Europa-List Digest Archive

Sat 04/28/12


Total Messages Posted: 15



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:29 AM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     2. 04:15 AM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (europapa)
     3. 04:50 AM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (David Joyce)
     4. 06:33 AM - brake O ring (egp8111)
     5. 07:55 AM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (Philip Levi)
     6. 08:24 AM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (Jan de Jong)
     7. 08:56 AM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (david park)
     8. 09:07 AM - Re: brake O ring (G-IANI)
     9. 09:44 AM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (Jan de Jong)
    10. 10:40 AM - Re: brake O ring (mau11)
    11. 02:10 PM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
    12. 03:52 PM - Battery location (Alex Kaarsberg)
    13. 04:37 PM - Re: Battery location (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
    14. 05:29 PM - Re: Battery location (Bob Harrison)
    15. 10:29 PM - Battery location(s), etc. (Fred Klein)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:29:53 AM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: starter battery - LiFePO4
    Craig,=0Ayou're right. moving the battery forward would require roughly hal f it's weight in the tail to compensate.=0AYou save the weight of the cable s too. -You need to consider keeping the battery cool if it's in the engi ne bay though.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: c raig <craigb@onthenet.com.au>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Satu rday, 28 April 2012, 0:04=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: starter battery - LiF ePO4=0A =0A=0A =0APhilip=0A-=0AYou mentioned the issues of weight and bal ance, for not using=0Athe LiFePo battery, assuming you had the battery in t he rear=0AAs per most builds, was the option of another half kilo of ballas t=0Anear the tail considered, if so and you opted not to proceed=0ACould yo u explain why. Given the weight saving would still be=0Aabout 6kg, it would seem worthwhile to pursue=0A-=0ACraig----- ------


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:15:39 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: starter battery - LiFePO4
    From: "europapa" <experimental@online.de>
    Hi, I bought this battery: http://www.aeroakku.com/product_info.php/info/p503_AEROAKKU-LFP-12-5-5.html The seller ( not the one in the link ) told me that they have tree ultra lights in their airclub with this battery installed and they work fine. The specific electronic should be installed in the battery so they could be swiched with the lead batteries. Juergen Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371977#371977


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:50:42 AM PST US
    From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
    Subject: Re: starter battery - LiFePO4
    Craig & Graham, Right from the start I planned to have my battery in the engine compartment, and it has worked very well. It sits on top of the passenger footwell with a one inch retaining wall around its bottom end and fixed with a nylon strap from the firewall over the top and down. that is a much simpler and lighter mounting than any I have seen in the rear. I have an Oddyssey 17 amp hr battery which has had more than enough welly to start the engine instantly even after a 3/12 break in the winter. I made no provision for cooling and it doesn't seem to have noticed. As to weight and balance I have a mono XS, 914 and a Woodcomp SR 3000 W wobbly prop and a very well equipped panel (although much of this electronic rather than steam age!), so my plane might be expected to be nose heavy. I calculated what I thought was the optimum position for the Ready for Service C of G as what would allow any combination of pilot/s, fuel & luggage and came up with the figure of 59 ins or thereabouts (but the precise figure will depend on the base weight of the plane but I guess the optimum will be very close to this) To achieve that precise CoG position I found I needed a small, 3 lb block of lead bolted to the front of the tail bulkhead (accessed conveniently through the trim slots). I suspect I had saved most or all of 3lbs in longer cables and more elaborate mounting & fixing of a rear battery. My advice would be to assume this is wha.t you will do with the battery and only shift it to the much more inconvenient rear position if your plane turns out to be unexpectedly tail heavy. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 09:28:37 +0100 (BST) GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > Craig, > you're right. moving the battery forward would require >roughly half it's weight in the tail to compensate. > You save the weight of the cables too. You need to >consider keeping the battery cool if it's in the engine >bay though. > Graham > > > ________________________________ > From: craig <craigb@onthenet.com.au> > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, 28 April 2012, 0:04 > Subject: RE: Europa-List: starter battery - LiFePO4 > > > > Philip > > You mentioned the issues of weight and balance, for not >using > the LiFePo battery, assuming you had the battery in the >rear > As per most builds, was the option of another half kilo >of ballast > near the tail considered, if so and you opted not to >proceed > Could you explain why. Given the weight saving would >still be > about 6kg, it would seem worthwhile to pursue > > Craig


