---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/26/12: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:46 AM - Re: Re Aussie builders (Lance Sandford) 2. 03:58 AM - Re: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant (Frans Veldman) 3. 04:08 AM - post curing (William Daniell) 4. 05:38 AM - Re: post curing (Robert Borger) 5. 11:47 AM - Re: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant (Bud Yerly) 6. 12:41 PM - interior trim (Paul & Vanessa Munford) 7. 01:38 PM - Re: interior trim (G-IANI) 8. 01:39 PM - Re: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant (Frans Veldman) 9. 04:00 PM - Re: post curing (K BURNS) 10. 09:59 PM - Re: post curing (keith hickling) 11. 10:54 PM - Re: interior trim (Richard Wheelwright) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:46:57 AM PST US From: Lance Sandford Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re Aussie builders Replied off Forum. Lance Sandford On 26/02/12 15:20, laurie wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: laurie > > Dear all > Iam building a Europa in Australia pretty much on my own and am keen to make contact with other builders .I live in Victoria more specifically at Hamilton anyone around please make contact > > Laurie Ryan > > Sent from my iPad > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:09 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant Hi Bud, > I have used the Evans in a stock trigear and have found my CHTs were > about 15 degrees cooler with the glycol. Then that trigear was suffering from micro-boiling with the previour coolant, otherwise it is quite impossible. The heat transfer rate of Evans is lower than that of water based glycol, no way it can improve over that. The *only* difference with Evans is the much higher boiling point. This eliminates micro boiling and it allows you to operate the engine at a *higher* temperature (also according to Rotax). So far the concensus on this forum has been that the CHT's get hotter when using Evans, forcing quite some people with a marginal cooling setup to revert back to 50/50. > I cannot imagine that the Evans would be too thick for the Laminova heat > exchanger as the coolant is basically the same viscosity of the Ethylene > glycol. Pure ethylene glycol is too thick as well, but you are supposed to mix it with water. Maybe I'm living in a colder climate. On te Evans network I found in their FAQ a description of exact this problem "some engines overheat immediately following a cold start due to the lower viscosity of cold Evans coolant". They offer modified coolant pumps, thermostats, etc. And they have a new type of coolant designed for motorcycles with improved viscosity so it flows better through fine radiators. > I hope not to insult you, but there are three or four types of Evans > coolants. I know. There are even more. I have tested the factory recommended NPG+. But now there appear to be two versions of this NPG+. Read on: > To my > knowledge, there is no viscosity difference with any of them and all > should work with the Rotax and Liminova. Yes there are differences, to address exactly this problem. I found a table somewhere but their website is a mess, I have to search for it again. Take for example their NPG-R: On one of their websites: "NPG-R NPG-R is specifically formulated to handle the extreme conditions of racing and high performance automotive, marine and motorcycle applications. *The reduced viscosity of NPG-R makes it more compatible with small tube copper-brass radiators* while providing the superior cooling of Evans Waterless Coolants." Also, if you Google you will find references to a product called NPG+C. Note the "C". Interesting is that it is announced as a product with lower viscosity, but a preview is not possible and if you click the link a page with a different contents is shown. It appears that Evans just removed the references and there are indications they silently replaced the NPG+ with NPG+C. If you carefully look at the picture of the can you will see the "C" behind the "NPG+". My can looks exactly like this but doesn't have the "C". They now tend to name it "High Performance Coolant" and the can suggests that it is the formerly called NPG+ but it isn't, it carries the "C" behind the name. Maybe Evans is silently replacing their product line and tries to avoid liability claims from people who experienced problems due to the lower viscosity. There is a lot of obfuscation going on there. They openly claimed that the NPG-R variant has a higher viscosity but if you look in the separate product descriptions they are all listed with the same viscosity, which contradicts a lot of other information. Anyway, there are lots of descriptions on the net about pump cavitation, i.e. the coolant pump drawing itself empty due to the too bad viscosity of Evans. With a stock radiator it might work, but with a Laminova it won't. At least not with MY can of Evans NPG+, the one without the C behind the name. One example: "I just got an email from Evans Cooling. They said that the problem with NPG+ was that it was the viscosity in cold weather coupled with heater core passages are so small. This prevented the heater from getting hot. Their solution is to use their new product that addresses this problem: NPG+C now only available only from their Potstown PA office, same price." > Are you using the S34 heat exchanger? That