---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/07/12: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:11 AM - Re: Rough running 912S (david park) 2. 12:32 AM - Re: Rough running 912S (PHILLIPS I) 3. 12:34 AM - Re: Guernsey Aero Club web site USAF Forcasts:- (Remi Guerner) 4. 01:05 AM - Re: Re: Guernsey Aero Club web site USAF Forcasts:- (David Joyce) 5. 01:17 AM - Re: Guernsey Aero Club web site USAF Forcasts:- (David Joyce) 6. 08:26 AM - Re: Rough running 912S (Robert Borger) 7. 08:51 AM - Re: Rough running 912S (Pete Lawless) 8. 11:47 AM - Re: Rough running 912S (Richard Iddon) 9. 04:39 PM - Re: Rough running 912S (Robert Borger) 10. 04:39 PM - Re: Rough running 912S (Bud Yerly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough running 912S From: david park Weather conditions. - carb ice? Sent from my iPhone On 7 Mar 2012, at 05:07, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: > > Where do I look next? > Carbs. > Kevin > > On Mar 6, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Richard Iddon wrote: > >> >> My 912S hasn't run for almost 12 months. It started and ran well on ground runs. Test flight was OK although there was some 'plucking'. Since then I have flown three more times and am finding that the engine runs fine at full revs or climb settings but when I back off at the top of the climb, it splutters and coughs a bit and runs quite roughly as if it is missing a bit. Doesn't fill me with confidence. I have pulled the plugs and they seem fine, nice even grey colour, no oily plugs. Where do I look next? >> >> Richard Iddon >> >> G-RIXS >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough running 912S From: PHILLIPS I Hi Richard I would check the free movement of the throttle cables especially if they have been under tension from the return springs for a year, Have you done a carb sinc? also fuel left in float chambers will evaporate and leave a gum like deposit in the bowl, its worth dropping the bowls for a check, good luck Ivor On 7 March 2012 08:10, david park wrote: > > Weather conditions. - carb ice? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 7 Mar 2012, at 05:07, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > Where do I look next? > > Carbs. > > Kevin > > > > On Mar 6, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Richard Iddon wrote: > > > >> > >> My 912S hasn't run for almost 12 months. It started and ran well on > ground runs. Test flight was OK although there was some 'plucking'. Since > then I have flown three more times and am finding that the engine runs fine > at full revs or climb settings but when I back off at the top of the climb, > it splutters and coughs a bit and runs quite roughly as if it is missing a > bit. Doesn't fill me with confidence. I have pulled the plugs and they seem > fine, nice even grey colour, no oily plugs. Where do I look next? > >> > >> Richard Iddon > >> > >> G-RIXS > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:17 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Guernsey Aero Club web site USAF Forcasts:- From: "Remi Guerner" Hi David, This one works: http://ows.public.sembach.af.mil/index.cfm?section=dspLoop&image=21OWS_EUROPE_FITL_PROG-BRIEFING_????????&prodname=21OWS_EUROPE_FITL_PROG-BRIEFING_ Cheers Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367911#367911 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:23 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Guernsey Aero Club web site USAF Forcasts:- Remi, Fantastic, I will update the website right now. Regards, David On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 00:34:03 -0800 "Remi Guerner" wrote: > > > Hi David, > This one works: > > http://ows.public.sembach.af.mil/index.cfm?section=dspLoop&image=21OWS_EUROPE_FITL_PROG-BRIEFING_????????&prodname=21OWS_EUROPE_FITL_PROG-BRIEFING_ > > Cheers > Remi > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367911#367911 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:55 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Guernsey Aero Club web site USAF Forcasts:- Bob, Can't do anything about the Guernsy site but pleased to say USAF nowworking nicely on thge Europa Club site. Regards, David, G-XSDJ On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:46:59 +0000 Bob Harrison wrote: > Hi! > > Does anyone know why the USAF Forecast Charts via the >Guernsey Aero Club Web > page are showing for late January dates? > > Has their service been discontinued? > > All other items on the web. Page seem to be up and >running AOK > > Regards > > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough running 912S From: Robert Borger Richard, I would suggest you sign up for and post this question to the Rotax-list@matronics.com as there is some good Rotax specific knowledge there. Perhaps there's someone who has had the same experience. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Mar 6, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Richard Iddon wrote: My 912S hasn't run for almost 12 months. It started and ran well on ground runs. Test flight was OK although there was some 'plucking'. Since then I have flown three more times and am finding that the engine runs fine at full revs or climb settings but when I back off at the top of the climb, it splutters and coughs a bit and runs quite roughly as if it is missing a bit. Doesn't fill me with confidence. I have pulled the plugs and they seem fine, nice even grey colour, no oily plugs. Where do I look next? Richard Iddon G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:52 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rough running 912S Richard Have you got the little plastic pipes from the carbs connected into the air box? I have had exactly the same symptoms on my 912 when I left the pipes unconnected after working on the aeroplane. Good in the climb and missing and rough when I pulled the power back. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: 07 March 2012 16:25 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough running 912S Richard, I would suggest you sign up for and post this question to the Rotax-list@matronics.com as there is some good Rotax specific knowledge there. Perhaps there's someone who has had the same experience. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Mar 6, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Richard Iddon wrote: My 912S hasn't run for almost 12 months. It started and ran well on ground runs. Test flight was OK although there was some 'plucking'. Since then I have flown three more times and am finding that the engine runs fine at full revs or climb settings but when I back off at the top of the climb, it splutters and coughs a bit and runs quite roughly as if it is missing a bit. Doesn't fill me with confidence. I have pulled the plugs and they seem fine, nice even grey colour, no oily plugs. Where do I look next? Richard Iddon G-RIXS -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:47:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough running 912S From: Richard Iddon Hi Guys. Fuel was drained before layup, bowls dropped and cleaned out. Engine was left with carbs at full throttle, i.e. minimum tension on springs. Carbs have been re-balanced before test flight. Ran perfectly on the ground. I have rotax permanent carb heaters fitted so that should eliminate possibility of ice, (I hope!) although humidity was very high for this particular flight. I had to wait for fog to clear before flight and temperature and dew point were both 7deg. I guess I will pull the carbs off, check the sockets and diaphragms, ensure float bowl vent pipes are OK. Incidentally, I replaced all the fuel pipes, including the vent pipes, at layup. Will report back if progress is made. Richard Iddon. On 7 Mar 2012, at 08:31, PHILLIPS I wrote: > Hi Richard > I would check the free movement of the throttle cables especially if they > have been under tension from the return springs for a year, Have you done a carb sinc? also fuel left in float chambers will evaporate and leave a gum like deposit > in the bowl, its worth dropping the bowls for a check, > good luck > Ivor > > On 7 March 2012 08:10, david park wrote: > > Weather conditions. - carb ice? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 7 Mar 2012, at 05:07, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > Where do I look next? > > Carbs. > > Kevin > > > > On Mar 6, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Richard Iddon wrote: > > > >> > >> My 912S hasn't run for almost 12 months. It started and ran well on ground runs. Test flight was OK although there was some 'plucking'. Since then I have flown three more times and am finding that the engine runs fine at full revs or climb settings but when I back off at the top of the climb, it splutters and coughs a bit and runs quite roughly as if it is missing a bit. Doesn't fill me with confidence. I have pulled the plugs and they seem fine, nice even grey colour, no oily plugs. Where do I look next? > >> > >> Richard Iddon > >> > >> G-RIXS > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough running 912S From: Robert Borger Richard, When you have the carbs off, check the condition of the needles and orifices. Ensure there is nothing providing a partial blockage to the orifice on either carb. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Richard Iddon wrote: Hi Guys. Fuel was drained before layup, bowls dropped and cleaned out. Engine was left with carbs at full throttle, i.e. minimum tension on springs. Carbs have been re-balanced before test flight. Ran perfectly on the ground. I have rotax permanent carb heaters fitted so that should eliminate possibility of ice, (I hope!) although humidity was very high for this particular flight. I had to wait for fog to clear before flight and temperature and dew point were both 7deg. I guess I will pull the carbs off, check the sockets and diaphragms, ensure float bowl vent pipes are OK. Incidentally, I replaced all the fuel pipes, including the vent pipes, at layup. Will report back if progress is made. Richard Iddon. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:09 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough running 912S Richard, There are many things which can cause this problem and you are on the right track. Rarely does a new Rotax need any tuning, but we tune them anyway here at Custom Flight, as the factory doesn't quite center speck the engine to what I call sewing machine smooth... In fact on the last three engines, my fillings hurt from the factory tune. Not rough, but not right. Please check your throttle cables are working together. I will not cut the cables as the slightest of binding causes a draggy cable. Some use solid cables, I have a bird flying 10 years on the same stock cables and it still works like a charm. Check the plugs are all basically the same with no heavy black soot or white hot deposits. A nice grayish brown look is right. Next is the carb balance. We use dual manometers supplied by Rotax and mechanically set the idle stops using the maintenance manual procedures, then we pneumatically balance the carbs until each carb is exactly the same pressure using the Rotax tuning method. Reconnect the crossover tube and all should be smooth up to 4000 RPM. If you still have a rough spot, move the needles to the third position.. At full throttle, and all is well, and when at 3500 or below it runs rough on the ground please look at your carb