Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - Re : Vortex generators (NEEL Jean Philippe)
2. 02:58 AM - Re: Re : Vortex generators (Frans Veldman)
3. 03:45 AM - Re: Vortex generators (flyingphil2)
4. 04:01 AM - Re: Re: post curing (William Daniell)
5. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: post curing (Karl Heindl)
6. 06:59 AM - Re: Re: post curing (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
7. 07:10 AM - Re: Re : Vortex generators (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
8. 08:14 AM - Re: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant (Bud Yerly)
9. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: post curing (William Daniell)
10. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Vortex generators (Bud Yerly)
11. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: post curing (Bud Yerly)
Message 1
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Subject: | Vortex generators |
Salut Michel=0AMichel Jambon a je crois des saumons allong=E9s et equip=E9s
de mini winglets=0AJP-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0ADe-:
mau11 <mau11@free.fr>=0A=C0-: europa-list <europa-list@matronics.com>
=0AEnvoy=E9 le : Mardi 28 f=E9vrier 2012 6h40=0AObjet-: Europa-List: Vort
ex generators=0A=0A=0AHi all,=0ADoes anyone have knowledge to use vortex ge
nerators on Europa airfoil ?=0A=0AAnd what position in % on the airfoil cho
rd ?=0A=0ATha goal is to reduce stall speed.=0A=0AThanks=0A=0AMichel AUVRAY
===================
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Vortex generators |
On 02/28/2012 09:05 AM, NEEL Jean Philippe wrote:
> Salut Michel
> Michel Jambon a je crois des saumons allongs et equips de mini winglets
???? Please keep it in Enlish, like we Duchmen and Germans do in this
forum. If you fancy the privacy of your own tongue, you'd better use
private email.
Be careful with vortex generators and winglets (I recognized the word
"winglets" so I assume someone is considering this). The Europa wing is
a modern design that doesn't need these "improvements". Vortex
generators might reduce the stall speed but come with a price like a
lower top speed and more drag. If you want this, maybe the concept of
the Europa doesn't fit too well and you'd better be looking for a
pipercub or something like that.
Winglets are useless on the Europa and only increase drag. The wing tips
of the Europa do not provide much lift and can be considered as open
folded (invisible) winglets. There is not much air at the wing tips that
wants to switch side, so vertical winglets serve no purpose here but
only increase frontal area and skin drag.
The Europa wings are designed by Don Dykins and well thought out, there
is no improvement possible without introducing some compromises.
Frans
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Vortex generators |
Out of interest, are there any photos or drawings of the LSA wing for the Europa?
Phil
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367424#367424
Message 4
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Thanks for the suggestions...
Crikey - there seems to be a lot of work in this and a requirement for
stable electrical supply which presents a challenge in Colombia. I think I
am going to be lazy and seek a car paint oven or autoclave.
Yours
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigoris
Sent: 27 February, 2012 11:24
Subject: Europa-List: Re: post curing
--> <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hi Guys
I sewed up a post curing tent. It's a round sausage made out of vinyl using
a 4" muffin fan to keep it inflated and a zipper to get to your stuff. I
forget the exact dimensions but the aluminium tubes ate 10 feet long so it's
close to that.BTW a YKK Zipper leaks very little pressure compared to
Velcro. Inside I have a 1500 watt articulating heater and a small fan to
keep the air inside from stratifying. I used a pyrometer or two from my hot
air balloons to keep track of the temps as well as a digital probe style. We
just drape some bubble wrap over the top to insulate a little better. Works
great. I only have one pic. of it:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27251
Here we have two thin wall aluminium tubes holding it opened as we were
using it in the winter to keep new layups warm after we shut down the heat.
All our post curing was done at Waynes home with no tubes. A small square of
Duct tape closes the holes for the tubes. It stores in a bag smaller than a
shopping bag.
