---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/28/12: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:07 AM - Re : Vortex generators (NEEL Jean Philippe) 2. 02:58 AM - Re: Re : Vortex generators (Frans Veldman) 3. 03:45 AM - Re: Vortex generators (flyingphil2) 4. 04:01 AM - Re: Re: post curing (William Daniell) 5. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: post curing (Karl Heindl) 6. 06:59 AM - Re: Re: post curing (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 7. 07:10 AM - Re: Re : Vortex generators (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 8. 08:14 AM - Re: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant (Bud Yerly) 9. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: post curing (William Daniell) 10. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Vortex generators (Bud Yerly) 11. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: post curing (Bud Yerly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:07:37 AM PST US From: NEEL Jean Philippe Subject: Re : Europa-List: Vortex generators Salut Michel=0AMichel Jambon a je crois des saumons allong=E9s et equip=E9s de mini winglets=0AJP-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0ADe-: mau11 =0A=C0-: europa-list =0AEnvoy=E9 le : Mardi 28 f=E9vrier 2012 6h40=0AObjet-: Europa-List: Vort ex generators=0A=0A=0AHi all,=0ADoes anyone have knowledge to use vortex ge nerators on Europa airfoil ?=0A=0AAnd what position in % on the airfoil cho rd ?=0A=0ATha goal is to reduce stall speed.=0A=0AThanks=0A=0AMichel AUVRAY =================== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:50 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Re : Europa-List: Vortex generators On 02/28/2012 09:05 AM, NEEL Jean Philippe wrote: > Salut Michel > Michel Jambon a je crois des saumons allongs et equips de mini winglets ???? Please keep it in Enlish, like we Duchmen and Germans do in this forum. If you fancy the privacy of your own tongue, you'd better use private email. Be careful with vortex generators and winglets (I recognized the word "winglets" so I assume someone is considering this). The Europa wing is a modern design that doesn't need these "improvements". Vortex generators might reduce the stall speed but come with a price like a lower top speed and more drag. If you want this, maybe the concept of the Europa doesn't fit too well and you'd better be looking for a pipercub or something like that. Winglets are useless on the Europa and only increase drag. The wing tips of the Europa do not provide much lift and can be considered as open folded (invisible) winglets. There is not much air at the wing tips that wants to switch side, so vertical winglets serve no purpose here but only increase frontal area and skin drag. The Europa wings are designed by Don Dykins and well thought out, there is no improvement possible without introducing some compromises. Frans ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:02 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Vortex generators From: "flyingphil2" Out of interest, are there any photos or drawings of the LSA wing for the Europa? Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367424#367424 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:57 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing Thanks for the suggestions... Crikey - there seems to be a lot of work in this and a requirement for stable electrical supply which presents a challenge in Colombia. I think I am going to be lazy and seek a car paint oven or autoclave. Yours Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigoris Sent: 27 February, 2012 11:24 Subject: Europa-List: Re: post curing --> Hi Guys I sewed up a post curing tent. It's a round sausage made out of vinyl using a 4" muffin fan to keep it inflated and a zipper to get to your stuff. I forget the exact dimensions but the aluminium tubes ate 10 feet long so it's close to that.BTW a YKK Zipper leaks very little pressure compared to Velcro. Inside I have a 1500 watt articulating heater and a small fan to keep the air inside from stratifying. I used a pyrometer or two from my hot air balloons to keep track of the temps as well as a digital probe style. We just drape some bubble wrap over the top to insulate a little better. Works great. I only have one pic. of it: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27251 Here we have two thin wall aluminium tubes holding it opened as we were using it in the winter to keep new layups warm after we shut down the heat. All our post curing was done at Waynes home with no tubes. A small square of Duct tape closes the holes for the tubes. It stores in a bag smaller than a shopping bag. If anyone is interested I also sewed up a 10' wide by 20" long and 9 foot high tent that lives resident in my Tin hangar in NY. The sides are Velcroed in place and can easily be removed to turn it into a hangar (top stays put 9' off the ground). Wew have heat from our home made heat exchanger and air conditioning. Also is a sewn up was our paint booth. It rolls up to a big Q-tip when not being used. It has filtered air coming through a huge filter sewn to one side: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27216 The pics only show it 10 feet long, but I can add extra to make it large enough to paint the fuse and glider wings. The idea is the large 30" fan is blowing in fresh air through the filter that is close to the size of the wall. The air is going very slow. Then I have an attic fan in the door with a furnace filter in it. The 30" overcomes the attic naf and pressurizes the tent. I have to be careful, we need to put a restrictor over some of the intaqke side of the 30" fan or it will make the tent so hard it will fail. I should really sew up a "horses ass" relief valve, just a 8" tube with a rubber band holding it closed. It hangs fro two 10' tubes and once inflated can easily support 50 or more pounds hanging from the tubes. