co-owner)
will not add electric and mechanical complexity here, but certainly pay
more attention, say the same one I pay when I sign the approval after
executing the maintenance.
Good flights and blue sky as someone use to sign his messages.
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 7 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 23:16
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more safety
or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Tim, Bruno and all who care about flight safety
This is an old threat and I am bit agonizing. But once more:
Sometimes we have to use our brains over The Rules. That is why we fly
experimentals. Safety over The Rules. The rules follow sooner or later
experimental wisdom.
***
Which case is more probable:
Every single Europa flight and any time of the flight you or your
passenger may open the door handle by accident, because of careless
manners, madness, illness, naivety, childishness or because she/he is a
child
or
if once in a lifetime happens an emergency on the ground or emergency
landing where you are still and well alive, still right side up but
cannot open the door and people (there are people!) outside are not able
to broke that thinniest plexiglass and the plane is burning and you will
die because of that door pip-pin a=C2=B4la me.
Make your choise.
Europa Aircraft have noticed that risk and in the BM they call the
builder to make a guard to prevent unintended door opening during the
flight. I went only a bit further and add also pip-pins. It was so easy
to imagine, that my sleeve pick-up the lever and soon the door is open,
separateing, hitting to the rudder/fin and almost killing them, air flow
is awful, co-pilot is screaming because she understand this is the
final, all the papers are flown away and an assymmetric drag is almost
impossible to handle, thinking same time shoud I open also the other
door to balance the plane and trying because of a strong drag to make an
emergency landing with full power. No =93 I did not want to
experience this and added pip-pins to both doors. Amen.
BTW in my POH /emergency situ list there is a line =9Cbefore
emergency landing take the door pip-pins out=9D. Happy now?
I used to take them away before every landing but refuced later because
understood it is a risk itself (to pull out the pip-pins during the
flight).
That would not be allowed on a certified aircraft.
Maybe so, but so what?
Typical certified planes are all metal and have small windows. If locked
when emergency, it is a difficult task to take bodies out. The doors are
also not easily openable during the flight (hinged fore). No reason to
lock or for pip-pins.
Our Europa is plastic, has large windows with thin and weak plexi
=93 easy to broke and take bodies out very fluently. I will not
try but I am almost sure a normal man can open the door the bolts
engaged by his hands only. If he has any tool or a stone he can do it
surely. What more important =93 those doors would love to open
during the flight! Pip-pin is for every-flight-safety!
***
I well remember =93 once I tried to open the door of our Cessna
during cruise flight. With full power I opened it and got a cap 200-300
mm, no more.
BTW =93 Cessna 172N 1982 POH: before departure lock the doors!
There was a nice elbow rest in the door but it was imposible to use it
without locking the door. And Cessna is certified machine I assume!
***
You are free to lose your doors during flight. I hope you are happy then
and think: =9C hey I am a pilot who follows the rules anyway
=9C. RIP =93 he followed strictly every possible rules to
the final end.
***
LAA says no no for in-glight locked doors. Obviously pip-pins in
Europa=C2=B4s door are criminal also if used them in-flight? You boys in
UK have semi-experimentals if you have to follow so stupid rules. Judge
yourself.
Same time you are allowed by LAA to use those very dangerous original
auto type safety belts? And because they are allowed you use them. No
matter dangerous or not.
And you are pushed to try VNE every year...can it be true?
In Finland and I assume in most countries you =93 the builder -
are also the designer, who make the orders to The POH. Like using
pip-pins or what so ever.
Pilot is a God in the plane with full responsibilitet =93 nothing
is over her /him. Not even LAA.
Now I am sure I am soon invited to any LAA happening to talk about
flight safety. Or instead of that maybe they will send some Spitfires to
hunt me if I ever dare to fly over Channnel (which is my long time
goal).
***
A little story from near history: during my Cessna time I use to have a
smooth hammer in the plane. My habit was to show it to all my new
passengers. I promised to knock their head if necessary. I said also
that is ok according The International Flight Rules. Not true but they
all believed and behavioured very well. I never hit anybody during the
flight, believe me. That is strictly illegal but you can be sure I would
have done it if necessary. Safety over The Rules...
I have nothing to say any more.
Cheers, Raimo Toivio (sometimes happily outlawed for a total safety)
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated Europa flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
Total flight time /landings: 872,45 /1423
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio@fly.to
www.rwm.fi
From: houlihan
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno.
Be advised that fitting a locking pin on the inside of the door could
impede access to someone attempting to get you out in an emergency if
you are unable to do it yourself, of course if its only your passenger
it may not matter too much !.
( the last comment is not meant to be taken seriously ! ! :<))
That would not be allowed on a certified aircraft.
Tim
On 4 February 2012 09:59, uvtreith <uvtreith@t-online.de> wrote:
Hi Raimo,
In fact, my first idea was to use the green LEDs as you suggest. LEDs on
= doors closed. But than I thought, better no lights on when system is
ok. But you are right; green lights will give you a safer feeling. In my
opinion, as the rear door bolts are critical, switches on the rear bolts
should be do it.
I have seen your pippins to secure the handles. I will do the same for
the passenger side.
Have a nice and safe flight time too.
All the best,
Bruno
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Raimo
Toivio
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 20:03
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno,
I elected to make a system which have two serial connected micro
switches per door. When they are BOTH IN I have a green led. When I have
two green leds I am pretty sure my doors are firmly closed.
Otherwice, they are open OR system is somehow broken. Two Greens = The
System is operational = The Doors are closed.
Maybe you would like to have red lights (when doors are open) instead of
greens or change MS=C2=B4s to be NO (normally open [when doors are
open]) as I have them.
I promise what more you see green lights when flying that happier you
will be (there are possibilities to have masses of green)! ;)
***
Notice also my extra safety: there is also a pip-pin to prevent an
unwanted inflight door opening.
Just my =C2=BD penny or how those englismen that says so gently and good
luck for you!
Raimo
Cheers, Raimo Toivio
Erreur ! Nom du fichier non sp=C3=A9cifi=C3=A9.
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio@fly.to
www.rwm.fi
From: uvtreith
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 6:51 PM
Subject: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Roland,
I would leave the door inside its door frame and would wait for warmer
days; maybe it will set by itself after a while.