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:33:19 AM PST US
    Subject: brake O ring
    From: "egp8111" <egp8111@aol.com>
    Anyone have a part number or source for the O ring on the monowheel brake puck ? thanks, Skip Pate monowheel A009 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371984#371984


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:55:34 AM PST US
    From: Philip Levi <pjlevi@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: starter battery - LiFePO4
    Craig My battery is indeed in the rear. The possibility of adding weight to the tail was considered, but the amount required was such that the net weight saving by changing the battery would not be all that significant. It is a relatively light aircraft as Europas go with a 912 UL engine but with an Airmaster AP332 VP propeller and the nose near the forward CG limit. I also understand that adding significant weight to the tail can increase the propensity to ground loop. Philip. G-BWWB Europa Monowheel Classic * * On 28 April 2012 12:49, David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote: > davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> > > > Craig & Graham, Right from the start I planned to have my battery in the > engine compartment, and it has worked very well. It sits on top of the > passenger footwell with a one inch retaining wall around its bottom end and > fixed with a nylon strap from the firewall over the top and down. that is a > much simpler and lighter mounting than any I have seen in the rear. I have > an Oddyssey 17 amp hr battery which has had more than enough welly to start > the engine instantly even after a 3/12 break in the winter. I made no > provision for cooling and it doesn't seem to have noticed. > As to weight and balance I have a mono XS, 914 and a Woodcomp SR > 3000 W wobbly prop and a very well equipped panel (although much of this > electronic rather than steam age!), so my plane might be expected to be > nose heavy. I calculated what I thought was the optimum position for the > Ready for Service C of G as what would allow any combination of pilot/s, > fuel & luggage and came up with the figure of 59 ins or thereabouts (but > the precise figure will depend on the base weight of the plane but I guess > the optimum will be very close to this) To achieve that precise CoG > position I found I needed a small, 3 lb block of lead bolted to the front > of the tail bulkhead (accessed conveniently through the trim slots). I > suspect I had saved most or all of 3lbs in longer cables and more elaborate > mounting & fixing of a rear battery. My advice would be to assume this is > wha.t you will do with the battery and only shift it to the much more > inconvenient rear position if your plane turns out to be unexpectedly tail > heavy. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 09:28:37 +0100 (BST) > GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.**com<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>> > wrote: > >> Craig, >> you're right. moving the battery forward would require roughly half it's >> weight in the tail to compensate. >> You save the weight of the cables too. You need to consider keeping the >> battery cool if it's in the engine bay though. >> Graham >> >> >> ______________________________**__ >> From: craig <craigb@onthenet.com.au> >> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 28 April 2012, 0:04 >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: starter battery - LiFePO4 >> >> >> >> Philip >> >> You mentioned the issues of weight and balance, for not using >> the LiFePo battery, assuming you had the battery in the rear >> As per most builds, was the option of another half kilo of ballast >> near the tail considered, if so and you opted not to proceed >> Could you explain why. Given the weight saving would still be >> about 6kg, it would seem worthwhile to pursue >> >> Craig >> > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:24:08 AM PST US
    From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
    Subject: Re: starter battery - LiFePO4
    I believe that a 12 V LiFePO4 battery is quite safe if used with care. It does not have a thermal runaway mode, but will burn, not explode, if mistreated to an internal temperature of about 800 C (well above the melting point of aluminium). By the way, LiFePO4 is not for low temperatures; one example increases internal resistance (4 mOhm) below 10 C as follows: 20 mOhm at 0 C, 40 mOhm at -10 C etc. How I intend to use with care: 1. Charge with a CC/CV regime, just like a lead-acid battery. CC: small alternator, charging current guaranteed less than 2C CV: maximum charging voltage 14.5 V; less is ok but the maximum SOC will be less than 100% 2. Cell balancing is much slower and worse than with a lead-acid battery (because a fully charged cell largely stops passing current). Mitigation: - long stays at CV interrupted by shallow discharges - normal starter battery use actually - apply an external shunt (3.70 V) across each cell to speed up balancing if/when needed Monitor: - all cell voltages must remain below 4.00 V; remedy: stop charging 3. Replace if ever discharged to below 20% SOC Monitor: - battery voltage must remain > 12.8 V; remedy: if needed carry on discharging, but do not recharge, replace 4. Have 2 I designed a "monitor & top equalizer" for attachment to a Shorai LiFePO4 battery. It has just two indications: 1. a cell has a shunt operating, 2. a cell has a shunt operating but even so its voltage exceeds 4.00 V. According to the battery suppliers no equalizing or monitoring is needed - which may be right ofcourse. Neither of the indications may ever show. On the other hand - they do sell balancing chargers... Attached a typical charge curve for a LiFePO4 cell (author unknown). See the current drop when a SOC of 100% is approached. Jan de Jong


