---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/15/12: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:54 AM - Re: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made (jonathanmilbank) 2. 07:07 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Static (Bud Yerly) 3. 12:45 PM - Re: pilots licence (jonathanmilbank) 4. 12:51 PM - Trailer Information (Carl Meek) 5. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: Pitot Static and notes on AoA and approaches and landings. (Bud Yerly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:22 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made From: "jonathanmilbank" Hi Neville, Just to confirm that I would also like a Classic fuel filler kit, in case my email to you about this didn't reach you. Cheers, Jonathan Milbank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370829#370829 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:35 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Pitot Static JR, No the stall warner is mounted so as to give a specific pressure near the max angle of attack. It is just a probe hole for a low pressure switch. Basically, go fast and the pressure is high. slow down and finally the low head pressure at the leading edge finally allows the switch to close lighting the light or horn as desired. Regards, Bud Yerly Tech Support Custom Flight Creations, Inc. www.customflightcreations.com (813) 653-4989 ----- Original Message ----- From: JR Gowing To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:34 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Pitot Static A question for anyone ... Does the Europa stall warner wing inlet have any use in Angle of Attack instrumentation? JR(Bob) Gowing Kit 328 in NSW, Oz From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sent: Saturday, 14 April 2012 11:39 AM To: Europa Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Pitot Static Hi Kevin I have a Dynon D10A and want to fool with the AOA. I made a Home Grown probe that looks like it came from the Europa Factory (third leg) I haven't flown with it yet. Until I get some time on the bird, I didn't want to try a new position for the static and pitot. Thus my plan is to leave everything in the factory position including the AOA. I will try calibrating and see if the AOA gives any meaningful information. I made provisions that will allow me to easily move everything (Pitot, Static and AOA) to the front cover. Look through all the pics as I describe everything and my thinking in detail. http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=86923 See: Homegrown AOA for Dynon D-10A. Plan "A", "B" and now "C / D". The "Taco" approach as I describe to making the inside cover flange for the front cover will work just as easy on completed wings. Since your top panels are already bonded on, making 3 aluminium tubes permanently mounted would be difficult, but I think with not too much effort you could run Tygon tubing forward. Find someone with small arms to help out! Run by Bud if it would be OK to drill a hole or holes through spar to run the tubing up forward. Good Luck Ron Parigoris http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / 04/11/12 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:04 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: pilots licence From: "jonathanmilbank" If I have understood an instructor friend correctly, the EASA LAPL is for life, with less stringent medical requirements and there is no biennial flight review. Just 12 hours in your logbook within the preceding X?12?13? months. A bit like things used to be before the ghastly JAA stuck its oar in. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370881#370881 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:36 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Trailer Information From: Carl Meek I've had so many people email and ask for trailer details it's easier to post to everyone. This particular trailer is now for sale as I've been lucky enough to find hangarage, if anyone in the UK would like to buy it I'm looking for =A34000. For everyone else, all plans and photos are attached. You'll see that it was originally designed for a Jabiru, but it actually fits the europa BETTER than the jabiru!! ---- This is a twin-axle fully enclosed aircraft trailer. This trailer was custom built for me. It's pretty huge and will fit a wide range of aircraft. This is a true road legal and road going trailer. When I bought it I towed it 250 miles with my BMW 325i. Aircraft known to fit inside: * Jabiru UL450 with the long fin * Europa XS Trigear Features: * Corner jack points to lift the weight off the tyres and level it * Tracks for the nosewheel * Wing mounts inside * Solar panel, leisure battery, electric winch * Heavy duty jockey wheel (not currently fitted) * Fold down rear door that doubles as a ramp * A second ramp that doubles the length. Note that this was originally hinged off the main ramp but it made it too heavy so I cut the hinge. This is currently in SUSSEX, Pickup Only - I can't deliver. Available for viewing immediately and pickup around the end of April 2012. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:26 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Pitot Static and notes on AoA and approaches and landings. Kevin, I answered this question not to long ago and for the life of me can't find the really long and boring answer I gave to someone else. So I made another one. The AOA pitot from Dynon has a hole at 45 degrees or so to the normal pitot hole. It also has a bleed hole on the bottom for the pitot. It is a pressure differential indicator between the two forward holes. So it works like the Europa stall indicator but with a pot to give progressive indications rather than a single pole switch. It can be purchased heated which is really nice. Watch the amps though. Longer answer: Dynon has specific instructions on mounting position which is from the leading edge from 2-10 inches back and hanging from the Gretz mount. The aileron access hole is too far aft. As the relative wind hits the wing bottom it straightens out and the Dynon will not get a good enough angle difference to work as well as it should. This parallel flow of the air under the wing is what makes the Europa XS pitot so accurate but will not allow the differential pressure of the angle of attack function of the Dynon very accurate. I'm afraid I believe it best to make a hole in the wing. I install the mount by making a 5- 6 inch hole in the forward outer wing panel. Make a flange of four layers of bid like an access panel flange support. Make a thick mounting plate or reinforce the blank you cut out and cut for the Gretz install. Make sure the tube is aligned properly. Install the Gretz and screw it in. Run the new pitot tubes (use your existing static as is) for the Dynon pitot and AOA inputs. Hook the existing pitot from the Europa tube to your other airspeed indicator as a backup. Just feed the new tubes through your wing tip light conduit and rout them to the front of the spar at the tip to the Dynon pitot. I installed it on a couple of aircraft. Not a great use for me as I don't look at the Dynon on short final, but it works great in the pattern and stall training for a low speed sensor type warning... I prefer the long probe built into the wingtip sticking out two feet for accuracy, (I built one for the LSA testing) but what a bugger to walk around and fix when you bang into it. But it works really well until it is time to take the wing off and store it. The the tube must come off. The XS style pitot is very accurate and requires no calibration normally. However, your electric EFIS may. For others considering AOA advertised systems (read as long and boring): I am opinionated on AOA so here goes. After flying century series swept wing aircraft in the military, and then observing the AOA installed on Navy propeller trainers and the US Airforce T-37B I have come to this opinion. An AOA is essential for the large range of angle of attack possible (from zero lift to max lift at 19 degrees and maximum AOA of 30 degrees) and the specific angles needed to fly a swept wing aircraft properly. Most swept wing aircraft have little or no stall feel from max angle of lift to stall and the drag increases dramatically above approach speed and max lift angle. So if you get slow, these planes just sink faster nose high. The lack of feel of the high angle condition lulls the novice pilot into a slow speed approach at a steep angle of attack and approach angle without a feel of being slow. So, to prevent the horrible initial high sink rate low power approaches (remember the older turbojets didn't spin up too fast) air brakes were used on approach to keep the engine revs up and the AOA gave the pilot the indicator for his aircraft approach angle of attack and coupled with proper glide path control, and final approach airspeed calculations, all was well. In the F-4, F-5, T-38 and F-106, we always computed the final approach airspeed as well as flying the AOA. ( F-4E and T-38 were 155 Kts plus 2 knots per 1000 of fuel and external payload if memory serves.) AOA indications were our only alert if we were getting too slow from lack of attention. However, that was not good enough, so a tone was added also to bitch at us, sorry, alert us to the slow approach speed / higher than standard AOA due to our inattention to airspeed control. For maneuvering in combat the tone alerted the pilot to high drag and airspeed bleed off due to excessive angle of attack (beyond max lift) maneuvering. Hence the term on the tone or optimum turn was coined. At the sound of the tone, the back seater in the F-4D would lock his knees as aileron input from a new aggressive pilot caused a departure from controlled flight above the tone, (followed by out of control bold face actions and a deployed drag chute to recover if really done badly). The plane flew quite well beyond