The best protection for this is to built in an advice. I will install in
springtime two micro switches mounted on an aluminium plate together
with a common carriage bolt (Schlo=C3=9Fschraube).
Please see attached pictures (just made for you). You have to make one
mirror inverted (spiegelverkehrt). The switch-bolt arrangement weights
35 gramm each.
In my panel I have fitted two small green LED lights and the micro
switches are openers. When the door is correctly closed, the LED will go
out.
Best Regards,
Bruno
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Roland
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 12:32
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi all,
yesterday something embarrassing (and dangerous) happened to me. After
departure (already in 5000 ft) I noticed that the door on the
copilot-side was not locked on the rear side (I almost hear you saying:
"that cannot happen when you worked through the checklist prior take
off"). You are so right!
After the first shock (suddenly the appropriate passage of the POH came
crystal clear in my mind: "when the door springs open it will most
likely depart the aircraft") I asked my Co to pull the handle in front
and I did the same on the rear.
I was so lucky to land with my Europa as a whole!! When leaving the
aircraft my Co noticed a resistance when opening the door. It turned
out, that the frame on the top of the door seemed to be deformed in a
way that the gap between door and frame/roof became too small causing
this resistance approximately when half open (then the door frame
contacts the roof frame) . When complete open or closed everything seems
normal. The hinges and screws where it's mounted are apparently
undamaged.
Does anyone have a suggestion how to bring the door into a perfect fit
again?
Thanks for your input!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
Trigear XS
Rotax 914
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | f-8?Q?RE:_Europa-List:_Pip-pins_in_the?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa=C2=B4s_doors_-_more_safety_or?= |
=?utf-8?Q?_not=3F_=28earlier:_deformation_of_t?= =?utf-8?Q?he_canopy=29?
Raimo,
Do you talk about the flying metal wing on the picture? I saw it during
convention of home built planes in Blois but didn=99t met the guy
! Impressive indeed.
Laurent had a partner to help him and they spend together 2700 hours to
build F-PMLH over 28 months. Amazing, I don=99t when or even if he
was sleeping at night assuming he was at the same time manager of a
restaurant in Rueil Malmaison
For sure it wasn=99t intentional to leave the door during
take-off. And there is a couple of movies on OSS 117 who is a stupid
basic macho I hope I=99m not
Even with the two doors closed, I won=99t come (if I can make it)
in winter or cold weather.
Take care and have good flights.
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 9 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 12:07
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Re: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Max
Laurent have to be a real fast builder: KIT # 560 and completed 2003. I
have a KIT # 417 and completed 1999 =93 2007. I assume he build it
only a year or two?
***
I wrote =9CFrench James Bond =9C because I do not believe
original JB is not so brave he could separate by purpose Europa=C2=B4s
door during flight (like you did but one only). Now I know =93 he
will be OSS117. I assume you are OSS116.
***
Welcome to Finland =93 F-PMLH would be 2nd F-registered Europa in
EFTP (attachment).
If you are going to fly w/o doors, I recommend you to come when
midsummer...
Raimo
OH-XRT
FINLAND
do not archive
From: Max Cointe <mailto:mcointe@free.fr>
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 12:40 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Raimo,
Many thanks for your good wishes! Yes we like our small toy, but
it=99s not so new as we bought it when it had already ~300
hours It has been built by a good fellow named Laurent
Houssette and his first flight was in 2003!
James Bond was Brit, not French (OSS117 is French). I hope never have to
try the T-bar version (specially at 130 Kt) but if it happens, then
I=99ll do my best also to save me and my and I and the passenger
and the plane (typical British expression) J
Have good flight in your cold but wonderful country, I hope to go over
there sometime!
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 8 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 22:33
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Re: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Max,
great.
After your thrilling experience you are so cool, that you only
- removed the big buttons
and
- pay more attention!
What if you have next time 130 kts AND that happens because you have
earlier some other difficulties like your situational awareness has
almost gone (hasle in the cockpit)?
***
Impact on the tail =93 no damages at all?
***
JUST WONDER HOW MANY OF US HAS LOST OR HAS ALMOST LOST HIS DOOR DURING
FLIGHT???
During past years I have noticed several cases there and there. Most
will never publish them. How many extra doors Europa Aircraft have sold?
With simple electrics and more simple pip-pins that will never happen.
BTW =93 when the door is open and the safety belts are tight I
could not reach the door which is up until now, when my pip-pins have a
lanyard...
***
After reading your story I got an influence Europa is flyable without
doors as a convertible /like Corvette with T-bar-roof ?
Have anybody tried that (to remove both doors on the ground or inflight
like French James Bond)?
If safe that would be fun!
***
captain is the boss (not God as I=99m layman)
We too. I wrote =9CGod=9D to give an absolute & universal
meaning =9CThe Captain is The First of All in his /her
plane=9D.
As a layman we do not believe somebody is watching us. Or taking care.
Or nothing.
That is a principal reason for example for those funny pip-pins.
I have to do my best by myself to get a max safety. I try to be better.
***
Obviously you like your plane. Almost new and already 400 hrs.
I wish you a smooth engine sound over Massif Central,
Raimo (full of pip-pins now =93 good night)
OH-XRT
FINLAND
From: Max Cointe <mailto:mcointe@free.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Hi There All,
We experienced a door opening during the third take-off after we bought
F-PMLH! Did the copilot (also co-owner) shacked the handle by accident
with elbow, did the DLO7 went out before closing we=99ll never
know! But passing 500Ft over the forest close to the strip, we had a big
stress time when the door departed and got an impact somewhere back on
the tail BUT no stall, no asymmetric drag under full power on
climb, no more at 80-90 Kt on the circuit (we had to make a standard
pattern because of traffic on the field) before we landed without
trouble. As we are partisan of no-paper for flight (iPad including maps
and VACs + Garmin 296) no paper spread over (redundant paper maps are in
the luggage on the back). For sure it didn=99t happened at 130Kt
IAS (our current speed) nor at 8 500 Ft (altitude needed when flying
over Massif Central) but I guess that main danger remain the pilot
reaction and panic mode! We may have been lucky as the impact on the
tail did not affect rudder or direction, but believe it or not but this
incident gave us an BIG trust on qualities of flight of the plane! And a
VERY BIG motivation on executing the check list: verify the DLO7 before
jumping aboard (yes I can jump in because of gymnastic every morning),
verify doors closing front (easy) and rear (more difficult but doable
when alone may be also because gymnastic every morning) and / or teach
passenger or copilot to verify your side, is part of the check list and
done at each flight! (The only mod was to remove the big buttons on the
handles to avoid inattentive pull-up).