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:56:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: starter battery - LiFePO4
    From: david park <dpark748@hotmail.co.uk>
    Recently seen a thermal run away on a seneca where battery is in the nose. Glad i was not in the air with it.!!!!!! Sent from my iPhone On 28 Apr 2012, at 16:35, "Jan de Jong" <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote: > > I believe that a 12 V LiFePO4 battery is quite safe if used with care. > It does not have a thermal runaway mode, but will burn, not explode, if mistreated to an internal temperature of about 800 C (well above the melting point of aluminium). > By the way, LiFePO4 is not for low temperatures; one example increases internal resistance (4 mOhm) below 10 C as follows: 20 mOhm at 0 C, 40 mOhm at -10 C etc. > > How I intend to use with care: > > 1. Charge with a CC/CV regime, just like a lead-acid battery. > CC: small alternator, charging current guaranteed less than 2C > CV: maximum charging voltage 14.5 V; less is ok but the maximum SOC will be less than 100% > > 2. Cell balancing is much slower and worse than with a lead-acid battery (because a fully charged cell largely stops passing current). > Mitigation: > - long stays at CV interrupted by shallow discharges - normal starter battery use actually > - apply an external shunt (3.70 V) across each cell to speed up balancing if/when needed > Monitor: > - all cell voltages must remain below 4.00 V; remedy: stop charging > > 3. Replace if ever discharged to below 20% SOC > Monitor: > - battery voltage must remain > 12.8 V; remedy: if needed carry on discharging, but do not recharge, replace > > 4. Have 2 > > I designed a "monitor & top equalizer" for attachment to a Shorai LiFePO4 battery. It has just two indications: 1. a cell has a shunt operating, 2. a cell has a shunt operating but even so its voltage exceeds 4.00 V. > According to the battery suppliers no equalizing or monitoring is needed - which may be right ofcourse. Neither of the indications may ever show. On the other hand - they do sell balancing chargers... > > Attached a typical charge curve for a LiFePO4 cell (author unknown). See the current drop when a SOC of 100% is approached. > > Jan de Jong > > > > > > <40138chargeprofile.jpg>