the steady tone provided you rolled with your feet. Hence we became skilled rudder pilots. The slatted E model was much easier for the new guy and became the standard, but slower solution. In a straight wing aircraft, stall occurs with a fairly sharp break about 14-17 degrees AOA. The T-34 (Beechcraft Debonair like trainer) AOA system was for pilot training for the Navy pilots transitioning to swept wing aircraft and to standardize operations. The approach in the Europa no flap on a 2.5 degree glide slope is a comfortable 65 Knots based on a 1370 lb, 49 knot stall speed. For short field approaches, I fly 5 knots slower with full flaps. With full flaps, (Kevin, you have a mono if I recall), your stall is 45 Knots so final should be 1.3 times that or about 60. The angle of approach with full flaps plus deck angle is about 13 degrees AOA. (Yea, I did a lot of calcs for the LSA mod on this.) However at 60 your view of the runway and touchdown area sucks if you are not head pinned to the canopy. So 65 works well. Remember to add 5 knots for wind shear, turbulence and or gusty conditions (1/2 gust factor) but plan for a longer float. Please calibrate your airspeed indicator if you haven't. Take the time, it is worth it. Then calibrate your Dynon or other stall warning system. All this speed addition adds to the float distance so get used to slow flight down the runway. The problem with the under wing style probe is that the up-wash effect of the air approaching the wing and the slow speeds we fly make the Dynon style pitot AOA/speed sensor less accurate than the holes in the wing style (Advanced Flight System type) stall or lift reserve sensor type of installation. The Right Angle is a vane type which is not much use to us, but pretty good for the canard guys and the systems that use the 4 pound chunk of aluminum out of the bottom of the wing are OK too. All these systems require you to test fly and calibrate the system. They use a pressure pot to give progressive indications as the speed changes rather than a switch like the on-off system like the Europa stall indicator (really more of a speed sensor). The Dynon is not a true AOA but is a speed sensor difference indicator which works pretty well. Again, as long as the systems are installed properly and extensively calibrated, they all work and will alert you to a slow speed condition. My feeling is this. With proper construction and rig, there are good aerodynamic cues for an impending stall. The Europa does not have hard banging from turbulence as some aircraft, but has all the cues. The cues can be enhanced by a simple angle on the leading edge of the wing just a foot out from the root rib. Buy a 1/2 (3/8 is enough) inch aluminum or plastic angle (1/16 inch thick), about 9-12 inches long, and tape it to the leading edge root of each wing to get your appropriate feel. For the mono place the point of the angle level with ground and go test. If you get above that touchdown angle, the strip will start to rumble. Then glass it up final when satisfied. Check the Ops manual as there is more info there. This little strip will jar you into checking your airspeed as the shake is pronounced on final or at altitude. Not so much in the landing flare if you set it to trip the air at landing attitude, but it is there. Aggressive slow speed maneuvering in a straight wing aircraft will not allow any system to give you timely stall indications as the lift curve slope is straight up to near the break. The stab on the Europa, like the Century Series fighters, is very powerful and you will rapidly overshoot the stall and will result in a violent break or snap. Fly smoothly at low speeds. Notes on landing: Personally, I profess to fly 80 Kts. on downwind, no slower than 70 in the final turn, 65 on final until across the fence and bleed to 60 on short final in a flare over the overrun, winds and obstacles permitting. At 60 there isn't much runway view so I don't get below 65 on final until I am close to the ground and have good peripheral visual cues. Maintain glide path until approaching the ground effect (about 6 feet) and begin round out to the slow flight attitude or touchdown attitude a few inches off the runway and allow the bird to settle tail wheel first. Just keep it straight and fly down the runway until that slow flight or landing attitude and it will reward you by touching tail wheel first then squish on the main. Keep the stick back. Note the nose wanders during power reduction in the flare as the Europa's center of mass is quite tight and it yaws quickly with P factor and of course cross winds. Warm those feet up and keep it straight. I use the wing low method in crosswinds in the conventional but in the mono I use a crab and just as I feel the plane settle, I try my best to kick out the tail to get runway alignment as I caught an outrigger one time and it took every bit of the 914 and Airmaster to get me off the runway when the outrigger touched first and I was not