This is our experience, no a lesson and the captain is the boss (not God
as I=99m layman) in his plane when flying but I (and my co-owner)
will not add electric and mechanical complexity here, but certainly pay
more attention, say the same one I pay when I sign the approval after
executing the maintenance.
Good flights and blue sky as someone use to sign his messages.
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 7 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 23:16
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more safety
or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Tim, Bruno and all who care about flight safety
This is an old threat and I am bit agonizing. But once more:
Sometimes we have to use our brains over The Rules. That is why we fly
experimentals. Safety over The Rules. The rules follow sooner or later
experimental wisdom.
***
Which case is more probable:
Every single Europa flight and any time of the flight you or your
passenger may open the door handle by accident, because of careless
manners, madness, illness, naivety, childishness or because she/he is a
child
or
if once in a lifetime happens an emergency on the ground or emergency
landing where you are still and well alive, still right side up but
cannot open the door and people (there are people!) outside are not able
to broke that thinniest plexiglass and the plane is burning and you will
die because of that door pip-pin a=C2=B4la me.
Make your choise.
Europa Aircraft have noticed that risk and in the BM they call the
builder to make a guard to prevent unintended door opening during the
flight. I went only a bit further and add also pip-pins. It was so easy
to imagine, that my sleeve pick-up the lever and soon the door is open,
separateing, hitting to the rudder/fin and almost killing them, air flow
is awful, co-pilot is screaming because she understand this is the
final, all the papers are flown away and an assymmetric drag is almost
impossible to handle, thinking same time shoud I open also the other
door to balance the plane and trying because of a strong drag to make an
emergency landing with full power. No =93 I did not want to
experience this and added pip-pins to both doors. Amen.
BTW in my POH /emergency situ list there is a line =9Cbefore
emergency landing take the door pip-pins out=9D. Happy now?
I used to take them away before every landing but refuced later because
understood it is a risk itself (to pull out the pip-pins during the
flight).
That would not be allowed on a certified aircraft.
Maybe so, but so what?
Typical certified planes are all metal and have small windows. If locked
when emergency, it is a difficult task to take bodies out. The doors are
also not easily openable during the flight (hinged fore). No reason to
lock or for pip-pins.
Our Europa is plastic, has large windows with thin and weak plexi
=93 easy to broke and take bodies out very fluently. I will not
try but I am almost sure a normal man can open the door the bolts
engaged by his hands only. If he has any tool or a stone he can do it
surely. What more important =93 those doors would love to open
during the flight! Pip-pin is for every-flight-safety!
***
I well remember =93 once I tried to open the door of our Cessna
during cruise flight. With full power I opened it and got a cap 200-300
mm, no more.
BTW =93 Cessna 172N 1982 POH: before departure lock the doors!
There was a nice elbow rest in the door but it was imposible to use it
without locking the door. And Cessna is certified machine I assume!
***
You are free to lose your doors during flight. I hope you are happy then
and think: =9C hey I am a pilot who follows the rules anyway
=9C. RIP =93 he followed strictly every possible rules to
the final end.
***
LAA says no no for in-glight locked doors. Obviously pip-pins in
Europa=C2=B4s door are criminal also if used them in-flight? You boys in
UK have semi-experimentals if you have to follow so stupid rules. Judge
yourself.
Same time you are allowed by LAA to use those very dangerous original
auto type safety belts? And because they are allowed you use them. No
matter dangerous or not.
And you are pushed to try VNE every year...can it be true?
In Finland and I assume in most countries you =93 the builder -
are also the designer, who make the orders to The POH. Like using
pip-pins or what so ever.
Pilot is a God in the plane with full responsibilitet =93 nothing
is over her /him. Not even LAA.
Now I am sure I am soon invited to any LAA happening to talk about
flight safety. Or instead of that maybe they will send some Spitfires to
hunt me if I ever dare to fly over Channnel (which is my long time
goal).
***
A little story from near history: during my Cessna time I use to have a
smooth hammer in the plane. My habit was to show it to all my new
passengers. I promised to knock their head if necessary. I said also
that is ok according The International Flight Rules. Not true but they
all believed and behavioured very well. I never hit anybody during the
flight, believe me. That is strictly illegal but you can be sure I would
have done it if necessary. Safety over The Rules...
I have nothing to say any more.
Cheers, Raimo Toivio (sometimes happily outlawed for a total safety)
Europa A2A-ala2OK
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated Europa flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
Total flight time /landings: 872,45 /1423
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
<mailto:toivio@fly.to> toivio@fly.to
<http://www.rwm.fi/> www.rwm.fi
From: houlihan <mailto:houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno.
Be advised that fitting a locking pin on the inside of the door could
impede access to someone attempting to get you out in an emergency if
you are unable to do it yourself, of course if its only your passenger
it may not matter too much !.
( the last comment is not meant to be taken seriously ! ! :<))
That would not be allowed on a certified aircraft.
Tim
On 4 February 2012 09:59, uvtreith <uvtreith@t-online.de> wrote:
Hi Raimo,
In fact, my first idea was to use the green LEDs as you suggest. LEDs on
= doors closed. But than I thought, better no lights on when system is
ok. But you are right; green lights will give you a safer feeling. In my
opinion, as the rear door bolts are critical, switches on the rear bolts
should be do it.
I have seen your pippins to secure the handles. I will do the same for
the passenger side.
Have a nice and safe flight time too.
All the best,
Bruno
_____
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Raimo
Toivio
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 20:03
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno,
I elected to make a system which have two serial connected micro
switches per door. When they are BOTH IN I have a green led. When I have
two green leds I am pretty sure my doors are firmly closed.