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:07:19 AM PST US
    From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
    Subject: brake O ring
    Skip Europa has these and postage should be no problem. Bud may also have some. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:44:01 AM PST US
    From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
    Subject: Re: starter battery - LiFePO4
    Probably a LiMnO2 battery. Not safe indeed. Jan de Jong On 4/28/2012 5:52 PM, david park wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: david park<dpark748@hotmail.co.uk> > > Recently seen a thermal run away on a seneca where battery is in the nose. Glad i was not in the air with it.!!!!!! > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 28 Apr 2012, at 16:35, "Jan de Jong"<jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote: > >> I believe that a 12 V LiFePO4 battery is quite safe if used with care. >> It does not have a thermal runaway mode, but will burn, not explode, if mistreated to an internal temperature of about 800 C (well above the melting point of aluminium). >> By the way, LiFePO4 is not for low temperatures; one example increases internal resistance (4 mOhm) below 10 C as follows: 20 mOhm at 0 C, 40 mOhm at -10 C etc. >> >> How I intend to use with care: >> >> 1. Charge with a CC/CV regime, just like a lead-acid battery. >> CC: small alternator, charging current guaranteed less than 2C >> CV: maximum charging voltage 14.5 V; less is ok but the maximum SOC will be less than 100% >> >> 2. Cell balancing is much slower and worse than with a lead-acid battery (because a fully charged cell largely stops passing current). >> Mitigation: >> - long stays at CV interrupted by shallow discharges - normal starter battery use actually >> - apply an external shunt (3.70 V) across each cell to speed up balancing if/when needed >> Monitor: >> - all cell voltages must remain below 4.00 V; remedy: stop charging >> >> 3. Replace if ever discharged to below 20% SOC >> Monitor: >> - battery voltage must remain> 12.8 V; remedy: if needed carry on discharging, but do not recharge, replace >> >> 4. Have 2 >> >> I designed a "monitor& top equalizer" for attachment to a Shorai LiFePO4 battery. It has just two indications: 1. a cell has a shunt operating, 2. a cell has a shunt operating but even so its voltage exceeds 4.00 V. >> According to the battery suppliers no equalizing or monitoring is needed - which may be right ofcourse. Neither of the indications may ever show. On the other hand - they do sell balancing chargers... >> >> Attached a typical charge curve for a LiFePO4 cell (author unknown). See the current drop when a SOC of 100% is approached. >> >> Jan de Jong >> >> >> >> >> >> <40138chargeprofile.jpg> > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 10:40:39 AM PST US
    From: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr>
    Subject: Re: brake O ring
    X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 26 [cn] The brake is produced by Kartcomponents in england. Follow this thread http://www.kartcomponents.com/ Michel AUVRAY


    Message 11


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    Time: 02:10:02 PM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: starter battery - LiFePO4
    David,-=0AI suspect you meant to say "unexpectedly nose heavy" ?=0Aregard s=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: David Joyce <d avidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday , 28 April 2012, 12:49=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: starter battery - LiFePO s.org.uk>=0A=0A=0ACraig & Graham, Right from the start I planned to have my battery in the engine compartment, and it has worked very well. It sits on top of the passenger footwell with a one inch retaining wall around its bo ttom end and fixed with a nylon strap from the firewall over the top and do wn. that is a much simpler and lighter mounting than any I have seen in the rear. I have an Oddyssey 17 amp hr battery which has had more than enough welly to start the engine instantly even after a 3/12 break in the winter. I made no provision for cooling and it doesn't seem to have noticed.=0A- - - - - As to weight and balance I have a mono XS, 914 and a Woodc omp SR 3000 W wobbly prop and a very well equipped panel (although much of this electronic rather than steam age!), so my plane might be expected to b e nose heavy. I calculated what I thought was the optimum position for the Ready for Service C of G as what would allow any combination of pilot/s, fu el & luggage and came up with the figure of 59 ins or thereabouts (but the precise figure will depend on the base weight of the plane but I guess the optimum will be very close to this) To achieve that precise CoG position I found I needed a small, 3 lb block of lead bolted to the front of the tail bulkhead (accessed conveniently through the trim slots). I suspect I had sa ved most or all of 3lbs in longer cables and more elaborate mounting & fixi ng of a rear battery. My advice would be to assume this- is wha.t you wil l do with the battery and only shift it to the much more inconvenient rear position if your plane turns out to be unexpectedly tail heavy.=0AReg ards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A=0AOn Sat, 28 Apr 2012 09:28:37 +0100 (BST)=0AG RAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A> Craig,=0A> you' re right. moving the battery forward would require roughly half it's weight in the tail to compensate.=0A> You save the weight of the cables too. -Y ou need to consider keeping the battery cool if it's in the engine bay thou gh.=0A> Graham=0A> =0A> =0A> ________________________________=0A> From: cra ig <craigb@onthenet.com.au>=0A> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturda y, 28 April 2012, 0:04=0A> Subject: RE: Europa-List: starter battery - LiFe PO4=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Philip=0A> -=0A> You mentioned the issues of weigh t and balance, for not using=0A> the LiFePo battery, assuming you had the b attery in the rear=0A> As per most builds, was the option of another half k ilo of ballast=0A> near the tail considered, if so and you opted not to pro ceed=0A> Could you explain why. Given the weight saving would still be=0A> about 6kg, it would seem worthwhile to pursue=0A> -=0A> Craig---- ========================