mixture. For operations at sea level to 1500 feet field elevations we have found setting the carb needle at the third position for both carbs does best at clearing this rough area. The factory sets one carb normally at position 2 on the needle and the other on three. This third position is a bit richer and at part load we get better running at part throttle. If you have EGT, note the changes on your EGT from side to side.. You can tell if it is too rich at 4000 RPM if you pull the choke out 1/4 inch and the engine runs rough and wants to die as (believe it or not) the enrichening circuit (we call the choke) only works at near idle conditions and actually leans at 4000 RPM. If the engine smoothly increases or steady's, then your as rich as you want. I didn't believe this until Kerry at Lockwood showed me on our 914. Pretty neat. If your mag drop is 300 or slightly more, you have a mixture problem. I know, it sounds stupid, but it is true. You may be a bit lean and moving the needles to a richer setting may be necessary. I'm sure you're happy to note I have you taking the carbs apart a lot. But once set, I never have touched mine in three years. The carb heaters are not the problem, but check for an intake manifold leak at the rubber gaskets as you said. Of course it will be easy to tell if you have a manifold leak if you are using the dual Rotax carb balancing tool with the gauges. I do not use the electric models. Close the in line valves to get the needles reasonably steady. Good advice has been given to watching your intake plenum coming loose and checking for leaks as it causes roughness in the lower 4-5000 RPM area.... . Do clean the jets after the engine has sat for a long while for sure and run the required check of the float bowl plunger so that it shuts off well. Clean with solvent and low pressure air, not a piece of safety wire which will scratch the jets and change your settings. Cleanliness in your tank and fuel lines is a must. I don't even start an engine until flushing the tank at least three times with fuel, changing the filters in between and again before test flying. If she's still running rough look at ignition. Plugs should be clean, so check your color and compare left side to right. Hook a timing light to each spark plug lead and idle the engine using a helper to keep you safe. Watch the light and look for a miss in a cylinder. You may have a bad coil, unlikely in a new engine, but it has happened. Finally, if you have a fixed pitch prop (especially a Warp Drive) and you throttle back in flight above 80 KIAS, the prop, when windmilling (being driven by the wind) from high speed sets up a nasty noise and bit of vibration. It is just like compression braking, and the 912S and gearbox combo with this prop will tend to vibrate. This is the gear box lash and turbulence off the prop making the nasty noise and bit of vibration. This is quite startling to the new Europa passenger. The Airmaster AP332 will also set up a vibration when compression braking in a rapid descent by moving the prop from cruise to climb at low power, as the blade change to a flatter setting sets up a bit of turbulence... When doing a speed run at cruise of about 140 KIAS, I rarely move the prop to climb with the power set below 31 inches because it scares the customers with the sound change and vibration. The comment is usually "is it supposed to do that!". Keep us posted. You're on the right track. Regards, Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations, Inc. www.customflightcreations.com (813) 653-4989 ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough running 912S > Hi Guys. Fuel was drained before layup, bowls dropped and cleaned out. Engine was left with carbs at full throttle, i.e. minimum tension on springs. Carbs have been re-balanced before test flight. Ran perfectly on the ground. I have rotax permanent carb heaters fitted so that should eliminate possibility of ice, (I hope!) although humidity was very high for this particular flight. I had to wait for fog to clear before flight and temperature and dew point were both 7deg. I guess I will pull the carbs off, check the sockets and diaphragms, ensure float bowl vent pipes are OK. Incidentally, I replaced all the fuel pipes, including the vent pipes, at layup. Will report back if progress is made. Richard Iddon. On 7 Mar 2012, at 08:31, PHILLIPS I wrote: > Hi Richard > I would check the free movement of the throttle cables especially if they > have been under tension from the return springs for a year, Have you done a carb sinc? also fuel left in float chambers will evaporate and leave a gum like deposit > in the bowl, its worth dropping the bowls for a check, > good luck > Ivor > > On 7 March 2012 08:10, david park > wrote: > > > Weather conditions. - carb ice? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 7 Mar 2012, at 05:07, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: > klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com > > > > Where do I look next? > > Carbs. > > Kevin > > > > On Mar 6, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Richard Iddon > wrote: > > > > >> > >> My 912S hasn't run for almost 12 months. It started and ran well on ground runs. Test flight was OK although there was some 'plucking'. Since then I have flown three more times and am finding that the engine runs fine at full revs or climb settings but when I back off at the top of the climb, it splutters and coughs a bit and runs quite roughly as if it is missing a bit. Doesn't fill me with confidence. I have pulled the plugs and they seem fine, nice even grey colour, no oily plugs. Where do I look next? > >> > >> Richard Iddon > >> > >> G-RIXS > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.