If anyone is interested I also sewed up a 10' wide by 20" long and 9 foot
high tent that lives resident in my Tin hangar in NY. The sides are Velcroed
in place and can easily be removed to turn it into a hangar (top stays put
9' off the ground). Wew have heat from our home made heat exchanger and air
conditioning.
Also is a sewn up was our paint booth. It rolls up to a big Q-tip when not
being used. It has filtered air coming through a huge filter sewn to one
side:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27216
The pics only show it 10 feet long, but I can add extra to make it large
enough to paint the fuse and glider wings. The idea is the large 30" fan is
blowing in fresh air through the filter that is close to the size of the
wall. The air is going very slow. Then I have an attic fan in the door with
a furnace filter in it. The 30" overcomes the attic naf and pressurizes the
tent. I have to be careful, we need to put a restrictor over some of the
intaqke side of the 30" fan or it will make the tent so hard it will fail. I
should really sew up a "horses ass" relief valve, just a 8" tube with a
rubber band holding it closed. It hangs fro two 10' tubes and once inflated
can easily support 50 or more pounds hanging from the tubes.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367363#367363
Message 5
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|
It really isn't difficult or expensive=2C Will.I used polystyrene sheets (4
of 4x8') to make the oven against a wall. That takes maybe an hour=2C and
you can re-use the sheets to insulate your house.Put in a fan to circulate
the air=2C a 3kw fan heater=2C and one or two of the cheap 'outdoor' thermo
meters=2C where you drop the probes through one or two holes in the top. Wi
th the oven empty=2Cturn it all on and play with the settings on the heater
until the temperature stabilizes where you want it. Make sure you put some
kind of baffle in front of the heater so there is no hot spot. Beforehand
you also need to modify the heater to bypass the thermal safety cutout.
Karl
> From: wdaniell@etb.net.co
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing
> Date: Tue=2C 28 Feb 2012 07:00:54 -0500
>
>
>
> Thanks for the suggestions...
>
> Crikey - there seems to be a lot of work in this and a requirement for
> stable electrical supply which presents a challenge in Colombia. I think
I
> am going to be lazy and seek a car paint oven or autoclave.
>
> Yours
>
> Will
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigoris
> Sent: 27 February=2C 2012 11:24
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: post curing
>
> --> <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Hi Guys
>
> I sewed up a post curing tent. It's a round sausage made out of vinyl usi
ng
> a 4" muffin fan to keep it inflated and a zipper to get to your stuff. I
> forget the exact dimensions but the aluminium tubes ate 10 feet long so i
t's
> close to that.BTW a YKK Zipper leaks very little pressure compared to
> Velcro. Inside I have a 1500 watt articulating heater and a small fan to
> keep the air inside from stratifying. I used a pyrometer or two from my h
ot
> air balloons to keep track of the temps as well as a digital probe style.
We
> just drape some bubble wrap over the top to insulate a little better. Wor
ks
> great. I only have one pic. of it:
> http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27251
> Here we have two thin wall aluminium tubes holding it opened as we were
> using it in the winter to keep new layups warm after we shut down the hea
t.
> All our post curing was done at Waynes home with no tubes. A small square
of
> Duct tape closes the holes for the tubes. It stores in a bag smaller than
a
> shopping bag.
>
> If anyone is interested I also sewed up a 10' wide by 20" long and 9 foot
> high tent that lives resident in my Tin hangar in NY. The sides are Velcr
oed
> in place and can easily be removed to turn it into a hangar (top stays pu
t
> 9' off the ground). Wew have heat from our home made heat exchanger and a
ir
> conditioning.