    Message 12


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    Time: 03:52:17 PM PST US
    From: "Alex Kaarsberg" <kaarsberg@terra.com.br>
    Subject: Battery location
    All, Not having had much opportunity to play with my building for too many years, I have for a long time played with the idea of having a battery installed in the tunnel (trigear of course) in some kind of movable fixture allowing to use it as a way of adjusting the CG. If not in flight, then at least on the ground. Any thought or comment would be most welcome... Alex, kit 529.


    Message 13


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    Time: 04:37:45 PM PST US
    From: jimpuglise@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Battery location
    Alex- You would have the weight of extra wire that may not be necessary. Best plan is to look at your weight and balance when you get to that point and move the battery to where you need it most. In my case, had to move it to the aft baggage bay. The tail is long enough that you can accomplish a lot with a little weight due to the long arm, so it is easiest to attack it that way. One of the things yo may want to do is install your tail tie down and leave plenty of thread on top of it to fasten a diving weight to if it is necessary. A moveable battery would probably be more trouble than it was worth. Once your airplane is set up, it should not be necessary to adjust the CG, so why go to the trouble of preparing for it? Jim Puglise XS - Jabiru 3300 Punta Gorda, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Kaarsberg" <kaarsberg@terra.com.br> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 6:50:35 PM Subject: Europa-List: Battery location All, Not having had much opportunity to play with my building for too many years, I have for a long time played with the idea of having a battery installed in the tunnel (trigear of course) in some kind of movable fixture allowing to use it as a way of adjusting the CG. If not in flight, then at least on the ground. Any thought or comment would be most welcome... Alex, kit 529.


    Message 14


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    Time: 05:29:37 PM PST US
    From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@talktalk.net>
    Subject: Battery location
    Hi! Alex. I used to have a Jabiru 3300 six cylinder engine with a very heavy MT CS Prop(32 lbs) and the pair of Odyssey 13 amp hour batteries wouldn't start it placed in the rear under the luggage bay . Moved them both above the passenger firewall forward foot well with never a problem in over 10 years in fact I replaced them last year since I took fright that they may be likely to let me down. Since then they have stood in my garage and retained their charge so I would guarantee that either singularly would still start my Rotax 914 without re-charging them now.. No disrespect to you intended, but David Joyce put his "head over the parapet" and gave the same good advice. Why do you folks keep ignoring that advice and keep trying to re-invent the wheel ? If you need to adjust the C of G of your "bird" then put a 9 gallon long range tank behind the seats.! Hope this comment suits you ? Best regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Kit 337 From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alex Kaarsberg Sent: 28 April 2012 23:51 Subject: Europa-List: Battery location All, Not having had much opportunity to play with my building for too many years, I have for a long time played with the idea of having a battery installed in the tunnel (trigear of course) in some kind of movable fixture allowing to use it as a way of adjusting the CG. If not in flight, then at least on the ground. Any thought or comment would be most welcome... Alex, kit 529.


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:29:11 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Battery location(s), etc.
    All, I for one very much appreciate the open discussion (with no put-downs) which characterizes so many of our conversations. I'm particularly interested in the range of different solutions which various posters have found, as well as the problems encountered. I find it all very informative and quite useful as I sort thru the various considerations to evaluate as I seek solutions to so many aspects of the build. With a non-standard engine which is not supported by the factory or a network of dealers, and an airframe which includes a number of unique features, I'm especially grateful for the posters who have real expertise and their willingness to share it. Our current thread on batteries, and the recent one on fuel return lines have been very helpful to me. Fred




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