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367363#367363 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:51 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing It really isn't difficult or expensive=2C Will.I used polystyrene sheets (4 of 4x8') to make the oven against a wall. That takes maybe an hour=2C and you can re-use the sheets to insulate your house.Put in a fan to circulate the air=2C a 3kw fan heater=2C and one or two of the cheap 'outdoor' thermo meters=2C where you drop the probes through one or two holes in the top. Wi th the oven empty=2Cturn it all on and play with the settings on the heater until the temperature stabilizes where you want it. Make sure you put some kind of baffle in front of the heater so there is no hot spot. Beforehand you also need to modify the heater to bypass the thermal safety cutout. Karl > From: wdaniell@etb.net.co > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing > Date: Tue=2C 28 Feb 2012 07:00:54 -0500 > > > > Thanks for the suggestions... > > Crikey - there seems to be a lot of work in this and a requirement for > stable electrical supply which presents a challenge in Colombia. I think I > am going to be lazy and seek a car paint oven or autoclave. > > Yours > > Will > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigoris > Sent: 27 February=2C 2012 11:24 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Re: post curing > > --> > > Hi Guys > > I sewed up a post curing tent. It's a round sausage made out of vinyl usi ng > a 4" muffin fan to keep it inflated and a zipper to get to your stuff. I > forget the exact dimensions but the aluminium tubes ate 10 feet long so i t's > close to that.BTW a YKK Zipper leaks very little pressure compared to > Velcro. Inside I have a 1500 watt articulating heater and a small fan to > keep the air inside from stratifying. I used a pyrometer or two from my h ot > air balloons to keep track of the temps as well as a digital probe style. We > just drape some bubble wrap over the top to insulate a little better. Wor ks > great. I only have one pic. of it: > http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27251 > Here we have two thin wall aluminium tubes holding it opened as we were > using it in the winter to keep new layups warm after we shut down the hea t. > All our post curing was done at Waynes home with no tubes. A small square of > Duct tape closes the holes for the tubes. It stores in a bag smaller than a > shopping bag. > > If anyone is interested I also sewed up a 10' wide by 20" long and 9 foot > high tent that lives resident in my Tin hangar in NY. The sides are Velcr oed > in place and can easily be removed to turn it into a hangar (top stays pu t > 9' off the ground). Wew have heat from our home made heat exchanger and a ir > conditioning. > > Also is a sewn up was our paint booth. It rolls up to a big Q-tip when no t > being used. It has filtered air coming through a huge filter sewn to one > side: > http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27216 > The pics only show it 10 feet long=2C but I can add extra to make it larg e > enough to paint the fuse and glider wings. The idea is the large 30" fan is > blowing in fresh air through the filter that is close to the size of the > wall. The air is going very slow. Then I have an attic fan in the door wi th > a furnace filter in it. The 30" overcomes the attic naf and pressurizes t he > tent. I have to be careful=2C we need to put a restrictor over some of th e > intaqke side of the 30" fan or it will make the tent so hard it will fail . I > should really sew up a "horses ass" relief valve=2C just a 8" tube with a > rubber band holding it closed. It hangs fro two 10' tubes and once inflat ed > can easily support 50 or more pounds hanging from the tubes. > > Ron Parigoris > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367363#367363 > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:28 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Will You could always construct a black plastic sheet tent outside in the summer sun. Watch out for overhrating though! Open the doors and carefully monitor. Applied Arcaic Technology! Ron Parigoris "and a requirement for stable electrical supply which presents a challenge in Colombia." ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:25 AM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Re : Europa-List: Vortex generators Michel- You really need to talk to Bud Yearly about the VGs. I think he has a kit c ontaining them, and also has done some performance testing. The Europa LSA wing does not use them, it is a new airfoil. Jim Puglise N283JL Punta Gorda, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "NEEL Jean Philippe" Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:05:27 AM Subject: Re : Europa-List: Vortex generators Salut Michel Michel Jambon a je crois des saumons allong=C3=A9s et equip=C3=A9s de mini winglets JP De : mau11 =C3 : europa-list Envoy=C3=A9 le : Mardi 28 f=C3=A9vrier 2012 6h40 Objet : Europa-List: Vortex generators Hi all, Does anyone have knowledge to use vortex generators on Europa airfoil ? And what position in % on the airfoil chord ? Tha goal is to reduce stall speed. Thanks Michel AUVRAY Builder 145 el=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Lis t et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution == ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:24 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant I boil it out as you say. Hope the heat exchanger works out. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Frans Veldman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laminova heat exchanger and Evans coolant > On 02/26/2012 08:44 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > Just my opinion...I'm a 50/50 guy for now. In most cases 50/50 is the best solution. I wanted to try Evans because I have cooling overcapacity so the reduced heat transfer is no issue, and the idea of running at zero pressure is interesting in terms of safety. Furthermore the engine can safely be operated at a higher temperature, which is good for performance. (This is not so obvious, but think about it this way: we ignite the fuel to get heat. Heat is what drives our engines. All heat taken away from the engine is a loss of energy. We should not cool any more than necessary to keep the engine from melting.) But now it appears the viscosity is a problem, so I'm back at 50/50. Oh BTW I misunderstood your previous post, thought you were saying that with Evans you had cooler CHT's but I now understand you weren't saying that. >> > I have used the Evans in a stock trigear and have found my CHTs were >> > about 15 degrees cooler with the glycol. If you ever consider using Evans again, forget about their prep fluid. Evans is a mixture of polypropylene glycol and ethylene glycol. Regular anti-freeze is pure ethylene glycol. So you can prep your engine by pouring pure anti-freeze in it, and then drain it again with any water that was remaining. If some droplets of anti-freeze remain it doesn't matter as it is just one of the components of Evans itself. And if you have water in your Evans you don't have to throw it away but you can just boil the water out on a stove. Or even in your engine if you leave the cap off. Frans http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:36 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing thanks that sounds more like a "developing market" solution When I use a heat gun sometimes all the lights go out..followed by wisps of smoke from the electrical outlet. The toil and strife gets a little peeved when the lights go out.again From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sent: 28 February, 2012 09:58 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing Hi Will You could always construct a black plastic sheet tent outside in the summer sun. Watch out for overhrating though! Open the doors and carefully monitor. Applied Arcaic Technology! Ron Parigoris "and a requirement for stable electrical supply which presents a challenge in Colombia." ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:01 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Vortex generators Phil, We found that the original idea of molding slots into the XS wing was heavy and not cost effective. Reducing the empty weight of the XS is a problem and the LSA wing made from carbon fiber was considered but the cost at $40 per yard of cloth doubled the price of the wings to over $40K. Ouch. Through the use of proper sized and placed vortex generators VG, the Eruopa XS wing and Classic wing can meet LSA stall criteria. However the useful load is a problem to fly legally. Most Europas are north of 900 pounds empty. The foam wing Classic trigear is a nice fit for LSA though. Mine still came in at 904 pounds. Pros: Clean slow flight can be accomplished at 45 Knots. Touchdowns lower than 40 can be achieved routinely. Pre stall buffet is a delight. Comes on as a nice rumble and slight stick shaker with no wing rock when applied properly. STOL capability is improved obviously. Drawbacks are: Cruise is diminished by no more than 10 knots. The deck angle with no flaps is nearly 20 degrees at stall. It really hangs on so it is possible to drag the tail of a trigear even with a full flap landing. Unsightly things sticking out of the top of the aircraft wing. Ours are clear and shaped to the contour of the wing so install is easy, but requires exact templates to get the angles right on the VGs. They are also removable without damaging the paint due to new glue advances. Contact me off line and I can build you up a kit. Regards, Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations, Inc. www.customflightcreations.com (813) 653-4989 ----- Original Message ----- From: flyingphil2 To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 6:44 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Vortex generators > Out of interest, are there any photos or drawings of the LSA wing for the Europa? Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367424#367424 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:03 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: post curing Ron, and everyone so kind to share your setups. Just keeping the work in the un-airconditioned shop during cure works well for me during the Florida summers. The barn gets 115 degrees in the summer. I share the concern of many of you on post curing. Especially now that Gurit Manufacturing no longer supplies Ampreg 20, and Europa is now forced into using Ampreg 21 exclusively in the kits. This is a great laminating resin, it is more difficult to cure at room temp of 18C or about 65 degrees with all but the fast hardener and the time to pull from the mold or pull the peel ply is at least 16-20 hours, increasing shop cure time... Gurit recommends a 50C or 122F cure for 16 hours before de-molding, which is a long time.. I am working with Dave Goddard and Jon Pool at the Europa center to explore a new chapter on heat curing the 21. In the European and northern markets, you may find the 21 cures way too slow and the MSDS and instructions from Gurit require a well above room temperature post cure to allow sanding and handling the next day. I have no alternatives for those of you in Europe. See the the Gurit instructions: http://www.gurit.com/files/documents/ampreg-21v7pdf.pdf As many of you know I use Aeropoxy (similar to Ampreg 20) for my laminations as it cures at 75F in modest humidity and is sandable in 12 hours. So overnight post cure is simply: set the thermostat in the shop and go home. This is not the case everywhere of course, but very easy to achieve... I'll let you all know what we come up with. Glad to hear and see your post cure ideas. I have used an old dryer with thermostat but alas the old girl gave out and I need to build a new post cure heater. Regards, Bud Yerly Europa Tech Support ----- Original Message ----- From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: Europa Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:58 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: post curing Hi Will You could always construct a black plastic sheet tent outside in the summer sun. Watch out for overhrating though! Open the doors and carefully monitor. Applied Arcaic Technology! Ron Parigoris "and a requirement for stable electrical supply which presents a challenge in Colombia." http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.