quick enough on the rudder. I work to touch the tail wheel first and jump on the rudder to maintain direction, holding the stick aft until it bends the tube. On a wide runway I do land on the downwind side and then straighten it up as the tendency is to turn into the wind. The Advanced Flight System AOA type indicator works very well on the mono, but the under wing style probes such as the Dynon get confused by the air cushion under the mono and are less accurate in the pre-touchdown attitude than they are in free air, but you aren't going to look at it in the flare anyway on a crosswind. Frankly, my max crosswind is 5 knots in a mono or conventional as my proficiency is not enough to do initial flights with a crosswind in a mono... It is not worth the risk until I get really proficient. (Read as never.) I use the same landing technique in the trigear. I touchdown at a very nose high attitude (higher than the mono) and hold the nose off until the nose wheel settles. Please do not round out high and mush it to contact like Cherokee pilots land. Fly the plane to the ground effect cushion and fly it as you were doing slow flight to the landing attitude, as speed bleeds off the plane is only inches high and it will settle to a slow speed well controlled touchdown... With the springs on the nose gear, the nose gear can get bouncy if the touchdown occurs at 55 Knots and the stick is immediately relaxed (or just dumped as novice pilots or us lazy old forgetful pilots do) and the new pilot will get into a pilot induced oscillation, dribbling the nose wheel down the runway. Simply hold the nose off until it wants to fall and relax the back pressure. Don't yank on the stick to get the nose up at or above 50 because you will come off the runway at a very high nose attitude and the results may be alarming. Normal touchdown speed is about 45-50 in ground effect. On rough strips, hold the stick back always. High speed nose wheel touchdowns will result in shimmy of the nose wheel eventually. This is eliminated by setting the nose wheel breakout to 17-21 pounds and hold the nose off. 17 for grass operations or you will never turn on wet grass. However on asphalt, 21 is recommended, as per the manual, and make for smoother operations if you insist on high speed touchdowns of the nose gear. (Readjust the dampener after 25 hours and never over grease the nose gear pivot shaft via the grease fitting. ( I hand lube it.) Grease on the shimmy dampener renders it useless. Make sure the O ring is secure also as it prevents grease from getting on the black plate.) As I said, I normally touch about 45-50 and hold the nose up until it just won't stay up or I want to turn off. In crosswinds exceeding 5 knots, you may decide to do less than a full flap or no flap approach, so add 5 knots and after a wing low touchdown on one main, when the other main touches, allow the trigear to weather vane a bit as it is going to happen nose high or low anyway, but keep it on centerline and lower the nose as you approach full rudder deflection or if you get scared and have to grab the brake to keep it straight. Especially if you didn't kill your drift... For those with a fixed pitch props, or poor idle stop, you may find you have residual thrust issues which prolong the float distance. Do not get lulled into a lower approach speed as a moments inattention or a wind shear or down draft will end up in a stall. Plan you approach well. (Lower your IQ to a 2 and concentrate on aim point and airspeed.) Try to avoid a steep approach, conditions permitting. Fly 65 with full flaps stabilized on short final. The key is the stable approach. Once clear of trees and fences adjust your aim point to short of your touchdown point and pull your power a bit earlier slowing a bit to 60 after beginning the round out. Practice by doing low approaches to the flare until you get the feel for what is necessary. Smacking the aircraft into the ground is counter productive, fly the plane inches above the runway until at the landing attitude and add power to hold, then go around. Get the landing attitude picture in your head. The work must be done in the approach and round out to the slow flight or touchdown attitude until your proficiency makes it automatic. If you don't know what the landing attitude is or need a refresher, go up at altitude and slow flight a while at low power. The horizon to cowl attitude or picture is worth a thousand words. That is your touchdown attitude. (Mono guys just need to stare out the front just prior to takeoff and memorize that picture for landing.) I preach not doing touch and goes but to do very low approaches to gain proficiency in handling close to the runway. It saves tires and wear and makes you a more proficient pilot. If you are afraid of the ground, you can't land well. Develop your skills and feel for where the runway is. Find the instructor who says you just bring the plane in and chop power, pull back and hold it until it stalls just as