Otherwice, they are open OR system is somehow broken. Two Greens = The
System is operational = The Doors are closed.
Maybe you would like to have red lights (when doors are open) instead of
greens or change MS=C2=B4s to be NO (normally open [when doors are
open]) as I have them.
I promise what more you see green lights when flying that happier you
will be (there are possibilities to have masses of green)! ;)
***
Notice also my extra safety: there is also a pip-pin to prevent an
unwanted inflight door opening.
Just my =C2=BD penny or how those englismen that says so gently and good
luck for you!
Raimo
Cheers, Raimo Toivio
Erreur ! Nom du fichier non sp=C3=A9cifi=C3=A9.
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
<mailto:toivio@fly.to> toivio@fly.to
<http://www.rwm.fi/> www.rwm.fi
From: uvtreith <mailto:uvtreith@t-online.de>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 6:51 PM
Subject: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Roland,
I would leave the door inside its door frame and would wait for warmer
days; maybe it will set by itself after a while.
The best protection for this is to built in an advice. I will install in
springtime two micro switches mounted on an aluminium plate together
with a common carriage bolt (Schlo=C3=9Fschraube).
Please see attached pictures (just made for you). You have to make one
mirror inverted (spiegelverkehrt). The switch-bolt arrangement weights
35 gramm each.
In my panel I have fitted two small green LED lights and the micro
switches are openers. When the door is correctly closed, the LED will go
out.
Best Regards,
Bruno
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Roland
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 12:32
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi all,
yesterday something embarrassing (and dangerous) happened to me. After
departure (already in 5000 ft) I noticed that the door on the
copilot-side was not locked on the rear side (I almost hear you saying:
"that cannot happen when you worked through the checklist prior take
off"). You are so right!
After the first shock (suddenly the appropriate passage of the POH came
crystal clear in my mind: "when the door springs open it will most
likely depart the aircraft") I asked my Co to pull the handle in front
and I did the same on the rear.
I was so lucky to land with my Europa as a whole!! When leaving the
aircraft my Co noticed a resistance when opening the door. It turned
out, that the frame on the top of the door seemed to be deformed in a
way that the gap between door and frame/roof became too small causing
this resistance approximately when half open (then the door frame
contacts the roof frame) . When complete open or closed everything seems
normal. The hinges and screws where it's mounted are apparently
undamaged.
Does anyone have a suggestion how to bring the door into a perfect fit
again?
Thanks for your input!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
Trigear XS
Rotax 914
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| Subject: | Re: f-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Pip-pins_in_the?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa=C2=B4s_doors_-_more_safety_or?= |
=?utf-8?Q?_not=3F_=28earlier:_deformation_of_t?= =?utf-8?Q?he_canopy=29?
Max
I do.
It is F-PDHV. A man who is looking a minor problem in the nose gear is
the designer /builder /pilot Bart Verhees.
With a small Subaru engine it cruises 160 mph = 140 kts = good
company for Europas.
First time ever I saw a situation the men from tower came out and wanted
to take pics about a flying machine.
When seeing airborne, nothing is nearer an UFO than this one.
http://www.verheesengineering.com/pix/delta001.jpg
Other man is Mr. Karel Vranken, Europa F-PKRL builder /pilot.
***
I do not know a real reason but everybody wants to visit us. So we get
some air traffic here and see many IFOs (interesting flying objects)
like this Delta, Europas, AN-2, DC-3, Rotorway Exec, Lancairs, countless
amounts of seaplanes, skiplanes and amfibios=C2=B4s. The sugar on the
bottom is so far Casa C-295 15th of August 2010.
Raimo
OH-XRT
FINLAND
do not archive
From: Max Cointe
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Raimo,
Do you talk about the flying metal wing on the picture? I saw it during
convention of home built planes in Blois but didn=99t met the guy
! Impressive indeed.
Laurent had a partner to help him and they spend together 2700 hours to
build F-PMLH over 28 months. Amazing, I don=99t when or even if he
was sleeping at night assuming he was at the same time manager of a
restaurant in Rueil Malmaison
For sure it wasn=99t intentional to leave the door during
take-off. And there is a couple of movies on OSS 117 who is a stupid
basic macho I hope I=99m not
Even with the two doors closed, I won=99t come (if I can make it)
in winter or cold weather.
Take care and have good flights.
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 9 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 12:07
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Re: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Max
Laurent have to be a real fast builder: KIT # 560 and completed 2003. I
have a KIT # 417 and completed 1999 =93 2007. I assume he build it
only a year or two?
***
I wrote =9CFrench James Bond =9C because I do not believe
original JB is not so brave he could separate by purpose Europa=C2=B4s
door during flight (like you did but one only). Now I know =93 he
will be OSS117. I assume you are OSS116.
***
Welcome to Finland =93 F-PMLH would be 2nd F-registered Europa in
EFTP (attachment).
If you are going to fly w/o doors, I recommend you to come when
midsummer...
Raimo
OH-XRT
FINLAND
do not archive
From: Max Cointe
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 12:40 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Raimo,
Many thanks for your good wishes! Yes we like our small toy, but
it=99s not so new as we bought it when it had already ~300
hours It has been built by a good fellow named Laurent
Houssette and his first flight was in 2003!
James Bond was Brit, not French (OSS117 is French). I hope never have to
try the T-bar version (specially at 130 Kt) but if it happens, then
I=99ll do my best also to save me and my and I and the passenger
and the plane (typical British expression) J
Have good flight in your cold but wonderful country, I hope to go over
there sometime!
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 8 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 22:33
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Re: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Max,
great.
After your thrilling experience you are so cool, that you only
- removed the big buttons
and
- pay more attention!
What if you have next time 130 kts AND that happens because you have
earlier some other difficulties like your situational awareness has
almost gone (hasle in the cockpit)?
***
Impact on the tail =93 no damages at all?
***
JUST WONDER HOW MANY OF US HAS LOST OR HAS ALMOST LOST HIS DOOR DURING
FLIGHT???
During past years I have noticed several cases there and there. Most
will never publish them. How many extra doors Europa Aircraft have sold?
With simple electrics and more simple pip-pins that will never happen.