is what I thought about testing. No, a different one (I can look it up if you want), a special lightweight version. And don't forget you have to plug the center hole due to the low flow of the Rotax engines. Don't ask me how I know. If you go testing this, keep in mind that it places a greater demand on your water cooling. So if this is marginal, fix it first. I abandoned the stock thick radiator and its ducting completely and have used an angled thin radiator instead. For the oil cooling part, keep in mind that the efficiency of the oil cooler drops of when delta-T becomes too low. It is hard to cool the oil down to 120C if the coolant is 115C. If you like to be able to operate the engine near the upper range of its thermal design you still need some sort of after cooling for the oil. I have used a very small radiator for it (1/4 size of the stock radiator) and feed it air via a very small opening through a wedge diffuser. Benefits of this cooling layout are the higher efficiency due to elimination of a lot of cooling drag, superfast oil heat up time without thermostat, and it is impossible to overheat the oil due to the sharp increase of heat dissipation of the Laminova when delta-T rises. An in flight adjustable cowl-flap is a must with this design. Once you get it working it is a hell of a cooling system, with minimal warm-up time, an extremely broad OAT range, impossible to overheat, and with far less cooling drag than the conventional setup. Expect to see some additional knots as a result. > It almost sounds like the water pump inlet hose was kinked after the > flush and blocked the flow. Easy done. There was no kink and there was no air lock. I actually didn't touch the cooling system at all but just opened the drain at the bottom of the radiator, and once the Evans was out I refilled it with the old coolant, and suddenly the cooling system was working again. To empty the overflow bottle I used a small hose to syphon the stuff out, what I noticed was that the flow of the Evans through this hose was far less than what I got when siphoning out the 50/50 coolant. So much for the viscosity. BTW OAT was about 8C when I was doing all this (dunno what this is in F, but it is pretty cold). Frans ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:04 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: Europa-List: post curing For the assembled wisdom I need to post cure my flying surfaces. How have people done this? I constructed a home-made "oven" as per the manual and didn't even get within hailing distance of the temps required. How did others do this? Yours Will ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: post curing From: Robert Borger Will, You can see what I did by going to: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=60876 I have pictures of the oven, heaters and temperature. The oven was made by covering a rolling work bench I made up with 1" blue insulating foam. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Feb 26, 2012, at 6:07 AM, William Daniell wrote: > > For the assembled wisdom > > I need to post cure my flying surfaces. How have people done this? I > constructed a home-made "oven" as per the manual and didn't even get within > hailing distance of the temps required. > > How did others do this? > > Yours > > Will ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:47:53 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant Frans=2CI have no reason for believing that the Evans has actually lowered my cyl temps. In fact=2C it was very evident that the both #2 and #4 cylin ders when using Evans were hotter. I confirmed this using my hand held the rmometer. Without manufacturer driven research we are all just guessing. I must agree that the Evans claims in large auto and truck engines and rad iators is very accurate. However=2C you are spot on that their performance (especially in the motorcycle world and ATVs) is probably checkered at bes t and the company has made numerous changes=2C primarily due to the vast nu mber of differences in equipment=2C coolers=2C water flow rates=2C etc. I would hope that the Evans folks are getting the feedback they need. Right now=2C I cool my trigear very well even in summer temps using 50-50 glycol. Of course one never uses glycol pure. I just use distilled water with Ha veline coolant or buy the premix and all has been well. An acquaintance o f mine which maintains WWII era engines has used Evans=2C and found the rad iator size on his test bed needed more air to keep the temps down. Like us =2C he was convinced that he would run at near zero pressure=2C which is mu ch safer for him in the event of a leak on the engine test stand. Also he was interested in the lubrication and non corrosive aspects of Evans in his antique engines. However he is just not seeing better performance from th e coolant in practical use. He looked at the auto community and because th e specific heat of Evans is not a good as gylcol/water the radiator perform ance is poorer. (His tests are now over three years old.)He put me on to t he research done by one of the Jaguar car clubs=2C and it is worth a read b ut settles nothing with Evans use:http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0011 .html Comments from some SoCal racers I knew in Apple Valley (Off road rac ers) follows:"Evans coolant is 100% propylene glycol...no water added. (Not e from Bud=2C