you touch down and shoot him, as it is justifiable homicide. No control is possible in a stall. You fly the plane to the runway and fly it until it is at the landing attitude and allow it to settle in to a touchdown (since with no power it will begin a slight sink or settling which will be very near the stall). As proficiency increases, so does the amount of backpressure you will need to maintain flight and you can, in ground effect, actually drag the trigear tail before the Europa will stop flying. Not recommended as paint and touchup will be required. Always account for the wind and payload when approaching the field. Practicing at 1100 lbs. vs. 1370 lbs. is a big difference. If I recall my calculations, it is about 2 knots per hundred pounds, so a light Europa may do fine at 60 Knots approach full flap, but be a short, hard landing at 1400 lbs. when it runs out of lift early... which can be embarrassing and costly. For the no kidding min run landing over an obstacle, a US Navy style AOA on speed to touchdown may be required. This is a power on 60 Knot approach slowing to 55 nose high until right before touchdown and pulling the nose up (even adding power a bit) to the landing attitude and an aggressive power reduction to touchdown, or, if misjudged, impact. It works, is hard on the plane, requires nerves of steel and repair skills if done repeatedly or poorly. Soft field landings require no special skill, just a normal landing carrying a bit of power at the end will slow the rate of sink, but so will a proper normal landing with full flaps. Regards to all. I have been flying a lot lately doing transition training for clients so I'm dumping on you all what I have been harping our new owners on. All of which are doing excellent landings in the conventional (three point) and trigear. Back to work. I haven't hit 70 hours of work this week so I must get to it. Much paperwork for taxes. Regards, Bud Yerly Europa Tech Support Custom Flight Creations, Inc. www.customflightcreations.com (813) 653-4989 ----- Original Message ----- From: klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:08 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Pitot Static Hi All, I'm thinking about adding Angle of Attack function to my Dynon D10a unit. This requires the Dynon aoa pitot to be installed on my completed wing. I think that could be done easily by mounting the pitot on the bellcrank access cover. Has anyone done this successfully? thanks, Kevin Mono 914, 400hrs On Mar 31, 2012, at 1:09 PM, jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: Paul- I mounted my Dynon on the same wing as the Europa probe. It mounts a little more toward the leading edge as I recall. I think I mounted mine just behind the spar. If you have closed your wings, you would need to put a hole in your skin to mount it, and do as Bud said and use the Gretz mount. I backed my Gretz mount with 1/16 plywood and BID. I put them in the same wing to avoid putting a run of irrigation tubing in the other wing also. The four tubes share a length of tubing to the wing root. I actually had to change the tubing and was able to get to it through the inspection port and do it in only an hour or so. I used a "T" connector to use the Europa static port for the Dynon also. Works fine. I have photos of it all if you need them. Jim Puglise N283JL -- 15 hrs and fighting cooling devils ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: "Bud Yerly" > To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:39:28 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Pitot Static Paul, I always put the standard pitot / static on my aircraft. It hooks to the normal A/S and Altimeter. The Dynon probe is added to the other wing normally and feeds the Dynon pitot/aoa. I make a 5 inch access hole and build in a flange then mount the probe and its Gretz mount to the wing about 10 inches back from the leading edge as that is what Dynon recommends I believe for its AOA function. Should icing be a consideration, I mount a cockpit static valve to use the cockpit air which is accurate to about 2 knots and 50 feet at all speeds and altitudes to 10,000 ft. Do not mount the Dynon where the standard pitot is. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Europaul383 To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:47 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Pitot Static > Hi Bud (or anyone else who has an answer), I read your post while looking for info on the Dynon AoA. I was thinking of installing this AoA, but their probe has just 2 holes - pitot and AoA - I'd then have to find another source for the static air - can you recall what George Reed did for static? Thanks in advance. Paul XS Mono 383 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369480#369480 http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:/ /forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c============ ===== arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.