BTW =93 when the door is open and the safety belts are tight I
could not reach the door which is up until now, when my pip-pins have a
lanyard...
***
After reading your story I got an influence Europa is flyable without
doors as a convertible /like Corvette with T-bar-roof ?
Have anybody tried that (to remove both doors on the ground or inflight
like French James Bond)?
If safe that would be fun!
***
captain is the boss (not God as I=99m layman)
We too. I wrote =9CGod=9D to give an absolute & universal
meaning =9CThe Captain is The First of All in his /her
plane=9D.
As a layman we do not believe somebody is watching us. Or taking care.
Or nothing.
That is a principal reason for example for those funny pip-pins.
I have to do my best by myself to get a max safety. I try to be better.
***
Obviously you like your plane. Almost new and already 400 hrs.
I wish you a smooth engine sound over Massif Central,
Raimo (full of pip-pins now =93 good night)
OH-XRT
FINLAND
From: Max Cointe
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Hi There All,
We experienced a door opening during the third take-off after we bought
F-PMLH! Did the copilot (also co-owner) shacked the handle by accident
with elbow, did the DLO7 went out before closing we=99ll never
know! But passing 500Ft over the forest close to the strip, we had a big
stress time when the door departed and got an impact somewhere back on
the tail BUT no stall, no asymmetric drag under full power on
climb, no more at 80-90 Kt on the circuit (we had to make a standard
pattern because of traffic on the field) before we landed without
trouble. As we are partisan of no-paper for flight (iPad including maps
and VACs + Garmin 296) no paper spread over (redundant paper maps are in
the luggage on the back). For sure it didn=99t happened at 130Kt
IAS (our current speed) nor at 8 500 Ft (altitude needed when flying
over Massif Central) but I guess that main danger remain the pilot
reaction and panic mode! We may have been lucky as the impact on the
tail did not affect rudder or direction, but believe it or not but this
incident gave us an BIG trust on qualities of flight of the plane! And a
VERY BIG motivation on executing the check list: verify the DLO7 before
jumping aboard (yes I can jump in because of gymnastic every morning),
verify doors closing front (easy) and rear (more difficult but doable
when alone may be also because gymnastic every morning) and / or teach
passenger or copilot to verify your side, is part of the check list and
done at each flight! (The only mod was to remove the big buttons on the
handles to avoid inattentive pull-up).
This is our experience, no a lesson and the captain is the boss (not God
as I=99m layman) in his plane when flying but I (and my co-owner)
will not add electric and mechanical complexity here, but certainly pay
more attention, say the same one I pay when I sign the approval after
executing the maintenance.
Good flights and blue sky as someone use to sign his messages.
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 7 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 23:16
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more safety
or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Tim, Bruno and all who care about flight safety
This is an old threat and I am bit agonizing. But once more:
Sometimes we have to use our brains over The Rules. That is why we fly
experimentals. Safety over The Rules. The rules follow sooner or later
experimental wisdom.
***
Which case is more probable:
Every single Europa flight and any time of the flight you or your
passenger may open the door handle by accident, because of careless
manners, madness, illness, naivety, childishness or because she/he is a
child
or
if once in a lifetime happens an emergency on the ground or emergency
landing where you are still and well alive, still right side up but
cannot open the door and people (there are people!) outside are not able
to broke that thinniest plexiglass and the plane is burning and you will
die because of that door pip-pin a=C2=B4la me.
Make your choise.
Europa Aircraft have noticed that risk and in the BM they call the
builder to make a guard to prevent unintended door opening during the
flight. I went only a bit further and add also pip-pins. It was so easy
to imagine, that my sleeve pick-up the lever and soon the door is open,
separateing, hitting to the rudder/fin and almost killing them, air flow
is awful, co-pilot is screaming because she understand this is the
final, all the papers are flown away and an assymmetric drag is almost
impossible to handle, thinking same time shoud I open also the other
door to balance the plane and trying because of a strong drag to make an
emergency landing with full power. No =93 I did not want to
experience this and added pip-pins to both doors. Amen.
BTW in my POH /emergency situ list there is a line =9Cbefore
emergency landing take the door pip-pins out=9D. Happy now?
I used to take them away before every landing but refuced later because
understood it is a risk itself (to pull out the pip-pins during the
flight).
That would not be allowed on a certified aircraft.
Maybe so, but so what?
Typical certified planes are all metal and have small windows. If locked
when emergency, it is a difficult task to take bodies out. The doors are
also not easily openable during the flight (hinged fore). No reason to
lock or for pip-pins.
Our Europa is plastic, has large windows with thin and weak plexi
=93 easy to broke and take bodies out very fluently. I will not
try but I am almost sure a normal man can open the door the bolts
engaged by his hands only. If he has any tool or a stone he can do it
surely. What more important =93 those doors would love to open
during the flight! Pip-pin is for every-flight-safety!
***
I well remember =93 once I tried to open the door of our Cessna
during cruise flight. With full power I opened it and got a cap 200-300
mm, no more.
BTW =93 Cessna 172N 1982 POH: before departure lock the doors!
There was a nice elbow rest in the door but it was imposible to use it
without locking the door. And Cessna is certified machine I assume!
***
You are free to lose your doors during flight. I hope you are happy then
and think: =9C hey I am a pilot who follows the rules anyway
=9C. RIP =93 he followed strictly every possible rules to
the final end.
***
LAA says no no for in-glight locked doors. Obviously pip-pins in
Europa=C2=B4s door are criminal also if used them in-flight? You boys in
UK have semi-experimentals if you have to follow so stupid rules. Judge
yourself.
Same time you are allowed by LAA to use those very dangerous original
auto type safety belts? And because they are allowed you use them. No
matter dangerous or not.
And you are pushed to try VNE every year...can it be true?
In Finland and I assume in most countries you =93 the builder -
are also the designer, who make the orders to The POH. Like using
pip-pins or what so ever.
Pilot is a God in the plane with full responsibilitet =93 nothing
is over her /him. Not even LAA.
Now I am sure I am soon invited to any LAA happening to talk about
flight safety. Or instead of that maybe they will send some Spitfires to
hunt me if I ever dare to fly over Channnel (which is my long time
goal).