that Evans has gone to a mixture of propylene and glyol to th in the coolant so it is no longer pure.) Cool thing is it doesn't boil until 360F. Thats great when you think about localized boiling around the cylinders causing hotspots with conventional...with Evans there' s no way you're going to get hotspots in the combustion chamber that can possibl y cause knock. Bad thing is propylene glycol's specific heat isn't all that g reat. That effectively makes your radiator act like its smaller than it really is . That also means that when your engine makes a fixed amount of heat the Evan s coolant temps will rise more than water will. That's all fine and dandy whe n you remember that it won't boil until 360F...it has plenty of overhead. The bad thing is the fans run more often than they should since the stock computer thinks you're getting hotter than you should be. The other bad thing is you r oil temps go up from the extra heat in the block so you need a nice big oil coo ler to manage things. Granted Mobil 1 says its good for 400F but I know most ro ad racers shut things down at 300F. Other negatives to the Evans coolant are t he cost and the large expansion rate range of the fluid with temperature swing s." Many of these desert racers operate at outside temps near 120F and us e pure water with an additive to break the surface tension as pure water is not flamible=2C and really moves heat fast. They believed Evans was the a nswer to running with zero pressure caps=2C but cooled to that now. Anyway =2C although there may be no local boiling in the head with Evans=2C the en gine water pump moves the heat faster away from the head and radiator using 50/50 glycol. Since the Rotax goes well over 1000 hours without head and valve problems=2C I see no reason to jump on the Evans band wagon=2C and sp end the time and money to research new radiator sizes and flow rates any mo re. Even Lockwood Aviation=2C (one of the largest Rotax distributors and R otax Powered LSA dealers) has stopped using Evans in their planes. Lifetim e coolant is not really necessary when in 5 years we change the hoses anywa y and must go through the mess of trying to catch and reuse the coolant. Ju st my opinion...I'm a 50/50 guy for now. Best Regards=2C Bud Yerly > Date: Sun=2C 26 Feb 2012 12:55:18 +0100 > From: frans@privatepilots.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant > > > Hi Bud=2C > > > I have used the Evans in a stock trigear and have found my CHTs were > > about 15 degrees cooler with the glycol. > > Then that trigear was suffering from micro-boiling with the previour > coolant=2C otherwise it is quite impossible. The heat transfer rate of > Evans is lower than that of water based glycol=2C no way it can improve > over that. The *only* difference with Evans is the much higher boiling > point. This eliminates micro boiling and it allows you to operate the > engine at a *higher* temperature (also according to Rotax). So far the > concensus on this forum has been that the CHT's get hotter when using > Evans=2C forcing quite some people with a marginal cooling setup to rever t > back to 50/50. > > > I cannot imagine that the Evans would be too thick for the Laminova hea t > > exchanger as the coolant is basically the same viscosity of the Ethylen e > > glycol. > > Pure ethylene glycol is too thick as well=2C but you are supposed to mix > it with water. > > Maybe I'm living in a colder climate. On te Evans network I found in > their FAQ a description of exact this problem "some engines overheat > immediately following a cold start due to the lower viscosity of cold > Evans coolant". They offer modified coolant pumps=2C thermostats=2C etc. And > they have a new type of coolant designed for motorcycles with improved > viscosity so it flows better through fine radiators. > > > I hope not to insult you=2C but there are three or four types of Evans > > coolants. > > I know. There are even more. I have tested the factory recommended NPG+. > But now there appear to be two versions of this NPG+. Read on: > > > To my > > knowledge=2C there is no viscosity difference with any of them and all > > should work with the Rotax and Liminova. > > Yes there are differences=2C to address exactly this problem. I found a > table somewhere but their website is a mess=2C I have to search for it > again. Take for example their NPG-R: > On one of their websites: > "NPG-R NPG-R is specifically formulated to handle the extreme conditions > of racing and high performance automotive=2C marine and motorcycle > applications. *The reduced viscosity of NPG-R makes it more compatible > with small tube copper-brass radiators* while providing the superior > cooling of Evans Waterless Coolants." > > Also=2C if you Google you will find references to a product called NPG+C. > Note the "C". Interesting is that it is announced as a product with > lower viscosity=2C but a preview is not possible and if you click the lin k > a page with a different contents is shown. It appears that Evans just > removed the references and there are indications they silently replaced > the NPG+ with NPG+C. > If you carefully look at the picture of the can you will see the "C" > behind the "NPG+". My can looks exactly like this but doesn't have the > "C". They now tend to name it "High Performance Coolant" and the can > suggests that it is the formerly called NPG+ but it isn't=2C it carries > the "C" behind the name. > > Maybe Evans is silently replacing their product line and tries to avoid > liability claims from people who experienced problems due to the lower > viscosity. There is a lot of obfuscation going on there. They openly > claimed that the NPG-R variant has a higher viscosity but if you look in > the separate product descriptions they are all listed with the same > viscosity=2C which contradicts a lot of other information. > > Anyway=2C there are lots of descriptions on the net about pump cavitation =2C > i.e. the coolant pump drawing itself empty due to the too bad viscosity > of Evans. With a stock radiator it might work=2C but with a Laminova it > won't. At least not with MY can of Evans NPG+=2C the one without the C > behind the name. > > One example: > "I just got an email from Evans Cooling. They said that the problem with > NPG+ was that it was the viscosity in cold weather coupled with heater > core passages are so small. This prevented the heater from getting hot. > Their solution is to use their new product that addresses this problem: > NPG+C now only available only from their Potstown PA office=2C same price ." > > > Are you using the S34 heat exchanger? That is what I thought about test ing. > > No=2C a different one (I can look it up if you want)=2C a special > lightweight version. And don't forget you have to plug the center hole > due to the low flow of the Rotax engines. Don't ask me how I know. > If you go testing this=2C keep in mind that it places a greater demand on > your water cooling. So if this is marginal=2C fix it first. I abandoned > the stock thick radiator and its ducting completely and have used an > angled thin radiator instead. > For the oil cooling part=2C keep in mind that the efficiency of the oil > cooler drops of when delta-T becomes too low. It is hard to cool the oil > down to 120C if the coolant is 115C. If you like to be able to operate > the engine near the upper range of its thermal design you still need > some sort of after cooling for the oil. I have used a very small > radiator for it (1/4 size of the stock radiator) and feed it air via a > very small opening through a wedge diffuser. > Benefits of this cooling layout are the higher efficiency due to > elimination of a lot of cooling drag=2C superfast oil heat up time withou t > thermostat=2C and it is impossible to overheat the oil due to the sharp > increase of heat dissipation of the Laminova when delta-T rises. > An in flight adjustable cowl-flap is a must with this design. > > Once you get it working it is a hell of a cooling system=2C with minimal > warm-up time=2C an extremely broad OAT range=2C impossible to overheat=2C and > with far less cooling drag than the conventional setup. Expect to see > some additional knots as a result. > > > It almost sounds like the water pump inlet hose was kinked after the > > flush and blocked the flow. Easy done. > > There was no kink and there was no air lock. I actually didn't touch the > cooling system at all but just opened the drain at the bottom of the > radiator=2C and once the Evans was out I refilled it with the old coolant =2C > and suddenly the cooling system was working again. > To empty the overflow bottle I used a small hose to syphon the stuff > out=2C what I noticed was that the flow of the Evans through this hose wa s > far less than what I got when siphoning out the 50/50 coolant. So much > for the viscosity. BTW OAT was about 8C when I was doing all this (dunno > what this is in F=2C but it is pretty cold). > > Frans > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:07 PM PST US From: "Paul & Vanessa Munford" Subject: Europa-List: interior trim Hi guys, I'm reaching a stage where I'd like to fit some trim, ( footwells ). Does anyone produce a kit of pre cut parts for the Europa?? (UK based).thanx in advance. Paul Munford kit 625 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:40 PM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: interior trim Paul Europa sells a full trim kit (or parts) produced by Autotrim. I wrote the installation manual which I will send you direct. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul & Vanessa Munford Sent: 26 February 2012 20:39 Subject: Europa-List: interior trim Hi guys, I'm reaching a stage where I'd like to fit some trim, ( footwells ). Does anyone produce a kit of pre cut parts for the Europa?? (UK based).thanx in advance. Paul Munford kit 625 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:05 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant On 02/26/2012 08:44 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > Just my opinion...I'm a 50/50 guy for now. In most cases 50/50 is the best solution. I wanted to try Evans because I have cooling overcapacity so the reduced heat transfer is no issue, and the idea of running at zero pressure is interesting in terms of safety. Furthermore the engine can safely be operated at a higher temperature, which is good for performance. (This is not so obvious, but think about it this way: we ignite the fuel to get heat. Heat is what drives our engines. All heat taken away from the engine is a loss of energy. We should not cool any more than necessary to keep the engine from melting.) But now it appears the viscosity is a problem, so I'm back at 50/50. Oh BTW I misunderstood your previous post, thought you were saying that with Evans you had cooler CHT's but I now understand you weren't saying that. >> > I have used the Evans in a stock trigear and have found my CHTs were >> > about 15 degrees cooler with the glycol. If you ever consider using Evans again, forget about their prep fluid. Evans is a mixture of polypropylene glycol and ethylene glycol. Regular anti-freeze is pure ethylene glycol. So you can prep your engine by pouring pure anti-freeze in it, and then drain it again with any water that was remaining. If some droplets of anti-freeze remain it doesn't matter as it is just one of the components of Evans itself. And if you have water in your Evans you don't have to throw it away but you can just boil the water out on a stove. Or even in your engine if you leave the cap off. Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:00:09 PM PST US From: K BURNS Subject: Re: Europa-List: post curing Will,=0A-=0Aanother solution is to wrap in electric blanket layered with old duvets, controled by constructing an aquarium controler-in to a power suply lead....http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AC-220-240V-Digital-Temperature-Co ntroller-Thermostat-C-/160591018252=0A-=0AThe electric blanket will blow its thermal fuse if you do not insulate enougth to achieve the temperature you have dialed in.=0A-=0AAlso avoid over lapping the electric elements i n layers or the element will fail, also good practice to suply through an E LCB, and consider safety of your set up and how and where you use it !=0A -=0A-=0AKevin Burns.-=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A Fr om: Robert Borger =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASen t: Sunday, 26 February 2012, 13:37=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: post curing =0A=0AWill,=0A=0AYou can see what I did by going to: http://www.europaowner s.org/main.php?g2_itemId=60876=0A=0AI have pictures of the oven, heaters and temperature.=0A=0AThe oven was made by covering a rolling work bench I made up with 1" blue insulating foam.=0A=0ABlue skies & tailwinds,=0ABob Bo rger=0AEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.=0ALittle Toot Sport Bi plane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP=0A3705 Lynchburg Dr.=0ACorinth, TX - 76208-5331=0ACel: 817-992-1117=0Arlborger@mac.com=0A=0AOn Feb 26, 2012, at 6:07 AM, William Daniell wrote:=0A=0A> --> Europa-List message posted b y: "William Daniell" =0A> =0A> For the assembled wisdo m =0A> =0A> I need to post cure my flying surfaces.- How have people done this?- I=0A> constructed a home-made "oven" as per the manual and didn't even get within=0A> hailing distance of the temps required.- =0A> =0A> H =- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle ======== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:57 PM PST US From: keith hickling Subject: RE: Europa-List: post curing William, You need to take the thermostat out of circuit if you are using a fan heater. They mostly have the adjustable thermostat which you can turn up to about 30 degrees, and an additional safety thermostat which cuts the power off at around 40 degrees as far as I recall. Aircraft Spruce supply a kit with a thermostat that cuts the power off at about 80 degrees C and 2 thermometers. I used this as a safety backup, but found that I could control the temp at 50 - 70 degrees by manually turning it on and off. It would stay close to the required temp for 15 - 20 mins after turning off. I also had a seperate fan to keep the air circulating. I never went too far away from it during the whole process and checked frequently that nothing was melting ! Regards, Keith Hickling. Keith Hickling, New Zealand. Kit 613. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell Sent: Monday, 27 February 2012 1:08 a.m. Subject: Europa-List: post curing I need to post cure my flying surfaces. I constructed a home-made "oven" as per the manual and didn't even get within hailing distance of the temps required. Will ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:07 PM PST US From: Richard Wheelwright Subject: Re: Europa-List: interior trim Ian,=0A--- Do you have another copy you can send me too, Thank you. =0A-rpwheelwright@yahoo.co.uk=0A=0A============ =========0A=0ARichard Wheelwright=0A======= ==============0A=0A=0A___________________________ _____=0AFrom: G-IANI =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 26 February 2012, 21:35=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: interi or trim=0A=0A=0APaul=0A-=0AEuropa sells a full trim kit (or parts) produc ed by Autotrim.- I wrote the installation manual which I will send you di rect.=0A-=0A-=0AIan Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours=0AEuropa Club M ods Specialist=0Ae-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com=0A-=0A-=0AFrom:owner-europa -list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul & Vanessa Munford=0ASent: 26 February 2012 20:39=0ATo: eu ropa-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Europa-List: interior trim=0A-=0AHi gu ys, I'm reaching a stage where I'd like to fit some trim, ( footwells ). Do es anyone produce a kit of pre cut parts for the Europa??- (UK- based). thanx in advance. Paul Munford kit 625=0A-=0A-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Europa-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matroni ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.