>
> Also is a sewn up was our paint booth. It rolls up to a big Q-tip when no
t
> being used. It has filtered air coming through a huge filter sewn to one
> side:
> http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27216
> The pics only show it 10 feet long=2C but I can add extra to make it larg
e
> enough to paint the fuse and glider wings. The idea is the large 30" fan
is
> blowing in fresh air through the filter that is close to the size of the
> wall. The air is going very slow. Then I have an attic fan in the door wi
th
> a furnace filter in it. The 30" overcomes the attic naf and pressurizes t
he
> tent. I have to be careful=2C we need to put a restrictor over some of th
e
> intaqke side of the 30" fan or it will make the tent so hard it will fail
. I
> should really sew up a "horses ass" relief valve=2C just a 8" tube with a
> rubber band holding it closed. It hangs fro two 10' tubes and once inflat
ed
> can easily support 50 or more pounds hanging from the tubes.
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367363#367363
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 6
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Hi Will
You could always construct a black plastic sheet tent outside in the
summer sun. Watch out for overhrating though! Open the doors and
carefully monitor. Applied Arcaic Technology!
Ron Parigoris
"and a requirement for stable electrical supply which presents a
challenge in Colombia."
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Vortex generators |
Michel-
You really need to talk to Bud Yearly about the VGs. I think he has a kit c
ontaining them, and also has done some performance testing. The Europa LSA
wing does not use them, it is a new airfoil.
Jim Puglise
N283JL
Punta Gorda, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "NEEL Jean Philippe" <jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:05:27 AM
Subject: Re : Europa-List: Vortex generators
Salut Michel
Michel Jambon a je crois des saumons allong=C3=A9s et equip=C3=A9s de mini
winglets
JP
De : mau11 <mau11@free.fr>
=C3 : europa-list <europa-list@matronics.com>
Envoy=C3=A9 le : Mardi 28 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 6h40
Objet : Europa-List: Vortex generators
Hi all,
Does anyone have knowledge to use vortex generators on Europa airfoil ?
And what position in % on the airfoil chord ?
Tha goal is to reduce stall speed.
Thanks
Michel AUVRAY
Builder 145
el=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Lis
t
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant |
I boil it out as you say.
Hope the heat exchanger works out.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Frans Veldman<mailto:frans@privatepilots.nl>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant
<frans@privatepilots.nl<mailto:frans@privatepilots.nl>>
On 02/26/2012 08:44 PM, Bud Yerly wrote:
> Just my opinion...I'm a 50/50 guy for now.
In most cases 50/50 is the best solution. I wanted to try Evans
because
I have cooling overcapacity so the reduced heat transfer is no issue,
and the idea of running at zero pressure is interesting in terms of
safety. Furthermore the engine can safely be operated at a higher
temperature, which is good for performance. (This is not so obvious,
but
think about it this way: we ignite the fuel to get heat. Heat is what
drives our engines. All heat taken away from the engine is a loss of
energy. We should not cool any more than necessary to keep the engine
from melting.)
But now it appears the viscosity is a problem, so I'm back at 50/50.
Oh BTW I misunderstood your previous post, thought you were saying
that
with Evans you had cooler CHT's but I now understand you weren't
saying
that.
>> > I have used the Evans in a stock trigear and have found my CHTs
were
>> > about 15 degrees cooler with the glycol.
If you ever consider using Evans again, forget about their prep fluid.
Evans is a mixture of polypropylene glycol and ethylene glycol.
Regular
anti-freeze is pure ethylene glycol. So you can prep your engine by
pouring pure anti-freeze in it, and then drain it again with any water
that was remaining. If some droplets of anti-freeze remain it doesn't
matter as it is just one of the components of Evans itself.
And if you have water in your Evans you don't have to throw it away
but
you can just boil the water out on a stove. Or even in your engine if
you leave the cap off.
Frans
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 9
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thanks that sounds more like a "developing market" solution
When I use a heat gun sometimes all the lights go out..followed by wisps of
smoke from the electrical outlet. The toil and strife gets a little peeved
when the lights go out.again
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Sent: 28 February, 2012 09:58
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing
Hi Will
You could always construct a black plastic sheet tent outside in the summer
sun. Watch out for overhrating though! Open the doors and carefully monitor.