***
A little story from near history: during my Cessna time I use to have a
smooth hammer in the plane. My habit was to show it to all my new
passengers. I promised to knock their head if necessary. I said also
that is ok according The International Flight Rules. Not true but they
all believed and behavioured very well. I never hit anybody during the
flight, believe me. That is strictly illegal but you can be sure I would
have done it if necessary. Safety over The Rules...
I have nothing to say any more.
Cheers, Raimo Toivio (sometimes happily outlawed for a total safety)
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated Europa flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
Total flight time /landings: 872,45 /1423
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio@fly.to
www.rwm.fi
From: houlihan
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno.
Be advised that fitting a locking pin on the inside of the door could
impede access to someone attempting to get you out in an emergency if
you are unable to do it yourself, of course if its only your passenger
it may not matter too much !.
( the last comment is not meant to be taken seriously ! ! :<))
That would not be allowed on a certified aircraft.
Tim
On 4 February 2012 09:59, uvtreith <uvtreith@t-online.de> wrote:
Hi Raimo,
In fact, my first idea was to use the green LEDs as you suggest. LEDs on
= doors closed. But than I thought, better no lights on when system is
ok. But you are right; green lights will give you a safer feeling. In my
opinion, as the rear door bolts are critical, switches on the rear bolts
should be do it.
I have seen your pippins to secure the handles. I will do the same for
the passenger side.
Have a nice and safe flight time too.
All the best,
Bruno
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Raimo
Toivio
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 20:03
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno,
I elected to make a system which have two serial connected micro
switches per door. When they are BOTH IN I have a green led. When I have
two green leds I am pretty sure my doors are firmly closed.
Otherwice, they are open OR system is somehow broken. Two Greens = The
System is operational = The Doors are closed.
Maybe you would like to have red lights (when doors are open) instead of
greens or change MS=C2=B4s to be NO (normally open [when doors are
open]) as I have them.
I promise what more you see green lights when flying that happier you
will be (there are possibilities to have masses of green)! ;)
***
Notice also my extra safety: there is also a pip-pin to prevent an
unwanted inflight door opening.
Just my =C2=BD penny or how those englismen that says so gently and good
luck for you!
Raimo
Cheers, Raimo Toivio
Erreur ! Nom du fichier non sp=C3=A9cifi=C3=A9.
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio@fly.to
www.rwm.fi
From: uvtreith
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 6:51 PM
Subject: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Roland,
I would leave the door inside its door frame and would wait for warmer
days; maybe it will set by itself after a while.
The best protection for this is to built in an advice. I will install in
springtime two micro switches mounted on an aluminium plate together
with a common carriage bolt (Schlo=C3=9Fschraube).
Please see attached pictures (just made for you). You have to make one
mirror inverted (spiegelverkehrt). The switch-bolt arrangement weights
35 gramm each.
In my panel I have fitted two small green LED lights and the micro
switches are openers. When the door is correctly closed, the LED will go
out.
Best Regards,
Bruno
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Roland
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 12:32
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi all,
yesterday something embarrassing (and dangerous) happened to me. After
departure (already in 5000 ft) I noticed that the door on the
copilot-side was not locked on the rear side (I almost hear you saying:
"that cannot happen when you worked through the checklist prior take
off"). You are so right!
After the first shock (suddenly the appropriate passage of the POH came
crystal clear in my mind: "when the door springs open it will most
likely depart the aircraft") I asked my Co to pull the handle in front
and I did the same on the rear.
I was so lucky to land with my Europa as a whole!! When leaving the
aircraft my Co noticed a resistance when opening the door. It turned
out, that the frame on the top of the door seemed to be deformed in a
way that the gap between door and frame/roof became too small causing
this resistance approximately when half open (then the door frame
contacts the roof frame) . When complete open or closed everything seems
normal. The hinges and screws where it's mounted are apparently
undamaged.
Does anyone have a suggestion how to bring the door into a perfect fit
again?
Thanks for your input!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
Trigear XS
Rotax 914
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365518#365518
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| Subject: | Re: f-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Pip-pins_in_the?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa=C2=B4s_doors_-_more_safety_or?= |
=?utf-8?Q?_not=3F_=28earlier:_deformation_of_t?= =?utf-8?Q?he_canopy=29?
All
one more and my final statement to this topic:
I checked the statistics and found we only in this very smallest
aviation country have had at least two fatal accidents during last few
years because of suddenly and unintentionally canopy opening. So that is
a serious thing, is not it?
1) Colibri MB-2 OH-U373, several minutes (10) after take-off, one fatal.
Reason: the canopy closing mechanism was not properly locked (!)
2) EV-97 Eurostar OH-U430, couple of minutes after take-off, 2 fatals:
Reason: the canopy closing mechanism could not keep the canopy closed
when there was a medium turbulent weather. There was not a real lock,
just a spring like we have in Europa (!). Eurostar had made a mandatory
modification, but it was not installed yet to this plane unfortunately.
OK, Max has told us it can be when flying Europa just a refreshing
experience. But there is no quarantee for that ! I assume also buying
components, building, painting and assembling a new door is not a target
or a joy for anybody during a flying season.
I bet it is difficult or impossible to find ANY accident, where fatal(s)
have occurred because canopy has been secured and it was not openable by
outsiders until too late. Canopy /door securing does not mean it is an
unopenable safe deposit room or box!
I know also people who ever never use safety belts in their cars. They
are sure they will be drowned when they some day decide to drive direct
to the nearest river or lake and a car is there upsidedown, of course.
Raimo Toivio
OH-XRT
FINLAND
do archive!
From: Max Cointe
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Raimo,
Do you talk about the flying metal wing on the picture? I saw it during
convention of home built planes in Blois but didn=99t met the guy
! Impressive indeed.
Laurent had a partner to help him and they spend together 2700 hours to
build F-PMLH over 28 months. Amazing, I don=99t when or even if he
was sleeping at night assuming he was at the same time manager of a
restaurant in Rueil Malmaison
For sure it wasn=99t intentional to leave the door during
take-off. And there is a couple of movies on OSS 117 who is a stupid
basic macho I hope I=99m not
Even with the two doors closed, I won=99t come (if I can make it)
in winter or cold weather.
Take care and have good flights.
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 9 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 12:07
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Re: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Max
Laurent have to be a real fast builder: KIT # 560 and completed 2003. I
have a KIT # 417 and completed 1999 =93 2007. I assume he build it
only a year or two?
***
I wrote =9CFrench James Bond =9C because I do not believe
original JB is not so brave he could separate by purpose Europa=C2=B4s
door during flight (like you did but one only). Now I know =93 he
will be OSS117. I assume you are OSS116.
***
Welcome to Finland =93 F-PMLH would be 2nd F-registered Europa in
EFTP (attachment).
If you are going to fly w/o doors, I recommend you to come when
midsummer...
Raimo
OH-XRT
FINLAND
do not archive
From: Max Cointe
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 12:40 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Raimo,
Many thanks for your good wishes! Yes we like our small toy, but
it=99s not so new as we bought it when it had already ~300
hours It has been built by a good fellow named Laurent
Houssette and his first flight was in 2003!
James Bond was Brit, not French (OSS117 is French). I hope never have to
try the T-bar version (specially at 130 Kt) but if it happens, then
I=99ll do my best also to save me and my and I and the passenger
and the plane (typical British expression) J
Have good flight in your cold but wonderful country, I hope to go over
there sometime!
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 8 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 22:33
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Re: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Max,
great.
After your thrilling experience you are so cool, that you only
- removed the big buttons
and
- pay more attention!
What if you have next time 130 kts AND that happens because you have
earlier some other difficulties like your situational awareness has
almost gone (hasle in the cockpit)?
***
Impact on the tail =93 no damages at all?
***
JUST WONDER HOW MANY OF US HAS LOST OR HAS ALMOST LOST HIS DOOR DURING
FLIGHT???
During past years I have noticed several cases there and there. Most
will never publish them. How many extra doors Europa Aircraft have sold?
With simple electrics and more simple pip-pins that will never happen.
BTW =93 when the door is open and the safety belts are tight I
could not reach the door which is up until now, when my pip-pins have a
lanyard...
***
After reading your story I got an influence Europa is flyable without
doors as a convertible /like Corvette with T-bar-roof ?
Have anybody tried that (to remove both doors on the ground or inflight
like French James Bond)?
If safe that would be fun!
***
captain is the boss (not God as I=99m layman)
We too. I wrote =9CGod=9D to give an absolute & universal
meaning =9CThe Captain is The First of All in his /her
plane=9D.
As a layman we do not believe somebody is watching us. Or taking care.
Or nothing.
That is a principal reason for example for those funny pip-pins.
I have to do my best by myself to get a max safety. I try to be better.
***
Obviously you like your plane. Almost new and already 400 hrs.
I wish you a smooth engine sound over Massif Central,
Raimo (full of pip-pins now =93 good night)
OH-XRT
FINLAND
From: Max Cointe
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more
safety or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Hi There All,
We experienced a door opening during the third take-off after we bought
F-PMLH! Did the copilot (also co-owner) shacked the handle by accident
with elbow, did the DLO7 went out before closing we=99ll never
know! But passing 500Ft over the forest close to the strip, we had a big
stress time when the door departed and got an impact somewhere back on
the tail BUT no stall, no asymmetric drag under full power on
climb, no more at 80-90 Kt on the circuit (we had to make a standard
pattern because of traffic on the field) before we landed without
trouble. As we are partisan of no-paper for flight (iPad including maps
and VACs + Garmin 296) no paper spread over (redundant paper maps are in
the luggage on the back). For sure it didn=99t happened at 130Kt
IAS (our current speed) nor at 8 500 Ft (altitude needed when flying
over Massif Central) but I guess that main danger remain the pilot
reaction and panic mode! We may have been lucky as the impact on the
tail did not affect rudder or direction, but believe it or not but this
incident gave us an BIG trust on qualities of flight of the plane! And a
VERY BIG motivation on executing the check list: verify the DLO7 before
jumping aboard (yes I can jump in because of gymnastic every morning),
verify doors closing front (easy) and rear (more difficult but doable
when alone may be also because gymnastic every morning) and / or teach
passenger or copilot to verify your side, is part of the check list and
done at each flight! (The only mod was to remove the big buttons on the
handles to avoid inattentive pull-up).
This is our experience, no a lesson and the captain is the boss (not God
as I=99m layman) in his plane when flying but I (and my co-owner)
will not add electric and mechanical complexity here, but certainly pay
more attention, say the same one I pay when I sign the approval after
executing the maintenance.
Good flights and blue sky as someone use to sign his messages.
Max Cointe
F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560
912ULS Airmaster 400 hours
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Raimo
Toivio
Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 7 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 23:16
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Pip-pins in the Europa=C2=B4s doors - more safety
or not? (earlier: deformation of the canopy)
Tim, Bruno and all who care about flight safety
This is an old threat and I am bit agonizing. But once more:
Sometimes we have to use our brains over The Rules. That is why we fly
experimentals. Safety over The Rules. The rules follow sooner or later
experimental wisdom.
***
Which case is more probable:
Every single Europa flight and any time of the flight you or your
passenger may open the door handle by accident, because of careless
manners, madness, illness, naivety, childishness or because she/he is a
child
or
if once in a lifetime happens an emergency on the ground or emergency
landing where you are still and well alive, still right side up but
cannot open the door and people (there are people!) outside are not able
to broke that thinniest plexiglass and the plane is burning and you will
die because of that door pip-pin a=C2=B4la me.
Make your choise.
Europa Aircraft have noticed that risk and in the BM they call the
builder to make a guard to prevent unintended door opening during the
flight. I went only a bit further and add also pip-pins. It was so easy
to imagine, that my sleeve pick-up the lever and soon the door is open,
separateing, hitting to the rudder/fin and almost killing them, air flow
is awful, co-pilot is screaming because she understand this is the
final, all the papers are flown away and an assymmetric drag is almost
impossible to handle, thinking same time shoud I open also the other
door to balance the plane and trying because of a strong drag to make an
emergency landing with full power. No =93 I did not want to
experience this and added pip-pins to both doors. Amen.