Applied Arcaic Technology!
Ron Parigoris
"and a requirement for stable electrical supply which presents a challenge
in Colombia."
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Vortex generators |
Phil,
We found that the original idea of molding slots into the XS wing was
heavy and not cost effective.
Reducing the empty weight of the XS is a problem and the LSA wing made
from carbon fiber was considered but the cost at $40 per yard of cloth
doubled the price of the wings to over $40K. Ouch.
Through the use of proper sized and placed vortex generators VG, the
Eruopa XS wing and Classic wing can meet LSA stall criteria. However
the useful load is a problem to fly legally. Most Europas are north of
900 pounds empty. The foam wing Classic trigear is a nice fit for LSA
though. Mine still came in at 904 pounds.
Pros:
Clean slow flight can be accomplished at 45 Knots.
Touchdowns lower than 40 can be achieved routinely.
Pre stall buffet is a delight. Comes on as a nice rumble and slight
stick shaker with no wing rock when applied properly.
STOL capability is improved obviously.
Drawbacks are:
Cruise is diminished by no more than 10 knots.
The deck angle with no flaps is nearly 20 degrees at stall. It really
hangs on so it is possible to drag the tail of a trigear even with a
full flap landing.
Unsightly things sticking out of the top of the aircraft wing.
Ours are clear and shaped to the contour of the wing so install is easy,
but requires exact templates to get the angles right on the VGs. They
are also removable without damaging the paint due to new glue advances.
Contact me off line and I can build you up a kit.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightcreations.com/>
(813) 653-4989
----- Original Message -----
From: flyingphil2<mailto:ptiller@lolacars.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 6:44 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Vortex generators
<ptiller@lolacars.com<mailto:ptiller@lolacars.com>>
Out of interest, are there any photos or drawings of the LSA wing for
the Europa?
Phil
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367424#367424<http://forums
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367424#367424>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
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on>
Message 11
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Ron, and everyone so kind to share your setups.
Just keeping the work in the un-airconditioned shop during cure works
well for me during the Florida summers. The barn gets 115 degrees in
the summer.
I share the concern of many of you on post curing. Especially now that
Gurit Manufacturing no longer supplies Ampreg 20, and Europa is now
forced into using Ampreg 21 exclusively in the kits. This is a great
laminating resin, it is more difficult to cure at room temp of 18C or
about 65 degrees with all but the fast hardener and the time to pull
from the mold or pull the peel ply is at least 16-20 hours, increasing
shop cure time... Gurit recommends a 50C or 122F cure for 16 hours
before de-molding, which is a long time..
I am working with Dave Goddard and Jon Pool at the Europa center to
explore a new chapter on heat curing the 21. In the European and
northern markets, you may find the 21 cures way too slow and the MSDS
and instructions from Gurit require a well above room temperature post
cure to allow sanding and handling the next day. I have no alternatives
for those of you in Europe. See the the Gurit instructions:
http://www.gurit.com/files/documents/ampreg-21v7pdf.pdf<http://www.gurit.
com/files/documents/ampreg-21v7pdf.pdf>
As many of you know I use Aeropoxy (similar to Ampreg 20) for my
laminations as it cures at 75F in modest humidity and is sandable in 12
hours. So overnight post cure is simply: set the thermostat in the shop
and go home. This is not the case everywhere of course, but very easy
to achieve...
I'll let you all know what we come up with.
Glad to hear and see your post cure ideas. I have used an old dryer
with thermostat but alas the old girl gave out and I need to build a new
post cure heater.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
Europa Tech Support
----- Original Message -----
From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us<mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To: Europa<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing
Hi Will
You could always construct a black plastic sheet tent outside in the
summer sun. Watch out for overhrating though! Open the doors and
carefully monitor. Applied Arcaic Technology!
Ron Parigoris
"and a requirement for stable electrical supply which presents a
challenge in Colombia."
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
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on>
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