BTW in my POH /emergency situ list there is a line =9Cbefore
emergency landing take the door pip-pins out=9D. Happy now?
I used to take them away before every landing but refuced later because
understood it is a risk itself (to pull out the pip-pins during the
flight).
That would not be allowed on a certified aircraft.
Maybe so, but so what?
Typical certified planes are all metal and have small windows. If locked
when emergency, it is a difficult task to take bodies out. The doors are
also not easily openable during the flight (hinged fore). No reason to
lock or for pip-pins.
Our Europa is plastic, has large windows with thin and weak plexi
=93 easy to broke and take bodies out very fluently. I will not
try but I am almost sure a normal man can open the door the bolts
engaged by his hands only. If he has any tool or a stone he can do it
surely. What more important =93 those doors would love to open
during the flight! Pip-pin is for every-flight-safety!
***
I well remember =93 once I tried to open the door of our Cessna
during cruise flight. With full power I opened it and got a cap 200-300
mm, no more.
BTW =93 Cessna 172N 1982 POH: before departure lock the doors!
There was a nice elbow rest in the door but it was imposible to use it
without locking the door. And Cessna is certified machine I assume!
***
You are free to lose your doors during flight. I hope you are happy then
and think: =9C hey I am a pilot who follows the rules anyway
=9C. RIP =93 he followed strictly every possible rules to
the final end.
***
LAA says no no for in-glight locked doors. Obviously pip-pins in
Europa=C2=B4s door are criminal also if used them in-flight? You boys in
UK have semi-experimentals if you have to follow so stupid rules. Judge
yourself.
Same time you are allowed by LAA to use those very dangerous original
auto type safety belts? And because they are allowed you use them. No
matter dangerous or not.
And you are pushed to try VNE every year...can it be true?
In Finland and I assume in most countries you =93 the builder -
are also the designer, who make the orders to The POH. Like using
pip-pins or what so ever.
Pilot is a God in the plane with full responsibilitet =93 nothing
is over her /him. Not even LAA.
Now I am sure I am soon invited to any LAA happening to talk about
flight safety. Or instead of that maybe they will send some Spitfires to
hunt me if I ever dare to fly over Channnel (which is my long time
goal).
***
A little story from near history: during my Cessna time I use to have a
smooth hammer in the plane. My habit was to show it to all my new
passengers. I promised to knock their head if necessary. I said also
that is ok according The International Flight Rules. Not true but they
all believed and behavioured very well. I never hit anybody during the
flight, believe me. That is strictly illegal but you can be sure I would
have done it if necessary. Safety over The Rules...
I have nothing to say any more.
Cheers, Raimo Toivio (sometimes happily outlawed for a total safety)
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated Europa flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
Total flight time /landings: 872,45 /1423
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio@fly.to
www.rwm.fi
From: houlihan
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno.
Be advised that fitting a locking pin on the inside of the door could
impede access to someone attempting to get you out in an emergency if
you are unable to do it yourself, of course if its only your passenger
it may not matter too much !.
( the last comment is not meant to be taken seriously ! ! :<))
That would not be allowed on a certified aircraft.
Tim
On 4 February 2012 09:59, uvtreith <uvtreith@t-online.de> wrote:
Hi Raimo,
In fact, my first idea was to use the green LEDs as you suggest. LEDs on
= doors closed. But than I thought, better no lights on when system is
ok. But you are right; green lights will give you a safer feeling. In my
opinion, as the rear door bolts are critical, switches on the rear bolts
should be do it.
I have seen your pippins to secure the handles. I will do the same for
the passenger side.
Have a nice and safe flight time too.
All the best,
Bruno
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Raimo
Toivio
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 20:03
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Bruno,
I elected to make a system which have two serial connected micro
switches per door. When they are BOTH IN I have a green led. When I have
two green leds I am pretty sure my doors are firmly closed.
Otherwice, they are open OR system is somehow broken. Two Greens = The
System is operational = The Doors are closed.
Maybe you would like to have red lights (when doors are open) instead of
greens or change MS=C2=B4s to be NO (normally open [when doors are
open]) as I have them.
I promise what more you see green lights when flying that happier you
will be (there are possibilities to have masses of green)! ;)
***
Notice also my extra safety: there is also a pip-pin to prevent an
unwanted inflight door opening.
Just my =C2=BD penny or how those englismen that says so gently and good
luck for you!
Raimo
Cheers, Raimo Toivio
Erreur ! Nom du fichier non sp=C3=A9cifi=C3=A9.
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio@fly.to
www.rwm.fi
From: uvtreith
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 6:51 PM
Subject: AW: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi Roland,
I would leave the door inside its door frame and would wait for warmer
days; maybe it will set by itself after a while.
The best protection for this is to built in an advice. I will install in
springtime two micro switches mounted on an aluminium plate together
with a common carriage bolt (Schlo=C3=9Fschraube).
Please see attached pictures (just made for you). You have to make one
mirror inverted (spiegelverkehrt). The switch-bolt arrangement weights
35 gramm each.
In my panel I have fitted two small green LED lights and the micro
switches are openers. When the door is correctly closed, the LED will go
out.
Best Regards,
Bruno
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Roland
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Februar 2012 12:32
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Europa-List: Deformation of canopy
Hi all,
yesterday something embarrassing (and dangerous) happened to me. After
departure (already in 5000 ft) I noticed that the door on the
copilot-side was not locked on the rear side (I almost hear you saying:
"that cannot happen when you worked through the checklist prior take
off"). You are so right!
After the first shock (suddenly the appropriate passage of the POH came
crystal clear in my mind: "when the door springs open it will most
likely depart the aircraft") I asked my Co to pull the handle in front
and I did the same on the rear.
I was so lucky to land with my Europa as a whole!! When leaving the
aircraft my Co noticed a resistance when opening the door. It turned
out, that the frame on the top of the door seemed to be deformed in a
way that the gap between door and frame/roof became too small causing
this resistance approximately when half open (then the door frame
contacts the roof frame) . When complete open or closed everything seems
normal. The hinges and screws where it's mounted are apparently
undamaged.
Does anyone have a suggestion how to bring the door into a perfect fit
again?
Thanks for your input!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
Trigear XS
Rotax 914
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